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General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: gumboman on November 25, 2013, 01:13:00 AM

Title: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on November 25, 2013, 01:13:00 AM
Looking for a source to purchase teflon shooting patches. I have a 62 caliber barrel with a 1-72 twist and I cannot get it to shoot worth spit. My experience with this gun has been exasperating. In my desperation to get my expensive underhammer to shoot and before I retire a new rifle I want to give the teflon patches a go.

Can you forum members supply me with contact information for a teflon patch material source?

Many thanks
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: smylee grouch on November 25, 2013, 03:44:44 AM
Check out the classified ads in Muzzle Blasts mag.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on November 25, 2013, 04:56:36 AM
Thanks for the tip but I do not get the magazine. A membership subscription to NMLRA is on my Christmas list, but I need patches now.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: smylee grouch on November 25, 2013, 05:05:39 AM
Call 330-262-5482  from 7pm-10pm EST. Not before - not after
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Standing Bear on November 25, 2013, 07:35:29 AM
820-935-2801
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: drago on November 25, 2013, 04:27:19 PM
What depth grooves do you have? Size of ball and thickness of patches have you tried?All of this combined with charge amount varies with each type of barrel. I bet more info on the rifle and someone on this board could help you get started working up a load.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Walks with Fire on November 25, 2013, 04:37:05 PM
Are you blowing patches? Try a wad or a second patch on top of the powder then seat a patched ball. If it's a slow twist and a .62 you probably need to shoot a heavier load to get it accurate. Tell us what you are using and have tried so far.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Kermit on November 25, 2013, 06:24:00 PM
What "drago" said. A little more info might got better help. Make of barrel, type of rifling, ball size, patch material and thickness, powder brand and granulation, etc. Better help might result.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Hungry Horse on November 25, 2013, 06:28:19 PM
Gumboman;

  Ok, this is where this subject will take off and go the 9+ pages with everybody chiming in. I have a .50 cal. rifle with a 1 in 72" Montana cut rifled barrel. I tried everything imaginable trying to get it to shoot. I knew it would prefer fat charges, because of the slow twist, but nothing I did, would stop it from blowing patches. I ran out of patching for the gun at an open to the public event, where the public was being encouraged to experience shooting a flintlock. I decided to use the patching from my sons .45 caplock, which was so loose in the flinter that I had a hard time cutting patches at the muzzle without sliding the patch out from under the ball. A novice blackpowder shooter wanted to try a shot at a 200 yrd. gong with the rifle. I told him it would need a full charge for the shot, which was 90 grns. of 3F, as apposed to the 50 grns. we had been shooting. I told him where to hold and he drilled the gong. I tried the loose charge a couple more times and then went out and picked up the patches. They were so perfect that I could have reused them. I started using light patching made from linen, and pre-cut instead of trying to cut them at the muzzle, and the old flinter really came into its own. Give it a try. I know there will be a crowd here that will want you to load a bore size ball with a piece of tent canvas, and magic whiz bang lube, using a hydraulic short starter, but try this first. I wouldn't have tried it if I hadn't run out of patching material, but I love the easy loading, and not having to rebarrel the guns, is good too.

                 Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on November 25, 2013, 07:21:25 PM
Wow! Many thanks to all for the input. Hopefully I can find a solution from all the experienced shooters on the forum. So here we go with more details on my situation.

First, I am not a novice. Have been shooting muzzleloaders since 1982. Own 7 long rifles flint and percussion. My round ball shooters in 50, 54 and 58 calibers shoot tight consistent groups even using iron sights. My 50 cal Green Mountain barrel will shoot excellent groups with just about anything I put down it.

Now for this new gun. It is a underhammer I built. Bought the barrel and action from a gunsmith I won't name just in case the problem is with me and not the barrel.

My sight system is a 3x Malcolm Scope. Old eyes strain on iron sights.
Caliber 62.
Twist is 1-72, lands and grooves around .120"
Barrel 30 inches long with 1.5" long breech plug.

My trips to the range have been numerous, and I have experimented with these combinations.

Balls have been swaged, and cast. Cast balls from 3 different makers.
Balls are weighted to within 1 grain.
Balls have been .600' and .610. Have settled on .610 as my choice.
Sprue is up.

Patch material has been Ox-Yoke with Wonder lube in .015", .018" and .020".
Pillow ticking in .018 to .024" dry and lubed.
100% linen at .017" thickness dry and lubed.

Powder has been GOEX in 3F. Charge from 100 grains to 140 grains.
Also tried Swiss in 3F.

Bought Dutch Shultz's dry patch system. This dry patch system gave best results so far.

Tried Ox-Yoke shotgun wads over powder with patch and ball.
Tried double patch and this has given best results so far.

At the range I clean between rounds.

My best groups have been about 4 inches at 100 yards with a load of 135 grn 2f Goex, extra patch over powder, .017" 100% linen lubed with Ballistol and water diluted at 7-1 ratio. Ball was .610 cast with sprue up.

I got these results one time. Subsequent trips to the range produced larger groups. Experienced frequent flyers.

Last week went on a deer hunt here in Alabama. Took no shots at game and a good thing too. When I shot the gun to unload after a 5 day hunt, the gun missed the entire target frame measuring 40 inches by 30 inces. It was shot from a lead sled. Load was the one above that gave me the best group.

I have ordered some Teflon patches as a last ditch effort to find something that is satisfactory.

Thanks to all for the help.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on November 25, 2013, 07:24:37 PM
Gumboman again. By the way all shot patches look good when using a wad or extra patch over powder. No burn out, are completely intact and could be reused.

Have tried pre-cut and cut with patch knife after short starting.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Hungry Horse on November 25, 2013, 07:51:04 PM
Gumboman;

  I fear your barrel is too short to utilize the required powder charge needed to stabilize the ball. Most of these big charges, you are firing is going out on the ground.

                 Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: smylee grouch on November 25, 2013, 08:26:37 PM
Gumboman- I dont know where you rest your barrel when you work up your loads but I have had the best results resting it on the end of the barrel on a solid rest like sand or shot bags. Lead sleds that I have seen rested the gun on the forarm which has never given me as good of results with a muzzleloader.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on November 25, 2013, 10:11:32 PM
I had considered that the barrel length could be a factor. The breech plug is about 1.5 inches long. Plus the ball and charge are at least 2 inches in column length. Combined this leaves 26.5 inches of rifled barrel. Now the Pacific Rifle Company as well as Roger Renner in his Faeton rifle use this combo and the claims of great accuracy from both sources abound. This gun is designed is somewhat based on that.

Although I accept it is possible the full charge might not be consumed, I am not so sure the ball is not stabilized with the 1-72 twist. There are slower twist 62 caliber gun owners who claim great accuracy.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: drago on November 25, 2013, 10:51:24 PM
Maybe try 2f powder in that large of a bore. I don't know what stock you have but I have heard the slim wrist styles can break in a lead sled where the stock takes all the force. I hope you find the right load.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Hungry Horse on November 26, 2013, 12:06:02 AM
 I fear 2F is going to burn even slower, and therefore spew even more unburned powder onto the ground. I was under the impression that the Faeton guns were gain twist, maybe I'm wrong. I think some of the reasoning for developing the gain twist was that it might allow the barrel to be shortened, and still retain the accuracy of a longer slow twist barrel. I don't know how a gain twist effects the burn rate of the charge, or if it makes any difference at all.

                     Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: k varga on November 26, 2013, 12:40:56 AM
try another form of sighting system, maby the scope is part of the problem.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on November 26, 2013, 03:04:46 AM
Thanks to all for the input so far. Very good stuff. What a great forum. Invaluable.

Several things I left out of my detailed post from earlier.

Rifling depth is .012"
I should have stated 2f black powder instead of 3f. Have been meaning to try 3f however but the Swiss is stated to be premium powder and is sized like Goex 3F and that made no difference.
I know the sighting system could be a suspect and do intend to try something else. But I do have the same Malcolm scope on a bullet shooter that will cloverleaf at 100 yards with 120 grn 3f and and 360 grain lead bullet. So I have confidence the scope holds zero. Even so that is on my to do list as one more potential culprit to eliminate.

Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Dan on November 28, 2013, 07:00:09 AM
Couple of stray thoughts:

Nipple burned out
Ball/patch dims
Are you compressing the charge when you seat the ball?
Are you wiping damp or wet?
.012" deep rifling is fairly deep. See comment above on dims.
Your twist rate isn't the problem.
If you are shooting off bags, put one about 6" behind the muzzle, nothing under the butt.

Check your scope.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Kermit on November 28, 2013, 09:20:33 AM
What do you mean when you say "double patch?" Two thicknesses of one of your patches? What thickness?

I'm wondering if you don't have a ball/patch combo that this barrel likes. Find some thicker material, precut it, and lube with spit. Then try one thicker still. Denim? I think your barrel may be hinting that it wants a tighter fit.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Bob Roller on November 28, 2013, 03:40:42 PM
Walter Cline mentions an old man,L.G."Daddy"Moore using a double charge and double patch
as a bear hunting load. He used a flintlock as his only rifle if I remember the story correctly.

Bob Roller
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Hungry Horse on November 28, 2013, 09:33:12 PM
Gumboman;

  Are the mentioned manufactures also shooting .62 caliber? With the ball making just over a half turn in the length of the barrel, and the powder required for stability not likely to burn completely,  accuracy could suffer.
 I have a .62 cal. 1-72 twist barrel from Orion that I have been thinking about building an elk gun on, and have not proceeded simple because I haven't found anyone with a similar caliber/ twist barrel that performs the way I think it should preform. And, mine is still 36" long, not 30" like yours.

                      Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Kermit on November 28, 2013, 11:08:09 PM
HH--ream it smooth!
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: blaksmth on November 29, 2013, 08:04:15 AM
 I have a rifle that shoots a .695 round ball I shoot 125 gr 2ff Goex  and I use GI cleaning patch for a patch one side has a flannel side one side is slightly rougher to patch the ball I believe its .010 maybe.015 thick and when seat ball in muzzle I seat ball about a little over half way and cut patch around the ball then seat ball over powder.

 I use water soluable machine oil as a lube and also a soft cast ball out of pure lead and I do not have any problem with burned or torn patches and if I do my part this rifle will group under 21/2 inches in 5 shots no wind mind you at 100 yards and not clean between shots off of a bench.

 IMO 3FFF is too fine of powder to use in a .58 or larger rifle I think it raises the pressure rise faster and cause more fouling than the larger grain powder IMO, and if I understood your post this right is a new rifle ? it almost sounds like your rifelings are too sharp, when my dad built a new rifle we would put at least a 100 rounds through it and then  see how things went then.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on November 29, 2013, 05:14:40 PM
Thanks again for the feedback from all you muzzleloaders. I will answer the questions since I am still looking for a solution.

When I say double patch I mean that I put a patch down over the powder, much like using a wad between powder and shot in a shotgun. I do this to prevent patch burn out. When I exceed 120 grn 2f powder without this double patch, the patch around the ball is burned causing random accuracy.

Nipples are new. Tried musket caps and #ll caps. Using #11 now since musket caps caused too much clogging of nipple.
Ball is .610, cast pure lead with .017" linen patch lubed with 8-1 water and ballistol. Patches are dry per Dutch Schultz system. This is a tight fit.

Some moderate compression of the charge. Nothing excessive.

Wiping with damp patch then run dry patch down between rounds.

Barrel maker says .012" deep rifling and 72 twist is ideal for .62 caliber.

I have used up to .020" Wonder lube patch which makes for a very tight fit. I have found the barrel does not like grease lube patches as wonder lube causes very large groups. Dry patches seem to do better.

As I mentioned earlier, on one trip to the range with dry patch using ballistol and water mix 1 ballistol and 8 water, I was able to get about 4 inch groups. I used .610 ball, .017 linen patch, 135 gr 2f. This I got 1 time. Since then using same load and patch/ball combo groups are 6 to 10 inches with frequent flyers. It is exasperating.

This is a hunting weapon and was intended to shoot heavy loads. I might have to try backing charges way down to under 100 grn to see what she does.

I have Walter Cline's book also and have read it  dozen times at least. I think he meant Daddy Moore's double load to mean exactly what I am doing. That is to put a patch on top of the powder to protect the patch that surrounds the ball so it does not burn out.

Thanks for all the feedback.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Hungry Horse on November 29, 2013, 10:34:19 PM
 Another lesson I learned back in the day is never assume its all the gun. I had a muzzleloader that had all the right parts in it, but wouldn't group the way it should. I tried everything imaginable to get it to shoot. One day at the range, one of the old timers, named Glen shot it.  He put three shots within an inch and a half of each other at a hundred yards. Glen then said, now you shoot it. So I did. He then said something odd. He said shoot it without setting the trigger. I did. I shot a group, that although was not as good as his, was much better than any of the previous groups.  He had been watching me very carefully as I shot. His conclusion was I was anticipating the set trigger, and correspondingly the recoil, and flinching the shot  off. By squeezing the single trigger, and concentrating, I had overcome the anticipation.  The gun now has a primitive trigger, and I shoot it quite well.

                      Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on November 30, 2013, 12:32:12 AM
Good tip Hungry Horse. I have always been open to the idea that the problem is me. One of the reasons I have not named the barrel maker. Would not want to blame him unfairly.

On the other hand, I can take two of my guns to the range. This underhammer I am struggling with and one of my other guns. The underhammer is exasperatingly inaccurate and 5 minutes later my 58 Hawken groups beautifully. All from the same bench and rest and at the same target stand with me squeezing the trigger in the same fashion.

It is a conundrum.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Dphariss on November 30, 2013, 04:57:21 AM
Gumboman;

  I fear your barrel is too short to utilize the required powder charge needed to stabilize the ball. Most of these big charges, you are firing is going out on the ground.

                 Hungry Horse

This old wives tale is never going to die it seems.
The question would be: "Is the velocity increasing as the powder charge is increased? If so its burning the powder.
I would then point to the 1st Ed. of Lyman's BP loading manual. Note the charge weights for the PAINFULLY slow C&H basting powder grind powder they were using. 180 gr to 200 gr in 54 IIRC (not going to bother looking it up) and ti was still adding velocity.
I have shot 65 gr of FFF in a 32 caliber in a building over white sheets, no unburned powder. I submit that this is a longer powder charge in the barrel that 140 gr in a 62.

NOW with a wet shooting patch it IS possible to have some crud on the patch when its picked up and its possible that SOME contaminated powder grains might not burn.
There is always to possibility that this rifle in not properly constructed and the barrel is moving at the breech under recoil.
It could be with the heavy recoiling loads the shooting position is not EXACTLY the same each shot. All to common when its necessary get up, move around load the rifle etc.
The barrel may not shoot better than this.
The barrel may have a sweet spot that it needs to be rested at. I would try the front barrel key/pin location.
Not using a rear bag is a recipe for larger groups since it reduces stability.
Had the barrel been carefully slugged to assure its not tapered in the bore, tight at the breech and loose at the muzzle or tight-loose-tight as I found on a barrel a I waited over a year for? I would have been thrilled if this gas pipe had shot into 4" even once.
Once the the caliber/recoil level gets to a certain point it becomes a major factor in accuracy. The relatively long barrel time coupled with the heavy recoil impulse can cause pretty wild effects on the target.  While not a ML my 15 pound 32" barreled 45-100 Sharps (MV 1370) will throw a shot out several FEET at 500 yards if it recoils a little "off" from not having held the rifle quite right usually I can tell when the shot breaks it will be "off".
This is something people do not take into consideration when building a large bore rifle. Plus the typical Jeager FL and probably percussions as well might have rifling twists in the 17-32" range since "one turn in the barrel" was the common formula until at least the 1860s for European/English rifles over about 50 caliber anyway.
This means they would generally not allow a charge much greater, if as large, as a shotgun of similar bore. But when the twist is slowed the powder requirements may well go up significantly. Though I would expect a 20 bore (62) to shoot with 100-120gr of powder unless twisted very slow 96" or even slower. 72 is a very acceptable twist for this bore size.
Finally who made the scope? Look it over CAREFULLY in all respects. Old scopes often have problems loose screws for one and then...
Reproduction scopes made in China or with mounts made there are not all that reliable. I am going through this with a brass suppository gun with a Chinese reproduction scope but in this case I have little choice since the current price on the proper original scope is "high" IF one can be found and its needed to be "legal" for a class.

Dan
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: Daryl on December 03, 2013, 03:12:58 AM
My 66" twist GRRW barreled .69 gave nicely increased speeds, from 82gr. at 1,225 fps all the way to 200gr. 2Fwhere it managed 1,700fps. It's 'best load was 165gr.- that was with mid and late 1980's GOEX.

I accidentally charged it double- ie: using the 165gr. charger - helping a new BP shooter while I was loading, ie: 330gr. of 2F, with a single ball of 480gr.  That shot picked up up off the stool I was sitting on - and chronographed a whole 1,770fps - but still showed 70fps increase over the previously recorded 200gr. charge.

With today's GOEX 2F powder, I can match the regulation of my sights, using 140gr.  I do not know if the velocity is the same, ie: 1,550fps but seems to be from the impact.  Using 165gr. toady, gives me an impact 6" higher at 200yards than that load did previously.

140gr. is easier to shoot and is amazingly accurate in that rifle - as-is 165gr.

If heavier loads burn patches, you need thicker patches. A form of barrier-wadding might help, but I do not see it as being as accurate as a load that actually maintains it's integrity - no matter how much powder is used- merely an opinion.  My smaller bores lost accuracy if a barrier wad was used during experimentation, however the .69 was not effected at all when using a wad between powder and ball.

In it, I used a punched 14 bore card-board wad to separate the powder from the lubed patch when hunting. Upon ignition & gas building pressure, the wad must wrap around the rear of the ball, I'm sure, and thus, would not seal the powder gases from the patch. A softer or collapsible barrier, such as a cloth or paper barrier would continue to seal the gasses and flame behind the ball - IF the patching & wadding sealed to the bottom of the grooves.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on December 05, 2013, 02:48:34 PM
Good stuff. Daryl. I just ordered and received some 19 gauge card wads to try. I did not think of the card wrapping around the ball. Now I can see that surely must happen.
Title: Re: Source for teflon shooting patches
Post by: gumboman on December 14, 2013, 08:27:50 PM
Here is the latest on my 62 cal underhammer. Maybe this will help others.

A forum member was kind enough to send me a sample of teflon lubed patches in .018" and .020" thickness.

A recent trip to the range to try these out resulted in better groups and more important some consistency in groups. The teflon definitely produced smaller groups.

But I still got some flyers, out by 6-8 inches. It is exasperating, making me want to quit and give up on this very costly gun building project.

As a last effort, I tried something that Dutch Schultz advised a few months ago in an email to me. He recommended I start by using a 96 grn load. Also a forum member who sent me some teflon patches to try recommended I try lighter loads. At the time I did not accept this, as my project was intended to be a hunting weapon and I wanted at least 140 grn loads for accurate long range shooting. In my determination to make this gun shoot as I told the barrel maker I wanted, anything less than 135 grn load was not acceptable and I loaded at 135 grn as a minimum.

So in desperation I tried the lighter loads recommended. Lo and behold at 100 grns of 2f I got good and consistent groups at 100 yards using the teflon patches. At between 100 and 110 grns the gun gave me about 3.5" groups at 100 yards, using a .600" ball and .020" patch. At 125 yards she grouped at 6 inches. Up to that time at 125 yards I could not keep shots on the target face. A .610 ball with .018" patch was not quite as good but better than in the past.

So it appears my barrel is a pussy cat, only liking mild loads. I know this will take deer with no problem but it is not what i wanted. So this has been a lesson for me and maybe it can help others. My gun will not be the magnum muzzleloader I wanted but will be a capable weapon at short range I think.

I intend to continue refining the loads. Maybe I can get her up to120 grns with the teflon.