AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: ramrod on May 29, 2013, 07:37:09 AM
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new m. dehass 50 cal. bbl. bore mikes .499 on lands , and .522 in the grooves . i was thinking .018 pillow tick patch with 395 round ball , but i would like to hear from some more experienced shooters . all opinions will be welcomed . thanks..
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You'll need a MUCH thicker patch to shoot a .395 ball in a .50.
;D ;) ;D
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A .495 ball with your patching will work very well. Over 50 yrs experience with this stuff.
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I've shot a bunch of Marks' barrels over the past 20 years, but no .50's. All I've fooled with were 40's and a couple of .45's. In the 40's, I shot .395's an .018 patches for several years til I glued a scope base on for patch testing and found out that a thinner .014 twill shot better. The difference is not enough to ever see when shooting offhand, but at 100 off the bench,(when the wind wasn't blowing), I could shoot 10 shot groups on demand that were less than 2.5" while the .018 patch was almost always slightly more than 4". Both patches would shoot about 75% of the shots into less than 2", but the difference was in the fliers' distance from the center of the group. I was able to get these results to repeat several times with absolutely no overlap of groups (same results in other words) which is important. I've seen a lot of guns that would show a preference for a certain patch/ball combination on one day and then get different results on another day. If you can get the same results three times on three different days, then I believe it. But unless the results are extremely far apart, like 2" vs 10", I wouldn't trust one session. The best barrels will shoot "pretty good" within a range of patch/ball combinations too. Anyway, I'd take a .495 ball and patches from about .012 to .018 and set in to testing. I bet it will shoot any of them good enough to hunt with.
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I have one of Mike's .50 x 48" barrels, and it likes .495 balls and .015 patches. I'm using linen and spit mostly.
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I have a .50 of Mark's also, one of my favorite guns to shoot. It shoots very well with 0.17 pillow ticking, .495 ball and 75 gr of 2f Goex.
Michael
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I always start with a ball .005" under bore size, in this case, .495" is the correct size, along with a .0215" to .235" patch. So far - it has always worked - splendidly. This 'basic' combination has worked in hundreds of barrels over the years - never a failure to give excellent accuracy & clean shooting, usually the best accuracy that barrel is capable of. Between Taylor and I, literally hundreds of barrels showed well with the 'formulae'.
I've found commercial (OxYoke) .018" patches to only measure .014" to .016" (it varies) by my tools & thus, I find it too thin to work in all guns. I usually suggest the shooter use a .005" under ball and a 10 ounce denim patch,with WWWF + a tich of Neestfoot oil for target shooting or straight Neetsfoot oil or Track's mink oil for hunting. Straight oils usually need a bit more powder to make them shoot with the same accuracy and poi as water based, target shooting lubes that we use.
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thank you everyone. range trip today . used .495 ball & .017 pillow ticking patch lubed with hoppes no. 9 plus best 3 shot groupe 13 / 16" center to center 25 yds. off bags . might try dennim patching when i get some . again , thanks to all who replied .
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Now that you're zeroed, stretch it on out to 100yds. Like Robert Watts used to say, "a gas pipe will shoot good at 25yds" ;D
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I always start with a ball .005" under bore size, in this case, .495" is the correct size, along with a .0215" to .235" patch. So far - it has always worked - splendidly. This 'basic' combination has worked in hundreds of barrels over the years - never a failure to give excellent accuracy & clean shooting, usually the best accuracy that barrel is capable of. Between Taylor and I, literally hundreds of barrels showed well with the 'formulae'.
I've found commercial (OxYoke) .018" patches to only measure .014" to .016" (it varies) by my tools & thus, I find it too thin to work in all guns. I usually suggest the shooter use a .005" under ball and a 10 ounce denim patch,with WWWF + a tich of Neestfoot oil for target shooting or straight Neetsfoot oil or Track's mink oil for hunting. Straight oils usually need a bit more powder to make them shoot with the same accuracy and poi as water based, target shooting lubes that we use.
Using that combination, how hard is it to get the ball started down bore? Do you need a ball starter or mallet?
Ez
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I always start with a ball .005" under bore size, in this case, .495" is the correct size, along with a .0215" to .235" patch. So far - it has always worked - splendidly. This 'basic' combination has worked in hundreds of barrels over the years - never a failure to give excellent accuracy & clean shooting, usually the best accuracy that barrel is capable of. Between Taylor and I, literally hundreds of barrels showed well with the 'formulae'.
I've found commercial (OxYoke) .018" patches to only measure .014" to .016" (it varies) by my tools & thus, I find it too thin to work in all guns. I usually suggest the shooter use a .005" under ball and a 10 ounce denim patch,with WWWF + a tich of Neestfoot oil for target shooting or straight Neetsfoot oil or Track's mink oil for hunting. Straight oils usually need a bit more powder to make them shoot with the same accuracy and poi as water based, target shooting lubes that we use.
Pre cut patches ..Oh My! I mic them. I get a lot of variance from what they are sold as. Oh course, maybe I'm not doing it the same as the next guy, I try to be consistent as to how I measure and add patches together to get the thickness I need. Anyway, that's the only way I can get precuts to work properly.
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Daryl,
Please forgive my ignorance , but what is WWWF + tich?
Michael
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winter windshield washer fluid
"Tich"--more or less phonetic spelling of a regional mispronunciation of "touch." A small inderterminate unmeasured amount.
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Thank you for the reply. I have heard of people using that mix, just never have. I have used Dawn, and water mixture for years.
Michael
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can start ball with bullet starter. probaly need to go to fabric store for denim . and will try 100 yds. need a free day to get back to range and give it a go .
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I have seen videos of guys choked up on their rods hugging their rifles and using 2 hands to push the patched ball into the muzzle when using what I call a decent ball and patch combination. A .005" under ball and 10 ounce denim is a decent combination. I find it so much easier on me, the rifle's stock and the condition of the ball, to use a short starter that I cannot even consider trying to push the patched ball into the muzzle without one. It has become second nature to use the short starter. Mine all have 5" to 6 1/2" shafts. That puts the ball down far enough into the bore that my ram rod is in much less jeopardy of being broken.
In this short video, the patched ball is sitting on top of the muzzle and the short peg on the starter is pressing on the ball. I smack the starter's knob with my palm, then up-end the starter to put the long shaft on the ball, then another smack and down it goes. Out comes the rod and it's lifted an inch or so off the ball, then pushed down 8" to 10", then again and again until it's down- then the hole in the starter's knob is placed on the rod and a single smack seats the ball on the powder- as closely as possible, exactly the same each time. This combination is a 10 ounce denim patch at .0225" compressed using my mic and a .445" ball. It's an old video. This meahtod is easy and as you can see, that combination is easy to load. Incidently, I've had fired over 55 shots before this video was taken and the bore had never been wiped. As you can see quite obviously, the bore is not 'fouled'. I was using pre-cuts and WWWF+neetsfoot oil as a lube. WWWF by itself also works just as well. The oil helps slow evaporation in the summer time- I think.
Since I stated using these rather snug combinations and a short starter back in the mid 1970's I have never run into a fouling problem, except for when doing tests with various 'lubes' - mostly looking for freezing weather hunting lubes (for -40 hunting) in the 70's and early 80's. The ones that did not work caused excessive fouling.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fth_Movie-LoadingandShooting.jpg&hash=b91628ccb7e80ca5dc145e7bc43129e0a72d0c45) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/Movie-LoadingandShooting.mp4)
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.495 ball and 10oz denium patch......50 cal colarain bbl. I have to use a heavy rubber mallet whack to seat the ball. No way using the round end of the ball starter with a hit with my palm. Am I missing something trying to get the patched ball seated with the mallet.......or is that normal?
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.495 ball and 10oz denim patch......50 cal colarain bbl. I have to use a heavy rubber mallet whack to seat the ball. No way using the round end of the ball starter with a hit with my palm. Am I misssing something trying to get the patched ball seated with the mallet.......or is that normal?
I wouldn't consider using a rubber mallet 'normal'. How far down the bore do you have to get the load before you can dispense with the mallet and just use a ramrod?
The two things that come to mind are to go through a methodical trial and error sequence as suggested by Dutch Schoultz's "Accuracy System" to find a combination of ball diameter, patch material, and patch lube you're satisfied with (i.e. that gives you acceptable accuracy and ease of loading), or look into coning the barrel with one of Joe Woods' or Ed Hamberg's coning tools.
I've seen rubber mallets at the loading benches off and on over the years. There is some evidence for their Historical Correctness.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.staticflickr.com%2F3741%2F9194127956_e5cd23a2b3_c.jpg&hash=ea8dc3176a95f4b6e82af2df5df97a8b314e6824)
Good luck, SCL
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Yea, no rubber mallet for me ;D ::), I use a wooden mallet with a ball .005 under, .023 denim, and a range rod for targets and first hunting load at the truck or camp. The loading block has balls .010 under and .015 ticking.
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"This combination is a 10 ounce denim patch at .0225" compressed using my mic and a .445" ball. It's an old video. This method is easy and as you can see, that combination is very easy to load." - even with the rifle's 3/8" hickory rod. No coning, just a nicely radiused crown. The start's stud, used to put the ball and patch down into the bore 1/4" top start, can be done just with pressure - but, smacking the starter's handle with the palm/heal of the hand is quicker- as you can see. It also reduces the downward pressure on the butt stock, reducing the possibility of breaking the stock.
The Swiss used hammers or mallets, but that was because they used balls that were larger than the groove diameter itself. It was the American backwoodsman who started the ball rolling on the type of loading we do today, wherein we use a ball and patch combination that actually compresses the patch INTO the ball at the bottom of the groove, not just on the lands.
Lay a lubed (where the ball is going to go) strip of patch material across the muzzle - punch the ball down into the bore 1/4 to 3/8", then grab the tag ends of the patch and pull it out. The ball should be marked all the way around- 360 degrees of it, heavily from the lands, lightly from the grooves.
Currently, I am using bore size balls in both my .40 and .32 with the same patch I used in the .45, in the above video- without any loading troubles and very easy loading, all day.
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SCLoyalist: To answer your question....rubber mallet to seat with Hoppes #9+, cut off excess denium patch, wood ball starter to 6" or so, then rod to seat. Very satisfied with accuracy with the super tight ball patch. Daryl, thanks for the great intuitive info! I have done nothing with the stock bbl crown and dont want to potentially do something permanently negative. For now, will continue use of rubber mallet directly on the ball, which does not distort the ball as my experiment using the starters stud and using the rubber mallet on the starter...if you can understand my drift. I set the stock butt on my boot to absorb the mallet hit to offset stock damage. I did as you suggested and pulled the ball out with the excess patch (very difficult) and the land/groove marks were highly visible. Just wish I did not have to use the rubber mallet. Maybe I will go down to an .490 ball instead of the .495 and try it. Thanks.
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SCLoyalist: I got your Davy Crocket message........interesting that this painting is located in the Texas Capital rotunda in Austin.......sans the blue rubber mallet ! Good work......
p.s., I will follow up after trying a .490 on the range.
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The .490 RB plus other thickness patching is the logical next step. From what you said about using the mallet only to get the patch/ball even with the muzzle, you could consider coning the muzzle which should allow you just to thumb-press your present .495 ball/denim patch down far enough to where the ball starter or ramrod can take over. Using the search engine feature will show several ways of coning (e.g. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4330.0 ), and the results. However, since coning removes metal and is irreversible, I'd save coning for a last resort.
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O.K. Fellas, some experimenting done.
1) 10oz denium patch w/.490 ball
2) 6oz denium patch w/.495 ball
3) 10oz denium patch w/.495 ball
To seat the ball into the muzzle, both #1 and #2 required a pretty good couple of palm whacks on my round my wood starter with the stud on the ball, then turned the starter and pushed 6" down the bbl...took moderate force. No way to using thumb to press either #1 or #2 into the muzzle. Both left definative land and groove markings on the balls, viewing with a magnifying glass; however, #3 left a much deeper impression on both ball and patch. All 3 left good patches with no torn threads after firing. All hit the black at 50 yards, bbl on bench rest with elbows on the table.
Previous posting above, you noted that I had to use a medium heavy rubber mallet whack to seat the ball before using the wood starter using #3 above. This you mentioned was not normal.
Question: Which would be better for sealing the groove, maximizing accuracy and minimizing fouling when fired? I understand that the patch actually seals the groove. Which would you choose...larger ball, thinner patch or visa versa?
Thanks again.
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I believe you Daryl, I really do. In Ancient Times I used .42 cal balls in an old recut .42 barrel. Worked fine. But that was not a modern barrel.
Now with .445 ball in a Green Mountain .45 I'd not use a mallet, but rather a 2# engineer's hammer to get the ball in, with a 0.020" patch. Someone said GM barrels had a choke, by loading feel I think that is so.
I suppose the answer is some manner of muzzle treatment with abrasive & thumb or brass ball.
Had hoped to shoot the !@*%&@ thing just as I got it.
Sigh.
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In response to 1911's and Jim's post, here are some crowns and the method I use for 'changing a machined crown, into one that works with tight loads, easily. If I head over to Taylor's I can chuck the barrel up in the lathe and use emery on a tapered wooden plug or the same emery on a small diameter 'electric hand drill-type tapered stone which, along with it's 3/8" shaft, provides a good hand hold, fingers pinching the emery onto the stone. This 'sets' the taper I want, whether it's done on the lathe or by hand, with a wrist-twisting motion, turning the barrel often to make sure it's evenly cut/ground. I finish with 600, then usually crocus cloth on my thumb- by hand or with a finger if using a lathe. This turns a fairly sharp angled machine cut, into a nice smooth radius that helps the ball to conform to the bore, without cutting or pushing up a ridge of lead, as a sharp edge or corner can.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2Fmuzzlecrown14bore001_zpsfb7e8769.jpg&hash=bfcb6d23b416385efc38c8ebb4d3a38fd9cbc8f6) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/muzzlecrown14bore001_zpsfb7e8769.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2FP4242100_zps80518abd.jpg&hash=4476ee4a4abd7c157342e35add02073ac2205f57) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/P4242100_zps80518abd.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2FPB141918_zpsbd7b72c5.jpg&hash=7c43dcdb435046abd86fad790fd9e3217b5f97cf) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/PB141918_zpsbd7b72c5.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2FCrowns45and58001_zps2a7b2e16.jpg&hash=45c0347af75d9d918bfe3dc7ea9cb2f58fde6cbb) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/Crowns45and58001_zps2a7b2e16.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2FP6101151_zps60eb38b8.jpg&hash=fff9434dfd169f043aee01179505cd6c65ae364f) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/P6101151_zps60eb38b8.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2FPB241922_zpsb5cca558.jpg&hash=dc3393a870c145ea3b761df4481a1e6d64406200) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/PB241922_zpsb5cca558.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2FPB241921_zps562d2707.jpg&hash=2d1840507a3f966ff80573223dc49d7b9fe7ce3a) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/PB241921_zps562d2707.jpg.html)
Here is another crown, that 's actually been 'finished' by the rifle's maker - thisdoes not happen often. This a work in progress Squirrel rifle by Steven Zihnn. You wait for the squirrel to run up the muzzle to the peanut oil dipped over-powder wad, then you pull the trigger? :D
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2F2Boremuzzle_zps4161ebde.jpg&hash=ca34ceeb630e5aa75111da1665328c26a9d44010) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/2Boremuzzle_zps4161ebde.jpg.html)
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Which would you choose...larger ball, thinner patch or visa versa?
A .50 Colerain barrel should have grooves of .016" depth, and I'd expect a thicker patch to be needed, which suggests going to a smaller diameter ball. Here's a link to an old discussion of the care and feeding of the .50 cal Colerain barrel. Maybe it'll suggest something you can use:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=20684.0
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For what's worth I use a .022 mattress ticking patch with a.490 roundball in my Green Mountain barrel. .12 Grooves +.10 for the ball =.022 its a tight fit but the short starter stud and 6"shaft get the job done! I can get quit a few (15+) shots of before I feel the need to give the barrel a quick wipe. that .022 is a compressed reading.
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The barrel on the rifle I built for my grandson is a 42 inch 50 cal. Colerain. I could not force a .490 ball with a .012 patch down the bore, and ended up dropping down to a .480 ball and .010-011 patch. Isn't this a little unusual? :-\ ???
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Sounds very unusual to me, Dick, but I have never owned a barrel by Colerain. Someone mentioned possibility of a choked barrel but that seems to be a lot of choke. Sounds more like an undersize bore. I believe i couldmshootmthat in my light bench gun that is a .48.
Suggest u call Colerain and ask a few questions
Tc
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Thank you, thank you, Daryl. These photos go in my permanent(?) gun file.
Now we'll see what can be done in my Man Cave (even the dog won't go down there).
TCompton - the choked barrel is the Green Mountain. Aids accuracy. The best 19th century barrels were choked, including our Springfield rifle-musket (the one used some years back, in an unfortunate affair instigated by another skinny . . . whoops! No politics here).
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The barrel on the rifle I built for my grandson is a 42 inch 50 cal. Colerain. I could not force a .490 ball with a .012 patch down the bore, and ended up dropping down to a .480 ball and .010-011 patch. Isn't this a little unusual? :-\ ???
YES!
For instance - my .69 uses a .684" ball with .030" (12 ounce Denim) patch. I use a short starter - the crown is the first crown I posted - my 14 bore rifle. The starter is necessary and you must WANT to load the gun - ie: you must actually exert yourself - tighten your muscles when loading. The rifle then rewards you with incredible accuracy.
My .40 uses a .398" ball in a .398" bore - I use a .0215" ticking, .0225" (10ounce) denim patch to .0235" railroad mattress ticking patch. It loads very easily due to the .010" rifling, a smooth bore that shines like a mirror & rewards me with excellent match-type accuracy.
My .45 GM barrel uses a .445" ball and any of the patches listed above for the .40 - it also loads easily and never needs to be wiped as like the others, every builds fouling, shot to shot - all day long.
For my .32, I am using the RR mattress ticking, the .0215" ticking or the 10 ounce denim with a .320" ball.
All of these guns NEED a short starter or heavily choked up rod and much pressure. Only the .69 cannot be loaded without a starter. I prefer a starter for all, as it's easier, quicker and the ball can be started perfectly square to the rifling is the short stud on the ball is used first. All pluses in my book. None of these loads damages the ball when started as the short stud and the long shaft of the starter both have cupped surfaces to fit the ball.
When someone tells me he cannot load a decent load combination and has to use a ball and patch that does not even measure the bore diameter of his rifle, I have to wonder, what's up, Doc?
My 110pound wife loads a .445" ball and .0225" patch in her GM .45 barrel (.012" rifling) without difficulty, as does my younger daughter in the same rifle. So - I find comprehension of these loading problems, quite mystifying. Perhaps it's simply a lack of being shown methods that work - or refusal to use a short starter.
Dphar can show you (video) how to load a snug combination without a starter. I've done exactly as he shows, but I prefer to use a starter - watch the video again on a previous page of this thread. I am starting with the ball sitting on a patch, at the muzzle. I first start the ball into the muzzle using the short stud on the starter. The rest is typical- punched down about 6", then all the way onto the powder with 3 or 4 punches. I call them punches, as the rod is lifted up about 1" off the ball, then shoved down onto it. The cupped end of the starter does not damage the ball.
I've loaded this way after finding this method worked for me since about 1974.
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I think I'd take my dial caliper and measure that bore first before going any farther. My 5 thou under ball size and 20 thou patch seems to work well loading with good accuracy. I use a starter( I like tight combinations).
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Guys, like LB noted in his post, we all pretty much use the same patch material, or thicknesses and none of us ever has any trouble loading - never any fouling problems so something we are collectively doing, is working. Too, as far as accuracy goes, this bunch is @!*% difficult to beat on a trail.
Although perhaps we should wipe now and then, no one does - ever. We're not shooting quickly, perhaps 2 or 3 or even 5 minutes between shots and rarely with a rifle does the barrel get warm. It's dry here, so powder fouling, if there was any buildup, shot to shot, would harden and prevent loading the next one.
Whenever we get moist weather, we see black fouling around the breech instead of white and perhaps some dampness or even water forming in a fouled pan - a wipe with a cloth before priming works. Never a fouling buildup, and we pretty much all use balls that are .005" under bore size and a .020" or thicker patch. That basic combination seems to work in every barrel we are using, GM, Getz, Rice, Longhammok or Rayle, square rifling, or deep .016" rounded. The odd guy uses a .010" smaller ball, but with the same .020" to .023" patch.
No one we shoot with, would consider using .012" patching for anything other than a handkerchief or for wiping fouling from the pan on a rainy day of shooting.
edited - Yes - even the guys with the TC's and Italian copies of the TC's use the same combination, some with the smaller .490" ball. Thick patches hold more lube and seal better than thin patches.