AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: B Shipman on January 17, 2009, 08:23:06 AM
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I'd like to hear some comments on the Beck antique rifle on the Contemporary Maker's site. I've never seen this and it's a great rifle. My feelings are that it's very early, Reading influence, and transitional into the ultimate Beck style. Directly transitional.
Boy would I like to build this one.
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I think you're right Bill. Thought the same thing when looking at it this morning. Can't help but to feel a strong connection between RCA 30, 31 and the additional unpublished rifle with similar details. The unpublished example was at Dixons a few years ago. Perhaps so of you know the rifle I'm talking about.
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JIM, i THINK YOU'D DO WELL WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS. Christ, I got my capitals mixed up. It's late.
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The Beck rifle and the accompanying pistol are indeed antiques and each is super rare in its own right. To date there are only about five JP Beck pistols known.
The rifle is thought to be the earliest Beck with a brass patchbox and the barrel is signed. It has strong Berks County traits leading some to believe that Beck learned the arts and mysteries of the trade in that region, moving later to Lebanon.
The rifle has mixed incised and raised carving and the motifs are not what chacterizes his later work. The cheekrest carving is incised, while the tang and the entry pipe have raised carving. The wood is rather plain maple.
The patchbox side plates, which are held by small brass pins, or nails are nicely engraved. Overall the rifle is very fine and early. It may have been built prior to the Rev. War since it lacks the defining traits that we associate with Beck beginning about the time of the War.
Lots to ponder here. And, no! The rifle isn't mine, but I have examined it on several occasions and it is always a joy to see it.
Dick
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Dick, Any chance you could talk the owner into allowing some more photos to be posted in the library? I think that there are more than a few of us that would like to see more of that rifle.
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Lucky, the rifle lives just a few miles from me. I'll get in touch with the owner and see what his feelings are about more photos are. He has been pretty open in the past to sharing his things with those who are interested. Will get back to you as soon as I can talk to him.
Dick
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I'd love to see the rest of it.
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There is also what appears to be the original owners name engraved on the box and it seems to have ties to the Berks Co. area, which of course fits right in w/ the styling, but it's an odd name with variations of spelling and there is some interpretation involved insofar as to how one reads the name. Some early references in Berks paperwork, just on a preliminary level, so someone who has spent a lot of time in Berks records could probably pinpoint it to a greater degree.
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Does anyone have a sense of what the last name spelling is? It is difficult to see.
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Looks like Christian Cargey to me.
-Ron
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It is spelled, "Chrisdianborgey" (I don't have my pics in front of me so I'm going by memory here) Quite flowing, at least that is how it appears to me. I believe this references a Christian Borcky/Borgy/Borky/Burke (anglicized).
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Eric, with a little research I also found that this chain of names is the only one that really makes sense and it is likely a Christian Bargey / Bergey / Berkey / Burkey similar to what you note. I found references to three as a start:
1. A Christian Bargey was born in 1741 and lived in Salford Montgomery County on Branch Creek. He apparently lived there his entire life and died there in 1819.
2. A second Christian Bargey lived in Berks County (wife was a Catherine Saylor), possibly Bern Twp (a few miles north of Reading and about 10 miles east of Womelsdorf and about 12 miles east of Lebanon Co). He was born in 1715 and possibly died in 1797 but I have some contradictory death years for him.
3. A third lived in Tulehocken (just above Womelsdorf) but according to will documents died in 1762. He also had a wife Catherine. I believe this third one may actually be the Christian noted under number 2 but he may have had a son and the son may have lived in Bern.
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I've seen and fondled the gun several times along with no gold, and in person the last name looks like Corgey, Gorgey, or Corgy or Gorgy.
It's difficult to really conclude what the engraver was trying to do between the ending g and y. The little line between the g and y could be part of the y, could be an e, or could be an i.
Whatever the name is, it's a Great gun and a joy to behold!
John
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I'd like to hear some comments on the Beck antique rifle on the Contemporary Maker's site. I've never seen this and it's a great rifle. My feelings are that it's very early, Reading influence, and transitional into the ultimate Beck style. Directly transitional.
Boy would I like to build this one.
Or its a restock of a broken Beck.
Yeah I know devils advocate. I admittedly lack experience in the field of hands on experience with originals.
But LOTs of guns got restocked cause they broke easily. A fairly light blow in the right place will break a stock and a horse or wagon wreck could really make a mess.
Thus looking at a rifle this far out from the norm one must ask this question.
I don't see the stock being that far "out" but the carving worries me.
Yes it supposition, but just because its got a name on the barrel does not mean its stocked by that maker.
So as the Devil's advocate the question to ask is without the Beck signature and patchbox (see RCA98) who do we attribute the stock to??
Dan
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Anything is possible. But after a long time, things just seem right or wrong in the whole context of what you're looking at. This one looks very right. Beck's early work is all over the place as it would be for a young man searching for his identity. Heavy Germanic, Lancaster elements, Reading elements. Try this , try that. Once established, he was one of the most conservative makers ever.
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There was a degree of talk when the piece first popped up a few years ago that perhaps it was a restock. However, while the gun has had some work done to it, the general consensus seems to be that the gun is 'right.' I looked it over pretty closely myself and I am satisfied that it all appears to be first stocking - the box in particular does not look restocked to me, and it sure looks like a Beck box - and oddly my general impression was that of a Beck rifle. More a feel than anything I could put my finger on. Maybe I'm wrong who knows. My 2 cents.
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As it happens, the owner of this rifle also has an RCA rifle (can't remember which one now) which has a two piece box, associated wire inlay, shorter barrel, no signature and identical carving. When he acquired the second rifle there was no hesitation on his part to assign the same maker to both pieces. Since he already had the signed one (on the Contemp Site) it was a logical identification. Although there are differences, both pieces in many ways are nearly identical. There has been no restocking on either, unless it was done 200 years ago.
Hope this helps some.
Dick
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Thanks Mr. no gold...
As I said it was a devils advocate thing.
The stock is really much like some other Becks and the PB is a ringer, though not identical to RCA 98.
But when I see odd stuff it always makes me question. One way to learn. Not having the rifle to eyeball is another disadvantage.
I always wonder about barrels with brass inserts for the makers name. I wonder if the barrel was recycled. I know that they are not all such but then its a interesting thought.
I guess I have "trust issues" ::)
Dan
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Was finally able to contact the owner of this rifle to ask about additional photos. He said that he does not have them and does not know who posted the photo under discussion, or where they got the photos used. He did say that it must be one taken and used by Man at Arms Magazine for an article of a year, or more ago. So, guess that will have to suffice; reading the article and going to volume one, of RCA to see good views of the carving on the rifle there.
One can get a pretty good idea from both, of what the carving, color, architecture and so on, are like. There is a marked similarity between them.
Give me some time and I'll try to find and post the page number in volume one where the unsigned gun can be seen.
Dick
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Looking at RCA vol 1.
Very interesting.
Dan
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I'm with those who see RCA 30, 31 as early becks and this rifle relating. I like it a lot, more than many of Beck's later guns. I hope that's not heresy.
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I'm with those who see RCA 30, 31 as early becks and this rifle relating. I like it a lot, more than many of Beck's later guns. I hope that's not heresy.
I thought the barrel markings on 31 were really interesting.
Looking at the other Becks that are more what people expect in a JPB we see that the comb and shaping behind the wrist on the rifle on the Comtemp blog has carried over into these guns as well.
This has been very enlightening though 30 is unmarked and 31 hardly legible they are intriguing in light of the essentially identical signed rifle.
This site is certainly a valuable resource.
Dan