AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: ramrod on June 12, 2013, 05:01:45 AM
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have a t c hawkin 50 cal flintlock with a green mountain 1in 72 twist bbl . problem is terrible lag time between pan flash and bbl. ignition . tried 4 f in different pan locations also varying amounts of prime . any ideas would be apperiacted. also touchole sets to rear of pan. wondering if grinding back lip of pan would help.. thanks
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is your breech plug scraped clean and dry. no oil or water from cleaning patch .next check to se when you close pan if it is covering flash hole,are you sparking properly- next is your spark and cock lined up properly sto frizen. spark goes into pan as frizen opens..best adice take it to a real good flint shooter as he has had all of the above happen on guns over the years.
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Is this the first flintlock you have fired? I ask this because you might not know what to expect from a flintlock system. How far off center of the pan is the touch hole, and what is the touch hole - straight drilled, internal coned, perhaps a white lighting liner? What is the diameter of the hole - you can see what drill size fits through it to determine that.
Position of the powder makes some very small differences as proven in testing Larry Pletcher has filmed but most of the difference is not easily detectable by normal humans. Some used to think the pan being full was a handicap, but Larry more or less disproved that.
Are you using a touch hole pick to make sure the flare of the pan has clear access to the main charge? Dry fire it in a darkened room to see if you are getting a good shower of sparks or just a few. Might be you are not getting a strong ignition.
I did have a gun with the touch hole forward of center in the pan and I did reshape the pan to bring the center closer to the touch hole which helped some. When I installed a white lighting liner from Chambers the gun became quite fast.
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touchole is proper height but from center of pan is halfway to back of pan . thought about a white lightning but would still have to plug hole and redrill for proper location. also have a tenn. valley early virginia with a siler flintlock that is very quick . touchole liner in gun is thompson center allen head type.i have replaced hammer on lock to the new style and flint life is greatly improved and seems to spark well. short of pluging and redrilling and tapping i am at a loss. thanks to all
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also don"t think i can get white lightning in 1/4- 28 thd.
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What is size of the touch hole? I start mine at 1/16"/
TC
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Well I don't think it would hurt to make the pan wider to the rear which would have the effect of moving the touch hole toward center. I did that with a Dremel tool and it improved my rifle somewhat. But it didn't get quick until i put in the white lighting liner. If you get Chambers liner with the installation kit, it has the correct drill and tap I believe so you could go to a liner a little larger than the 1/4".
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You say that the liner is 1/4 by 28, so you could make a new liner from a 1/4x28 bolt cut of and installed then maybe drill a 1/16th hole at the 4 o clock position to make it closer to the center of the pan! just a thought! best of luck! Chubby
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When I feel the need for a custom touch hole liner, I buy a foot of stainless allthread from McMaster Carr, and make it the way I want it.
Hungry Horse
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seems to spark well.
I hunted and shot a houseful of T/C Hawkens year round for 18 years.
Old style locks then upgraded to the new style locks
Old style vent liners then upgraded to the new style vent liners
Accumulated several different calibers and gauges of T/C and GM drop-in barrels.
The new style locks and vent liners made them seem like I was shooting a Marlin .30-30 with:
Goex 4F prime
Goex 3F (or 2F) main
Tom Fuller black English flints
Plus, remember that T/C and GM barrels have a modern version of Nock's Patent Breech so a vent pick / picking the vent is not needed...I never owned one.
Due to variations in the inletting locations from stock to stock, every now and then when I converted a caplock to a flintlock, the location of the vent would be forward or backward of center on the pan and never caused the first problem.
So if it was me, I'd forget about all the vent reworking if it involved redrilling the barrel as I don't believe that's your problem, and it would also void the barrel warranty with GM)..... and try 3 things if you haven't already done so:
1) Your choice of words "SEEMS to be sparking well" caught my eye.
If you're using T/C agate flints, strongly suggest you get rid of them and use Fuller Black English...T/Cs new locks with Fuller flints made showers of sparks.
2) Switch to 4F prime (or Null-B) if you are not already using one of them.
3) And if you haven't been pump flushing the Patent Breech 100% clean after every use.
(or wrapping a cleaning patch around a small diameter brush like a .32cal to slide down into the Patent Breech powder chamber and clean it every time) it could have accumulated a build up on the walls of the powder chamber and flash channel that could be keeping main charge from flowing freely all the way down and around to just inside the vent liner...you should be able to see kernels of powder in the vent hole.
Just my .02 cents on the matter...
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A 1/4" W.L. liner is larger on the O.D. than 1/4-28.
k
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A 1/4" W.L. liner is larger on the O.D. than 1/4-28.
k
Huh?? WL liners are made from 5/16" stock but a 1/4" thread is a 1/4" thread.
Bill
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have a t c hawkin 50 cal flintlock with a green mountain 1in 72 twist bbl . problem is terrible lag time between pan flash and bbl. ignition . tried 4 f in different pan locations also varying amounts of prime . any ideas would be apperiacted. also touchole sets to rear of pan. wondering if grinding back lip of pan would help.. thanks
Are you using real BP to charge the barrel? You give me the impression you are. Didn't see that question asked and felt the need to inquire for trouble shooting purposes.. ;D
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Patent breeches pretty much must be flushed, to get the built-up fouling out of the channels, just as RB says.
Good point, Jim T.
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thanks to all for the help. just got back from the range and i am happy to report the hawkin is firing just fine now. i found a new tc liner & put that in , low & behold ignition was as it should be , nice & quick. this is a kit gun wife got me for xmas in 1977 it has a lot of sentamental value to me. do not understand yet why i had this problem as old liner looked good yet. i am very meticulous in cleaning guess from my machinist background . but i believe everything is good and if rain lets up will give it a good workout fri. or sat.. again thanks everyone.
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My idea is that the biggest problem is FLINT! There is a reason they replaced this system!
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"...touchole liner in gun is thompson center allen head type..."
i found a new tc liner & put that in , low & behold ignition was as it should be , nice & quick.
I'm glad things are operating the way they should now...Flintlocks are fantastic when you learn all the care & feeding things to do.
And to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, you had a T/C new style hex head liner in there, and all you did was replace it with another T/C new style hex head liner...now it's working fine?
Were there any other changes made as well?
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I've never understood why, but every T/C flintlock I have or have seen, have the flash hole a little aft of center of the pan.... Something about their jig set up or something?
They fire just fine but I've put "White Lightning" liners in all of them.
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Some of the ones I used to have…I converted them from caplocks and some ended up with the vent slightly after of center, never caused any problems...TCs redesigned vent liner is outstanding in terms of reliability and ignition speed...big .070" vent hole, coned inside & out.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv630%2Froundball%2FMuzzleloading%2FLocks%2FSAVE5CLOSEUPNewStyleLockArea800REDU-1.jpg&hash=dd941ce4c80c7dfedc82cd63c0beb0d0ce26bc84) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/roundball/media/Muzzleloading/Locks/SAVE5CLOSEUPNewStyleLockArea800REDU-1.jpg.html)
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My idea is that the biggest problem is FLINT! There is a reason they replaced this system!
Replaced with what? The FL has never gone out of use. Other systems are only experimental ;D
A good flintlock with a good flint gives nothing to a percussion is reliability if loaded right and properly cared for.
But a great many flintlocks are, both the lock and the overall gun are not "good". They leak priming, they fail to spark, they don't put sparks in the pan properly. The vents are often second rate etc etc. The best, fastest, most reliable FLs were the late English "best" shotguns and rifles. These were the final evolution of the flintlock. The greatest advantage of the Percussion, a good one, is in off hand shooting and wing shooting where lock time is a major factor. Many flintlocks with large frizzens tend to jar the firearm before the ball starts to move.
Reliabilty is really not on the radar except in extreme cases perhaps.
Dan
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Ain't ever, after just one, going back to flint! What a MAJOR PITA! If I want to involve a rock in my hunting, I'll use a SLING. At least they fire!
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I used to think the same way DogShirt, until I learned to properly load and shoot good flinters.
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I used to think the same way DogShirt, until I learned to properly load and shoot good flinters.
I believe that to be an oxymoron.
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My flintlocks are used for all my hunting. Bears, moose, deer, geese, ducks, turkey,partridge etc. I have absolute faith in them. The problem I see is that there is no such thing as a "cheap" flintlock if you want reliability.
A good lock is an intricate piece of machinery. If walking in to the tag alders after moose, I'd rather have my .62 flintlock than my .54 percussion. It is that reliable.
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Dogshirt, tell us about your experience with a flintlock -
make, model, caliber, powder etc. If a built gun, the lock and size of touch hole.
TC
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And to be honest, Flintlocks don't even have to be expensive.
For example, T/Cs redesigned Flintlocks and vent liners with Fuller flints and Goex are outstanding, and I never bought a brand new one...always a used beater for a low price, that after refinishing and converting to Flint I averaged having $400-$450 in them...never let me down when I'd finally get a nice 10 pointer or long-beard in my sights, and that includes hunting them in light rain on 3 different occasions. If they were not 100% reliable I would not have trusted them for hunting.
I've since added more traditional style long guns with top quality locks, triggers, and barrels for retirement to have that experience before I check out, but have not killed a single dove, deer, squirrel, or long-beard any deader with them than I did for years with T/C Hawkens...they just look prettier and cost a lot more money.
Have now sold off every caplock I ever owned, and 98% of all modern center-fires as all I use are Flintlocks...totally reliable.
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I'm not sure I'd try to win a cap shooter over with a TC flinter. I shoot almost exclusively flint, and have had several newbies quit shooting flint, because the only flintlock they have had any experience with is a TC Hawken. Lame coil springs, and often questionable lock geometry, make them more work than they're worth. For the newbie, the locks are very hard to tune, compared to a good modern flintlock, with flat springs, good geometry. Heck you can buy a good serviceable used flinter online for what a TC costs and not have to deal with all the industrial shortcuts in the TC .
And as for Dogshirt, He will come around when the percussion caps dry up like the rimfire ammo.
Hungry Horse
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Right...T/Cs old style Flint lock assemblies, old style vent liners, and sawed agate flints were not a reliable combination at all.
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Ain't ever, after just one, going back to flint! What a MAJOR PITA! If I want to involve a rock in my hunting, I'll use a SLING. At least they fire!
My Great uncle was a NC gunmaker in the early 1800's until his death in 1871. He was also loved to bear hunt. He was never known to have made pistols but he made himself a bear pistol to hunt with. Most of his rifles were caliber 40-45 but he made the pistol a 54 caliber I assume to be better for bear. The barrel is signed and dated 1846 and he built it with a Golcher flintlock. Shows his faith in the flintlock.
Me, I have shot and built both and I will take a well tuned flintlock 2 to 1 over a percussion!
Dennis
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My question is: What are the differences between the "old" T/C lock geometry, and the new improved version.
Then...how do I convert my old one...??
I recently inherited an older (late 1970's vintage) T/C flint Hawken. Replaced the broken frizzen with one from Dixie and she sparks good. The barrel has the "slotted " vent liner. I recently stumbled upon the revised liner that installs with an allen wrench and is "coned" inside and out.
Haven't taken the rifle to the range yet...looking for comments, advice...whatever you guys with T/C flint experience can offer.
Thanks.
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Over the years, like most companies, T/C has made improvements to just about every component that goes into the making of their lock assemblies. As a result a true 1970's vintage lock has had improvements on many parts like tumblers, springs, hammers, frizzens, the geometry, etc.
For the Flintlock ignition improvements in general, T/C's late '90s redesigned Flint lock includes a hammer that is both taller and has a different angle of attack...and a different Frizzen.
Those improvements along with the improved vent liner completely rejuvenated T/C's Flintlock reliability since then.
Where flints used to have short flint life and often shatter because of the old style hammer's too square / straight on delivery into the frizzen...as well as quickly eating a horizontal groove across the frizzen face...they no longer shatter and with the new style lock, it's not uncommon to shoot a couple of 50 shot range sessions on the same flint, where previously the flint life often averaged 20-25 shots in old style locks.
OLD STYLE T/C FLINT LOCK ASSEMBLY
Note severe "S" shape to hammer, and the "notch" in the outside edge of the hammer at about 12 o'clock right above the hammer mounting screw.
Also note that the old style hammer is quite short with the bottom jaw just barely clearing the fence...and the frizzen is case colored.
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NEW STYLE T/C FLINT LOCK ASSEMBLY
Note the much more gentle "S" curve shape (and no notch), it’s much taller with the lower jaw clearing much higher above the fence, the frizzen is solid jet black color.
3/4" wide x 7/8" long Tom Fuller black English flints worked best for me on these medium sized locks of several I tried, averaging 60-80 shots rarely knapping, and more if they're knapped as they wear.
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Thank you for the detailed tutorial on T/C locks. When I got this rifle, the frizzen was broken off. It has been replaced by a(new) black one. Is it possible to simply replace the old style hammer with one of the new design and achieve the kind of improvements you mention ??
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Such elegant locks,especially the wave crest pan version.I have seen parts for these
listed somewhere but don't recall who had them. Maybe TRS.
To use the L&R Manton,the inset of the breech wouldn't be any deeper than the thickness of the lock plate
so only about 1/4" would be taken from the width across the breech of a double barrel.
At the last CLA Show in Lexington,I saw a beautiful double,a 20 garuge I thing,modern made an I was
told the locks were mine but I don't remember if there was ant inset of the locks or not. It sure was an elegant
feather light gun.
Bob Roller
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Thank you for the detailed tutorial on T/C locks. When I got this rifle, the frizzen was broken off. It has been replaced by a(new) black one. Is it possible to simply replace the old style hammer with one of the new design and achieve the kind of improvements you mention ??
I wouldn't say just adding a new style hammer to a lock that old will match the performance of a complete new style lock assembly from the late 90's redesign but it should add some improvement.
NOTE: If you get a new style hammer, you must also get the matching new style top jaw and jaw screw...the old jaw and screw do not fit the new hammer frame.
If the internals of that 70's vintage lock are still original, most of the internals have also been upgraded over the decades, all geared towards performance improvements. So if you're planning to get that old of a vintage lock working at 100% reliability like today's current production locks so you can start using it regularly, you might as well just replace the whole lock assembly.
Or at least get the current production items like the new style tumbler, sear, and matching new style bridle plate and screws, etc.
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Where can one get the replacement T/C locks? It is my understanding that T/C no longer sells them.
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RMCSports used to have parts for them...maybe they also have a complete lock assembly...you could give them a call...as well as other BP supply places.
Here's RMC: http://www.rmcsports.com/catalog.htm
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L&R's RPL line includes a TC flint replacement.
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just to add my lock is a 1977 and now performs at about 95% as good as my siler. only change was my installing new style hammer.
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good to see that the op's problem got solved, but i wonder what was the real difference 'tween the old (not working well) and new (working well) touch hole liners?
yes - there's more understanding, setup and maintenance required with rock locks, but once it's all understood and cared for, i still think they're the overall better ignition system than caps. to each their own, it's all good.
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My experience as a range officer would tend to back up what RFD just posted. Lot of time spent unclogging those little gas paths.
KW
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Flintlocks put the FIRE back in fire-arm.