AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: 2lookindown on April 21, 2013, 03:22:57 AM
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I have some Lee molds that have the spur cut off and is undersized... I would like to get one built with the spur above round...
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Larry Callahan of Missouri builds custom bullet molds...he has an ad in Muzzleloader, and you can probably find him on the web.
Good luck! Jim
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Jim, Thanks I will try and find him....
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Jeff Tanner, best you can buy for the money. Reach him at; jeff@jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk.
Mark
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Mark, I sent him an e-mail... Thanks
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Dixie used to,don't know if they still do.They made 'em in .001" increments.
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http://www.bagmolds.com/UNZIPPED/htdocs/1.shtml
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Here is another gentleman that makes custom RB moulds, though I have not had any contact, with him, for some time. He's a retired Master Machinist and is known as 'Cannon Mike.'
http://www.users.qwest.net/~cannonmike/
During the pendency of my Allen Martin Newcomer/Fondersmith build, I commissioned a 'period correct,' steel, three (3) ball 'gang mould (1X.630 + 2X.625) from him. It was fully stress relieved and heat treated. Upon completion, I sent it to Tim Ridge of Swamp Fox Knives who crafted turned handles of Curly Ash, with turned brass ferrules, for it. It was a thing of beauty and fully utilitarian- like the smoothrifle it was built to accompany.
Regrettably, I deleted my digital photos, of it. Perhaps someone, here, can persuade the CLA European Correspondent, who has custody of this set/gang mould, to present a few photographs on ALR, for us.
We're fortunate, today, to have so many talented craft/trades people, to choose from, quite literally at our fingertips.
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2look,
What size are you needing?
Mark
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Guys, Sorry Dad is in the hospital with congestive heart failure... I stayed up whit him all night... I need a .319 & a .395... I have a .319 in a lee and a .395 in a lee... I want one that I can get a total round ball... The lee molds seem to leave the ball 10 thousands light on the spur side... I want a mold that I can swege to round or tumble round...
I have contacted Jeff Tanner but not set in stone yet....
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2look,
I have used Lee molds with great success for a long time. The .319 is going to be a custom but you should be able to get your .395 from Lyman or RCBS, with steel blocks. For the cost you may not see an appreciable difference. Hope your Dad does well.
Mark
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There's a Dixie 395 Single Cavity Mold on ebay with two days left. It's only bid to $5.00 so far.
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There's a Dixie 395 Single Cavity Mold on ebay with two days left. It's only bid to $5.00 so far.
Does that mold have a complete round ball or is it one like the Lee that will not make a true round ball... The lee is only .309 at the flat and the rest is .319 with no way to make it round.... I hate loading with the flat out it catches wind and affects flight of the round ball....
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It makes a complete round ball. I have and use the exact same one for my .40 caliber. Its a heavy duty mold it will last longer than we will.
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You may be seeking more perfection than you're going to find in a mold. I just went and measured a few RB, different calibers and mold makers, just to see how spherical they are. If you imagine that the ball is a globe with the north pole at the sprue, then measuring across the poles (first measurement) and comparing with the diameter at the 'equator' (2nd measurement) I got:
Lee .385 RB, .370 vs .387 around the equator
Unknown custom .530: .543 vs .533
.595 Callahan Bag mold: .579 vs .598
Lyman .440: .446 vs .442
Hornady Swaged 000 (.350) RB: .351 +/- .001 depending on orientation of measurement.
A mold is going to leave some artifact where the sprue is cut off. The Lyman mold tends to leave the sprue standing proud. The Lee mold tends to cut off below the imaginary contour of the sphere. The Callahan bag mold leaves a lot of sprue and puddled lead for you to cut off manually so the sprue artifact depends on your technique in cutting off the excess lead.
If you want to cast closer to a more perfect sphere, you'd have to pour through a small hole to reduce the size of the sprue, but I'm thinking the hole would be so small that getting a uniform pour without air bubbles would be somewhere between difficult and impossible. I'd suggest you try to find some swaged rb in the desired diameter and see what sort of groups you get with those compared to the cast ball you're shooting now. And, if you haven't already done so, weigh out several of your cast .319s and see how uniform you're casting with respect to weight. A random air bubble in there may have more potential for causing mischief than the sprue. Good luck, SCL
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SCLoyalist, I will build a swege if I get one with the spure up proud.... I have enough junk molds to make it work....
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1. Pour lead into mould (Note: type of lead-lead alloy will affect shrinkage)
2. Use sprue cutter or other cutting tool (if/as applicable)
3. Quickly reinsert into the warm mould making sure that the sprue is repositioned to face rounded wall of mould
4. Compress to obtain round/sphere shaped ball (without sprue)
5. Repeat...
The pursuit of perfection is a humbling experience, fraught, ultimately, with compromise.
Good luck!
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Collector, I was going to use my rockchucker press a the final stage of the round ball procedure.... I guess doing it hot would help but I think it will work by using an old mold and getting the spure as short as possible and press it to round... It has got to be better than a flat spot 10 thousands under size....
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NEI makes RB molds too. Not sure about custom.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html
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2lookingdown,
All things being equal, (they're not) targets should tell the tale, but the benefits may, ultimately, prove to be so incremental that making any determination will prove, at best, difficult.
Good luck with your 'quest.' We await your return and the telling of your travels.
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Collector, If you load a Lee made round ball and get the flat spot off center will it fly straight enough for you to shoot it in a match at friendship... I don't want to shoot anything like that myself... If I need to load something that needs to be centered up and if it aint center it won't fly right... Maybe it is good enough for most people but I want to shoot the best I can....
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Kermit, I have a Jeff Tanner mold on the way but if it aint right I will check it out..... THanks
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The way you drop the ball and how soon after it solidifies affects the "roundness" of the ball.
Larry's cast quite a nice ball. I've never had one more than .008 out of round. Swedging is the only way to get the kind of "perfection" your looking for.
Walter Kline did an experiment with out of round ball's and found they were more consistently accurate than the more uniform ball's. Go figure!
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Pathfinder, I just don't want a .010 below round flat spot that I need to be centered to be able to shoot my gun.... If i get it off it will be out of center and cause a out of balance problem.... a wobble in a round ball can't be accurate...
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The base must be perfect. The nose of the bullet or ball is of very much less importance. A ball with the projecting or flat spot sprue closely centred will shoot at well at 50yards as you are able.
Jeff Tanner's molds will leave a sprue that must be trimmed by you. I use wire strippers with the little rounded cutters - with pure lead balls a cut and twist motion will usually leave an almost perfectly round ball, with a tiny tit. I place that up and when pushing that combination into the bore with the short starter, that little tit is pushed into the ball, making for a perfectly round ball.
The other option is to snip off the sprue, then use a file stroke to smooth and round that area, again making for a perfectly round surface.
The smallest Tanner mould I have is a .595". With my 10 thumbs-for-fingers, I cannot imagine trimming anything much smaller.
Tanner mould. I suggest you use mould prep, or spray inside with Ms. Moly or other moly bullet coating spray. This will prevent lead sticking to the brass and will assist in delivering perfectly cast balls.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fa3ea8c2a.jpg&hash=3a9128aff40fc01d3a1ba1d7dd687578381a8b1c) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/a3ea8c2a.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fb59ece27.jpg&hash=e790b63c9ad7282b82502eaa65b9bb7ae47da02a) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/b59ece27.jpg.html)
These balls are right out of a Tanner mold.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F003-1.jpg&hash=3a42d8900880d65086fa4cc5a2d4daa0e1c20b8f) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/003-1.jpg.html)
These are the wire strippers I use - I find them much superior to side cutters.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fwirestrippers.jpg&hash=6998ab83af933a339bd19d85c28230b9bafd67e9) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/wirestrippers.jpg.html)
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Daryl, I will use my Lee mold .319 after I cut the spure place it in the Lee mold and press it with the rockchucker press to make the spure round... It should work... I just need to either tap the Lee mold or have it fixed to the rockchucker press some how ???
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2Look,
I personally think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. If you use a good, available, mold and good casting proceeedure I will bet you a dime to a donut that you won't be able to tell the difference between their accuracy and a ball that you go to the trouble of pressing and measuring etc. My light bench and table rifles shoot one hole groups out to 50 yards right out of a Lee aluminum mold. Try it, you might like it.
Mark
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Mark, I have shot 500 rounds out of my .32 cal and I'm getting tired of the spure that needs to be straight.... So I will make it so I don't need to worry about the spure.... Maybe I am making a mountain out of a mole hill "BUT" I have won a world championship trapshooting... There was 3738 shooters that day and this old hilljack won it all.... So maybe I can make the spure disappear with my junk Lee mold... ;D ;D ;D
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Congratulations on the trapshooting championship, I realize that is no easy feat. But, I think you will find if you have a good mold, not custom, with a minimal sprue that isn't dead center straight up you will shoot as well as the rifle you are shooting. Just my opinion. Good luck in your search.
Mrk
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X2 on Mark's post.
Congratulations on the trap shooting victory - that's 'some' feat, but this is about round ball mould sprues.
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X2 on Mark's post.
Congratulations on the trap shooting victory - that's 'some' feat, but this is about round ball mould sprues.
Daryl, I was just making a statement that " I KNOW HOW TO SHOOT"... I want all of my components to be the best I can get... I do not want a flat spot on my round ball .010 under round that I need to worry about putting straight up dead center.... Maybe It will shoot ok regardless of where the flat spot is placed.... I guess I should not have posted what I posted and just shot what I had and tried not to better myself .... I'm sorry Daryl that I got your panties in a wad..... I just want a true round ball....That's all
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Jeff Tanner mould looks great.... Thanks guys
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sounds like 2lookin' is gettin' all "touchy" again........
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Nope just jerkin some chains and havin fun" BUT NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY" ;D ;D
Oh Yea the mould worked great and the Lee worked as a swege... And they shoot great also.... AGAIN THANKS GUYS....
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2look,
How about posting some pics of the groups you are shooting, with some load specs. Like to see the results of your effort.
Mark
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Well, each to his or her own.
I'd like to see some of those special groups that cannot be shot with a normally cast ball as well. You've got my attention. I-too enjoy shooting tiny groups off bags, but I use as-cast balls. At 50 yards, possibly even 100, I do not believe the "re-swaged" ball will prove more accurate.
I can definitely see weighing them for sure, but making sure they are perfectly round just doesn't make ballistic sense, considering what we know about bullet bases and noses form the ctg. gun world.
If they make you feel better, or you like the 'convenience' fine, but as to them shooting better, I just don't believe that.
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Yeah.....and be sure and let us all know how many world records you break with those perfectly round balls.
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So I guess your doubting whether on not I won anything at all ??
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I'd be interested in seeing how you're doing with that .32 with the 1:66 twist, just for the scientific curiosity aspects of it. I'm wondering if
the slower twist than is now common in that caliber means you have to use heavier than normal charges of powder or a tight group, or just that you have that option.
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2look,
Nope, just want to see the results of your efforts. On here we all try to share what we learn.
Mark
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Guys, I'm really tied up right now... Dad is still not responding and has lost 4 units of blood and does not now anyone... I have a hog to roast for my sons wedding saturday but I will get some pictures posted for unins just give me some time to catch up got to go to the hospital and it is an 1 1/2 hour drive .... Later
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FWIW the Lee and RCBS RB moulds have a tangential sprue cut. Sometimes in the same nominal diameter they both have a + or- cut if you check different moulds. Production tolerances I guess. If you have a choice buying, open the mould and look.
The Lyman has a cylindrical tube of casting metal that is cut off by the sprue plate, also + or- to the ball surface. The Tanner mould has the tube also that you must cut off to minimize and deal with although I think the roundness is a measurable bit better than the named competition, but that is offset by production time.
You can put a couple of hundred of your RB(depending upon total weight) in the smallest Thumler's tumbler for about 4 hours and make the well trimmed upstanding sprue tubes disappear, and the roundness measurably improves also, especially on your best tangential cut ball, depending upon how far it was out to start with. I'm talking LEAD here, not an alloy ball. Nothing but the RB to be tumbled is needed in the tumbler, NOT A VIBRATORY CASE CLEANER. Riding RB around in my car trunk only produced decreased gas mileage in my experience and made little measurable difference.
After my fooling around on this question for some time, I now tumble all RB I cast, send the tall sprue tube moulds down the road for the guys of the sprue up ritual, cherish the right on nominal roundness moulds, and poke down the barrel without regards to orientation, the RB I make.
Lon
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Lon, I cut the spure off as close as I could get it and took my dremel tool and work the rest down to round... I have a rock tumbler that works real good on the round ball but it wouldn't get the flat spot off the Lee ball and I left it in for 4 days so I gave up.... Look at the group I shot on the other post I posted ... It was with the Jeff Tanner mould... And Thanks for you input....