AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Dave B on October 12, 2013, 05:31:21 PM
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ran across this collection of south Carolina poorboy parts on E-bay its worth checking out. Great photos for reference. I like the riveted front extension lug on the trigger guard, How bout that long tang with the slight teardrop end. Hope some one gets all the parts for a complete restoration.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/odhainwisconsin/m.html?item=141086776680&pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item20d96d5d68&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562I
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I've seen people parting out a TC or a CVA, but an antique?!?!? SACRILEGE!
-Ron
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Seeing originals parted out on Ebay makes me really angry.... I very much like the lines and details on that piece, we'll see how high it goes. Thanks for sharing.
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How many original southern mountain rifle trigger guards were pinned? I honestly thought
most were screwed on. tca
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I've seen people parting out a TC or a CVA, but an antique?!?!? SACRILEGE!
-Ron
I dont know whether to bid on em,or print it out and burn it.I am with y'all,the store bought stuff is hard to deal with,but this poor ol feller needs a loving home and restored,or at least stabilized.Geez,I dont want to think about what next!!!Dave
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Based on the triggers and style of TG I suspect its a TN made rifle or western NC but the round extensions on the tg are normally TN. Lines look similiar to a Robert Hughes which is western NC.
If you wanted to practice your restoration skills that stock would be a good one to work on!
Ron, Eric, I suspect he did it to get around Ebay's no gun policy, probably hopes someone will buy all the parts and put it back together. He probably picked it up at an estate sale and just wants to move it on.
Dennis
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Ron, Eric, I suspect he did it to get around Ebay's no gun policy, probably hopes someone will buy all the parts and put it back together. He probably picked it up at an estate sale and just wants to move it on.
Dennis
I imagine you are correct Dennis, a lot of folks who aren't educated in the matter see antique gun related materials and think $$$. I doubt the sellers who part out antiques on ebay have much consideration for historical values of items like this. I like the piece a lot but probably don't have the money to bid on it at the moment. The stock doesn't need too much, just some good wood repair underneath the lock.
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Have y'all watched this auction?it is interesting ,to say the least.I hope one bidder gets it all,and re assembles Ol Bubbie.Dave
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I gave him a little not-quite-nasty-but-not-chummy message.
Yeah. I can fix that!
well, maybe not that lock. i notice that the stock/bbl high bidder has zero bids on the trigger and guard. divided they fall.
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I see on his barrel auction,( Q&A) that someone told him the rifle was made by William Rice from TN.
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A few of you fellows should bid on one different part, then all get together at some gun show and put it together. :D Then auction it off, or take turns hanging it on your walls.
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The auto bids are really loaded.I tried for the tguard,autobid beat me quickly.Hope 1 person gets it all.Dave
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What do any of you think this complete rifle in its present "relic" condition would bring at live gun auction? Some projects are worth saving and other's not so much. What if someone else has a William Rice rifle and they are missing the original guard or triggers? Would not these parts be the closest thing to OEM? More rare and unusual gun parts turn up on Ebay than in any other market place. Over 1500 people who are interested in long rifles have viewed those Tennessee rifle parts listings in 6 days. They generated this thread didn't they? I know of a guy who had two Dr Lucie/Scagel knife sheaths that came from a flea market. Those sheaths were reunited with the owner of the actual knives who bought them at a live auction. The auction house had discarded the sheaths, and a picker found them. Don't be too hard on the seller, maybe he's a long rifle enthusiast who simply needs the cash to fund a different restoration project.
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ODHAinWI,
Did you even try to sell the rifle in tact on this site? One of us would probably have given you as much as you are going to get for the parts. I am currently bidding on all the parts even though I really can't afford it. I just can't stand to think that a perfectly good rifle could be broken up for parts.
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I fail to see ANY similarity between the southern gun auction and the knife sheath story. Breaking up a virtually complete rifle in order to have parts for other incomplete rifles is NOT the same as reuniting two sheaths with their original knives. Is this a high dollar golden age rifle, no... but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be treated with the same respect. The southern rifle could have been placed on gunbroker, auctionarms, or even in the for sale section here if it is your listing, and kept intact for future owners. I don't think a longrifle enthusiast would separate a piece of history in order to fund a different restoration project. Regardless of trying to make a buck, it's a lousy thing for an intact historical artifact to go through. My bet is that it could have been sold for more intact elsewhere than the pieces will fetch on Ebay.
All of what happens to these things is up to the current owners I suppose, they can do what they please. Whether they survive for the next generation to study is up to us, we're merely temporary caretakers at best.
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Wow! That's a shame. I would be afraid to ship the stock with out the barrel in place as well.....Really ups the chance of breakage. Love the tang. Anybody have an idea of the mark on the drum?
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He is breaking it up so he can sell it on ebay. He is almost saying so in every description. I would doubt the gun would sell for more than a thousand in one piece. He may know little or nothing about selling antique guns through any other market. Many collectors have a gun or two with parts that came from another gun. Even if they don't know it.
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I bet this gun started out as a flintlock. It could be a Wm Rice, but I don't think it is. Actually, I don't have any references for a Wm Rice as a Tennessee gunmaker. But then, I'm not an expert. It is certainly in the style of the early Rice rifles, but the Rice's adopted a more "Bean-esque" style by the percussion era. I have owned two rifles with the "WR" marked drums. I figured it stood for "Warranted". as the two rifles shared no similarities in style other than the iron mounts. It could just be the initials of the guy who converted rifles from flint to percussion. Either way, I find it amusing that we get all "worked" up about how someone else farms out their property. The seller knows enough about longrifle terminology to identify a "swamped barrel" and a "lollipop tang". He states the barrel appears to have been mounted on at least three guns, so it seems the parts may be mismatched (maybe- as I have one rifle that has been "period" restocked twice with all the same components minus the wood). I suspect the rifle in its current condition would be worth about $400-500 here in my area (Northern Alabama and Southern Tennessee East of the Highland Rim). I'm bidding on some of parts myself just out of some kind of morbid fascination!
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After looking as all the photos on my large monitor, I think all the parts go together and was originally a flintlock. The lock appears to have originally been a flintlock and the movement of ALL the staples in the barrel about an inch indicates to me that the barrel was cut back that amount either because the touch hole burnt out or to convert it to percussion; or possibly both. I don't see any evidence that the barrel was restocked three times. I think it was always with that stock and those mounts. That guard is typical east TN but it is a very nice example, all forge welded together and nicely filed at the front of the bow. I suspect that the lock was the victim of bad gunsmithing in the form of a poorly fitted replacement mainspring that slipped off the tumbler and broke out the bottom of the lock mortice. That is almost certainly what ended this rifles service life.
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He is breaking it up so he can sell it on ebay....
And that was the gist of my note to him, that there are plenty of other auction sites to sell such items where they don't have to be busted up.
lock aside, It looks a lot better than the one dragged up out of a lake recently.
The lock is the only major casualty there... just a little TLC in the right hands for this one!
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My bet is that it could have been sold for more intact elsewhere than the pieces will fetch on Ebay.
Maybe but I doubt it. The owner knows what he is doing. Ebay has such a large buyer population. I have had a far nicer southern rifle on Gunbroker for several months listed for $995 with seemingly no interest at all. I will bet that this old rifle will end up selling for close to that price if not more. I doubt seriously that it would have sold on gunbroker for much more than the $450 in combined bids it has at the present time. Lets see what happens.
Dennis
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I have a feeling that all the parts will end up in one guys hands at the end..... ;)
John
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I'm working hard to get the barrel. If nothing else, I now have some excellent photos and measurements to restore a rifle with a very similar profile, set of triggers, and guard- I'd say mine were made by the same fellow or someone who worked with him. My barrel was cut down a little bit from the muzzle.
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The barrel went for $306.99! The stock sold for $404.99 plus $20 shipping. Those fine Tennessee triggers went for $182.99. Guard went for $281.99. Lock went for $60.99.
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The winner on the barrel has bid on all the parts in the past. Don't bid against him. Let him have it all.
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wow. 405 on the stock.
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The winner on the barrel has bid on all the parts in the past. Don't bid against him. Let him have it all.
certainly...not me boss ;)
I guess the warbucks ran thin, he got beat on the trigger-and those were ultra late bids.
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The same guy got the stock as the barrel. He is spending what he needs to to keep it together. Good for him. He will have too much in the gun though, but that really is a fine rifle. Restored it will be quite fetching. I would fix everything, including the lock and be proud to have it in my collection.
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The same guy got the stock as the barrel. He is spending what he needs to to keep it together. Good for him. He will have too much in the gun though, but that really is a fine rifle. Restored it will be quite fetching. I would fix everything, including the lock and be proud to have it in my collection.
I agree. but somebody didn't. now i wonder if he even goes for the guard.
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What kind of person would take a part from someone who is obviously trying to keep the gun together? A greedy person is the only thing I can think of.
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What kind of person would take a part from someone who is obviously trying to keep the gun together? A greedy person is the only thing I can think of.
The second-place bidder on some other items...at some point it becomes a battle. ::)
divided it falls...
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The guy that has the triggers now has the guard.
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OK fellers- I'm going to take apart one of my old upper east Tennessee guns and put the parts on eBay! I think it is a sure fire way to double your money and irritate everyone at the same time! I think I'll start with a signed Bean flint gun..........
OK, maybe not!
I hope we get to see the restored gun. The photos were excellent, so the buyer with have something to go by, even if he doesn't have all the parts.
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Darn... so now the gun gets separated, maybe forever... Yes it got more money on Ebay than it might have on Gunbroker or here, but that's shameful IMO.
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Looks like it might get "restored" into two guns now. I'm curious as heck as to what the lockplate is going to go for... trainwreck, i'm trying to walk away. :o
triggers/guard guy walked away from lockplate. bbl/stock guy got it.
phew.
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I had been the high bidder on the lock. The first guy got it for 60.99. I had bid $60 on the lock, triggers, and guard.
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Here is the damage:
The barrel went for $306.99.
The stock sold for $404.99.
Those fine Tennessee triggers went for $182.99.
The Guard went for $281.99.
The Lock went for $60.99.
The grand total is $1237.95
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I expect the second bidder will offer the triggers and guard to the first bidder at a profit.
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That total is probably about what the gun is worth restored.
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I understand why the parts were separated and offered on ebay, but it seems just evil to me to do that. >:(
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Well, I was trying to keep everything all together.
I got the stock, barrel and funky lock. I bid what I considered a outrageous amount on the triggers and guard, but got beat out... :o
I'd liked to have those parts too. I do have a set of almost identical triggers, but will need to do something about the guard... Maybe find someone to make me one.
John
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Well, it actually brought more than I expected and I am glad he got it and hope he can somehow get the triggers. Sure makes me want to part a couple of mine out!!
The barrel went for $306.99.
The stock sold for $404.99.
Those fine Tennessee triggers went for $182.99.
The Guard went for $281.99.
The Lock went for $60.99.
The grand total is $1237.95
That total is probably about what the gun is worth restored.
I agree and if he pays someone to restore it I can't imagine what the total cost would be. But maybe he knows something we don't! Its still a neat looking rifle and I would love to know the story behind it.
Dennis
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Well, I was trying to keep everything all together.
I'd liked to have those parts too. I do have a set of almost identical triggers, but will need to do something about the guard... Maybe find someone to make me one.
John
Nice of you to try to keep the gun together John. I'd recommend getting in touch with Ian Pratt about the triggerguard - with the photos there it should be relatively straightforward.
-Eric
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Thanks Eric, and I'll copy the pictures of the trigger guard, and the triggers as well.
Where the wood is broken off from the forearm, I think I'll make a repair that looks like the original piece was broken off, then glued or stapled back on without taking care to try to really hide the crack. That way the stock will be whole again, and stronger, and maybe holding closer to originality...
Since the stock doesn't/didn't have a butt plate, am I correct in assuming that it wouldn't likely have a nose cap either?
The butt stock area has really pleasing architecture, and I wish the seller would have sold it all in one piece. Probably the best that's going to happen now is that the barrel and stock will remain together, with replacement triggers and TG.
Since whoever bought the triggers and guard way over paid for those parts, I assume he has a strong need for them, and that they'll be put to some good use and not just tossed in a drawer.
I'm sure the seller is grinning (I would be) and I doubt that I'll do something like this again,
John
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John,I wish you cou;d have got it all.,too.Just for giggles,I bid 60.00 on guard a while back,hah,what a laff,auto bid did me in.Expected as much.I cant believe what the trigs and guard went for,either,but they were some kind of spiffy parts.Whatcha gonna do about that po ol lock?Good luck,Dave
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John,
Because you stuck your neck out, I will stick mine out a little. If you send me the rough dimensions of the guard from the stock, I will make the rough finished guard for you for free. You will just have to finish file it and fit it to the gun. I already saved photos of all the parts. I wish I could replace the triggers for you and fix the lock, but I just don't have the time. It should take less than two hours to make the guard.
Thanks,
Mark
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Mark,could you send me pic of triggers,I have an older unused set that might be close.I didnt save this auction,much to my dismay.Dave
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PM sent with photos.
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I gave him a little not-quite-nasty-but-not-chummy message.
Yeah. I can fix that!
well, maybe not that lock. i notice that the stock/bbl high bidder has zero bids on the trigger and guard. divided they fall.
Hey Wade,I read your note to him with much good ol southern humor,I know he caint hep it.lol.You shure have a way with words.Dave
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Hey, oh that got published? I didn't expect that. Thanks.
Anyway, heckfire it all works out. Congrats John, i dig those muzzle-decorated bbls (and the un-busted wrist). Interested to see it "all" together.
Thanks to Mark for contributing.
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I was up in Norris this past weekend visiting my 95 year old dad. He gave me John Rice Irwin's book"Guns and Gun Making Tools Of Southern Appalachia". Some pictures of Rice made rifles and info about the makers in the book.
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Well Mark, Thanks so very much, and I really appreciate your offer!!!!
I've made a lot of parts for guns over then years, but never a complete trigger guard, so your help will be greatly appreciated! I've always known that this forum is a special place, with guys willing to be helpful in many ways, but your more than generous offer really takes the cake!!!
In return, if there's ever anything I can help you with, or help anyone else on the forum, just ask.
Mountainman Dave, As for the lock, If its original to the gun, it can be put back in good order with some work. I have a pretty good supply of old lock parts, springs, hammers and lock plates, plus welding equipment, a milling machine and a metal lathe to help with those parts I don't have. As an aside, I have about 30+ stripped down old lock plates, both flint and percussion, and none of them are exactly the same size or shape!
Eric K, Thanks for the reminder of Irwin's book. I have that one and will dig it out for a look!
Tell you what, since this old thing has generated more interest than expected, once I get it, and some time to work on it, I'll post pictures as I go along fixing what needs fixing and putting it back together.
Mark, I'll email you with the info!
John ;D
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JTR (John), Do not despair yet! I got an email from a friend today and he says that he bought the trigger guard and the triggers to your rifle. He has a recent interest in Southern Mtn. Rifles and bought the pieces in a feeding frenzy of bidding. He knows he spent a lot on them and is now having second thoughts. I recently talked him out re-stocking the parts on a half-stock southern gun that he has. he still has a lot to learn, but forgive him his beginners zeal. I have sent an email to him asking if it is okay to give you his email address. Hopefully, he will work with you to get these parts back together.
James Levy
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James, I just sent you an email.
John
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Old Bubbie gwine ta Californie-via Wisconsin,Lord if they could talk.lookin at all the goin on here,he already be havin a Major Life Event,sorta like us old guys a geezin!lol.I am not surprised about this recent turn of events.Small world,gettin smaller,at least in our circles.Man,what an epoch!!needs to be inna book.Have a great weekend,y'all.Dave
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Thanks to James Levy I have some photos of the trigger guard and triggers that go on the Ebay rifle we have been discussing in this topic. I can not help but wonder if the maker had some exposure to some of my Gillespie family at one time or other. Look at the similarities in the way the triggers are made (see David Rase's recent photos of his Gillespie triggers). Also there are similarities in the trigger guard.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/images/ALR%20Photos/assembly.jpg)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/images/ALR%20Photos/trig.jpg)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/images/ALR%20Photos/trig2.jpg)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/images/ALR%20Photos/trig3.jpg)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/images/ALR%20Photos/tg_bottom.jpg)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/images/ALR%20Photos/tg_bow.jpg)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/images/ALR%20Photos/tg_side.jpg)
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Thanks to James, I've been in contact with the guy that bought the triggers and guard. He's willing to sell them to me, for what he paid for them, plus shipping. Seems he bought them, but, well, I don't know.... None the less, I'm happy he's willing to pass them on.
I talked to the original seller and he said that he'd bought the rifle at a local gun show in Racine WI, already taken apart, but he's pretty sure the triggers and guard are original to the rifle. The gun should be here tomorrow or Friday and I want to take a good look at the stock inlets and the pictures of the guard and triggers to be positive the parts belong together. If they do, I'll buy the parts, and put the old thing back together as one again.
In the end, I'll end up with $1250 bucks in a $750 rifle, and promise myself to delete ebay off my computer!
John
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Hey John,we all need to spend more time in shop and less lookin at ebay.Gets me in trouble,too.Then,theres the used Harley Davidsons for sale that is mucho temptation.Guess thas what us ol guys do these days.At least we can communicate here on the forum.Best of luck on the triggs and guard.I am likin the look of that guard.Would like to see more pics of Ol Bubbie rifle.I liked the lines I saw.Might make one similar.Thanks,Dave
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Don't worry about overpaying John. You're not alone. Anyway, I'm still shaking my head as to why
someone paid $280 for a trigger guard not from a John Armstrong.
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Hey there MM70, I'll post some pictures when I get it all back together, then again if it needs any fixing. Hopefully I'll have everything by the end of next week!
Shreck, I'm not sure an Armstrong trigger guard would bring that much! :o
John
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Fantastic that it all gets back together. Seller is happy i'm sure. Hope this doesn't spur a frenzy of parting-out-rifles. Back when i used to collect cast iron, the week after something went higher than normal, the market would be flooded with similar items-depreciating the whole lot. I bid 400 bucks on a skillet once, but only because i knew it would go for 1000+ (which it did) but now i can say "I bid 400 bucks on a skillet". ;)
These days i figger out my max amount, add a few dollars to that. bid and leave. They'll send a note if i won it.
Congrats again John, on the "complete" item this time. Hey just rub it down with that antique restoration liquid, fix 'er right up. ;D
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Hey John,didja get ol Bubbie back togather?I would like to see some pics as I am in planning stages to build a southern iron mtd rifle .I didnt think fast enuff to save ebay pics.Best regards,Dave F
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Got all the parts!
Give me a couple days Dave, and I'll get some pictures up.
John
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Sweet work.