AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: tomjanemc on October 17, 2013, 12:34:57 AM
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Have any of you contemporary gunmakers built your idea of what William Ashley's 68-69 caliber flint Sam Hawken might have looked like?
I've seen dozens of contemporary flint fullstock Hawken's, but they mostly resemble the fullstock percussion J & S Hawken.
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Do you have, or do you know of a few images of that rifle?
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I have done it 2 times, but I don't have any pics. (To stupid to remember to take any)
It was ordered before Sam came onboard with Jake, so it's safe to assume it was a J Hawken not a J&S Hawken.
We have only a little info to go on, but I speculate it was probably made without a hooked breach and with a 42" long barrel I assume it was tapered or swamped.
I used an English style lock, but that's only a guess.
One of the 2 rifles I made was 100% iron mounted and the other had brass mounts. Why?
Why not!
A rifle ordered in St Lewis in the very early 20s could have had either.
Anyway, those were my guesses as to what Mr. Ashley's rifle probably looked like.
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Back in the 1970's I think it was,several of us contributed parts to build an "Ashley Hawken"for John Baird.
I THINK the wood work was done by Andy Baker but don't take that as a firm statement.I furnished an early
style double set trigger,Tom Dawson furnished a restored lock,a flint Ashmore,Bill Large made the 69 caliber barrel
but I don't recall the length or the across the flats dimensions.Several of us shot it on the primitive range at
Friendship.I recall it not being really heavy and the recoil was a push instead of a sharp jolt but other than that
it is now a faded memory of a one time occurrence.
I was told that the original rifle was in the hands of an Ashley descendent in St.Louis,an older woman but she
wasn't interested in showing it.Maybe someone else can verify that.
I would think that if someone had a 69 caliber octagon barrel and made a fullstock with "Hawken"hardware
it could be called a representative type because unless an original rifle is on the bench in front of the maker,'that
is probably the best any of us could do.
Bob Roller
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I never got to shoot Johns rifle but rubbed a few coats of linseed oil into the stock once. I cant remember much of the details of the gun except that it had a large hole in the barrel and like Bob said it wasnt overly heavey.
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Thanks everyone! Does anyone know what happened to John Baird's Ashley Hawken ? I've went through a bunch of my Buckskin Reports and couldn't find a picture of the rifle.
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August 1976 pg.24 The Buckskin Report. Pictures and description of rifle and the people who worked on it. 8)
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My best guess would be that the gun resembles the John Brown fullstock in the LDS collection in Salt Lake City. Brown's Hawken, is a big caliber as well, throwing a 1 0z. ball by the description given. That would make it over sixty caliber, but I'm not quite sure how much over. Jim Clyman's fullstock Hawken, was a big caliber also, if I recall correctly. Those would be the guns I'd look into.
Hungry Horse
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Well if it's a "1 once gun" it's a 16 bore, which is a 66 caliber.
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Thanks Bob- for the info. on Baird's Ashley Hawken !
Thanks Rich G- on the Aug 76 issue of The Buckskin Report showing Baird's rifle. I should have that issue at my log cabin. I'll check it out tomorrow.
Thanks SZ- You are correct. 1 ounce lead ball is 66 caliber (not 68 or 69)
Thanks Hungry Horse- I didn't know about the John Brown Hawken. I've never seen that one.
I've always wanted to build a large bore flint Hawken with a 42" barrel. When I build it, I'll nickname it "Old Bill" after my friend Heinz (Bill) Ahlers and William Ashley. First shot will be through a bull buffalo :)
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I shot Bodacious once at the Grass Hopper Flats Rendezvous out on Howie Road It was not that heavy but do not recall the dimensions. It was 36-38 long IIRC. Recoil was not bad. 120 gr of powder was the charge.
I suspect it shot about a .680 ball circa 14 bore. A .662 runs 1 ounce so if Ashleys rifle shot a one ounce ball it was about .67 caliber.
Bodacious was also a little late for an Ashley rifle in the TG and other parts I think.
I suspect that the reason Ashely had this rifle made was for Keelboat defense. It would be a minute of Native American rifle to 200 yards plus off a rest on a Keel boat. It was not needed for hunting.
Dan
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Dan'l;it probably wasnt needed fer huntin,but I rekkin it wud make a grizz come from a ways off.Dave
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Dan'l;it probably wasnt needed fer huntin,but I rekkin it wud make a grizz come from a ways off.Dave
But they kick and the ammo is heavy. Throw 30 one ounce balls or heavier in a bag and see what it feels like. Also it takes 140-160 grains of powder to get a flat trajectory.
A rifle like Bodacious loaded to 1600 fps would not be fun to shoot.
Rifles over 58 caliber are better stocked like an early Kentucky or a English sporting rifle.
Stocking a rifle of 67-69 caliber like a Hawken is a mistake.
But few people here shoot 62-69 caliber rifles with a crescent buttplate or even a 54 loaded to 1900 fps. The large caliber rifles also require different stance than can be used with a lighter caliber and need to be mounted like a shotgun not a Schuetzen rifle.
I own a rifle that shoots a one ounce ball at 1600 fps and its a 1/2 stock Hawken from the lock forward but behind the lock its more like a Manton. Yeah its got a lot of power and shoots well to 200 yards or more. But I don't shoot it much anymore.
Dan
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For what it's worth, the late Keith Neubauer restored the original Ashley rifle, for that lady in St. Louis. I remember discussing it with him, but wish now that I remembered more of the details. Keith was as good as there has ever been, when it came to restoration. The rifle had been handed down through that family, but was in sad condition when Keith got it to restore. The family was very wealthy, and had no need or desire to show it to anyone.
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"The family was very wealthy, and had no need or desire to show it to anyone."
Figures, never mind its AMERICAN history, not just theirs.
At least they did not stuff in in a garbage can...
Dan
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a while back there was a guy on the site that was Bairds nephew and I thought he had a .69 cal rifle of Johns if I remember correctly----- but I may be wrong ???
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I was mistaken the Man was WVLONGRIFLEMAN and he is Bairds grandson the rifle he spoke of is a .62 :'( :'(
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Dan'l;it probably wasnt needed fer huntin,but I rekkin it wud make a grizz come from a ways off.Dave
Put 20 .662 or .685 balls in a pouch and see if 20 rounds of .535s is not more comfortable. 662 ball weighs 437 gr in soft lead. One ounce. So I don't put a handful in like I do with the 50 or 54.
Ashley was not a trapper. He did not get out like the trappers did so weight of lead was not important. But from the deck of a Keel Boat with a rest it would be a long-range rifle capable of good accuracy to 250 yards at least.
Dan
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I found the specs. on John Baird's "Bodacious" in an old Buckskin Report while I was looking for something else.
You will note an error in the Muzzle and Breech dimensions.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FP1010815-1.jpg&hash=8a76c2c72708449513ef74af9d28627157485288)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FP1010816-2.jpg&hash=8e5acffb82304110ab185600ba89e5b5e265244b)
Dan
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When I shot it John was shooting 120 gr not 160.
Dan
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I shot "Bodacious"with 160 grains and it was a push,not a recoil of abrupt nature.
I made the double set triggers for that one and Tom Dawson restored an antique lock,Bill Large made the barrel and I forget who did the wood work and finished the rifle.
Bob Roller
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I see the article made a mistake on the barrel thickness. So was the muzzle 1.1875" across the flats and the breech 1.625" ? Did Bill Large make several of these barrels?
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I shot "Bodacious"with 160 grains and it was a push,not a recoil of abrupt nature.
That was my thought too, but I'd just finished high school and my thought was that it "pushed" about like a 300 pound lineman.
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I suspect the muzzle is 1.0625 given its appearance in the photo.
Dan
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I suspect the muzzle is 1.0625 given its appearance in the photo.
Dan
Thanks, Dan ! That makes sense. Muzzle at 1.0625 and breech at 1.875.
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Correction. Breech 1.1875 "