AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Buck on August 04, 2013, 04:31:20 PM
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Take a look at the previews for Octobers auction. There are some exquisite pieces on the block. Dr. Sirkins collection, the Schreyer and Ernst are spectacular.
Buck
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WOW!!!!!
The Kuntz does it for me. That gentleman had very good taste.
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Agreed the Kuntz is spectacular. Not a bad one in the bunch.
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There are some spectacular Kentuckies there. The Albrecht is super rare.
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_346_sh.asp
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The Albrecht there: not signed, I assume, but attributed to Albrecht on the basis of the carving. What do you all think of that attribution? (I don't mean to suggest, by asking, that I'm skeptical. I'm really just trying to learn what, in particular, makes this convincingly an Albrecht.)
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Jeez Louise... what a collection! Good to see these longrifles. Thanks for posting this Buck.
dp
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PPatch your welcome,
spgordon,
Kind of a touchy subject that goes both ways. The one that is most entertaining and hypocritical in my mind is the "Haga" saga. A man that supposedly produced rifles in the pre & post Revolutionary era. Rifles of his time frame were often bulkier with a straight comb, but everything with a roman nose and the Reading A typical carving is attributed to him. That is the accepted label, but unsigned rifles from other schools with identical carving, inlays, and architecture paralleling with their signed counterparts are beat to death because they aren't signed. A great rifle is a great rifle, I have a signed Samuel Pannabecker that is an identical match to every attributed Haga out there, the common belief is he apprenticed under Haga. Samuel was born in 1794 and Haga died in 1796, if this is true he was an incredibly capable 2 year old. I have often thought that all of the Haga's with the Pannabecker stamp on the bottom of the barrel might actually be Pannabecker rifles, and maybe everyone is obsessing over a ghost that started out as a theory. Maybe the stamp on the bottom of the barrels were the makers mark in that area. I think this is a great gun, but it goes back to the common hypocrisy of collecting; If it is on one mans table its not what it appears to be and isn't valuable, but when it passes to another's table it becomes what it really is and it triples in value. Only an observation.
Buck
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Buck
As one who finds Reading area gun to be some of the most interesting I agree.If we are going to use the name Haga to label these guns we should refer the guns as "Haga School" rather than attribute them to Haga as the maker.There has to be at least two or three other unknown makers working at the same time as Haga in a similar style.
Mitch
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It has always seemed ... odd to me that any guns can be attributed to a man without at least one signed gun by him to match or compare the unsigned ones to.
But I was really writing about the Albrecht rifle up for auction. What are the tell-tale signs there that lead the auction house to attribute it to Albrecht (and not to others)?
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PPatch your welcome,
spgordon,
Kind of a touchy subject that goes both ways. The one that is most entertaining and hypocritical in my mind is the "Haga" saga. A man that supposedly produced rifles in the pre & post Revolutionary era. Rifles of his time frame were often bulkier with a straight comb, but everything with a roman nose and the Reading A typical carving is attributed to him. That is the accepted label, but unsigned rifles from other schools with identical carving, inlays, and architecture paralleling with their signed counterparts are beat to death because they aren't signed. A great rifle is a great rifle, I have a signed Samuel Pannabecker that is an identical match to every attributed Haga out there, the common belief is he apprenticed under Haga. Samuel was born in 1794 and Haga died in 1796, if this is true he was an incredibly capable 2 year old. I have often thought that all of the Haga's with the Pannabecker stamp on the bottom of the barrel might actually be Pannabecker rifles, and maybe everyone is obsessing over a ghost that started out as a theory. Maybe the stamp on the bottom of the barrels were the makers mark in that area. I think this is a great gun, but it goes back to the common hypocrisy of collecting; If it is on one mans table its not what it appears to be and isn't valuable, but when it passes to another's table it becomes what it really is and it triples in value. Only an observation.
Buck
Well said, Buck
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Ed,
Thank you, it's not a shot at anyone just an observation. I was at the Prairie Show this weekend and was looking at 2 unsigned Beyer rifles (both were absolute magnificent examples of this mans work) a less experienced collector questioned how we knew it was a Beyer rifle. Louie Parker quickly answered and stated that a signature is not only the name on a barrel, but that the architecture, furniture, and carving is also a "signature" of a mans work. There in I rest my case, buy safe sell safe.
spgordon,
I don't know, there was a rifle (I think) that was attributed to him and was later attributed to John Valentine Beck from the Christian Springs Community in North Carolina. Mr. No Gold or Eric K can probably answer that question.
Buck
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Gentlemen, I feel as if I have to comment on the Haga issue. First and formost is how did all these various guns, that appear to be similar, get attributed to one man. Basically it is the oldest story in written history; back in the 40's a great number of these guns started to appear in the Reading, Pa. area. Early researchers only knew, at that time, of one documented gunsmith from the Boro of Reading. The attribution evolved from there.
And then about 40 years ago a rifle with similar characteristics showed up with 'Reading' engraved on the patch box cover. Katie bar the door "problem solved" but in actuality it was not. The issue became clouded and someone had a love fest with the name Wolfgang Haga and the myth perpetuated. Incorrectly, but with enough momentum to become believed and forwarded as fact.
I'm telling you straight out; Haga might have very well personally made several of the guns attributed to him but the other 70-80 were not by his hand. Possibly half may have been made in his shop by journeymen or apprentices but it is my firm belief he made very few individual rifles after blowing up his hand in the late 1750's.
As Buck states there were at least 4 other gunsmiths working in the Boro of Reading from 1780 until 1800. Whether or not they were supervised by Haga will never be answered until we find a ledger or document telling us who did what and when they did it. Haga probably continued a gunsmith enterprise employing a number of artisans up until a few years before his death but I can't prove it. Pure speculation and not worth a penny!!! It is not speculation, however, that several gunsmiths continued with the Boro of Reading patterns into the early 1800's. After Haga died.
So what do we have? Absolutely nothing!!! Other than the fact the majority of guns found attributed to Haga were found in the vicinity of Reading, Pa. And the continuation of the Haga attribution is a dangerous and misleading myth started many years ago by individuals who decided to make up a story to fill in the blanks for the prestigious publication being worked on at the time by my friend Joe Kindig.
Old Joe would be the first to tell you that everything in his book is subject to revision and futher research efforts.
He was great from that prospective and his challenge has been a wonderful motivator to many modern day researchers.
I ask only that the reader gets use to referring to these 'Haga Type' guns as examples from the 'Boro of Reading'. That is the only thing that can be proved.
I also state the old adage "buyer be ware" applies to any item offered for sale in the antique market today just as it applied to anything for sale in the past. Do your homework. ask questions. Get the history of the gun before you sell your wife's car to buy one of these gems. HIB
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What are the tell-tale signs there that lead the auction house to attribute it to Albrecht (and not to others)?
Well, my first guess would be dollar signs. hahahahahahahahaha
Seriously, I don't have a clue on this one. Can't tell much from that one little picture and I've not seen that rifle before. Maybe it's signed? Perhaps someone is comparing it to the lone signed rifle that is generally believed to have been made after the move to Lititz.
Hopefully they will have more and better pictures once they finalize the catalogs and upload them.
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Excellent points Henry, I agree that the Haga handle on all of these rifles is inappropriate. Unfortunately the term "Haga rifle" has been used for so long, that people use it without thinking anymore, and when used, most people know what guns you're referring to. Unfortunately when you say "Boro of Reading" rifle, that term could be used for several gunsmith (totally unrelated to the Haga type rifles) in the Reading area. It sure would have made it simpler if old Wolfgang had signed at least one gun! Maybe we can call them Haga style rifles, that's what I usually do anyhow. Oh well, it makes for interesting conversation.
Frank
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Well, my first guess would be dollar signs. hahahahahahahahaha
Seriously, I don't have a clue on this one. Can't tell much from that one little picture and I've not seen that rifle before. Maybe it's signed?
Other rifles listed for auction are noted as "signed," so I'd assume that any of them that aren't tagged as "signed" aren't signed...
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Thanks Buck for the heads-up, Rich for the link, and all for a good discussion.
Those are some awesome guns regardless... sure hope they add more pictures.
Jeff
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Henry,
Well put, Thank you.
Buck
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Eric,
Thanks for the reply.
Buck
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I am brand new to this group. I was wondering if anyone would venture a guess as to what the Kuntz guns would go for. I never had an interest in muzzle loaders, but with the American Rifleman (NRA) July issue about the American Long Rifle coinciding with my discovery that my 5th gr grand uncle from Lancaster was a member of Thompson's Rifle Battalion I have become interested. As you probably are aware this Battalion became the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment. Captain Parr's company was detached from the first Pa and assigned to Daniel Morgan.Timothy Murphy was a member of Parr's Company.
With my new interest in the long rifle I went to the Dixon Gun makers Fair last month to learn more and brought $1,000 to possibly buy one. Perusing the tables I saw a repro of a gun made by a Jacob Kuntz of Allentown and thought that's interesting, I have ancestor Jacob Kuntz from Berks Co! Turns out that he was a great grandson of my ancestor.
Now I am obsessed and must have a Pennsylvania long rifle but since the Kuntz repo price was $20,000 I was a little short. I decided to go with a Jim Chambers Kit. With shared Jacob Kuntz DNA, being a retired carpenter and help from this site I think I can be successful.
My carpenters union is waiting for the Obama recovery but I could wait no longer so I am flipping houses. At two a year and $30,000 profit each I need to know how many years until I have enough for the Jacob Kuntz guns at Julia's. ;D
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Keep working! We'll let you know when you're getting close! ;D
Depending on just how 'extraordinary' that rifle is, I'd guess 75/100K would be a reasonable price. That doesn't mean it will necessarily sell for a reasonably price!
Good luck, and Welcome to the forum!
John
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Welcome Fredfons:
My thought would be that "Fredfons" has a magnificent eye for quality and merit and that if he has any age on him, he will need a third job to buy any of the guns displayed and have time to enjoy it. ;) We can easily help him join our collecting stewardship at a more reasonable, achievable level if he contacts any of us personally by email ( click on any of our names in the postings and we will be glad to assist you.)
Hurricane
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Thanks for the warm welcome. At 60 I think I'll hit the lottery before I make enough for a Kuntz.
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John,
Can I stop working yet? Fredfrons welcome.
Buck
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John,
Can I stop working yet? Fredfrons welcome.
Buck
Close I'd say,, very close!
I think I could live with either Armstrong so will leave the Kuntz up for grabs!
And if these rifles are the highlights of the guys collection, I wonder what's on the next rung down?
John
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I think he had 7 Samuel Hawken rifles that were pictured somewhere in the late 50's. I could be wrong Louie might remember, anyway they were dubbed the Sirkin 7. I know where 2 of them are at. He had one $#*! of a collection. They are all great rifles, I'm particular to the Schroyer. I do know where there is a better Beyer though ;)
Buck
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Buck I think you are thinking of James Serven? with the Hawkens....
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Matt you are correct! Excuse the error, I am not that great with names anymore.
Buck
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Yikes that Adam Ernst is beautiful. Anybody wanna make a low interest balloon loan?
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I sort of like the funky patchbox on the Adam Angstadt Kutztown rifle. The Kuntz rifle carving is spectactular and I would also agree the Albrecht attribution is a real stretch. I would say EK stated the reason for attribution pretty clearly.
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These guns were at the Hartford show and if you asked you could handle them!!
Trouble is you could not focus on one. :o
There was a J.P. Beck at a different table that was so good several of us
thought it might be a repro , but in the end it looked right!!
Gus
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FYI
According to James Julia auctions, there will be additional views of each gun added to the web site about mid-September, when the auction catalog is completed.
Jeff
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Definitely some awesome pieces. Way out of my league, but always enjoy looking at these guns.
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According to the great pinyone there are an additional 50 more kentuckies in the auction
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What ever happened to the "Great Pineyone" ? Is he still on here under another name? I never see his post anymore..
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He's gone underground. Not in the literal sense. Just no longer on the forum.
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There's been some more pictures added, the Schreyer is outstanding.
Buck
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Am I going blind, or is the A. Albrecht gun missing from the Serkin photo line up? Did someone have doubts about it? Far as I know, there is only one rifle signed A. Albrecht and a lock found in a barn in New England bearing his name, that are extant at this time. The Serkin gun must have been an attribution because the discovery of an unseen piece would set off sky rockets in the KY world.
Not heavily discussed here is the Sudjansky KY pistol collection; that is one of the top collections in the country. Surprised that he is selling them.
Dick
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All of the Kentucky rifles and pistols have finally been listed in Lot #2. Only take a look when you have lots of time.
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It does look like the Albrecht has been removed--or at least the attribution has (perhaps the rifle that had been identified as the Albrecht is still there but not identified as such any longer).
Several months ago I asked folks on the list whether the attribution made sense to them and everybody who wrote back, to the list and privately, said that they didn't see any grounds for the attribution at all.
I am not a collector and so may not understand the rules of the game, and I understand that buyers must beware. But it seems to me that auction houses should not be permitted to attribute rifles to famous makers simply because somebody who once owned the rifle (or who wants to sell it) identified them as such. I cannot get my head around why that isn't fraud?
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In the past I've been able to save the pics from Julia's auctions.It would seem that the pics from the online catalogue (not the highlights page which I can save)can no longer be saved to my computer.Anybody smarter with computers than me have any tricks to be able to do this????While I usually buy one of their auction catalogue the pics are never as good as the ones online.
Mitch
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There's some fine guns there and more KY pistols than I think I've ever seen at one place before! Wow!
Mitch, I have the same problem, and can't save anything...
John
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It's letting me save images. If you click on any item, another window opens with a series of detailed images of the gun. It is letting me save each of those images individually. At least it did on the few guns I tried.
I should say I am looking at this site (in case there is a different one associated with this auction):
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_346_sh.asp
-- Scott
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I used to own that Jacob sell, wish I still had it.
Buck
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The "Albrecht" is now a Jacob Metzer in the catalogue. Probably just a bookkeeping error that led to it being labeled wrong.
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I used to own that Jacob sell, wish I still had it.
Buck
Well you can again, with the raise of a hand and the stroke of a pen!
Wish I hadn't just bought a car!
John
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John,
That money went towards a better one. ;)
Buck
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Mitch,
I haven't been able to figure out how to save the photos either from the general catalog . I can zoom them and do a print screen to get a large view or even print screen the individual gun writeup but cannot save electronically. If you figure something out, let us know.
Van
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Compliments of a member here I have a way to save the pics.If someone has a better way please let me know but here is what I got so far.In the auction catalogue click on the picture you want to enlarge it so it pretty much fills the screen.On your key board press and hold "Alt" button and the press "PrtScn" button.This copies the web page from your screen.Open Windows "Paint" and hit "Paste".This should paste the captured screen shot.Then crop what you want and save a a jpeg. It took a little fooling around to get it figured out but I am able to save really good pics this way.
Mitch
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If you order catalog #2 by phone, be sure to mentio if you are amember of KRA or ALR :)
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Guys, I am just right clicking on the photos, and then choosing "save picture as" and sending it to "my pictures".
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The right clicking works fine with the few pictures shown on the preview.
But it doesn't work on the actual auction listings which show many more pictures. And it's some Great pictures of some excellent guns!
John
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JTR,
I agree with you. I cannot get the general catalog view to do anything electronically except for screen print. I did receive my catalog in the mail so I will have to be satisfied with that.
Van
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I was able to "save to" only from the "file" in upper left corner ( not right click) drop down window..saved the enlarged pictures beautifully.
Hurricane
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Hurricane,
Are you working in the Session 2 off the James Julia auction site? I can save the pictures from the Preview posting but not the auction listing. When I pull down the file window and hit "save as" all it saves is an HTML of the webpage. I can't get the actual pictures. I am going to have to try the procedure that Mitch outlined.
Van
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Mitch,
I did finally figure out your procedure. It does work, not easily, but I got what I wanted. Now, unfortunately, I want to save a lot of pictures! Thanks for the help.
Van
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Oh I got it, I was looking at the wrong batch of pics. Thanks Mitch.
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Glad it worked for you guys.Not a real handy way to do it but the pics are worth it ;) ;) ;) ;)
Mitch