AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: moleeyes36 on September 15, 2013, 10:44:38 PM
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At a club shoot yesterday we had an incident that could have been really tragic for one of our shooters. He was shooting a percussion .50 caliber Lyman Great Plains Rifle with GOEX 3fg powder. He'd been shooting for a couple of hours and he doesn't clean between shots until it gets hard to load. This is, as you know, a practice many shooters follow all the time. He returned from the firing line to the loading bench about 20 feet behind the firing line, put the rifle on half cock, removed the old cap and began to reload. He poured the powder from his can into his powder measure, covered the powder can spout as required in our club, and poured the powder down the barrel. He took a lubed patch, placed a ball on it, and using his short starter, started it down the bore. He then took his range rod and had just started to push the ball down the bore when all $#*! broke loose.
The rifle fired with a loud muffled sound sending the range rod and ball through the 3/4 inch plywood and shingle roof about 10 feet over his head and up through the branches of a tall pine. The badly twisted metal rod was recovered about 25 yards out on the range. When the range rod he was holding came flying out of the barrel it severely lacerated two of his fingers and broke one of them. Apparently that knocked his hand out of line with the bore and the ball didn't hit him. However, it certainly called for a fast trip to the emergency room after we got all the bleeding stopped.
Our best guess as to what caused the ignition was a smoldering ember back in the patent breech or even in the flash channel that was far enough back that the powder poured in the barrel didn't initially contact it. However, when he started the patched ball down the bore the resulting air being compressed ahead of the ball pushed the powder onto the ember.
I think there is a very good chance that had he wiped the bore with a wet patch between shots this might not have happened because (1) he might have contacted the ember with the wet patch and put it out (2) the compressed air ahead of the wet patch might have caused the ember to flare up and burn out (3) the extra time required to wipe the bore with a wet patch might have allowed the ember to die out on its own.
I always wipe the bore between shots with a wet patch because it seems to improve accuracy for me. But the added safety aspect is something to think about.
Mole Eyes
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Wow!! that's the first time EVER That I've heard of this happening. I bet the compressed air caused an ember to flare up. I've never believed that folks can have a tight enough combo to wipe the bore clean as they load. I use a .22 pillow ticking patch with a .490 roundball in a Green Mountain barrel. Its a very tight combo but I still have to wipe with a damp patch every 3rd shot or it gets to dirty to load.
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Y'all are saying "wet patch" - What is the patch wet with, alcohol?
dp
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Heaven knows everyone has their favorite patch lube and their favorite cleaning solution. I personally prefer a wiping solution of 50/50 water and 90 or 99% isopropyl alcohol. I spray enough on a cleaning patch to thoroughly dampen (not soak) a cleaning patch, run it down the bore, and follow that up with a dry patch. It leaves a pretty clean and very dry barrel. This works for me but I also don't use greasy, heavy patch lubes.
Mole Eyes
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PPATCH, I use 90% alcohol using both sides of the patch. The Alcohol dries almost instantly. It keeps the bore in the same shape shot after shot.
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I always leave my fired cap on until I'm on the firing line and then remove it and install a new cap thus I hope to cut down on the air going thru the powder charge and igniting the powder. Also I doubt that a wet patch would extinguish a glowing ember in my breech or the flash channel as both are not reached by a cleaning patch.FRJ
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I heard of this happening at Friendship a number of years ago. Once again the ball handle on the rod pushed the shooter's hand away from the ball. I use a spit patch and a dry patch between shots.
Mark
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Heaven knows folks can do whatever they want, but I don't agree that the approach of leaving the old cap on the nipple is a good plan if you're trying to reduce the chance of an ember igniting a fresh powder charge. Reducing the amount of air will only allow an ember to smolder longer like banking a wood stove at night. A wet cleaning patch will probably extinguish an ember if it makes contact which it will usually do unless it's lodged in the back of the patent breech or in its flash channel. That's one of the drawbacks of a cap lock gun with a patent breech.
In my view, if you don't remove the old cap and put the hammer on half cock then run a wiping patch or two down the bore (see points 2 and 3 in my previous post) before you put powder down the barrel you pays your money and takes your chances. A lot of shooters do just that, I only hope they don't do it when they're next to me at the loading bench.
Mole Eyes
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Thats why I always wipe between shots. I learned this 50 years ago. Even on my pistols. And something else
all of my steel ramrods have a round wood ball on top to push your hand out of the way just in case. Those
guys that use the antler horns on the end of their rod scare me. Saw a guy that lost his hand when one of
them went up through it. A smooth round ball will push your hand out of the way.
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Phil, you may have hit on what happen to the guy at our Saturday shoot. His steel range rod had a wooden ball on the end and something pushed his hand out of the way so the ball missed him. It appears that the large jag on the rod may have clipped him and done the damage.
Mole Eyes
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I wipe every shot using a flannel cleaning patch dampened by laying it on my tongue. One pass in and out. Next shot I turn it over and repeat
TC
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TC, that's an effective way to do it as long as you remember to turn it over for the second shot. If you forget and put the used side on your tongue it must taste pretty "tangy". :P
Mole Eyes
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The likely suspect is not the patch, ball, or powder, it's the "range rod". A metal range rod, with a nice comfortable handle, allows you to drive the ball down the barrel too forcefully, and too fast, (usually a single stroke). Can you say fire piston ?
Hungry Horse
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Fire Piston! Really or is this one of those "it could happen" deals? Do we have a documented case or better yet can you demonstrate this? I would think you would really have to create some velosity for this to actually happen. Bob
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Fire piston requires unvented breech in my experience.
Back to the OP (original post of thread), NO i'm not going to wipe for safety. Your range or range officer may require it. The state/fed/reg agency may pass laws requiring it. Lots of folks may adopt that practice, but i don't plan to.
Life is too short to spend too much time (a personal decision) over-safetyfying every aspect of everything we do all the time. Sometimes i strike the (book) match without even closing the cover. ;)
Safe shootin' y'all.
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Fire piston requires unvented breech in my experience.
Back to the OP (original post of thread), NO i'm not going to wipe for safety. Your range or range officer may require it. The state/fed/reg agency may pass laws requiring it. Lots of folks may adopt that practice, but i don't plan to.
Life is too short to spend too much time (a personal decision) over-safetyfying every aspect of everything we do all the time. Sometimes i strike the (book) match without even closing the cover. ;)
Safe shootin' y'all.
I don't think anybody cares if you wipe between shots or not, nor did anyone tell you too. Take a deep breath and relax.
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That"s way I always blow down the Barrel After my Last shot! I shoot a Flint and watch the stream of smoke come out of the touch hole till it stops! Let see what kind of discussion THAT brings up. Lol. ::)
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I can only tell you guys, that in the forty plus years I've been in this game, I have been around several unexplained discharges, and heard of many more. The one consistent piece of evidence, is that none of the ones I've been around, or heard of from reliable sources, were using the guns ramrod. They were all were using a range rod of some type. I don't know why people will believe in the old smoldering crud in the breech theory, that can't be proven, but won't even consider the fire piston theory, who's proof is just as elusive.
Hungry Horse
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Wade--Some of your posts are a mystery to me--Why would you encourage
people /new shooters to do any of the following
-drink dirty water full of chemicals
Not follow range officers directions
Local or state safety laws
As if our shooting sports don t have enough problems
Think about the shooter next to you
Sydney
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I don't know about the fire piston effect (I think it would need to be tighter and seal better anyways), but leaving the cap on or otherwise plugging the vent would probably prevent a cookoff. Those of you familiar with ML artillery practice will remember one of the steps known as "thumbing the vent" where a crewman wearing a thumbstall covers the vent to prevent air movement through it when a charge was rammed home. I personally remove the cap before loading simply because if it is tight, the air pressure can cause the bullet to rise back up after the rod is removed. But I wipe between shots anyway for consistency.
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Duca, explain how you blow down the muzzle without pointing the muzzle of your gun in an unsafe direction? If you are using a blow tube so your head isn't over the muzzle please proceed as you have been. If you are blowing directly into the muzzle I would like to dissuade you from continuing this unsafe practice which violates both the first and second rules of gun handling safety" "Treat every firearm as if it were loaded" and "Always point the muzzle in a safe direction". I would add a third cautionary rule - please don't encourage others to indulge in unsafe practices.
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Wade--Some of your posts are a mystery to me--Why would you encourage
people /new shooters to do any of the following
-drink dirty water full of chemicals
Not follow range officers directions
Local or state safety laws
As if our shooting sports don t have enough problems
Think about the shooter next to you
Sydney
because i'm a wild hair. pay me no mind. and it's supposed to be a free country.
also i didn't say that i would disobey any range officer ever.
you don't get me at all, don't worry about it. cheers.
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.... Sometimes i strike the (book) match without even closing the cover. ;)
Safe shootin' y'all.
I don't think anybody cares if you wipe between shots or not, nor did anyone tell you too. Take a deep breath and relax.
I was just taking the other stance. All previous replies had been on the other side of the fence. Nothing wrong with that i don't reckon. I'm all sorts of relaxed. ;D
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Fire Piston! Really or is this one of those "it could happen" deals? Do we have a documented case or better yet can you demonstrate this? I would think you would really have to create some velosity for this to actually happen. Bob
Didn't set any powder off but I was cleaning the oil out of my bore once upon a time with 90% alcohol and really pushing down hard and fast on the steel range rod. Before I cleaned I squirted some of the 90% alcohol down the bore. I pushed really hard and fast on the range rod and all of a sudden "Kapow" came out of my touchhole. Must have diesel'd the alcohol and ignited it from quick compression. A fellow shooter looked at me and said "What was that"?
Bob
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The "fire piston" and dieseling are both examples of the Universal Gas Law in physics. P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2. "T" is in degrees Kelvin. Since "normal" room temperature is 273 K if I rapidly reduce the volume by 1/2 I will double the temperature to 546 K. That will take a pressure of twice atmosphereic pressure or about 29 pounds. The ignition temperature of black powder is in the neighborhood of 783 K (950 F). So it will requre a very rapid reduction in volume bya factor of about 3 with a pressure of almost 60 pounds to achieve ignition temperatures. So it is "possible" for a strong person using a stout rod with a big handle to produce sufficient pressure to achieve ignition of black powder. BUT.........
There must be no heat loss to the barrel steel and no leakage of the air out through the vent.
These are very important limitations!
Best Regards,
John Cholin
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Here's a link to the equations related to a fire piston.
http://www.survivalschool.com/articles/Fire_Making/How_a_Fire_Piston_Works.htm
Like Long John and Old Bob said, one key to achieving a temperature increase is no leakage of gas. With powder down the bore, I believe powder would form a dam and prevent much air loss that way, but air leakage around the patch on the jag would probably be considerable unless the patch were really wet (ever had suction suck a patch off the jag and back down the barrel or a rod kind of bounce back a few inches when you took your hand off it? That's probably the level of gas seal you need to get a fire piston effect.)
The only nit I'd pick with Long J's analysis concerns his units of pressure. Pounds is a unit of force, pressure is force (or pounds) per unit area and would be expressed as pounds per square inch. So if I apply 15 pounds of force to a cleaning or loading rod, the pressure is going to be 15 lbs divided by the area of the bore, which for a .50 cal is going to be about 3/16 inch, for a psi around 75 lbs per square inch. (Actually, pressure will be less than that because some of the force applied to the rod has to overcome the friction of a tightly patched ball against the bore as you push it down.)
I've never seen a fire piston more than a foot long, so I think the best chance of seeing a fire piston effect in a long gun would be to push a tightly patched ball down the bore slowly until the last 6 or 8 inches, and then pushing as hard and fast as you can. Or, since this is a condition we're trying to avoid, you should push the ball all the way down slow and smooth and let air bleed out around the jag.
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This forum is amazing. Thank you gentlemen for explaining how the fire piston theory is unlikely but maybe not impossible. I get where 40 years of experience you can develop opinions and theories most of them have kept us alive for quite a few years. I also have seen some accidental discharges and after all of the heads cool, I try to first eliminate the guy operating the machine, tool or firearm. Most times that is nearly impossible. We screw up or make mistakes. That is why we need to always have that muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Always. Bob
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I, like many here, have been shooting these old traditional muzzle loaders for near 40 years (38), and I have yet to see one mishap on the firing line regardless if folks are running a damp patch after their shot or not. For a very long time, blowing down your barrel after the shot was a long time accepted exercise after firing, however in this political correct world we live in now, it's unacceptable,,, but Remington can continue to put out their 700 which has countless lawsuits against them for slam firing? I'll admit, I'm old school, and I still blow down my barrel after my shot. I know whether or not my rifle went off. Apparently in today's world there are those who don't know??? Run a damp patch if it makes you feel better. Try to explain the unexplainable if it makes you feel better. Now if the rules say no blowing down the barrel and you want to shoot at that particular event, then abide by the rules, or don't go.
Just my thoughts on some of the topics bought up here in this thread.
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Wow!! that's the first time EVER That I've heard of this happening. I bet the compressed air caused an ember to flare up. I've never believed that folks can have a tight enough combo to wipe the bore clean as they load. I use a .22 pillow ticking patch with a .490 roundball in a Green Mountain barrel. Its a very tight combo but I still have to wipe with a damp patch every 3rd shot or it gets to dirty to load.
Its happened numerous times at Friendship. First one I read of back in the 60s was a pistol and the shooter put a rod and ball through his wrist. Breech was found to he heavily fouled and was thought to hold a hot spot that ignited the charge when it was rammed.
There have been incidents on the trap range and one or two others I don't recall the details of.
All that is needed is a thick build up of fouling with nooks and crannies. If they hold heat over the ignition temp of the powder and the powder contacts or is pressed against the hot spot when the load is rammed ignition will occur. Given the 2000+ burn temp all that is needed is a place that is somewhat insulated to keep the temp over about 450 degrees.
Dan
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I usually blow a long breath ACROSS the muzzle and create a vacuum that seems to clear
the bore. I'll resume that method if I can ever finish the rifle I have started.
I have seen the TV special on the Remington 700 and can't understand why the fix wasn't
applied YEARS ago.
Bob Roller
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I reckon i can tan a deer trachea (for a blow pipe) and hang that on my string with the (short) starter. Animal parts are always p/c right? ;D
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Familiarity breeds contempt.
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I dont blow directly down the barrel anymore but sometimes blow into a cuped hand on the edge of the muzzle and get some air flow through the barrel.
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I see not one speculation about how that fellow maintained his caplock. Likely the same as those who blow out their caplock's drum on the line. NEGLECT !
Lon
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Back in the early 1970's when I started, I read the advice to swab between shots to reduce the chance of a hot ember igniting the next charge. This was especially true with paper cartridges.
It isn't that a wet patch would put the ember out, but that the air flushed in and out would make the ember burn itself out or blow it out.
Down at the Daniel Morgan, years ago, the shooter next to me had a gun discharge as he walked from the loading bench to the firing line. The hammer of his percussion cap pistol was still at half cock and the gun had not been capped yet. Thank God he had the pistol pointed in the air. Don't know why or how it happened. Something touched the powder off.
In my larger bore firearms and cannon, I not only swab between shots but wait a fair amount of time before reloading. Only because 40 years ago, I read that it was the thing to do.
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No, Pvt., the gun was not poorly maintained or neglected. The man takes good care of his firearms, modern and muzzle loading arms as well.
Mole Eyes
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No, Pvt., the gun was not poorly maintained or neglected. The man takes good care of his firearms, modern and muzzle loading arms as well.
Mole Eyes
To really determine this requires debreeching.
Its surprising what can be found at times.
The fire piston thing? Seems like we would have more incidents if this were the case.
Also from what I have read excess fouling is usually present due to long strings of shots without cleaning. Even cleaning the bore will not completely solve this problem since the buildup is in the breech.
Dan
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The "fire piston" and dieseling are both examples of the Universal Gas Law in physics. P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2. "T" is in degrees Kelvin. Since "normal" room temperature is 273 K if I rapidly reduce the volume by 1/2 I will double the temperature to 546 K. That will take a pressure of twice atmosphereic pressure or about 29 pounds. The ignition temperature of black powder is in the neighborhood of 783 K (950 F). So it will requre a very rapid reduction in volume bya factor of about 3 with a pressure of almost 60 pounds to achieve ignition temperatures. So it is "possible" for a strong person using a stout rod with a big handle to produce sufficient pressure to achieve ignition of black powder. BUT.........
There must be no heat loss to the barrel steel and no leakage of the air out through the vent.
These are very important limitations!
Best Regards,
John Cholin
If BP had an ignition temp this high it would be as easy to buy as Pyrodex or Smokeless since its low ignition temp is the primary reason its on the "explosives" list. I believe the ignition temp is somewhere around 570 degrees F. Though I have read of lower temps being cited. Pyrodex is about 700 and I did not bother to look up smokeless.
Dan
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I usually blow a long breath ACROSS the muzzle and create a vacuum that seems to clear
the bore. I'll resume that method if I can ever finish the rifle I have started.
I have seen the TV special on the Remington 700 and can't understand why the fix wasn't
applied YEARS ago.
Bob Roller
Several reasons I suspect. First even the people who had ADs with a 700 and were really upset could not get it to happen again in most if not all cases.
Next is not admitting you have a problem. If you admit there is a problem then more lawsuits start.
This also applies to some aspects of ML shooting and/or I should say "side lock shooting" since it applies to barrels (Remington had a problem with barrel steel too) and particularly in this discussion the high pressure contact points of the sear and tumbler. Locks wear out. Takes a lot of shooting but I know people that have shot a LOT of rounds through various old designs and things do wear out. 10000 rounds will result in at least one lock rebuild. Some of the locks we buy for MLs are unfit for service out of the box, as Bob well knows.
Dan
Dan
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Proper loading of a cannon requires a thumb stall to be applied to the vent during the loading procedure. It has been part of the safety measures for a long, long time. Early military manuals all stressed to plug the vent to keep from fanning a live ember. The bore was also sponged between firings. These procedures were NOT arrived at by conjecture; they were learned from hard experience. A rifle barrel is no different, other than they are less likely to have an ember since they are not loaded with a charge contained in a cloth bag.
It might also be worthwile to note that prior to these procedures being pretty much universally implemented guns crews were often manned by condemned prisoners chained to the guns. If they survived they might earn their freedom (perhaps there is a place for politicians in the shooting sports).
Keep in mind that removing the spent cap and not wiping are the exact opposite of these established procedures.
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Not trying to wander too far off the topic but of any or all documented cases of the early discharges that we are talking about, are they confined to one ignition type, percussion or flint, or are there an equal amount of each?
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A flintlock rifle that has a breech plug with a flat face, not one with a cavity in it like a patent breech has, leaves little opportunity for an ember to hide in the bore. If you wipe with a damp/wet patch between shots you will probably have no problems. Before someone gets their knickers in a knot, note I said probably.
I've only had experience with one early discharge, and that's the one I described at the beginning of this thread. That guy was shooting a percussion Lyman Great Plains Rifle, which has a patent style breech. He has since told me that, as he always does. he had not put the rifle on half cock and removed the old cap. He had left the hammer down on the old cap, did not wipe the bore (and hadn't in several shots), and started the reloading. When we picked up his rifle after the discharge, the hammer was back and we apparently incorrectly assumed he had moved it back. Perhaps it was back from striking something when he dropped it or perhaps it was from the force of the discharge. Draw your own conclusions.
Mole Eyes
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Proper loading of a cannon requires a thumb stall to be applied to the vent during the loading procedure. It has been part of the safety measures for a long, long time. Early military manuals all stressed to plug the vent to keep from fanning a live ember. The bore was also sponged between firings. These procedures were NOT arrived at by conjecture; they were learned from hard experience. A rifle barrel is no different, other than they are less likely to have an ember since they are not loaded with a charge contained in a cloth bag.
It might also be worthwile to note that prior to these procedures being pretty much universally implemented guns crews were often manned by condemned prisoners chained to the guns. If they survived they might earn their freedom (perhaps there is a place for politicians in the shooting sports).
Keep in mind that removing the spent cap and not wiping are the exact opposite of these established procedures.
The "stopping the vent" was to kill any fire in the parts of the cartridge, often a wool bag, still in the bore. It was then wormed out and the bore wet mopped. The wool bag prevented the powder from being excessively wet by the wet bore.
They did not require stopping the vent of a musket since the paper was a wad in FRONT of the powder charge.
Stopping the vent will do nothing about a hot spot in the fouling.
Dan
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While winnowing through the mountain of information in this thread, trying to find something other than theory, I realized, I don't recall one incident where a flintlock had an unexplained discharge. Oh, I've seen plenty of "unplanned" discharges with flintlocks, but none unexplained. What is everybody else's experience in this area?
Hungry Horse
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While winnowing through the mountain of information in this thread, trying to find something other than theory, I realized, I don't recall one incident where a flintlock had an unexplained discharge. Oh, I've seen plenty of "unplanned" discharges with flintlocks, but none unexplained. What is everybody else's experience in this area?
Hungry Horse
As I said in my post earlier, I don't recall any incidents of a muzzle loader (cap or flint) going off when it shouldn't have, and this spans 38+ years of shooting, from organized matches to unorganized gatherings, hunting, solo range trips, and just plain ol' "general shooting of these smoke poles. Perhaps I'm missing something, and I'm glad I am since I can not report on one incident.
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While winnowing through the mountain of information in this thread, trying to find something other than theory, I realized, I don't recall one incident where a flintlock had an unexplained discharge. Oh, I've seen plenty of "unplanned" discharges with flintlocks, but none unexplained. What is everybody else's experience in this area?
Hungry Horse
As I said in my post earlier, I don't recall any incidents of a muzzle loader (cap or flint) going off when it shouldn't have, and this spans 38+ years of shooting, from organized matches to unorganized gatherings, hunting, solo range trips, and just plain ol' "general shooting of these smoke poles. Perhaps I'm missing something, and I'm glad I am since I can not report on one incident.
Its been in Muzzle Blasts at least twice and I think times, that I know of the last I heard of was a shotgunner on the trap range.
Dan
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I have to agree with CandleSnuffer, I've never had any first hand knowledge of an AD in 40ish years.
I've heard stories, a friend of a friend, I knew this guy, etc. But no first hand, or even reliable second hand.
Now, STUPID mistakes I've seen, but not what has been described here.
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If you want to see some idiots in action see'' Bump loading a Napoleonic musket'' on youtube They are seeing how fast they can load and fire a smooth bore musket .They use an undersized ball pour the powder in , spit the ball down the bore then tap the weapon on the ground to seat it. They can do this 7 times a minute. I commented that I thought this was dangerous as I have seen premature discharges twice no one was hurt either time as the weapon just flashes in the shooters face. They called me a safety Nazi and not to get back on the site (a badge I'll wear with honor) The first rule of shooting is not to point a weapon at your self or anyone else.
Blunderbuss
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Lets take the NMLRA for instance, a long list of safety rules and every now and then a new one added, Usually when one is added someone has paid with the new rule with blood, treasure and possibly there life.
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Every safety rule is the result from someone being injured.
I could read the safety rules at work and tell who was injured for the most part.
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I saw it happen, once. The fellow used t-shirt material (just mic'd my tee shirt at .010") for patching in a .45, with a .440 ball - CVA percussion longrifle 1974-maybe? He said it was easy to load, but he had to wipe his bore every 2 or 3 shots or so.
Some feel it is obvious that his too-thin patch left something smoldering in the breech and when he was pushing the next one down, the powder ignited and sent the ball and rod pieces through his right hand - he was wiping every 2 or 3 shots. Perhaps the thin patch wasn't the real reason for the discharge, after-all. Perhaps wiping was?
Maybe we've been lucky but maybe it's due to the combinations & methods we use when shooting? Between just the two of us, not including our friends who load similarly, Taylor and I have shot ten's of thousands of rounds since we discovered thick patches and larger balls with no wiping and have never had anything like those ignitions happen to us or to those we shoot with - who use similar combinations. Totally, many tens of thousands of shots. One of our local friends (shoots 100 times or more every week of the year, without fail) has well over 10,000 rounds fired from each gun Taylor has built him + his others - no wiping between shots & no accidental discharges.
He uses thinner patches than we do, but still, no accidental discharges- and no wiping. We all use combinations that do not require wiping over a day's shooting. Is THAT an important factor? When we clean our rifles, the water does not turn jet black as it does for so many other people - is the amount of fouling left in our bores, a factor?
I totally understand what Dan is talking about concerning patent breeches and the possibility of burning hot fouling building in the breech area - or even against the breech plug of a flinter - perhaps especially with a coned vent liner.
This buildup of breech fouling must be especially prevalent in very hot dry conditions - yet these accidents mostly seems to happen back in the hot, but humid and MOIST Eastern USA where many people seem to use thin patching & wipe a lot because they HAVE to. Is that a factor?
I had one Eastern gentleman tell me he uses a very loose patch on an undersized brush for wiping between shots, so that it the cleaning patch doesn't push fouling down to the breech, but when he pulls it out, it bunches and pulls out all that built up fouling from the rifling - every shot - strange - we don't get built up fouling in the rifling - is that a factor?
Is WIPING between shots a major causal factor in accidental discharges because it pushes fouling down to the breech, fouling that ends up being compacted there, shot after shot, then could perhaps become a hard mass of especially hot fouling in the breech? Is wiping in that manner the ACTUAL cause of the buildup of fouling and of these ignitions? Is wiping itself a factor?
Wiping does sound like a good, solid idea from the safety standpoint- but is this actual or misconceived? Obviously these ignitions do and have happened - but WHY are they happening so often to people who are wiping so much? I really do believe THAT has to be addressed and not excluded from discussion or subsequent thought.
For some people and their load combinations, perhaps wiping between shots should be mandatory - if failure to wipe is a condition of these strange ignitions. But- so many of these ignitions happen to people who do wipe - why?
Perhaps the method of wiping should be addressed, rather than wiping or not?
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Thanks for commenting Daryl.
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Thanks for wiping Daryls.
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Frankly don't think a wet/damp patch run down the bore does much for safety other than giving things time to cool. But wet mopping as done for Artillery (which DOES leave cartridge remnants in the breech) is not practical.
A damp patch on a tight jag pushes fouling in front of it and can pack it in the breech. I guess if its wet or damp this can be a way to cool hot spots if they exist.
I do believe that a patent type breech is more likely the have this problem than a flat faced breech.
I do know that its possible the have heavy buildups in the breech. Its been repeatedly proven at Friendship that this CAN and DOES cause discharges as the projectile or wads are seated. Nor would I want to say it was a smoldering piece of patch since everything in front of the powder charge is surely going out.
HOWEVER, some bit of lint or loose cloth inadvertently pushed down while wiping that is damp and then dried and set to smolder from a subsequent shot????
There are a host of theoretical possibilities none are proven or disproven.
Given the lack of any scientific studies we are all guessing from the absolute "scientific proof" standpoint. All I know is what I have read in MBs over the years from actual accidents and subsequent examination of the firearms involved.
Saying one has never seen it when it may only happen every 100000 or more shots is meaningless to the person with severe damage to his hand. So while it may be rare if on the wrong end of the percentage it's far too many occurrences.
If on a Platoon sized patrol and contact is made and one man in the Platoon is killed its "light casualties" except for the dead, for them its 100%.
Dan
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At our club, a fellow shooting a .36 cal flintlock rifle was experiencing multiple flashes in the pan . He had definitely loaded the rifle with powder and patched ball, so kept poking at the vent to ensure it was open. Still nothing, so..he pulled the ball and dumped the charge.
I lent him a worm and he managed to get an astonishing amount of crud out of the breach.
Enough to actually block the vent which was at least 1/8 in + in front of the breach.
Hard nasty stuff. I personally believe that this is what can potentially cause an unintentional discharge. Especially when it gets hard and absorbs oil. He was cleaning/wiping in between shots, which he claimed was especially necessary with a small bore rifle. The jag he was using had the usual cupped base which IMO aids in the build up problem. The tightly patched jag pushes the fouling down the bore and there is no real way I can see that the patch can drag it back up.
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My point exactly, Bob. When I have pulled the breech plugs on a rifle before cleaning it - happened only twice in just over 40 years of shooting ML's, there was a ring of fouling around the corners of breech of the flinter - perhaps .010" thick, but only around the periphery of the plug, centre of the plug was bare steel with but one shot's light dust of fouling on it.
The other, was my .69 Sporting Rifle which experienced a rather odd leak from the top flat of the breech plug due to a long skinny air void in the casting. That one had been fired perhaps 20 to 30 times that day before the leak happened, so had that many shots without wiping. There was almost no buildup of fouling inside the breech - a typical Hawken-type cast breech from Track.
The tiny hole that let smoke trickle out of that top flat of the plug, merely had a thin skin of metal over the interior cavity, the metal breaking and arching up to let the gas out. The metal couldn't have been more than a couple thousandths thick where this 'leak' happened. The point is, there was no heavy buildup of fouling in THAT patent breech - perhaps due to it's design of having no right hand corners. Are right hand corners a factor in contributing to this so-far, phenomenon?
That, what turned out to be a honeycombed breech, had several spots with only a couple thou. metal over the inside cavities to the outside, yet the 165gr. 2F powder charges I'd been shooting did not blow them - only the one on the top flat. The reason, of course, was that the pounds per square inch on a tiny cavity is very low - obviously.
LB- you made me laugh.
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I have a hard time accepting the smoldering patch in the breech theory. If you load, black stuff, stripped stuff, round stuff, how in the heck does the stripped stuff, get behind the black stuff? And while we are visiting fantasy land, why doesn't the powder ignite the minute the fresh powder is introduced into the bore with the "smoldering patch"?
Hungry Horse
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I have a hard time accepting the smoldering patch in the breech theory. If you load, black stuff, stripped stuff, round stuff, how in the heck does the stripped stuff, get behind the black stuff? And while we are visiting fantasy land, why doesn't the powder ignite the minute the fresh powder is introduced into the bore with the "smoldering patch"?
Hungry Horse
See if this helps HH, it's my best understanding of the issue:
First off, It's not a patch, it's the crud. Accumulated crud from loose patching* or other unclean practices, possibly compounded by rough bores or complicated breeches.
*which leaves crud in the rifling upon loading-that builds up in some low number of shots and requires "wiping" for continued loading.
The spark/ember is just _barely_ alive (as 99.8% of fuel has been expended and there's very little oxygen left inside the bore) and then this RUSH of oxygenated air gets pushed past it AND it's pushed into contact with the fresh powder.
I'd even go so far as to say that embers happen fairly often (in cruddy bores), but usually burn themselves out quickly enough to not cause a problem. The old practice of blowing down the bore was all about burning that ember out, as well as softening the fouling for the next loading.
If you've seen the static electricity and black powder experiments, then you've seen how black powder does not automatically go POOF instantly anytime there is ever a spark (contrary to all the tales, wives or otherwise).
ALSO on that note, when BP seems to go POOF with zero provocation I blame it on BP DUST. Because fine dust has been (and continues to be) the cause of explosion of many grain elevators and manufacturing facilities (even pasta mfg facilities) since the beginning of the industrial age*. Logical to me that if dust is allowed to accumulate as it might, in a horn or such after some use, then a bit of static would be plenty for ignition. (*See: grain elevator explosion, mining accidents, dust explosion etc.)
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Hadn't thought of the dust possibility - certainly something is happening that isn't being explained and pushing crud down into the breech where it can compact and become a heat holding mass over time, is a definite possibility. Chunk shooter's I've read somewhere - maybe here seem to be in disfavour of the cap ignition system as their constant wiping pushes $#@* down into the ignition channels which can cause ignition problems - yes- think that was mentioned here at ALR- whereas the flinters didn't give that problem due to the side vent, not the patent breech system. Yes- wiping too much seems to be a definite possibility. :)
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Hey but also, i don't mean to confuse the issues. My reference to dust is about powder flasks explosions, apparently from static-as i have seen one of those reported here. With specific reference to the static/powder ignition testing video-which used nice clean fresh kernels of powder.
In that regard, I fully believe that dust fine enough to float in the air (contained in the vessel) could very well be ignited by static. (As happens in dusty mfg plants with some regularity-with "less flammable" materials.)
I'm of the crud accumulation/ember belief with regard to (WRT) the loading incidents.
And that a no-wiping-needed combo should be the goal of every load development exercise, for accuracy/consistency, convenience, AND safety. ;)
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Hadn't thought of the dust possibility - certainly something is happening that isn't being explained and pushing crud down into the breech where it can compact and become a heat holding mass over time, is a definite possibility. Chunk shooter's I've read somewhere - maybe here seem to be in disfavour of the cap ignition system as their constant wiping pushes $#@* down into the ignition channels which can cause ignition problems - yes- think that was mentioned here at ALR- whereas the flinters didn't give that problem due to the side vent, not the patent breech system. Yes- wiping too much seems to be a definite possibility. :)
I think (if I remember correctly and would have to go back into my Muzzle Blast issues to confirm) that the Bevel brothers used flint ignition. Makes complete sense to me when chunk shooting to use a flintlock.
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Candle Snuffer why do you reference chunk shooting and not all type of shooting. Just curious?
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All shooting disciplines, not just chunk. Should have added that.
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So, I have been following along OK in this topic and now if I read Candle Snuffer thinks that only flintlocks should be used in shooting competitions? Is that correct?
Michael
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Not what he said at all. He merely suggested it made sense for all disciplines that flint would possibly give fewer problems than caplocks.
That's how I read it.
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Very interesting conversation, Question,... I was taught in the early seventies to blow down the barrel between shots. I used this up until I found this site in 2011 and read several " horrific stories about this practice. I never had a problem. Was this a practice from, say 1770 or so, or was it something someone came up with in the 1970`s? Be gentle, I am " New to this site" ;D
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Very interesting conversation, Question,... I was taught in the early seventies to blow down the barrel between shots. I used this up until I found this site in 2011 and read several " horrific stories about this practice. I never had a problem. Was this a practice from, say 1770 or so, or was it something someone came up with in the 1970`s? Be gentle, I am " New to this site" ;D
Its nearly impossible to shoot any number of shots in the west when the humidity is low without either blowing or wiping.
Blowing in the bore far predates my experience. It is stylized in some Hollywood films but in real life it serves a purpose.]
That someone trys to blow through a barrel of a firearm that has missed fire? Well people need to pay more attention. Its the same thing as reading a newspaper so intently as to step in front of a moving bus, texting while driving and hitting a train or rear ending semi. How about having a baby on a seat on a bicycle? I can make a case for this being fatal to the kid, like squished completely flat when the mother lost her balance and the baby fell under the duals of a loaded belly dump. Does this mean all babies should be banned from bicycles? IMO yes if riding along side automobile traffic. My boss told me the truck driver quit driving truck after this...
I and thousands, perhaps 10s of thousands of others have blown down barrels probably since at least the 1820s when people really started moving into the great American Desert. Hundreds of thousands of repetitions. I had never heard of an accident until I read of it here.
Now would I blow down the fired barrel of a double barrel (and I shoot a swivel breech pretty often) when one barrel is loaded? No. The availability of better powder has also reduced the need for this. But I still do it at times. But its pointless if doing load development when the first shot is to be fired from a clean barrel as for hunting. So I wipe it pretty clean then relaod. This also lets the barrel temp drop.
But an empty gun is no more dangerous than a megaphone or a soda straw unless someone is so enthusiastic as to chip their teeth.
Oh yes, when I wipe between shots I generally pull air through the vent toward the muzzle to assure its open.
Its a choice. If hunting and no time to wipe and its 80+ and the humidity is low double digits? The hunter better blow down the barrel. If in Alabama or Iowa and the humidity is just short of London in the fog? Getting it loaded is not an issue.
Dan
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Take a deep breath and blow ACROSS the muzzle of the just fired gun.
That will create a vacuum and evacuate the bore. Placing my mouth over
the barrel of a just fired rifle is still nothing I will do even though it's obvious
that it can't be fired or fire on its own.The wet patch sounds good to me.
Bob Roller
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After a 20 year hiatus from club range shooting,in 2010 when I started back with the guys,I was accustomed to doing this,but got squared away quickly,and then told what happened.I'm with you,Dan.But ,fellers,seems like our ol friend Common Sense went an runt off.I dont blow down the barl no more,but I can ,and have,blow up an onion bag!!!lol,theres a real story in that statement.Dave
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In the latest Muzzleloader mag there is an article by an experienced shooter that details his recent experience of a premature discharge as he was pouring powder into the barrel from his measure--the blast blew the measure out of his hand and burned him. A spark must have been in the bore somewhere. That is why we canoneers ALWAYS wet swab between shots [our results would be more deadly if a premature ignition happened]. On the range I also usually wet patch between shots, although I admit that that has resulted in pressing crud into the touchhole area a few times. I do not blow into barrels, however, despite many of my mentors doing so back in the 70s.
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Some years ago there was a video going around that showed a young man ramming home a powder charge into what looked like a Parrot cannon during a re-enactment. apparently it was not swabbed first and it blew the ram rod and his arm somewhere off camera.
Robin
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Artillery differs from a muzzleloading rifle, or pistol, in that artillery is rarely loaded with loose powder. So, that being said, it is much more likely to produce a premature fire, because there is a distinct possibility that part of the cartridge material could remain in the breech, and ignite the next load. This is why you so often see artillery cartridges made from aluminum foil today. It is also why there are specific procedures ( wet mop) required at most events where artillery is used. This is a good reason to be extra careful when using paper cartridges, or combustible cartridges.
The only breech plugs I have pulled that have lots of crud on them possibly capable of holding a spark, either had a large notch in the plug face, or the plug face had obviously not been polished before installation.
Hungry Horse
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Just tighten up your combination and use a sloppy spit patch...and no need to blow or swab. And,it's safe. Packing all that wiping $#@* isn't needed. It takes some effort to load a tight combo. You can't push the load down with a thumb and forefinger like they do in Hoolyweed. I push the load down in 6-8 inch increments,no big deal. I get superb accuracy with this practice,both rifle and smoothie. Thicken up those patches,boys! ;D
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I stand to be corrected but, don't cannons shoot bare balls?
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I stand to be corrected but, don't cannons shoot bare balls?
Yes [except grape or cannister loads]. The possibility of sparks remains because of the powder being loaded as either cloth or foil cartridges--and pieces of the cartridge remain in the bore after firing. The bore is then wormed to remove remains of the cartridge and wet swabbed to kill any sparks. people have been killed or seriously maimed who did not follow safe worming/swabbing drill. One of my mentors in artillery had only a partial right hand [palm and thumb] because of a poor worm/swab run when the next rammed powder bag broke and exploded--sending the shattered rammer and a big ball of flaming gases through his hand as he rammed. He also caught fire from the extensive fireball at the muzzle and had burns as well as rammer shards stuck in his chest, etc....not something to fool around with. WE practice/drill SAFE loading procedures with our cannon --a 10 pounder Parrot. After 1000s of rounds fired we have had no accidents. Mike Nesbitts' accident [Muzzleloader mag] shows that it CAN happen with plain ol' rifle loading too. Sparks can stay alive in a bore under rapid shooting/reloading episodes. Fortunately for Mike he was not ramming, just pouring from a measure when it went off--also fortunate that he was not pouring from a horn!
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Thanks Mike. I kind of thought canister would have a patch but have played very little with a cannon. Always wanted to build one.
This is one of the reasons I load a tight patch ball combo in all my guns and rifles. The chances of an ember in the bore is almost non exsistant. Many in here frown on blowing down the spout so I try to forget old ways on the range. If I'm not sure where my loading regimen is, I always test with my ramrod.I've found that with the tight combo and a wet patch(sloppy) that no embers remain.
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Thought you guys might like to hear a tell of a flintlock misfire from around 1908 in the hills of southern WV. Around late fall a mildly retarded man of great size would kill and hang the local hogs at each farm pen. My grandfather was a boy at home and was down at the pen with this gentleman. My grandpa threw an ear of corn on the ground and when a hog came over to the old man fellow took aim with a flintlock rifle. The rifle sparked but did not fire. The old man stuck the rifle between two pickets of the fence with the barrel pointing into the pen. He reached into his hat and produced a wire which he was presumably going to use to pick the vent. However before he could the rifle fired ( talk about a hang fire) and struck a hog in the guts with a ball. The old man was put into such a state and panic that my Grandfather( age 10) pulled out the mans knife, jumped the fence and dispatched the hog. I wonder if he blew down the barrel afterwards ? Johnny
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The following excerpts are taken from Sketches and Eccentricities of Col. David Crockett of West Tennessee, published in London in 1834. The author describes a Tennessee shooting match of 1831 involving Mr. Crockett.
"Forty yards offhand, or sixty with a rest, is the distance generally chosen for a shooting match. If no distance be specified, this is implied. In all their shooting matches, no ball is allowed to count which is not found within an inch. They use for patching, cotton cloth, and wipe their rifles after every discharge."
My guess the wiping of their bore was for accuracy purpose more then anything else.
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"Ven you loads Der next shot, you Vipes der last shot" - see - I wipe the bore every shot, as I'm loading - and - I get much better than a 2" group - an inch from centre, ie: each side - thus that is not a good group. For some, I suspect that sounds really great, when they are not used to better accuracy.
I suspect that thumb started balls, wiped each shot might even shoot that well. ;)
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I read that entire story about that Crockett shoot (I bought it up on the computer from the Library Of Congress) some time back. If I recall, there was quite a bit of time between shots before they'd take another shot at what was offered up for a prize. Also, if I remember correctly some of the shooter's taking part hid their rifle in the woods so no one would mess with their sights...lol... Must of been pretty cut throat back in the day. ;D
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A long period of time between shots might dictate a wipe, however I guess we've never been in that situation that requires it.
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The following excerpts are taken from Sketches and Eccentricities of Col. David Crockett of West Tennessee, published in London in 1834. The author describes a Tennessee shooting match of 1831 involving Mr. Crockett.
"Forty yards offhand, or sixty with a rest, is the distance generally chosen for a shooting match. If no distance be specified, this is implied. In all their shooting matches, no ball is allowed to count which is not found within an inch. They use for patching, cotton cloth, and wipe their rifles after every discharge."
My guess the wiping of their bore was for accuracy purpose more then anything else.
Audabon also describes Dan'l Boone as wiping between every shot on a squirrel hunt he accompanied him on.
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At the National Black Powder Champs here in Western Australia this last Easter, a chap had a .451 Volunteer go off whilst loading, put the rod and bullet through his hand. All were non plussed as he wiped between shots. He may have had a volatile bore solvent which diesled when the bullet compressed the air when being rammed home onto the charge. I still don't know what the wash-up of that particular incident was.
cheers
Gordon
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As Leatherbelly noted earlier, he's used Alcohol on a patch wiping a flinter, with a tight patch and got a jet of flame from his 'little' vent. ::)
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The following excerpts are taken from Sketches and Eccentricities of Col. David Crockett of West Tennessee, published in London in 1834. The author describes a Tennessee shooting match of 1831 involving Mr. Crockett.
"Forty yards offhand, or sixty with a rest, is the distance generally chosen for a shooting match. If no distance be specified, this is implied. In all their shooting matches, no ball is allowed to count which is not found within an inch. They use for patching, cotton cloth, and wipe their rifles after every discharge."
My guess the wiping of their bore was for accuracy purpose more then anything else.
Audabon also describes Dan'l Boone as wiping between every shot on a squirrel hunt he accompanied him on.
I did not know that Mike. Thanks! :)
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As Leatherbelly noted earlier, he's used Alcohol on a patch wiping a flinter, with a tight patch and got a jet of flame from his 'little' vent. ::)
Alcohol is for drinkink! I never wipe!ever...Ya got me mixed up with someone else. It's funny tho!
(rolls his eyes,ffs's!)
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Sometime I wipe between shots and sometimes I don't. Depends on the rifle and the type of shooting I'm doing.
I hate rules and habitual rule makers. Hate putting up with stupid safety rules that have no effect on safety. Rules rules rules just for the sake of getting a feather in your cap and making more rules.
If you think there's too many rules you can count on someone proposing yet another stupid rule while your thinking there's already to many stupid rules. And then there's rule makers that make rules to their own advantage. And rule makers who make a rule because you said you didn't want the rule. I think rules, especially safety rules should be ruled out completely.
That's my ruling.
Wes.
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Dear Wes,
you are an absolute genius! Now go get back under that lone tree on top of the hill and wait for the next thunder storm.
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Wow, six pages of dissertation, and what is the result? Six pages of dissertation .
Somebody please shoot me! You can either run a wet patch or not....... I don't care!! Just put me out of my misery!
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LOL!
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...which diesled when the bullet compressed the air when being rammed home onto the charge. ...
Gordon
As one who has MADE a compression-ignition fire-starter, i simply cannot fathom someone ramming a loading rod hard and fast enough to ignite anything via the air heated upon compression. The least bit of a leak in compression defeats the design-a proper design pops the ramrod back up immediately as the air cannot have an escape, else the compression ignition fails. Therefore i completely discount the "diesel"/compression ignition angle.
that's Essay (based on experience) not Dissertation. ;)
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here's something "barrel sized" used intentionally as a fire piston. NOTE the speed and force utilized and the very last 4 words of the vid..."never do that again."
So do give wide berth to those loading fast and forcefully with both hands (and a sealed breech). Could be dangerous.
also please note: i didn't make or name the video. ;D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5nJDZDz5fI
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Well - very interesting - I'll stick with the 6 to 10" slow thrusts from now on, even with the range rod - evenly slow. Point taken.
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Well - very interesting - I'll stick with the 6 to 10" slow thrusts from now on, even with the range rod - evenly slow. Point taken.
when you're lifting yourself out of your boots ...that's when it could be trouble ;D
(again-only if the vent/nipple is sealed)