AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Shreckmeister on April 04, 2013, 08:29:51 PM
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For those of you who haven't seen it "The most beautiful rifle in the world" is for sale on gunbroker
Description for Item # 335357144 :D
PS I probably shouldn't have done this but.....
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Not only the most beautiful Kentucky lancaster ever, but it is PERFECT in every way AND comes complete with a Bud Silo lock. Does it get any better?
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Not only the most beautiful Kentucky lancaster ever, but it is PERFECT in every way AND comes complete with a Bud Silo lock. Does it get any better?
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble, when your perfect in every way, can't wait to look in the mirror,
I get better lookin each day. :P
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Hey, the turkey has a nice beard!
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"THIS IS NO DOUBT THE MOST BEAUTIFUL RIFLE IN THE WORLD", "BUT THIS RIFLE IS BEST OF BEST", "PERFECT BORE", "PERFECT WOOD TO METAL FIT", " PERFECT BRASS IN LAYS", "PERFECT ADJUSTABLE SET" ,"PERFECT FIT", "PERFECT ACTION AND TIMING","AND GOD GAVE GIFTS TO MAN".....etc....
I guess this is a "PERFECT" rifle made from a "PERFECT"" human being, and humble too.....LMAO??????
Good Grief!...LOL
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Enh!
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The guy that is selling the rifle is not the maker.........he is just exploiting another man's work. The guy is only trying to make a buck and if he could sell somebody a bridge he would.
The maker is a fellow named Milo Bragg and he is an experienced and good craftsman who has built numerous rifles. He also does sandcastings of original antique capboxes, guards and butplates. Milo is also very, very humble and would never elaborate on himself to this degree. He lives in a small town in Northern Ohio, close to Toledo and should you ever come across one of his rifles you would be amazed at the fit and finish, he does an exceptional job.
Poke fun at the seller, but the maker shouldn't receive these sort of jabs.......
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Absolutely wasn't intended to disparage the gunmaker. Just making fun of this snake oil saleman.
The inletting on the rifle is extremely well done in fact it looks like a very nice rifle overall. I just
got a chuckle out of the desription. It is...over the top.
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In looking at ALL the pictures, and I can't fault the seller for stinting on those, I'd say that he was ALMOST correct.
This is a beautiful rifle and the fit is exceptionally nice! But like others, I think the seller was more than a bit over the top.
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Ok I give up, how do I search for this on GB because I entered this ID# and is says 0 matches. I have just GOT to see this ;)
Darrin
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=335357144
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$3500 and he wants you to toss in $38 for shipping too? What a deal.
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Well I gave the rifle a look, instead of the glance I gave it before - it is well made, inlay work quite good. If I were to pick on it I would remark on the the trigger guard which seems chunky to my eye. The rifle would have sold its self... ;)
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I agree that the sales pitch isn't needed. It looks to be a well made rifle. NOT $3000 dollars worth but well made.
That listing on the other hand should be taken out behind the garage and beaten with a knotted rope.
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I agree that the sales pitch isn't needed. It looks to be a well made rifle. NOT $3000 dollars worth but well made.
That listing on the other hand should be taken out behind the garage and beaten with a knotted rope.
That's the way I saw it, but wanted to keep it on the family level! Kick him in the ribs also!
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A much lower opening bid would have gone a long way toward selling that gun.
Honestly, $3500 is all the money in that one and then some.
John
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I sure hope that if, and when, they sell this gun, they will give the buyers name, address, and phone number. I have some
neat rifles and other things that will just blow him away, including a bridge...........Don
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This is definately a nice rifle.As I pride myself on bein a serious bs'er,and most of my friends will agree,this fellow hawkin this gun has me beat by a longgggggggggggway!lol.I have a similar rifle ,built by Joe Gillispie,of Kingwood ,Wva,ca 1980,that is equal to the work here,and priced wayyyyyyyyy less.It is on Gunsinternational.com.Dave
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For those of you who haven't seen it "The most beautiful rifle in the world" is for sale on gunbroker
Description for Item # 335357144 :D
PS I probably shouldn't have done this but.....
That was well worth the look and read. This guy puts a Carny caller to shame. Nice rifle, not $3500 nice though and it has two big flaws. Lock is on the wrong side and it is percussion. :-)
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The rifle is still there after a year but the buy it now price has dropped to $1995.00! Guess nit nwas a tad overpriced and maybe still is!
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There's a Jud Brennan rifle for sale on CLA for a mere $35,000. Interesting write-up there too.
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I have seen both guns and it gives rise to a question I have had since day one of my interest. The first question I had of a mentor was what makes this gun worth $1000 and that one worth $3000. As he pointed out features it all came down to condition and quality of the build as to the ones I was looking at. Both were "older" comtemporary guns. The differences were pretty obvious but I wanted to know if there was more. I can also see value added for the degree of features added. Silver "wire", extensive brass, detailed carving, etc.
But I still see a vast spread of prices on contemporary guns which appear on the surface to be very similar in finished quality. And I also understand the reputation of the builder factors in but I have seen photos of guns for $3000 to $5000 which look "as good as" a Brennan gun at $35,000. Is the Brennan name worth $30,000?. Is any name worth $30,000? It also seems that gun values are sort of like car values. Highest prices when purchased from the maker or otherwise "new". THAT, I understand. A gun which takes 150 hours to complete cannot match the gun taking 300 hours to complete so the valuation is in the labor and features added by the labor when buying from the original maker. So if you assume the gun remains unfired and the condition remains "excellent or perfect"? will the price in future sales remain consistant or maybe only adjusted by economic conditions....or the death of the maker! COMMENTS???
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You have kinda answered your own question.
If "someone" thinks a name is worth 30K then it is.
It's no different with originals. On the Julia site right now there is a number of rifles listed.
Why is an "outstanding" rifle by M. Fordney only estimated at 18-22K when the "best" Armstrong is estimated at 90-150K (and if the last auction is an indicator it will top the 200K mark).
Is "Armstrong" worth 7 to 10X "Fordney".
The obvious answer is YES, because enough people believe it to be true.
Does it make sense from a logical point of view, probably not. Is the Armstrong rifle built better/stronger/faster than the Fordney - maybe yes, maybe no, maybe they are technically/artistically identical if you were comparing specific points of comparison.
You or I could build a rifle and it may be every bit as good/pretty/well inlet etc and have exactly the same parts as one of the noted builders (including more than a few on this site).
But will "Bob Generalpublic" be willing to drop 3K, 4K, 5K on one of "our" rifles when he can get one from a "reconized/sought after builder" for exactly the same asking price?
The same reason why a W. Large barrel commands a premium today. You could well argue that most of the offerings today are "superior", yet if one of Bill's barrels comes up for sale it will usually sell for somewhat more than any from the contemporary makers today.
Why? because there is a little more status/desirability/mystique to having a rifle with a Large barrel compared to say a Colerain or GM.
If you are looking for an answer that will withstand some sort of "scientific method" you will not find one, because "want" and "makes sense" do not "overlap".
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Well, after all is said & done, I would still have to give that seller my business card. It reads:
"My card, sir. I am somewhat of a BS'er myself but occasionally I like to listen to a PROFESSIONAL. Please carry on". ;D ;D ::)
CW
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Brooktrout,
You said "but I have seen photos of guns for $3000 to $5000 which look "as good as" a Brennan gun at $35,000. Is the Brennan name worth $30,000?. Is any name worth $30,000? " My experience is
that rifles cannot be judged by photographs, no matter how good the photos are. If you were to hold the two rifles side by side, you would see and feel a vast difference between them. You really need to
handle hundreds of originals and contemporaries before you can appreciate the nuances and the
workmanship. Brennan's work is not appreciated for his name. He is a master gunbuilder who
executes beautiful rifles. If the $3-$5K rifle were as good, he would be The Guy with the name.
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OK, nothing so far that is a great discovery here but I would definitely divide the topic into "antiques" and "contemporary" and I completely understand some of the values associated with antiques. But I do not agree that just because one believes a gun is worth $30k then it is indeed worth 30k. Now that opinion weakens greatly when the believer shells out his 30k. And while that may fit his sense of value it does not necessarily fit the larger market's sense of value. Confusing??? So let me go in a slightly different direction. The Allen Sandy spoken of in another thread (S X S). If the one I actually saw was the same one pictured, and it may not have been, what would the guess be of the asking price? I hold the opinion that the gun was purchased from Sandy and was back in his hands to use as a display of his skills AND to see if he could find a buyer. That gun was as nice as any I have seen and I know what the asking price is/was. Anyone care to venture a guess? OR maybe estimate what it sold for "new"?
Certainly getting up close and personal is better than photo but given the short time I have had this interest I have not had much opportunity to see that many super high quality guns "in person" but I will make an observation on what I consider "high end contemporaries". Some I have seen are incredible works of art no question about it. But they reach a point where the gun is left in the dust and the "ART" predominates. Is there a point where the value of a gun hits the wall but the value of the art goes on? I think there is. Maybe I am looking for to much of a scientific explanation!
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Brooktrout, you clearly know what is going on. The value of the art IS going on whether it be antique or contemporary.
I have no idea why anyone would pay more than $5 for an Andy Warhol, but apparently others feel differently. No difference here. I know a lot of guys who like to gamble, on sports, games, horses etc. I think contemporary collectors are playing that game. In a sense, trying to pick the next big winner.
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The definition of "worth" is determined by a willing seller and CERTAINLY by a willing BUYER.
Bob Roller
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Shreckmeister: Agree. And actually, I never thought of those who speculate on guns being a part of the picture. I'm sure it does happen and I'm sure it is a very big factor in prices. Appreciate the opportunity to hear from the experts.
Bob: I also understand that as well. In a recent discussion of value I invited members to offer an opinion. Cannot recall who said it but one reply was "whatever you can get or have to pay for it". Probably the best answer I got because others placed the value from just under $1000 all the way to $8000 and several levels in between. That's quite a variance! And subsequently an "expert" valued it between $600 and $1000. I guess it's my past that keeps me from feeling that is an acceptable way to value a gun. Just yesterday I had an opportunity to purchase a very old map from around 1609. The seller wanted $2400. And in doing some internet research I found the same map, equal condition offered for $15,000. Which makes me feel "value" is more than just what one asks and what one is willing to pay. I guess I'm stuck in a mind set that says value is an intrinsic quantifiable and object aspect of a gun all be it not an exact "science". And I will add that MAY NOT be totally true when speaking of specific categories such as high end antiques or high end replicas.
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The definition of "worth" is determined by a willing seller and CERTAINLY by a willing BUYER.
Bob Roller
I agree that is the classic definition of both a free market and market price. At a high enough price obviously there will be lots of willing sellers. We saw this with both the last housing bubble, and the price bubble in "Classic Cars". This also tells us that just because someone is willing to pay 300,000 for a 20,000 car, doesn't now make all cars like it worth 300,000.
Guns are not art in any traditional sense of the word nor are they a sound "investment" in the true sense of that word. The number of very well healed purchasers available to buy guns, particularly muzzle loaders, is far lower than those buying Andy Warhol and the size of the market, which in the case of custom muzzle loaders is also shrinking steadily, is a key determinant of future value.
I really like guns of all kinds, and have done fairly well over the years in having the ones I bought hold their value or appreciate somewhat, but they certainly haven't performed on par with the stock market. I would not be tying up my retirement investment money in high end muzzle loaders hoping they would grow in value like a regular investment will.
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My advise would be to collect for the love of the item. Don't spend more than you can afford to lose. If you are comfortable with the price and it is worth it to own the item then by all means get it . Enjoy it . When the time comes when you decide to sell if you make money GREAT! If not, you had years of enjoyment from it.
There are collectors of many different items who have more money than most of us can imagine . If they spend millions for an item. I say good for them and the seller. To buy for speculation , in my opinion is very risky and does a disservice to the items and the collecting fraternity.
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The Classic Car market in the upper ranges such as Packard Super Eights and V12s as well as the ultra exotic Duesenbergs appears to be a mutual admiration society of 80+ years old millionaires.Most of these cars are over restored to the point of being absurd or down right freaks.This market operates as one continued auction
from all over the country.I knew only one man who really enjoyed his cars and he is now dead.He had 3 Duesenbergs at the time of his passing and drove them hard and fast just as they were intended to be by old
E.L.Cord and Fred Duesenberg.
I don't try to keep up with the gun market in any venue,antique,semi modern or whatever.As I stated earlier,
it's the BUYER that determines value and I have never heard of a $20,000 car selling for $300,000 but then old P.T.Barnum has been proven right time and again. (hey,buddy,I got a bridge for sale cheap)
Bob Roller
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Brennan's work is not appreciated for his name. He is a master gunbuilder who executes beautiful rifles.
To better understand what Shreckmeister is saying, take a look at this Brennan rifle and decide if you wish to buy it at the offered price:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=414416471
Dennis
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Now I AM confused! In my mind being a master and making beautiful rifles CAN be embodied in the name. Say "Chevy"... mean common car very acceptable to most. Say "Bentley" and the message conveyed is encompassing of the best of the best. "Brennan" similarly says "a beautiful rifle".
But it will prove to be interesting to watch that gun sell. I suppose we might all see it slightly differently....left handed, used, "early" example, etc. But based on the photos and dismissing the fact that it's a left handed gun, I see nothing in it better than the McCoy rifle on my wall which has been fired 5 times and otherwise perfect AND which was purchased directly from the maker for about $300 less than the example's starting price. But we do know a few things about the gun offered. First, the seller is willing to let it sell for $1799.87. ($1799.87! really!) And secondly we know it has been on for 7 days with no bids. Personally, I don't like it and would not buy it, no offense to Mr Brennan. But for a master gunsmith who makes beautiful rifles would you not expect it to sell and even maybe for a premium? I'll go out on a limb. It won't sell. OR if it does it will sell for under $2000. Now, consider I have never seen a Brennan sell nor ever seen one "in person" I may prove to be completely wrong but I have followed sales of replicas on gunbroker for many many months. A couple just sold, one for just a few hundred dollars. Two are nice lookers, no name builders and one offered at $1000 did not sell. Here is the other: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=41487185 So, what's the number on the Brennan going to be? Anyone??
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No takers! And no sale. Have I learned anything from this? Maybe, maybe not. But it does tend to support what I have come to conclude about contemporary rifles and this is not 100% correct 100% of the time but...
1. They generally do not bring more in a subsequent transaction than they do when purchased from the buyer or otherwise "new" (even if unfired or "90%").
2. Even with a master maker, the gun itself makes the most significant statement.
3. The artistic merit of a gun seems to be more important than who made it.
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No takers! And no sale. Have I learned anything from this? Maybe, maybe not. But it does tend to support what I have come to conclude about contemporary rifles and this is not 100% correct 100% of the time but...
1. They generally do not bring more in a subsequent transaction than they do when purchased from the buyer or otherwise "new" (even if unfired or "90%").
2. Even with a master maker, the gun itself makes the most significant statement.
3. The artistic merit of a gun seems to be more important than who made it.
Being a lefty certainly didn't help that rifle.
In the long run, all of these contemporary guns, no matter how old, are seen as modern made, and for the life of me, I don't understand why anyone would think they're going to appreciate to any great degree.
Look at the earlier thread regarding a limited production cased Hawken rifle. Even though it sold for more than its new price, it still didn't even keep up with inflation so as a investment, it's a looser.
I can see buying a modern gun because you like it, but don't expect to make money on it, except in the rarest of circumstances.
John
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Being a lefty certainly didn't help that rifle.
And that Germanic lock on a southern "Po Boy" certainly didn't either!
Dennis
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Couple of thoughts from me. First I am VERY new to these guns/rifles so I never picked up on the lock. Makes one wonder why a master would build such a gun. But it's a question that might be answered. It was specified by the client. It has been changed. Or maybe it was made when the master was just a grasshopper. As to contemporary replicas, I have expressed the notion that new ones will not re-sell for what they cost when purchased "new". I still believe that is mostly true, but no art, not always. And I certainly agree that they are not "investments" but objects to give one an immediate "kick" from ownership. However, a high quality rifle purchased from a builders "stock" at the right price might be one that you could recover all of your cost plus a little but over a long time and then the gun would need to remain in pristine condition, maybe even unfired. I hear some people talk like they are "investment" and that you will never lose your money....I don't buy that! I have made the purchases I have made and planned the ones I have in mind because I like them. I like shooting them. I like looking at them. I like the people who made them as well as others who admire them and I like to think I just might be creating a little history myself in owning them. Afterall, two hundred years from now they will be old guns and someone will be sitting around wondering about the maker and the times and what the gun has "seen". Today's guns will never have the experiences of defending one's self and family from hostiles, or being carried in defense of our homes or nation. But I still think (and hope) they will be objects of great interest to future generations.
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One of our local shooters here in Arizona has a rifle by Milo Bragg which is a very well made and a great shooter. The inletting is pretty much faultless. Unfortunately I understand that Mr. Bragg fairly recently died. The seller is way over the top on sales pitch and price, however I would be happy to own it for less than his opening bid.
Roger B.
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I started another thread with pictures of a Hawken style rifle built by Taylor Sapergia, which just also happens to be left handed, because that is what I want to shoot. The market for left handed guns is 80% smaller than the market for right handed guns, so if someone plans on shooting it, or is looking for more HC/PC (I know there were left handed rifles back in the day but they were far less common than they are today) you have a MUCH smaller market to appeal to.
In terms of value, to have Taylor make the same gun I posted you would be looking in the ball park of 8-$10,000 today. I bought the rifle I posted used and I can tell you I didn't pay anywhere near that for it. Taylor is one of the top ranked builders of our day and the quality of his work and artistry is well acknowledged but his guns are still just modern replicas. Maybe 1 or 200 years from now they will have appreciated in value a significant amount, but currently they sell at a big discount to their new price, just like most modern builders and modern centrefire arms.
As I posted earlier, this is not where you want to invest your retirement funds.
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Left handers and earlier, less than stellar work aside there are some guns that will sell for more than their original sale price even after use depending on the maker and the gun. This has been proven. Still there are much better ways for investments as has been said.
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Can you compare the potential for appreciation in value of a 2010 Allen Martin made
Herman Rupp rifle in 2050 vs. the appreciation of a equal maker from 1970s (40 years later)
The work being done now looks much more like the originals than what was being
made 40 years ago, at least from the ones I have seen. We now hold the old makers to a much higher standard and I've not seen
many made in that period that were as good, with the exception of a Wallace Guslar, John Bivins etc
top tier maker, but even they build a better rifle now than they did in the 70s.
A lot of the 60s and 70s rifles just look like strange cousins of the longrifle to me.