AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: alex e. on July 09, 2013, 06:09:26 PM
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At an event this weekend we were talking about it. As it has some characteristics that interest me. and i was wondering.: Does anyone know where this gun resides?
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Jack Brooks made me an interpretive copy of it back in the late 1990's. I'm sure he wasn't working from the original, but he might know who the owner is.
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At an event this weekend we were talking about it. As it has some characteristics that interest me. and i was wondering.: Does anyone know where this gun resides?
Would love to discuss this rifle.
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Hey, how about that 19?
I'd love to see that, too.
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I believe there was some discussion here a while back regarding this rifle. It was implied that some additional information had been uncovered which may point toward an origin or owner, however I do not recall seeing anything since. ??? I don't have the book in front of me but I think I'm recollecting the appropriate rifle - this one has the big volute on the butt, and the civet cat/headdress-ed figure, right?
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That'd be the one. Shumway put it in the Berks co. section of RCA vol1 right after the John Schreit (#18) rifle.
Some guns from Scandinavia were discussed here a while back. They also display a similar volute carving. One of these also appeared in RCA, I believe as a "rifle of uncertain origin". I'm not suggesting they're connected... just an observation. They display much different architecture.
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I believe there was some discussion here a while back regarding this rifle. It was implied that some additional information had been uncovered which may point toward an origin or owner, however I do not recall seeing anything since. ??? I don't have the book in front of me but I think I'm recollecting the appropriate rifle - this one has the big volute on the butt, and the civet cat/headdress-ed figure, right?
This is my gun. It will be part of a display, beginning with this upcoming Baltimore show I believe. A also believe it will be displayed at the NRA. I can't state all the details yet, but a few people have been told the particulars. Essentially, there is a sister gun, by the same hand, signed. Very early moravian. This enabled this particular gun to be tracked down in the records, to the very date, maker, and the person it was made for - which explains both the figure on the buttplate, as well as the panther on the trigger guard. Assuming the person the gun was made for actually carried it with him, the gun would have been at some very historic 18th century events since the person is well documented in historical records. Very well known maker as well.
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If you'd entertain questions, I have a few.
Alex E.
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Questios and maybe a good photo or two, or three, or more, please? Heart pumping in anticipation.
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Ask away. But I'm not the one responsible for the exhibit being put together, so I'm not going to steal their thunder, so to speak - nor am I qualified to. And, I may not know the answer.
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This gun has me curious on a few levels.I own a well made copy of said arm.
A few of its features interest me in regards to other types [French arms]
Are there any markings on the barrel? The.66 cal. Octagon to round sounds a bit French to me.Are there any markings anywhere?
the length of the octagon section?A wedding band transition?
The French butt plate.The engraving is not french for sure.
The carving on breech tang is more European to me,as is the Entry RR pipe carving. i have seen very similar carving on some French arms.As the upper molding forward the lock panels,Another euro. feature as well.
I'd be thrilled to know the maker[ I can keep a secret]
And see the sister gun.
Many thanks in advance.
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There is a sister gun (in my opinion only) that Shumway presented in his Muzzle Blasts article in November 1982. It has a rifle guard very similar to that on #19 but a round toe. Walnut stocked, with a Reading or maybe Lncaster sideplate. The patchbox end is brass and hinged, very simple Reading finial. The entry thimble is nearly identical. The barrel is short, 36", .67 bore and octagon to round. The buttplate is not specifically French but of a fowling piece type. Note that others don't see it as clearly related to 19 as I do. But if from the same hand or shop it indicates use of scavenged parts or at least a variety of sideplates, buttplates, etc.
Alex, I sent you a PDF in an email.
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This gun has me curious on a few levels.I own a well made copy of said arm.
A few of its features interest me in regards to other types [French arms]
Are there any markings on the barrel? The.66 cal. Octagon to round sounds a bit French to me.Are there any markings anywhere?
the length of the octagon section?A wedding band transition?
The French butt plate.The engraving is not french for sure.
The carving on breech tang is more European to me,as is the Entry RR pipe carving. i have seen very similar carving on some French arms.As the upper molding forward the lock panels,Another euro. feature as well.
I'd be thrilled to know the maker[ I can keep a secret]
And see the sister gun.
Many thanks in advance.
We believe the sister gun was most likely the maker's personal rifle. The customer, an Indian chief who was close to the moravians (probably not someone who you would have heard of without looking him up) requested a gun almost identical to the maker's personal gun, except for some alterations popular to Indian customers: namely the european style buttplate, octagon to round smooth bore barrel, as well as the engraving. The engraving on the butt plate is symbolic to this particular chief's family. The engraving on the trigger guard, with the lance, is also symbolic to him personally. It is impressive what they have put together. Hopefully at some point you can see the exhibit and the research, and form your own opinion about whether they are correct. If this is correct, and in my opinion there is just too much circumstantial evidence for it not to be, it puts a 1750's date on this gun. I love the gun regardless of all this, but I do think it is interesting.
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Tatonka
Thanks very much for the info.Please keep us updated when you can let the "cat out of the bag".
RCA #19 is a wonderful early rifle and I look forward to some of it's mystery being solved!!!
All the best!!
Mitch Yates
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Tatonka, Thank you for sharing what you can. I to am looking foreword to hearing " The Rest Of The Story."
All these guns are a piece of history but to know the history . What a rare treat. JIM
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You are welcome. I will definitely do so.
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For us folks in the west who aren't able to make it east for these displays/shows, will something be published? Possibly in Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts (NMLRA) or American Rifleman (NRA). Or here after the display is up.
Very... very... interested.
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For us folks in the west who aren't able to make it east for these displays/shows, will something be published? Possibly in Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts (NMLRA) or American Rifleman (NRA). Or here after the display is up.
Very... very... interested.
I'm not responsible for what is going on, so I can't say. But the people doing it have done this before, and I believe there are videos and documentation online, from their last exhibit - which was amazing.
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Tatonka, what do you think of the relatedness of the smooth rifle in the Nov 1982 MB article to RCA To me the guard looks about the same; also the entry thimble, stock design similar but more fowler-ish, tang carving similar, etc.
differences:the sideplate is more generic and later, the lock moldings are different, definitely a more fowler ish stock design. I think it's 10 years later than RCA 19.
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Thanks a BUNCH, now I am totally confused. I have a stock and barrel that I am itching to get started on. I have seen 4 or 5 different guns that I want to build using these parts now here you come and muddy the water again by show another that I really like.
Great rifle fairly plane with just enough makeup to be really interesting, Oh we were talking about the gun! :o
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Tatonka, what do you think of the relatedness of the smooth rifle in the Nov 1982 MB article to RCA To me the guard looks about the same; also the entry thimble, stock design similar but more fowler-ish, tang carving similar, etc.
differences:the sideplate is more generic and later, the lock moldings are different, definitely a more fowler ish stock design. I think it's 10 years later than RCA 19.
It is certainly from the era, and is similar. Very similar barrel, with attributes of booth a fowler and a rifle. Obviously the butt stock has a completely different architecture - but also one that was popular with Indians of the era. In that, both of these guns seem to be a mix of two different worlds, I think they are similar. We know that the old moravian makers did make guns for indians, and even lived among them. As far as any indication that the two guns are directly related, I couldn't tell you from the old photos in the article. Any idea of where the gun is now?
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Thanks a BUNCH, now I am totally confused. I have a stock and barrel that I am itching to get started on. I have seen 4 or 5 different guns that I want to build using these parts now here you come and muddy the water again by show another that I really like.
Great rifle fairly plane with just enough makeup to be really interesting, Oh we were talking about the gun! :o
This all started when I asked a maker whom you all know to make a copy of the gun. As it turns out, somebody had been searching for it for a long time, and ended up asking him about it. He's like, "yeah, I know where that gun is."
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Tatonka, what do you think of the relatedness of the smooth rifle in the Nov 1982 MB article to RCA To me the guard looks about the same; also the entry thimble, stock design similar but more fowler-ish, tang carving similar, etc.
differences:the sideplate is more generic and later, the lock moldings are different, definitely a more fowler ish stock design. I think it's 10 years later than RCA 19.
It is certainly from the era, and is similar. Very similar barrel, with attributes of booth a fowler and a rifle. Obviously the butt stock has a completely different architecture - but also one that was popular with Indians of the era. In that, both of these guns seem to be a mix of two different worlds, I think they are similar. We know that the old moravian makers did make guns for indians, and even lived among them. As far as any indication that the two guns are directly related, I couldn't tell you from the old photos in the article. Any idea of where the gun is now?
I don't see any Moravian qualities (relatedness to any of the Bethlehem or Christians Spring guns) in either RCA 19 or the 1982 MB article smooth rifle. Of course these guys were capable of working in many styles; Albrecht worked in many places in Europe and his work at Lancaster (presumably) is quite different from other work attributed to him.
The guards of RCA19 and the 1982 MB article gun are too similar to be coincidence. It seems to me that either such guards were available as imports or were cast here from similar molds. Both guns seem to have an odd mix of parts, which often makes us think the maker(s) used a combination of used and new parts. The lock on the 1982 MB article gun is quite early and banana shaped; probably the earliest feature on that gun.
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Tatonka, what do you think of the relatedness of the smooth rifle in the Nov 1982 MB article to RCA To me the guard looks about the same; also the entry thimble, stock design similar but more fowler-ish, tang carving similar, etc.
differences:the sideplate is more generic and later, the lock moldings are different, definitely a more fowler ish stock design. I think it's 10 years later than RCA 19.
It is certainly from the era, and is similar. Very similar barrel, with attributes of booth a fowler and a rifle. Obviously the butt stock has a completely different architecture - but also one that was popular with Indians of the era. In that, both of these guns seem to be a mix of two different worlds, I think they are similar. We know that the old moravian makers did make guns for indians, and even lived among them. As far as any indication that the two guns are directly related, I couldn't tell you from the old photos in the article. Any idea of where the gun is now?
I don't see any Moravian qualities (relatedness to any of the Bethlehem or Christians Spring guns) in either RCA 19 or the 1982 MB article smooth rifle. Of course these guys were capable of working in many styles; Albrecht worked in many places in Europe and his work at Lancaster (presumably) is quite different from other work attributed to him.
The guards of RCA19 and the 1982 MB article gun are too similar to be coincidence. It seems to me that either such guards were available as imports or were cast here from similar molds. Both guns seem to have an odd mix of parts, which often makes us think the maker(s) used a combination of used and new parts. The lock on the 1982 MB article gun is quite early and banana shaped; probably the earliest feature on that gun.
I think you will enjoy the exhibit if you get a chance to see it.
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Tatonka, thanks for coming back and updating everyone on this. Sounds extremely exciting and I'm sure we're all looking forward to seeing where all this goes.
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I think you will enjoy the exhibit if you get a chance to see it.
No doubt! There are few guns I'd rather see.
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I'm with RAT on this one. Since there is no way I'm going to make either of the venues mentioned I would humbly request that the information be shared with the rest of us once the display has run its course. A video or better yet an article in MB would be sincerely appreciated. I would be happy just to hear the story. Since looking at the pictures I have this nagging desire to shoulder the gun just to see how it feels. To my eye the butt area is somewhat heavy but I'll bet it comes up well. Thanks, Jack
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I'm with RAT on this one. Since there is no way I'm going to make either of the venues mentioned I would humbly request that the information be shared with the rest of us once the display has run its course. A video or better yet an article in MB would be sincerely appreciated. I would be happy just to hear the story. Since looking at the pictures I have this nagging desire to shoulder the gun just to see how it feels. To my eye the butt area is somewhat heavy but I'll bet it comes up well. Thanks, Jack
I will make sure that the exhibit information will be made available on way or the other. The gun feels good to me, hence my asking for a copy. You could carry the gun through the woods with ease. With most of these old guns, the butt is really much bulkier even than it appears in the photos, but surprisingly, unlike many beautiful later guns which have thinner butts, still feels balanced. I suppose I also would prefer heavy in the butt than heavy in the barrel.
ETA: email me and let me know where you are located. Maybe you can handle the gun at some point if you make it anywhere near the east coast.
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This is great stuff! I am looking forward to more details being able to be released once the exhibit is open.
In "Moravian Gun Making", there are several mentions of Albrecht stocking guns for the Indians, including stocking one for "the big Shawanos" (Shawnee). Maybe...........
It is very cool that these details are still coming to light after all this time has passed. Kudos to all of you that have the ability to make these connections.
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Just curious, what Baltimore Show are you talking about? Maybe I missed something somewhere along the line.
Bob
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Just curious, what Baltimore Show are you talking about? Maybe I missed something somewhere along the line.
Bob
MD Arms Collectors Assoc.
http://www.baltimoreshow.com/ (http://www.baltimoreshow.com/)
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Yes you did ;D The Baltimore Antique Arms and Armor show. March every year.
Timonium Fairgrounds. 1100+ tables
of nothing made after 1899. Ya gotta go if ya aint never been there. Tell em suzkat sent ya.
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March?!? We need to wait until March 2014 to hear the details?!? Man ... where do I go to buy some patience?
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hmmmph. Well I was hoping you were involved, given your research ability and familiarity with the Moravian Archives. Shoots that idea all to heck.
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No, not involved ... though I'd be happy to be so!
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OK. Been to that show. Just making sure there wasn't a longrifle specific show that I hadn't heard about. Thanks
Bob