AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Buckingham on March 26, 2013, 03:54:26 AM
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... I just wanted to thank all of you who build these magnificent instruments.
I recently purchased my first flintlock rifle (a custom rifle built in the 1970s based on a Hawken design) and I am now studying to purchase my first Long Rifle. This is the culmination of years of wanting this type of rifle, so my intention is to read and learn what I can at this fantastic forum, and grow my knowledge and appreciation of the art and science which so many of you promulgate.
Thank you who build these for doing what you do.
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Welcome to the fold Buckingham. Enjoy the ride.
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... I just wanted to thank all of you who build these magnificent instruments.
I recently purchased my first flintlock rifle (a custom rifle built in the 1970s based on a Hawken design) and I am now studying to purchase my first Long Rifle. This is the culmination of years of wanting this type of rifle, so my intention is to read and learn what I can at this fantastic forum, and grow my knowledge and appreciation of the art and science which so many of you promulgate.
Thank you who build these for doing what you do.
Have any pictures of the Hawken style???
Dan
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Welcome Buckingham;
What period and style of long rifle are you looking to purchase?
dave
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Here is a full length picture of the Hawken-style rifle that I recently purchased:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv726%2Fjkayatin%2FIMG_20130320_134836.jpg&hash=c691e341b18ebc9aec0446fc0e7a08c8fb2f2fe4)
Additionally I am including a close-up of the actual lock (which I was told was made by Bob Roller back in the 1970s):
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv726%2Fjkayatin%2FImage5712a.jpg&hash=b92c696e7fb57b90f756de501353e6029d96e762)
I am very much interested in a Pennsylvania Rifle as the next acquisition, specifically either an early Lancaster or Lehigh example. I plan to buy from one of the acknowledged Masters, and my tastes gravitate towards a plain, unadorned shooter (Schimmel) with a long (48" plus) barrel - this reflects my admiration for the lines and overall form of the artists' work in crafting these elegant pieces of technology. The current photo of the Lehigh Schimmel on Allen Martin's website is the desktop background photo on this particular computer I am using, so I hope that serves to highlight my current thinking for my next rifle!
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Buckingham,
That lock and trigger are both my make.The gun was apparently made by someone who
knew what he was doing. That lock is another variant of Ketland. These locks were made
by me when a "Flint Hawken"idea became popular. The lock was not popular because of
my insisting on being paid for the time it takes to make this labor intensive item and most
of them went to Switzerland and Germany. I have no plans to revive it.
Thank you for posting this close up picture.
Bob Roller
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Thank you Bob for sharing that information - I am happy to learn that this is one of your lock and trigger sets!
The information given to me by the previous owner is that the gun was built by a gentleman named Dennis Scott who was a contributor to a now-defunct magazine called 'The Buckskin Report.'
I was also able to confirm through Internet-based research that the barrel markings indicate that it was made by William Large. The barrel is 36" long and .54 caliber.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv726%2Fjkayatin%2FIMG_20130322_105410.jpg&hash=cfbde3b0b88cc30b031272a3d83bbefb34b2d673)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv726%2Fjkayatin%2FIMG_20130322_105423.jpg&hash=150568a8748eaa4fd03cb4a68d6ccb131a2e0392)
Again, I am very grateful that you were able to make the time to tell me more about this rifle of mine - I am proud to have it and plan to shoot a lot of patched balls down range!
- Justin
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Buckingham,
I am thinking perhaps Doug Scott but then I could be wrong.
I remember making a few of these odd Ketlands for him years ago.
Enjoy your rifle,it is a fine looking one made from above average parts
by an above average maker.
Bob Roller
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The wood finish is similar in color to the brown linseed oil varnish found on many rifles with straight grained stocks.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FDSC03006-1.jpg&hash=44f8f5a767c5acba65528780c276a741aafbbfe3)
Would like to know how it was made.
Dan
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Buck, you have excellent taste in rifles, a Bill Large barrel and a Bob Roller lock and triggers, excellent stuff!! For a Pennsylvania rifle also ask for a Don Getz swamped barrel.
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Buck, you have excellent taste in rifles, a Bill Large barrel and a Bob Roller lock and triggers, excellent stuff!! For a Pennsylvania rifle also ask for a Don Getz swamped barrel.
I would attribute this to Divine intervention and luck rather than my own good taste - it turns out that the previous owner was indeed an honest man who represented the rifle, and the quality of its components, fairly and correctly, so I am grateful for that!
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WOW....You have what I consider to be the most desirable rifle to be found. Others may disagree but it really looks great to me. My knowledge is limited but I believe that Bill Large was the premier barrel maker of his time. I think that it is a late barrel, maybe from the late 70's. The J.J.J.J. was a mark used on the later barrels and I think that the L was for radius groove or special rifling treatment (Bob Roller would know). The lock and trigger by Roller are simply the best made...I think, ever. These are the best parts made and appear to be well assembled. Please do not ever change the finish, (patina) as that look is really great. You have what I think is the "holy grail " of ML rifle finds. Treasure this rifle as it represents the best years of our sport.
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Oldarcher,
Many thanks for the kind remarks about my locks and triggers on that
Hawken representation.You're right about the barrel,it more than likely
has concaved lands and if in good condition it should perform with or surpass
the best we have today.I made few of those locks for the American market
(or lack thereof)and I think I used the last set of external parts for my own rifle
about 8 years ago.This style of lock is not the best looking one but it would produce
extreme fire and roll it across a floor but most didn't want it and the ones that did
usually spoke German and a little English.
Thanks again for the positive comments.
Bob Roller
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Hello Bob
I have to say I really like the style of that lock...it looks simply fantastic! And I guess I fit in the discribed client group for such a lock...I am German, living in Southern Bavaria not too far from Switzerland where I have good friends... ;)
thanks a lot
Uwe
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Welcome to the wonderful world of BP. This is the place to learn. There are so many knowledgeable folks here. Just listen and don't be afraid to ask questions. I seldom post but I'm on this forum 3-4 times a day soaking up as much info as I can.
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Looks to me like someone hit the lotto!! Bob Roller lock an triggers an a Bill large Barrel! I'm just amazed you were able to find it. An Mr. Roller do not sell yourself short, that is a fine looking lock an I wish I had one.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk255%2Fszihn%2FAmerican%2520guns%2FZihnMuzzleloadersMay31008-1.jpg&hash=aa41203ca8f4dc14d58c3ac06ba3ec9fa7b48cc9) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/szihn/media/American%20guns/ZihnMuzzleloadersMay31008-1.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk255%2Fszihn%2FAmerican%2520guns%2FZihnMuzzleloadersMay31009-1.jpg&hash=d9e977b983c61272d585cb485e260d1550111e46) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/szihn/media/American%20guns/ZihnMuzzleloadersMay31009-1.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk255%2Fszihn%2FAmerican%2520guns%2F100_1479.jpg&hash=24e9e7cec68d556cc6827a6e36616b40369911c6) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/szihn/media/American%20guns/100_1479.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk255%2Fszihn%2FAmerican%2520guns%2F100_1483.jpg&hash=a6b431fa62aa32250a987c38aaecc87598491dd9) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/szihn/media/American%20guns/100_1483.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk255%2Fszihn%2FAmerican%2520guns%2FMVC-007F.jpg&hash=7bfe59229e6644303f836c07084c3df23d7e7c48) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/szihn/media/American%20guns/MVC-007F.jpg.html)
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I am sure that is Dougs stamp. Bob might not be correct about the design of the rifling. Doug always ordered the style Bob described but For reasons of his own, Bill sent the conventional style to him 9 out of 10 times.
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Look at the muzzle.The concaved lands stand out like a goose egg in a coal pile.
Bob Roller
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I visit with Doug Scott at most Friendship Spring & Fall shoots! He seemed to be doing well the last time I saw him! He is very knowledgeable in the muzzleloading world!! I believe he made some guns for the Hawken shop back circa 1980's Good OL boy!!
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Thank you for the information on the rifling - this is the best image I could get of the muzzle using my smartphone:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv726%2Fjkayatin%2FBore.jpg&hash=7491d432abc6fc1e3cc78ce4519cbffc8890096b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jkayatin/media/Bore.jpg.html)
The lands do not appear to be concave.
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Thank you for the information on the rifling - this is the best image I could get of the muzzle using my smartphone:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv726%2Fjkayatin%2FBore.jpg&hash=7491d432abc6fc1e3cc78ce4519cbffc8890096b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jkayatin/media/Bore.jpg.html)
The lands do not appear to be concave.
That is unusual.The lock will be dated and my logo was Roller in a semi circle
and the year inside the name.After 1989 I used "USA" instead of the year.
Bob Roller
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Thank you Bob for the information. The following image apparently dates the lock to 1978
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv726%2Fjkayatin%2FLock%2520Internal.jpg&hash=cd4931b76f44e4d2af2a292a42f879c8dbf7da4f) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jkayatin/media/Lock%20Internal.jpg.html)
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Large was famous for sending people what he wanted instead of what they ordered.
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Large was famous for sending people what he wanted instead of what they ordered.
There were a number of objections to unwanted names and other
remarks on Bill's barrels.I never figured out why he did it or why
he made it a practice of hitting a newly made stock against a big
bench vise every time he was shown a new gun.No damage but it
was a quirk that I thought was weird to say the least.
Bob Roller
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I have several Bill Large barrels that are marked with a "L" on the bottom face of the barrel at the muzzle. Maybe I got bad information but I was told that it indicated that Bill himself had done the rifleing, or re cutting, on that barrel.
Mark
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It's an interesting "revival" gun that is pretty well done. Certainly nothing wrong with a gun from the late 70's with a Large barrel and a roller lock with good archetecture.....not that I know anything about Hawken archetecture.... ;)
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Large was famous for sending people what he wanted instead of what they ordered.
I never figured out why he did it or why
he made it a practice of hitting a newly made stock against a big
bench vise every time he was shown a new gun.No damage but it
was a quirk that I thought was weird to say the least.
Bob Roller
That is a beautiful gun I wish I could carry that around...you sure made some nice locks and triggers Bob. They just don't make em like that anymore...
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Large was famous for sending people what he wanted instead of what they ordered.
I never figured out why he did it or why
he made it a practice of hitting a newly made stock against a big
bench vise every time he was shown a new gun.No damage but it
was a quirk that I thought was weird to say the least.
Bob Roller
That is a beautiful gun I wish I could carry that around...you sure made some nice locks and triggers Bob. They just don't make em like that anymore...
Thanks for the nice comment on my locks and triggers.I am currently trying to finish work that
has been here too long and am not taking any more orders,Whether or not I will continue to do
this type of work is not certain.I still have some material on hand but am not excited about doing
much with it.
Bob Roller
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Mr. Roller,
The comment about Bill Large stamping names on barrels struck home with me! I had a friend in the 70's by the name of Clyde Ramey (called himself Little Turtle). Clyde had a very nicely made Southern Mountain Rifle that had a Bill Large barrel on it. When Clyde ordered the barrel, he had told Bill that he wanted a 46 inch .45 caliber barrel as light a contour as Bill thought safe. Clyde waited several years for the barrel and when he finally got it, Bill had stamped it "OLD WIDOWS DREAM" on the top flat. Clyde loved the rifle, but hated the stamp enough he was hesitant to show the gun to anyone. Clyde died in the late 70' and I haven't thought about it in many decades. Thank You. :)
Tom W.
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Beautiful rifle Buckingham!! Have fun and be safe!!.... Mick C