AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Shreckmeister on January 07, 2014, 05:35:05 PM
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Wm Shreckengost used variations of the first cheekpiece photo on most of his rifles.
I am finding other rifles with variations of this symbol made by other gunsmiths as in the
second and third picture. Does anyone know what this symbolizes? A bird perhaps?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FDSCN0610_zpse99db73c.jpg&hash=759d8ad35eaf378829a8acaa533b6d7e214dadd7) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/DSCN0610_zpse99db73c.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FGermanCheekpiece_zpscc461205.jpg&hash=112baf83ac0217e789d9f1dcc13edc8ac6d0c293) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/GermanCheekpiece_zpscc461205.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2F_57_zps7d8ab007.jpg&hash=1243edc79b45c582ac64419621918cef243ce241) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/_57_zps7d8ab007.jpg.html)
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Also, if anyone has photos of similar symbols could you please post them and
identify the maker of that rifle.
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Lorentz Kafka of KRA is noted for his work on symbolism related to Kentucky Rifles. If you contact him, we would love to know what he has to say.
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Here's another one from a Shreck that is a bit different than his others.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FTRsWShreckengostRifle28_zpsd03001f6.jpg&hash=23cf69be45b0a41bc55b857bb3d769d642fb7b81) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/TRsWShreckengostRifle28_zpsd03001f6.jpg.html)
There are at least 3 different examples in Wm Shreckengost's templates shown here
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=12919.0
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Schreck;
For some unknown reason my server won't recognize your e-mail address.
Did any of your relatives use brass triggers? This long rifle has a brass single trigger with a very fancy pierced gusset on the back side. The triggerguard is exactly like the one on the fancy Kuntz rifle so often pictured. The patchbox, and all the inlays, are attached with small brass nails. The engraving is done with the finest line graver i've ever seen on a longrifle, but sadly not the quality of Jacob, and Peter, Kuntz. The engraving rarely flares on sweeping curves, and utilizes many small accent cuts, and some crude crosshatching. I'll keep trying to get you some pictures.
Hungry Horse
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HH, I've not seen a brass trigger on their rifles. Seems like a very strange material to use for
a trigger. Your rifle sounds very interesting. If your email is in the profile, I will send you one and
maybe a reply will go better.
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Schreck;
Yes, my e-mail is on the profile. That might just work. It kinda like jiggling the handle, only on a computer. TTYL.
HH ( not Hershel House, the other one)
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Mr. Meister,
Butch said it's a moustache ::) ::)
My gut feeling is that the image is simply Fraktur interpretation of ... something ??? ???
So, I feel comfortable with the moustache idea ;D
Peace Out....Shreck ( NOT Meister )
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Well given that Butch is the gggg grandson of Westmoreland Cty gunsmith George Smith, that gives
credence to that. :o
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A similar inlay is sometimes seen under the cheekpiece on Bedford, and Somerset, County rifles. But, because these are all very stylized, its hard to determine exactly what they represent.
Schreck; The e-mail didn't come through. I even checked my junk mail to see if the spam filter was the culprit. it appears my e-mail server just doesn't acknowledge yours exists.
Hungry Horse
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HH will send one from another email. Thanks
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Many of these inlays on later guns were bought from the same suppliers they got locks and other hardware from. Catalogs were full of locks, inlays and patch/cap boxes well after the Civil War.
As a result I would hesitate to ascribe any particular significance on the shape.
Dan
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Why does it have to mean anything? In my view it's just an ornamental design loosely based on scroll and leafage plant forms. You will see many inlay forms during the percussion in which the designs may have been more formal at some point, but then degraded over time to shapes that don't seem to make a whole lot of sense. I think this symbolism thing can be taken a little too far at times.
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It doesn't have to mean anything, but it could. So your assessment is that it is a plant/leaf.
I think you may be right about that. Which plant is it? The question is why is this plant
on many longrifles, each one being a little different? Why did all these gunsmiths want a similar plant
on their rifles? I think there was a reason. Likewise, I have heard the symbolism thing taken too far.
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It doesn't have to mean anything, but it could. So your assessment is that it is a plant/leaf.
I think you may be right about that. Which plant is it? The question is why is this plant
on many longrifles, each one being a little different? Why did all these gunsmiths want a similar plant
on their rifles? I think there was a reason. Likewise, I have heard the symbolism thing taken too far.
Let me clarify here.
Its STYLIZED decoration, decoration. Wondering what plant it based on is an exercise in futility since its simply decoration that someone thought looked good. For all we know they were stamped out in shop in Birmingham, England designed and cut out by people who had not idea how to stock a firearm or even how to install the inlay. And from looking at some examples did not even have significant artistic ability.
Dan
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And many were purchased already engraved.
Dan
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Dan, I disagree with your premise that ALL these inlays were mass produced. Proof that this is NOT the case is
right here in the library under "tools of a gunsmith". Wm. Shreckengost's vast array of inlay templates are intact to this day
in a local collection and the cardboard they were cut from shows the partial name of a local hardware store here
in western PA. In other words he repurposed the hardware store boxes to make his templates.
I find it hard to grasp how I can spend my time
tracking down things to post on this forum for guys to learn from and
have guys look at them and refuse to acknowledge what they are seeing.
You don't need a template if you are buying them already cut out.
As for already engraved, this is also not the case. I won't bother with the electron microscope to prove that the
gravers and shaders were used on his guns and no others. It's clearly his hand on all his rifles.
Yes, there were mass produced inlays on later rifles, but the examples I provided were not.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2F2014-01-09_17-21-28_60_zps5edf0ff9.jpg&hash=fa49d9c5985db434c7c8d94e06bcded4eefedff3) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/2014-01-09_17-21-28_60_zps5edf0ff9.jpg.html)
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I like all of the illustrated inlays so far. I disagree that there is no artistry in them. I opine these are not mass produced. They are all variations on a common theme, from simple to ornate.
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These designs look very architectural to me. I would suggest that the design itself was probably influenced by historical use of space in architecture....and for this reason the meaning or symbolism is more easily lost in an application like on a longrifle...especially to those looking at it a couple centuries later.
Here is a statement from Line and Form by Crane:
"Now, if we seek further the meaning and origin of this necessity of the control of geometric lines and spaces in design, I think we shall find it in the constructive necessities of architecture: for it is certainly from architecture that we derive those typical spaces and panels the designer is so often called upon to fill."
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This stuff is no different than any other decoration and ornament found on the longrifle. Don't over think things. Whatever you want to call it.... Folk art versions of baroque and rococo designs, stylized plant forms etc. Sure it's hard to argue that a fish or a star doesn't have some symbolic meaning, but this sort of stuff is completely different in my view. These examples in particular are pretty decent for the time period, but it's still good to keep the nature of this work in perspective.
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Jim,
I would agree to a point that it is repetitive décor, but the original Baroque and Rococo forms were interpretive of earlier symbolic forms. I think that it is often forgotten that symbolism or symbols were a form of communication for the common people, only the Church and Aristocracy were Literate. Most often symbolism has the eternal Secret Society governmental conspiracy mystique label, it was a simple form of communication. vtbuck223 put it nicely.
Buck
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HH,
Thank you ;D
Since " named " rifles are usually of the feminine variety, that explanation makes sense...except maybe " Old Tick Licker "...but then again ???
But, I digress. I am sure that somewhere along the way there was inherent symbolism associated with all decoration of firearms, furniture, etc. Not only do we now ask, " How did they do that? ", but, " Why did they do that? "
Perhaps we ask too much ??? ::)
Peace Out...Shreck ( NOT Meister )
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And then a lot of this "history" can just as easily be made up on the fly by some old horndog with an interest in old guns. ;D
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I checked my notes from Lorentz Kafka and the cheek pieces in question appear to be a stylized version of a couple similar Germanic symbols that represent both rebirth in Christ and the Risen Son of God. Of course, Germans, being an earthy bunch, a lot of religious symbols representing life or rebirth derive from human reproductive anatomy. I guess your interpretation of the symbols depends on how far your mind is from the earthly. How is that for a political answer to your question. ;)
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Below is a link to a .pdf of notes I took many years ago at a Dixon seminar given by Lorentz Kafka. When I saw the seminar on the list, I thought it was a joke and had no intention to attend. However, I just happened to take a break in the main tent when Lorentz was starting his seminar. I quickly realized that he was dead serious and obviously very well informed and educated. My understanding is that he was/if a college professor. Here are my notes for what they are worth. I was only able to copy down a fraction of what he said.
http://markelliottva.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/symbols4.pdf (http://markelliottva.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/symbols4.pdf)
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That's funny, my first impression was of a crazy man after being talked to for a half hour or so. And no, I don't believe RCA 126 carving is baby Jesus in the manger either. In all fairness, I'd like to know in detail how the inlay being discussed is symbolic of the rebirth of Christ. Yes, I think this stuff is largely hokum and know I'm not alone. Wasn't there an article discussed a few years ago concerning this subject?
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Mark,
That is interesting, the fleur de li which is the obvious finial on the scrolls of these rifles relate to that theory. The Earthly or Mother and the Father or Godly planting the seed or creating life. Both together significant of a dual existence, Earthly and Godly, Ying and Yang or Microcosm and Macrocosm.
Buck
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Jim,
Did you read through my notes? There is a progression in the symbols that makes some sense. Of course, you have to accept that such symbols are meaningful to some people and that they would include them in their art work.
I was raised in the church and am quite familiar with such symbols working their way into art long before I studied such things. After all, have you ever been to Sunday school as a child? You are taught to include many religious symbols in your art work. I expect that most everybody in 18th and early 19th century America had such an experience. Also look at the timing of the three Great Awakenings and look at what was happening in longrifle design and decoration at those times. I do not believe it is unrelated.
Also, as you study art history, you see symbols from the cultures' religious life sprinkled liberally throughout artistic works both directly and indirectly. As I mentioned, I have included such symbols in my own art work from childhood. It was part of my education in the culture in which I lived. It would never occur to me NOT to take such things seriously.
If you study art history, as I have, the presumption among scholars for centuries has been that art work is influenced by the most powerful forces in peoples life; most notably, reproduction (life & death) and religion (life and death). In fact, they are inextricably related.
If you contact Mr. Kafka, he is a KRA member and former president, I am sure he will point you to numerous resources that would address your questions.
Now. All of this being said, I don't believe most gun makers had any idea what the symbols there were using meant or were supposed to represent. You see this all the time as carving and engraving designs that were once quite clearly identifiable devolve over time into an highly abstract version of the original idea. One that I particularly like and have used many times in a more literal way, including on that rifle I completed about a year ago with the bold silver wire, is the Lilly of the Valley. The Lilly has long been associated with birth and rebirth. Why do you think churches are filled with them at Easter? If you look at the early Lancaster trained gunsmiths, many Moravian or trained by Moravians, you see a very clear representation of the lilly in the carving behind the cheek piece. This motif was brought to Winchester,VA by Simon Lauck. His early guns and those of his contemporaries showed this motif very clearly and identifiably.
As you move through time and south along the Great Wagon Road in the Valley of Virginia, you still see this same motif all over the place; but it becomes more abstract with time and distance until it bears little resemblance to the original motif that spawned it. and has probably lost all symbolic meaning to the maker. It is has become just the corruption of a design used by a master or contemporary whom may not have known the meaning either. That doesn't mean it didn't or doesn't have meaning. It is like the old philosophical question of if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound. The factual answer is that it does. The philosophical answer is not so clear. You, I take it would say no. I would tend to say yes it does. Both of these positions seem somewhat ironic to me with regard to rationality vs faith.
I understand your reluctance to engage in such thinking. Both my primary mentors were/are not religious people and had a very different view of such things as myself. Carving on my rifles that they would interpret as just a regurgitation of original designs and motifs have considerably more meaning to me. I, like Mr. Kafka, see my work as the result of God given talent and insight. My guns are a creation of God with a soul of sorts, and I am just the instrument. I genuinely believe that I am only able to do what I do through the power of the Holy Spirit. My carvings and wire work behind the cheek on many of my rifles represent to me the death and resurrection of Christ and the ultimate destruction of Satan's power on earth. If I believe this, why is it so hard to believe that some gun makers two hundred years ago might have believed this.
This idea of art having meaning is so ingrained in the historical idea of art that that is what you are taught at art school. I even rebelled against this a bit myself, only to later fully embrace it. In the fine art world, ART is not about design or aesthetics, it is about meaning. ART is supposed to be about stretching human thought and awareness, not just making something beautiful. In fact in art school and the fine art world, beauty for beauties sake is looked down upon. Not just that, it is ridiculed. You need to spend some time in art school critiques to understand how brutal the criticism can be. The point is that in every artistic tradition of which I am aware, art and meaning go hand in hand, like ying and yang. It is assumed for if it isn't there, it SHOULD BE there.
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Well said, Mark, and thank your for sharing your notes on symbolism from the seminar.
The idea of a weapon having a soul, or at least a propensity for doing good or evil, comes from many cultures throughout the world long before, throughout and after the 18th century right up to modern times.
Gumsmiths (and other tradesmen) in the 18th century who had a strong religious background (and the majority did) believed all good things came from at least the inspiration of God. Gunsmiths, especially, may have been (and many no doubt were) concerned about the weapons they created being used only for good reasons and not evil ones. Religious symbolism on guns may have had the added meaning to help ensure the guns were used for good purposes.
We also cannot discount the fact that many rifles were bespoke work (contracted for by an individual customer) and the customers may have demanded/requested/expected religious symbolism on the guns they ordered. That may have been grounded in religious belief or at least superstition, to benefit the gun and user.
Some original “decorations” on guns (and other weapons) were also inspired by Free Masonry, whether or not the symbolism was/is easily recognized (or not recognized at all) by those who were not or are not Free Masons.
Gus
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Mark,
Thanks for posting the notes, very interesting information and well said.
Buck
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Okay, I'll try one last time... The question at hand is whether the cheek inlays in question have a symbolic aspect, beyond obviously being derived from baroque. rococo, plant forms and scroll work. The question is not whether symbolism was at times used in the period. In a previous post I conceded that there are examples where this seems likely (fish, stars, lions, birds etc.). It was suggested that the inlays in question represented the rebirth of Christ. I'm simply asking for evidence to support this. I try to not make a claim here unless I have evidence to back it up. For example, if I said "that gun looks like it was made in Lancaster", and were questioned as to why, I wouldn't just say "because somebody told be so".
I'll also add that I get the feeling the idea of symbolism and it's over extrapolation gives some people a warm and fuzzy sort of feeling. And I also feel it sometimes touches a nerve concerning their religious beliefs. The original intent of the builder can never be determined at this point. For example he could have used fish on his stock just because he thought they looked cool. With that said, examples such as this have such a strong symbolic connotation it's hard to ignore. What I take issue with is when symbolism is extended to extreme limits. The evidence always seems to be scant at best in supporting these claims.
Help me out. Convince me this is more than some floral vine or scroll work. You haven't done it yet.
And Mark, yes I did go to Sunday school as a child and don't recall it being as you describe.
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I think a lot of the questions, believes or doubts regarding the symboligy on some of the rifles, especially the early ones, is simply due to the different times we live in.
Today, religion continues to decline in this country. Religious symbols are being taken down because they offend some of the population, and the doctrine in general is being dismissed by many, as nothing but old wives tales.
200 years ago, religion played a much more important part in people’s lives, and symboligy was a big part of religion. Back then, religion, myth and superstition were woven together such that most people honestly believed that the devil walked the earth creating mischief and luring people to $#*!. Today, I doubt that many have ever heard of that concept.
When I see an old rifle with those designs carved or inlayed and engraved on them I try to look at them in light of the times they were put there. To me, to doubt them is like believing the INRI that Beck and some of the other makers engraved on the bottom barrel flat are nothing more than the barrel makers initials.
Today, evidence to support this is just as easy to prove as proving that the devil never walked the earth creating mischief and luring people.
And by the time Schreck was making rifles, who knows if they had any meaning other than a pleasing design?
Go Carolina! Edit; so much for Carolina,,,, Go Chargers!!
John
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Jim,
I can't convince you because the scholarship is not mine. I am basing my interpretation on notes from Lorentz Kafka. The totality of his presentation rang true to me, and we do see the symbols he referenced in the decoration on American longrifles over and over again. You can see scrolls and floral elements expressed in all sorts of ways, yet we see many of the same designs over and over again. Were these design used just because nobody could come up with anything unique? You and I both, certainly have, so I don't think that is the case. I think we see certain designs over and over because they had significance. Beyond, that, I suggest you seek out Mr. Kafka. I don't need any further convincing. You do.
Best
Mark
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I personally find it hard to believe that there is not some form of symbolism attached to any truly creative endeavor. While the evidence may not exist to make declarative statements about what the meaning was to the creator....it seems as though you lose a great deal if you refuse to even engage in the exercise of simply considering the possibilities. The symbolism in this case may have been openly spiritual or it may have been more personal in nature....or maybe it wasn't even clearly defined by the artist himself....but to cut your own templates....and hand engrave a piece like that surely meant something....even if simply his own commitment to excellence. The fact that it is used repeatedly does seem to indicated that it is more than "just a design".
Even in todays society symbolism is everywhere. Will people 200 years from now understand exactly what every example meant to the individual who placed it there....certainly not. And often symbolism is hidden for various reasons. If it hadn't become public knowledge....would anybody have known for sure 200 years from now what JN8:12 symbolized on a Trijicon scope attached to an M-4 used in Afghanistan? I can just hear the debate now..... :)"surely it is a scriptural reference" >:( "no...it's just a serial number...where is the proof that it was otherwise".
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Shreck,
I am BARELY one step up from total ignorance on Pennsylvania Deutsch / German Fraktur Art and symbolism. Maybe I should be as part of our family started there in Lancaster County in the early/mid 18th century, though no gunsmiths. SHUCKS!!
However, in the following link there are what looks like two symbols that are the same basic symbols as on the cheek pieces you are asking about. They are under the Eagle and to the right and left of the tulip. The description says it was drawn in Bucks County, Circa 1838.
http://libwww.freelibrary.org/fraktur/detail.cfm?searchKey=0223036250&ItemID=frk00011
Maybe this will give you a starting point for further research?
Gus
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I am convinced Lorentz believes what he says. He is entertaining. I am not convinced he is right
My sunday school experiences involve biblical stories and bible verses. Artistic symbolism was not involved
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Though I don't wish to turn this into a religious discussion, it seems the Protestant Faiths that were more grounded in Calvinism (such as Methodists and Presbyterians) have little or no artistic symbolism taught in Sunday School. The ones that are closer to the Catholic Church (such as Lutherans and some Anglican Churches) had/have and used/use more symbology as does the Catholic Church. The Moravians were/are not really a "Protestant" Church as they were founded as a part of the Catholic Church about 100 years before the Protestant Reform Movement.
"People also made fraktur as a way to express religious beliefs or to help schoolchildren with their studies."
https://libwww.freelibrary.org/fraktur/
It is commonly granted the American Long Rifle was developed by the Pennsylvania Deutsch Gunsmiths. The "Fancy Dutch" were distinguished by trade with the "Non Dutch or Non Deutsch" AND their prominent use of religious and other symbolism (as opposed to the "Plain Dutch" like the Amish or Mennonites).
Though I agree that in later periods the meaning of the symbolism was lost to many (say during and Post Civil War period) and may have deformed into mere decoration, there can be little doubt that earlier symbolism definitely had religious and/or cultural meaning to some gunsmiths and their customers. Of course that is my opinion, but I'm "sticking to it" until it can be proven otherwise as the evidence in on the side of the symbolism having great religious and or cultural meaning at least in the 18th century.
Gus
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I am convinced Lorentz believes what he says. He is entertaining. I am not convinced he is right
My sunday school experiences involve biblical stories and bible verses. Artistic symbolism was not involved
You missed out on making a Gods-eye!? Now that I am thinking about it....I may have only made those when visiting a Catholic sunday school with a friend.
Artificer....the symbol that you found is most certainly the same....and it proves that either she just happened to like the same, obscure, meaningless design that is on the longrifle.....or more likely....this symbol has some importance placed upon it.
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I was raised in the Southern Baptist church, but the Bible I used as a teenager onward was a Catholic study bible. There were also plenty of religious, art, and history texts in my house growing up include some Judaica. Also, pretty much my entire mother's side of the family is Catholic and some of my best high school teachers were Catholic, the best, a former Jesuit priest. That guy was full of just all kinds of information. He had had a very broad education within the church university system here and in Europe. The Roman Catholic church being over 2000 years old is replete with all sorts of visual and literary symbols and traditions as are the closely related Anglican, Episcopal, and Lutheran churches. As someone else said, I believe the Moravians are very closely aligned with that tradition. The true Protestant churches rejected the explicit symbolism of the Catholic church and tried to strip it from their worship practice. They didn't get rid of all of it, and many of the symbols found their way back in over time.
As I was telling another member of this forum offline, a lot of symbols aren't taught as such. You just see them all the time and they begin to take on a meaning within the group that they don't necessarily have outside the group. I came up with a long list of examples that I will not repeat here.
I guess this is just a matter of believers vs. non-believers. ;)
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Here is a picture of a toe plate on a Henry Topper rifle and one headstone. The headstone is that of one of Henry Toppers daughter. Two of his daughters died while he was here in Hampshire County, both have these symbols on their stones... I believe that Henry engraved these stones. I think the asterisk like symbol meant something to him. I think it was spiritual in nature. There is ten of these symbols on this rifle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1017.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf295%2Flongrifle66%2Ftoppergraves009_zpsac2127e6.jpg&hash=45a372a32cb598e8939a74f234b00398af45dbb6) (http://s1017.photobucket.com/user/longrifle66/media/toppergraves009_zpsac2127e6.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1017.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf295%2Flongrifle66%2Ftopper001_zpsd6003988.jpg&hash=0b1348c2273fb99b89d0435eba2997d91a4df58a) (http://s1017.photobucket.com/user/longrifle66/media/topper001_zpsd6003988.jpg.html)
http://hampshirecountylongrifles.blogspot.com/search?q=topper
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In much the manner of Martin Luther ;) , something JUST occurred to me while going to the bathroom. See below and tell me what you think.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmarkelliottva.s3.amazonaws.com%2FBBS+Stuff%2Falpha_omega.jpg&hash=b0d12956aff95948c1ff99fa2dbe525bc0cef47d)
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The true Protestant churches rejected the explicit symbolism of the Catholic church and tried to strip it from their worship practice. They didn't get rid of all of it, and many of the symbols found their way back in over time.
As I was telling another member of this forum offline, a lot of symbols aren't taught as such. You just see them all the time and they begin to take on a meaning within the group that they don't necessarily have outside the group.
Definitely agree,
I grew up in the Methodist Church and remember VERY little symbology UNTIL in later years our Pastor began wearing special stole/vestments a few times a year with them. I asked my parents what all the symbols meant and they didn't know. I even asked my Dad's Mother, who was the DEFINITE Religious Matriarch of the family and she didn't know most of them.
Later when I switched to being a Presbyterian, there was also a little more symbolism displayed than in earlier times.
As I came to highly respect the Catholic Church in later years, because it seemed MOST of the Chaplains in the front lines with us were Catholic Priests, I was surprised at the amount of symbolism they still use. I mean no disrespect, but rather I just was ignorant of it growing up as I was never exposed to it.
Gus
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You may well be onto something there, Mark!
Gus
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Here is a picture of a toe plate on a Henry Topper rifle and one headstone. The headstone is that of one of Henry Toppers daughter. Two of his daughters died while he was here in Hampshire County, both have these symbols on their stones... I believe that Henry engraved these stones. I think the asterisk like symbol meant something to him. I think it was spiritual in nature. There is ten of these symbols on this rifle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1017.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf295%2Flongrifle66%2Ftoppergraves009_zpsac2127e6.jpg&hash=45a372a32cb598e8939a74f234b00398af45dbb6) (http://s1017.photobucket.com/user/longrifle66/media/toppergraves009_zpsac2127e6.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1017.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf295%2Flongrifle66%2Ftopper001_zpsd6003988.jpg&hash=0b1348c2273fb99b89d0435eba2997d91a4df58a) (http://s1017.photobucket.com/user/longrifle66/media/topper001_zpsd6003988.jpg.html)
http://hampshirecountylongrifles.blogspot.com/search?q=topper
Wow, great supporting evidence to be certain sure.
Gus
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Gus, The symbol on the Barbara Oberholzer fraktur you linked to is too similar to the inlays on these
rifles to be coincidental. Surely someone knows more than we do about these symbols. I'm wondering
who the expert on fraktur is. They might have the answer for us.
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While I take Christ on faith, I do not take someone's theories on gunmaking symbols to be the "gospel" without evidence. While it is possible that some sects may be more tied to symbolism more than others, there is no way to ascribe the PERSONAL meanings without the maker saying so. I suspect those cultures more into superstition and the like would take on material object representations more than others.
The asterisk engraving shown above can be found on every third or fourth common trigger bow or barrel made across the pond from 1670 thru the flint period. It was a form style based on something but I have know idea if it meant anything to the gun engraver or the guy whose name was on the gun. While the asterisk above could have had a spiritual meaning to the carver/maker it could also have just been an easy decoration that was learned early and done over and over. Without some documentation it is all speculation. Why do I say this? That symbol is the first thing I go to when quickly scratching something on a button, etc. ;D
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Mark, thanks for the notes on Franz Kafkas presentation. That had to be 20 pluss years ago! I remember sitting there and attempting to soak up the info he provided. I never was a coherent note taker. I remember him saying the c scrolls represented the Madonna and child. BJH
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I agree symbols may only have true meaning to the maker or his customer. But the makers & customers back in those days had tremendous amount of faith. They loved signs, designs, stars & dreams. That they believed in it, is all that matters to me. The argument that a symbol is so common, only makes more sense that it had a widely held meaning. I also have a little trouble believing they would waste valuable time etching something on a rifle that was totally meaningless. But I guess even that is possible.
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Okay, one more post ;).
Avlrc and others,
Why isn't the fact that something looks good and adds appeal in itself an adequate reason for someone spending time to create it? Do you really believe this in itself was not enough motivation? Does ornament and decoration always have to have a religious or symbolic connotation?
This has been an interesting thread, and I have to say that I'm pretty surprised by the view taken by many who have responded. It does provide things to consider though. I also have to wonder why subjects like this are so polarizing and ideas are held onto so dearly by some. I think the first sentence of James Rogers post says a lot and is a reasonable approach. What's wrong with evidence? Don't you all agree?
I agree that the example Gus posted a link to is pretty similar to some of the inlays in question. Quite a find. If there is evidence to suggest this is more than a generic floral motif, then I'll stand corrected about my view of these inlays.
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Okay, one more post ;).
Avlrc and others,
Why isn't the fact that something looks good and adds appeal in itself an adequate reason for someone spending time to create it? Do you really believe this in itself was not enough motivation? Does ornament and decoration always have to have a religious or symbolic connotation?
This has been an interesting thread, and I have to say that I'm pretty surprised by the view taken by many who have responded. It does provide things to consider though. I also have to wonder why subjects like this are so polarizing and ideas are held onto so dearly by some. I think the first sentence of James Rogers post says a lot and is a reasonable approach. What's wrong with evidence? Don't you all agree?
I agree that the example Gus posted a link to is pretty similar to some of the inlays in question. Quite a find. If there is evidence to suggest this is more than a generic floral motif, then I'll stand corrected about my view of these inlays.
I think as time went on these symbols were more for decoration. But when they first originated, many of them had meaning. Long before they were ever found on a rifle. Yes not every symbol or design, but many of them. The following one is just one example, the asterisk surrounded by a circle. Looks a lot like the Pinwheels & Asterisks that are so common on rifles.
http://www.creationtips.com/fish_symbol.html
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Gus, The symbol on the Barbara Oberholzer fraktur you linked to is too similar to the inlays on these
rifles to be coincidental. Surely someone knows more than we do about these symbols. I'm wondering
who the expert on fraktur is. They might have the answer for us.
Shreck,
The almost nothing I know about Fraktur Art was stirred when I saw the images of these inlays on your ancestor's rifles. So I plugged something like "Fraktur Art and Symbols" on Google and low and behold the third or fourth image I saw had the double symbols so close to the inlays on your rifle images. My jaw DROPPED!!! I can not even fathom the odds of that happening and especially after going back and looking over many more google pages and links to see if there was any kind of chart or charts with explanations of the symbols. (None that I found when I gave up, finally.)
I think Mark Elliot is on to something that this may be the stylized combined symbols of the Alpha and Omega after Revelations 1:8 (KJV)
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
What I might suggest is you call the Free Library and reference the Item Number and Title and ask if anyone has already done research to determine what that symbol is and of course if it might be as Mark suggested. I added the information below, together, to make it easier for you to refer to it; should you desire to call them. (I MOST certainly would if I were in your shoes.) If not, I would think SOMEONE there at the Library could point you towards someone who would know.
Item No: frk00011
Title: Drawing for Barbra Oberholtzer
Free Library of Philadelphia | Phone: 215-686-5322
Hope this helps,
Gus
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Mr. Meister,
Contact the DuPont Winterthur Museum in Wilimington, DE about the Fractur symbols.
Their collections are quite impresive, as are the staff and resource materials available.
Just my 2d of course. However, I grew up with all of those Shreckengosts' in Putneyville, and never knew what they were thinking or talking about ::) ::)
Peace Out....Shreck ( NOT Meister )
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I love my longrifles as much as anyone, but I am not going to deify man made objects.
Many of those guys were illiterate and strictly made what they learned in their apprenticship.
You guys sound like the fellow in the 1950's song where he tried to justify playing cards in church by applying religious symbolism to the deck of cards.
I ain't buying it
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Dan, I disagree with your premise that ALL these inlays were mass produced. Proof that this is NOT the case is
right here in the library under "tools of a gunsmith". Wm. Shreckengost's vast array of inlay templates are intact to this day
in a local collection and the cardboard they were cut from shows the partial name of a local hardware store here
in western PA. In other words he repurposed the hardware store boxes to make his templates.
I find it hard to grasp how I can spend my time
tracking down things to post on this forum for guys to learn from and
have guys look at them and refuse to acknowledge what they are seeing.
You don't need a template if you are buying them already cut out.
As for already engraved, this is also not the case. I won't bother with the electron microscope to prove that the
gravers and shaders were used on his guns and no others. It's clearly his hand on all his rifles.
Yes, there were mass produced inlays on later rifles, but the examples I provided were not.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2F2014-01-09_17-21-28_60_zps5edf0ff9.jpg&hash=fa49d9c5985db434c7c8d94e06bcded4eefedff3) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/2014-01-09_17-21-28_60_zps5edf0ff9.jpg.html)
Please note: "Many" does not mean "all". I fail to understand how someone could not understand this.
My comments regarding PURCHASED gun parts was simply an attempt to shed some light on the discussion. That using parts made by others has been a part of American firearms manufacture since DAY ONE is not even arguable. I am sorry if this interferes with some premise but its a fact.
If you REALLY want to understand the gun trade then you need to look for commercial sources. People just love, for example, to think that gunsmiths of the 18th c made their own barrels when in reality they bought most barrels and locks from EUROPE or for barrels at least from barrel forgers in PA by the 1770s. I know that by the 1860-70s there were hardware store catalogs with everything from ladies underwear to gun parts, including inlays, to baby carriages to freight wagons shown. The railroads changed EVERYTHING. There are inlays, like the key escutcheons on the Atchinson Hawken that appear in identical or slightly modified form from Coast to Coast on 19th c rifles, including one of the rifles you pictured.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FP1030162.jpg&hash=398ff019b1aaf81ed7e7403d0e4b1a1344ab41ff)
Did Shreckengost make ALL the inlays and patchboxes? Its entirely possible he did, but its also possible he bought some or copied them or at least copied some details given the time frame.
I think if you will look you will find that similar scroll shapes are found on rifles from the late 18th c onwards almost everywhere. Done right and in the right place its an attractive feature. Its used as decoration on both forends and buttstocks. Seems like a similar scroll was used on Bedfords as forend escutcheons. In fact a similar design is worked into the side plates on the silver patchbox of the Atchinson Hawken made in 1836. I am sure the inlays on this rifle were purchased in St Louis rather than shop made.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FP1030169.jpg&hash=29542160de4f738c669e4e328fcd7ae2d102e418)
If we look at the late fancy rifles in "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850" there are several versions of this scroll design as inlays, sideplates and in patchbox sideplates. This being the case trying to give it some special meaning to someones use of it is simply not possible. It seems to be a common design element used on American rifles. If one LOOKS for it.
The 4 lines crossing as an engraving pattern, representing an 8 point star maybe, are found elsewhere as well. Its something to fill an empty space and "dress it up". Does the star represent the baby Jesus? Could be. The Fish might represent Christianity as well etc etc. But unless we can get into the MAKERS head its SUPPOSITION. There are other instances of folk art appearing on rifles and then similar art on stone work in America. Especially when the stone work is associated with a rifle maker. Squire Boone for example.
By the end of the first quarter of the 19th c. inlays were replacing carving as stock decorations in America. If someone here can figure out the "symbolism" of the apparent "loaded in a shotgun and shot into the stock" inlay decoration often found on guns of the 19th c, including the cheek side of the Atchinson Hawken, please feel free to post it here. Or write a book.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FCody%2520Guns%2FP1030164_2.jpg&hash=aae4ff274cc0f7712b746c773e1fceb43bab7ac6)
For example is this a stylized "Allentown Indian"? Probably not. But if we want to suppose we can suppose anything.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FCody%2520Guns%2FP1030160.jpg&hash=7b828001c526677583767861fcaafc2f96a46300).
Gunmakers would find or invent a striking design and USE it or ELEMENTS of it. They did not have the computer to help them find things so assuming that some gunmaker (or many) has included an inlay resembling some obscure design for some secret meaning is unlikely.
Religious symbols might apply in some cases. But while Beck used INRI he did not use more overt signs that I know of.
Masonic symbols are not that uncommon. The square and compass for example.
PA Dutch/German folk art might be used or the folk art might be influenced by the firearms decoration. How anyone could be surprised to find PA folk art on a rifle from PA or rifles made anywhere a PA rifle might be carried to its a surprise in itself.
If people put forth ideas here they will provoke discussion. I had no idea that mentioning a common truth, purchased gun parts, regarding American firearms making would gore an ox.
Dan
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While I take Christ on faith, I do not take someone's theories on gunmaking symbols to be the "gospel" without evidence. While it is possible that some sects may be more tied to symbolism more than others, there is no way to ascribe the PERSONAL meanings without the maker saying so. I suspect those cultures more into superstition and the like would take on material object representations more than others.
The asterisk engraving shown above can be found on every third or fourth common trigger bow or barrel made across the pond from 1670 thru the flint period. It was a form style based on something but I have know idea if it meant anything to the gun engraver or the guy whose name was on the gun. While the asterisk above could have had a spiritual meaning to the carver/maker it could also have just been an easy decoration that was learned early and done over and over. Without some documentation it is all speculation. Why do I say this? That symbol is the first thing I go to when quickly scratching something on a button, etc. ;D
You are correct the 8 point "asterisk type star" as shown on the gravestone and toe plate in the post above was found over a long range of time and is still in use today by German Lutherans and some other Protestant Sects (especially German Protestants). Today it is often referred to as "The Baptismal Cross."
"Baptismal - This Greek cross is superimposed on a Greek chi, the first letter of the Greek word for Christ. It forms a cross with eight arms. Since the number eight is symbolic of rebirth or regeneration, this cross is often used as a baptismal cross. "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." - Titus 3:5 "
http://www.lutheransonline.com/servlet/lo_ProcServ/dbpage=page&mode=display&gid=20052995655655607101111555&pg=20053040942236960101111555
"Judeo-Christian:
The number eight frequently represents beginnings, resurrection, salvation and super-abundance. This has to do, in part, with the fact that the number seven is a number of completion. The eighth day, for example, is the first day of a new seven-day week, and a Jewish child enters into God's Covenant on the eighth day of life via circumcision."
http://altreligion.about.com/od/symbols/p/Octagrams-Eight-Pointed-Stars.htm
Because the 8 point Cross represents beginnings, resurrection and salvation - it was used on Birth Certificates and on Grave Stones as well as other things..
Thus the evidence of a Pennsylvania Deutsh Gunsmith engraving it on his child's gravestone absolutely means it was of significant importance to him and had religious meanings.
Now, of course others might not have known what it meant, even in the historic time period, and many do not know what it means today. So to many people who don't understand, it is purely decoration.
Gus
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Dan, I'm thinking no amount of discussion is going to make us interpret what we are seeing here
in a similar light. You stated the inlays are "STYLIZED decoration, decoration". My interpretation from that and the remainder of your writing is that you are saying they are devoid of meaning. You
prefaced that with "Let me clarify". That makes me think you were not throwing out ideas, but rather
telling me how it is and I've always been somewhat opposed to that.
Not trying to gore you, only intended to make my point as adamantly as you were making yours.
The more I think about this, the more interested I am in what separates folks into these two different
perspectives about these inlays. To me, that's more interesting than whether the inlays have meaning or not.
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Don,
I think you only cemented what I had already stated, the majority of the populous was illiterate and symbolism was a form of communication. Although a lot of the symbolism on the long rifles are religious in nature as you stated they are not to be deified. Still this has been one of the most interesting threads here in a long while, thanks Rob for getting the ball rolling.
Buck
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Here's another similar one from the library.
http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww81/ALRLIBRARY/LONG%20RIFLE/Unknown%200%20090301-1/09.jpg
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Most beliefs, then and now, are distributed differently through a population. For some eighteenth- or early nineteenth-century people, these symbols would have (still) carried meaning; for others, they would have become "mere" decoration. Different gunsmiths in different places would have believed differently, and the same is true for their customers. So it seems to me that, without some other information, it is impossible to know in any particular case whether these carried meaning or not. To try to be more certain, without additional information about the particular case, is to go beyond what the evidence allows.
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It makes perfect sense to me that when JP Beck put INRI on the bottom of his barrels, it had religious meaning for him. Some of the other stuff, I am not convinced. If some of the symbols we see on longrifles were so important to people, I am not sure why they are not inlayed or carved on hammer handles, scythe snaths, wagon wheels, harness hanes, embroidered on clothing, and made into brooches and pendants.
Take some folding money out of your wallet. Look at all the crazy symbolic stuff on there. Sure some of it has meaning to someone, sometime, but it means nothing to me except what I can buy with it. I'm not feeling anything about the pyramid or great seal. I know they stand for something and have deep symbolic meaning but ask the guy on the street what they mean to him. Some people get all excited about hidden meanings, codes, secret societies, and probably cherish what's found on dollar bills. But not most of us. If they changed it tomorrow I would not care.
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So Rich....now you speak for "most of us"? As for "If some of the symbols we see on longrifles were so important to people, I am not sure why they are not inlayed or carved on hammer handles, scythe snaths, wagon wheels, harness hanes, embroidered on clothing, and made into brooches and pendants"
it seems to me that a man's rifle in 1800s was a pretty important part of his life, in fact it might have
depended on it. It would have been a status symbol about who he was, particularly the very artful
pieces I am confident were elaborately done because he wanted to show everyone he was a man
of status. Kinda like BMW drivers today....forgive me if you drive one strictly for the great engineering.
Expanding on that thought, I see a lot of bumper stickers with symbols today. I think they have meaning
too, not just decoration for your car.
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It makes perfect sense to me that when JP Beck put INRI on the bottom of his barrels, it had religious meaning for him. Some of the other stuff, I am not convinced. If some of the symbols we see on longrifles were so important to people, I am not sure why they are not inlayed or carved on hammer handles, scythe snaths, wagon wheels, harness hanes, embroidered on clothing, and made into brooches and pendants.
Take some folding money out of your wallet. Look at all the crazy symbolic stuff on there. Sure some of it has meaning to someone, sometime, but it means nothing to me except what I can buy with it. I'm not feeling anything about the pyramid or great seal. I know they stand for something and have deep symbolic meaning but ask the guy on the street what they mean to him. Some people get all excited about hidden meanings, codes, secret societies, and probably cherish what's found on dollar bills. But not most of us. If they changed it tomorrow I would not care.
Exactly! As with guns, people have forgot the meaning of the symbols on paper money, and don't care any longer.
But that doesn't mean that the symbols weren't important at one time, whether on money or guns, just that people have forgotten and its no longer important.
John
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Another time ;) Putting the intent of the original builder aside (refer to spgordon's post and others). I think it needs to be driven home that not all decoration and ornament need have a symbolic meaning. Why do some think by default it must? The vast majority of decoration on a longrifle is simply that. If you don't except that, are we to believe that examples like the back to back C-scroll carving used so extensively in Lancaster has symbolic meaning? The list could go on and on. Where would it end? Is everything on the longrifle a symbol by default? If not, surely you must require some reasoning to differentiate. In terms of decoration, why can't it be simply ornament based on baroque / rococo / plant forms etc? As someone who has spent a significant amount of time designing ornament for the longrifle this seems PERFECTLY logical and reasonable. Again, there are obviously cases were symbolism was used (fish, stars, animals, masonic symbols etc.), buy purely ornamental scroll work or designs with no hidden meaning is entirely reasonable. I would endorse taking the approach that there is no hidden symbolic meaning unless it is proven to be the case. Why would you take any other approach?
I've asked a number of questions here and if someone who doesn't agree would answer them it would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim
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I am not sure I'm arrogant enough to say that I speak for most of us. Could be, though. Generally when I say something like that, I mean, what I am conveying is common to most of the folks I know, across generations and walks of life.
That the decorations found on longrifles have deep meanings is very important to some collectors and students. I get a sense that some connect these symbols with their views of a pure and holy past and a decadent present time. Yet the presence of clearly spiritual bumper stickers in the present suggests to me a more direct and clear declaration of faith than many of the motifs found on period rifles, horns, etc. I respect and applaud those who are spiritually minded and who are encouraged or think of their beliefs when they see decorations that are symbolic to them. The decorations I see don't do that for me in the way a cross, the name Jesus, or an icthus (spelling wrong?) does. From my understanding, the Christian fish symbol was used in early days as a secret code because Christians were persecuted to the pain of death. Not broadly the case in 18th century America.
I love the longrifle and consider it a wonderful American art form, otherwise I would not have studied it for over 40 years. But that our ancestor revered their guns and used them to state their beliefs in a way that was unique to that tool, is not proven to me. That a man depended on his rifle in many cases is clear, but A man might do as well with an axe or a knife than a rifle in an emergency. Knives and axes don't run out of bullets or powder or refuse to work when wet, and a man might carry a sword or knife more often than a firearm. Yet we see little of those same decorative motifs that are imbued with meaning on edged tools. That is curious and enigmatic to me.
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Knowing very little about what early gunsmiths were thinking when they made their rifles; I have a theory about why they used certain inlay forms. I believe it is for the same reason I used particular inlay forms on my first builds. They copied the forms that were used by their teachers and fellow makers. It's the same reason I use an "F" hole shape when I make a violin. It's the traditional and expected form of decoration and function.
A few makers "invent" a decoration. Most others simply repeat what they see. In time, the form gets changed, or evolves a little, until it no longer has the same meaning. I don't think most makers knew what the original design was supposded to represent.
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Yes, and don't forget that the primary reason a gunsmith was making guns was to earn money. Plain and simple. A gun with well executed decoration has more appeal to many than something plane. This makes the product more desirable. A good thing for the gunsmith in a competitive environment. You can be sure they stole decorative design elements wherever they could. It's pretty clear they even stole (borrowed) from each other. The view that the longrifle is some hallowed sacred object created by only the devout is a fantasy in my opinion.
As an aside, I've thought it interesting how our perspective of history can effect our interpretation. A while back I saw a program on the man who was frozen in the ice in the Alps I believe. I think he had been frozen for some 5000 years or so. It showed how had been shot and took a somewhat sympathetic view. They posed scenarios of how he had been followed and how he headed to the mountains for protection but met his end. What about the scenario that he could have been a scoundrel that deserved to be shot and killed! There's a reason we take the views we do. There must be some payoff or we wouldn't. It's worth considering if the truth is important.
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Knowing very little about what early gunsmiths were thinking when they made their rifles; I have a theory about why they used certain inlay forms. I believe it is for the same reason I used particular inlay forms on my first builds. They copied the forms that were used by their teachers and fellow makers. It's the same reason I use an "F" hole shape when I make a violin. It's the traditional and expected form of decoration and function.
A few makers "invent" a decoration. Most others simply repeat what they see. In time, the form gets changed, or evolves a little, until it no longer has the same meaning. I don't think most makers knew what the original design was supposded to represent.
Consider further the period that we are talking about. Today we are bombarded with symbols everywhere. Back then, there were far fewer symbols, I think they knew exactly what it symbolized and why they were using it in
the day.
Here I quote someone who has given thought to instrument F holes.
"The word for 'sound' in Latin is 'sonas'. In Italian it is 'suono'. In French it is 'son'. In Spanish it is 'sonido'. At the time that the violin family was evolving, Latin was the formal written language. This is seen by the use of Latin versions of the names of the maker and city on the label of the instrument. I will make a not too stretched conjecture and say that the early violin makers were putting 's' holes, or 'sonas' holes in their instruments. As the letters changed form, our name for the sound holes changed with them."
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The view that the longrifle is some hallowed sacred object created by only the devout is a fantasy in my opinion.
Though I can't speak for anyone but the Shreckengosts, I know they were devout enough to donate the
land upon which the first Lutheran Church in our county was built and church services were held at their
home before the church was built. So it may or may not be a stretch to think they were showing it in their work.
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I hope nothing said here is interpreted as judging the faith of gunsmiths who decorated their products with motifs that are interesting to speculate about.
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Not at all Rich. I am just offering my observations on one gunsmithing family. I can't make
assumptions that it applies to others.
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Shreckmeister, Not to hijack your thread, but where is this Lutheran church?
I do agree that while a lot of the carving and inlays we see on longrifles or furniture and also the patterns woven into cloth would have originally had a spiritual meaning for the maker, several generations later the same or very similar design would have been used simply for its artistic value alone with no intention of it meaning anything.
Mark Poley
Though I can't speak for anyone but the Shreckengosts, I know they were devout enough to donate the
land upon which the first Lutheran Church in our county was built and church services were held at their
home before the church was built. So it may or may not be a stretch to think they were showing it in their work.
[/quote]
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Its interesting to hear the different thoughts about the "symbols" used on early longrifles. I am afraid I don't have an opinion since I can see good arguments for each view expressed. I am interested in your thoughts on the "prayer holes" found on some early PA rifles and how they fit into this discussion.
Dennis
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I want to make it clear, and have written it a couple of times at least in this thread, that not all symbols had Christian or Religious meanings. Reading some posts that seems to be the view some have taken. However, the opposite side is just as unsupportable, I.E. that all or most symbols were mere decoration and especially when the Longrifle came from a culture where symbolism was important and even used more than in other areas of the country back then.
Actually, the letters INRI and other religious symbols have been found on the wooden parts of historic tools that were placed there by the owners and especially if it was considered “proper” by their culture. Normally it was the more expensive tools, though they are occasionally found on the tools the tradesmen used the most. However, according to most Catholic sources, the words “Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum” were abbreviated to INRI until the 13th century, as even many of the Nobles could not read until that time – let alone the Serfs or common people.
Most of us today don’t know why symbols were/are used on paper money. Some folks point to the fact the more intricate the engravings, the harder it was/is to counterfeit the money and since that is still true, that’s the most known reason. However when paper money was new and people had been used to bartering and using coins that had REAL value from the metal they were made from; the reason that fancy engravings were added was to convince people that paper money had value for other than a “pretty piece of paper.” (Once again, communication.) It was and remains true that people have to believe paper money is worth something or it has no value. (This is also why the words “Silver Certificate” was used on U.S. paper money between 1878 and 1964 because by that time many more people could read and it assured the money holder the paper had value, ESPECIALLY after we went off the Gold Standard.) Today the majority of us automatically look at paper money as having value, so symbolism is not as important.
Many of what only looks like “patterns” to most people in Pennsylvania Deutsch quilts had religious meanings when first used, though now the meanings have been almost lost or lost. What are commonly called “Hex Signs” today were no such thing at the time and the thought they could have been “Hex Signs” would have been considered blasphemous.
Now “regular” and much of “their best” clothing of the lower classes were normally not stitched or embroidered with symbols, with the main exception of special Pennsylvania Deutsch (and some other culture’s clothing), BUT only by the “Fancy Dutch” and not the “Plain Dutch.” Women just did not have the Labor Time to do it as standard practice. There were some religious symbols stitched into some Wedding Dresses, though. We have all but FORGOTTEN how many women regularly died in childbirth and how many chlldren died in infancy or as youngsters in the 18th and 19th centuries and such symbolism was a written prayer for her future children, her husband and herself.
What about symbology in stitches? Though “Samplers” have been used since Egyptian times to show and teach both men and women how to do certain stitches, Ladies Samplers REALLY caught on in the 17th century throughout Europe and came to Northern America. For the women of the lower classes, the Samplers were often/usually displayed or presented to suitors to show the woman could at least sew well enough to keep her husband, herself and her children in clothes, of course. For upper classes, the fine needlepoint demonstrated the woman was “of quality.” Symbolism and often Religious Symbolism was stitched right into many of those Samplers. This demonstrated piety to society and suitors and of course found more in the cultures that valued that more. Later on in the late 18th century and 19th centuries when we see the Alphabet on many Ladies Samplers, demonstrating the woman showed extra “value” or “Quality” to a prospective husband that she could read; we see religious phrases or actual quotes from the Bible, though Religious Symbology was still used, albeit perhaps less frequently since more people could read.
Now I understand that most people today do not rely on symbolism for communications as most people today can read and write, but that was not true in the 18th century and much of the 19th century. That is perhaps why it is so hard for many people to understand today how important symbols were back then.
Of course, the funny thing is we are seeing a sort of “reverse trend” in communications with codes or symbols coopting the written word as “Texting” has become so important and popular to so many people. Further, there is a whole new world of symbols used with emails that perhaps 100 years from now, most people will have no idea of what it meant or its importance in communication. It seems symbols are still very important to many people today.
Gus
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I want to make it clear, and have written it a couple of times at least in this thread, that not all symbols had Christian or Religious meanings. Reading some posts that seems to be the view some have taken. However, the opposite side is just as unsupportable, I.E. that all or most symbols were mere decoration and especially when the Longrifle came from a culture where symbolism was important and even used more than in other areas of the country back then.
Gus,
The difference is that these designs are most often derivations of more academic baroque and rococo designs with plant forms mixed in. This can easily be defended to the point that I don't think anyone would disagree. The problem arises when these carving, engraving designs etc. are given further symbolic meaning without support. If someone can clearly defend something having further meaning then I would gladly accept it. Are you suggesting I take your word for it? Are you suggesting that since the longrifle came form a culture where symbolism was important that I should extrapolate this view to the point that I should by default believe that it is contained in otherwise generic floral, scrollwork designs? I challenge you to give me examples. Not of the obvioius symbolism that I've mentioned many times (fish, lions etc.), but that which is imbedded in the types of designs I've outlined above. Next, back up these claims with a solid rational argument that proves your case. The reason I've been very specific as to narrowing the scope to scroll and floral motifs is that they are seen all over longrifles and this is very pertinent to the designs questioned in this thread. Could there be symbolism in these sorts of designs? Sure, lots of things are possible including this. What i would like, is for something substantial to support these views. Seems I've been saying this all along and I'm starting to tire. Maybe a good exercise would be to open up RCA, go through each gun presented and make a case for the symbolism present in the decorative floral scrollwork elements.
Jim
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Jim,
"The view that the longrifle is some hallowed sacred object created by only the devout is a fantasy in my opinion".
To the above, I can't speak about other gunsmith in other areas, but from the ones I researched here where I live, many of them were a "Church Going God Fearing Bunch". Here is just a few examples.
Frederick Sheetz ,
Elder #1: Frederick Sheetz, b 11 Nov 1774; Ordained 12 Jun 1819 at Mt. Bethel; Installed Fall of 1833; Removal 18 Jan 1861, Died
Zebulon Sheetz,
. On November 9, 1825, he was ordained an elder at the new church, and became the first Clerk of the Session. July 28, 1827, the Session met in his home in Bethel Valley. August 1835, his wife, mother, and son, Austin Cram were given letters "to any Presbyterian church in the West," and on August 30, the Session adopted this resolution, 'Whereas Zebulon Sheetz, an elder in this church, is about removing to the West, Session takes this method of expressing their warm attachment to him as a Christian brother, and their sense of his usefulness as a fellow officer in the Church of Christ, their regret at his loss, and their prayerful desire for his future peace and proseperity.'"
Simeon Ward,
Simeon was a gunsmith and is stated as such in the 1850 census. He also preached the gospel and belonged to the Timber Ridge Christian Church near High View . He even traveled with Rev. Christy Sine ( 1798-1858) spreading the message of salvation and the word of God. In the 1860 census Simeon is living with his son Evan P Ward. Evan is listed as a Gunsmith and Simeon is noted as a " Minister of the Gospel".
Roland Savage Dayton,
"After the Civil War the Methodist Church at Headsville West Virginia, had no preacher, A preacher & Gunsmith from McCoole, Maryland walked from McCoole Maryland to hold services".( by the way that is about 7 mile straight line)
This is just a few that come to my head right now. Seems like the gunsmiths around here would just as soon carry on the word of their God, as to make rifles. I have a strong thought that they gave their God the credit for their gunsmithing skills. I am sure they were a few nonbelievers in the gun making trade.
Mark
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Yeah, and they may have come home from church and threw their wife around. How would you know any different?
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WHAAAAT??? Downright silly comment!
Dick
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Silly? My point is that we make assumptions about people based on little evidence. I think this is often self serving in some way. You think that just because someone went to church on a regular basis, that it was significant to them? Specific to this discussion, significant in such a way that they would imbed symbolic religious designs in rococo carving and engraving patterns and designs. Perhaps to some, but certainly not to all. Like I said, it's possible, but prove it. Gunsmiths attending church doesn't cut it. I'm still a skeptic.
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Yeah, and they may have come home from church and threw their wife around. How would you know any different?
And they might not have!
How would you know any different?
As for church going gunsmiths, toss in Dickert, and all the Moravains that worked in the church owned and operated gunshops.
Also, religious symbols are more on the rare side, than common, on rifles, and certainly not all decorations are religious. Of the 20 or so guns I have, I don't think a single one has any religious symboligy,,, other one with a possible prayer hole.
I think Gus explained the whole thing pretty well.
Interesting thoughts here,
John
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Jim,
It would seem very reasonable to me , that if a man was a Elder or Preacher and he made guns, he may like to put a symbol or two on a few of his rifles that reminded him of his spirituality.
As for self serving, I don't understand. I don't build guns, never put a religious symbol, or any other symbol on anything I have or ever owned,(that I can remember), & I have not been to church other than funerals/weddings since I was a child. Nothing self serving here on my part.
I like the discussion though.
Mark
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By self serving I mean that sometimes our perspective and assumptions are self serving when looking back on the past. Rich, previously brought up this point. Might refer to his post. For example, someone disappointed with the state of religion today, might take comfort in viewing the past as a much more pure and religious time. The problem arises if these self serving aspects interfere in the goal to uncover what really happened or was true.
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By self serving I mean that sometimes our perspective and assumptions are self serving when looking back on the past. Rich, previously brought up this point. Might refer to his post. For example, someone disappointed with the state of religion today, might take comfort in viewing the past as a much more pure and religious time. The problem arises if these self serving aspects interfere in the goal to uncover what really happened or was true.
Ok, I see. I guess by your definition of self serving, my sentimentalism for the past could make me somewhat guilty of that crime. However, I don't think I ever let that stand in the way of trying to search for the truth, when it comes to history.
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I want to make it clear, and have written it a couple of times at least in this thread, that not all symbols had Christian or Religious meanings. Reading some posts that seems to be the view some have taken. However, the opposite side is just as unsupportable, I.E. that all or most symbols were mere decoration and especially when the Longrifle came from a culture where symbolism was important and even used more than in other areas of the country back then.
Gus,
The difference is that these designs are most often derivations of more academic baroque and rococo designs with plant forms mixed in. This can easily be defended to the point that I don't think anyone would disagree. The problem arises when these carving, engraving designs etc. are given further symbolic meaning without support. If someone can clearly defend something having further meaning then I would gladly accept it. Are you suggesting I take your word for it? Are you suggesting that since the longrifle came form a culture where symbolism was important that I should extrapolate this view to the point that I should by default believe that it is contained in otherwise generic floral, scrollwork designs? I challenge you to give me examples. Not of the obvioius symbolism that I've mentioned many times (fish, lions etc.), but that which is imbedded in the types of designs I've outlined above. Next, back up these claims with a solid rational argument that proves your case. The reason I've been very specific as to narrowing the scope to scroll and floral motifs is that they are seen all over longrifles and this is very pertinent to the designs questioned in this thread. Could there be symbolism in these sorts of designs? Sure, lots of things are possible including this. What i would like, is for something substantial to support these views. Seems I've been saying this all along and I'm starting to tire. Maybe a good exercise would be to open up RCA, go through each gun presented and make a case for the symbolism present in the decorative floral scrollwork elements.
Jim
I don't disagree that Generic Scrolls or Floral Designs might well have been or only were decorative. I am not suggesting that all decoration was religious or even had special meanings. That does not mean that some were not, at least in the earliest stages and depending on who originally engraved or marked them.
If a "Lutheran Rose" is found on a Pennsylvania Deutsch rifle, instead of a stylized rose, then it would be a pretty sure bet the intention of the person who engraved it was religious.
If a Masonic symbol is found on a rifle, it is a pretty safe bet that at least the original engraver OR owner was a Mason.
The original subject of this thread was on an inlay design that has been found on German Fraktur Art, that I already linked. That gives evidence showing it was at least cultural, though I agree not necessarily religious, even though it was on a Birth Certificate. However, the fact it was used on a Birth Certificate merits more investigation by someone more knowledgeable than I as to what, if any meaning it had/has. The only way to know for sure is further research on the origin of the symbol.
Elegant proof has already been provided earlier in this thread of the Gunsmith who engraved what is known today as "The Baptismal Cross" on the toe plate of one rifle shown and the Gravestone he engraved for his daughter. Here is one of the few times we actually have proof "chiseled in stone" that to that Gunsmith it most definitely had religious meaning, as it did in his culture and remains today in the Lutheran Church as shown by the links I provided.
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Gus
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When is the origin of this being known as a baptismal cross? The link provided no source and no history and I could not find any credible source to date it's significance. Any futher information is appreciated.
This symbol is a much used design on 18th century English guns. I assume none of those makers were Lutheran.
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Artificer,
Yeah! I think we are coming to more of an agreement in understanding. Overt symbolism has never been questioned. Refer to my posts and all the times I've mentioned the fish, lions, masonic symbols etc. What I have been questioning is symbolism contained in rococo decorative elements. The reason this is pertinent is because that is EXACTLY what is being questioned with the inlays being presented! I think it's pretty interesting that a fraktur example was found with very similar features. But the fact remains, this could merely be a decorative ornamental motif, with no further meaning. If symbolism was used on the longrifle outside the obvious examples and specifically in rococo decorative designs, all I'm asking for is evidence to support this. A lot of anecdotal evidence has been presented, but in the end it does little to prove a point. Further I must say that I have heard arguments for this sort of thing in the past and they always seem week at best, so maybe I come into this with a predisposed opinion. RCA 126 carving behind the cheek is an example. It's been suggested by someone, apparently well respected by many, that this is representative of the baby Jesus in the manger. In all these cases the evidence in my view ends up being scant at best. If I look at the clouds I can see images as well. If it's so, that's cool, but I am a logical reasonable person and it takes such to convince me.
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When is the origin of this being known as a baptismal cross? The link provided no source and no history and I could not find any credible source to date it's significance. Any futher information is appreciated.
This symbol is a much used design on 18th century English guns. I assume none of those makers were Lutheran.
How about an example of a Baptismal Cross from 1271, and no it was not just used by Lutherans, but by many Christian sects.
http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/baptismal.html
Gus
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An even earlier example, though not called A Baptismal Cross at this time:
"IX Monogram Christliche Symbolik (Menzel) I 193 4.jpg[edit]
An early form of the monogram of Christ, found in early Christian ossuaries in Palestinia, was formed by superimposing the first (capital) letters of the Greek words for Jesus and Christ, i.e. iota Ι and chi Χ, so that this monogram means "Jesus Christ".[15]:166 Another more complicated explanation of this monogram was given by Ireneaus[18] and Pachomius: because the numeric value of iota is 10 and the chi is the initial of the word "Christ" (Greek: XPEIΣTOΣ) which has 8 letters, these early fathers calculate 888 ((10*8)*10)+((10*8)+8) which was a number already known to represent Jesus, being the sum of the value of the letters of the name "Jesus" (Greek: IHΣΟΥΣ) (10+8+200+70+400+200).[15]:169–170"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_symbolism
Gus
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Artificer,
Yeah! I think we are coming to more of an agreement in understanding. Overt symbolism has never been questioned. Refer to my posts and all the times I've mentioned the fish, lions, masonic symbols etc. What I have been questioning is symbolism contained in rococo decorative elements. The reason this is pertinent is because that is EXACTLY what is being questioned with the inlays being presented! I think it's pretty interesting that a fraktur example was found with very similar features. But the fact remains, this could merely be a decorative ornamental motif, with no further meaning. If symbolism was used on the longrifle outside the obvious examples and specifically in rococo decorative designs, all I'm asking for is evidence to support this. A lot of anecdotal evidence has been presented, but in the end it does little to prove a point. Further I must say that I have heard arguments for this sort of thing in the past and they always seem week at best, so maybe I come into this with a predisposed opinion. RCA 126 carving behind the cheek is an example. It's been suggested by someone, apparently well respected by many, that this is representative of the baby Jesus in the manger. In all these cases the evidence in my view ends up being scant at best. If I look at the clouds I can see images as well. If it's so, that's cool, but I am a logical reasonable person and it takes such to convince me.
Jim,
I'm still amazed I so easily found the symbol in the linked Fraktur Art Birth Certificate. I hope Shreck follows this up and finds out, so he can share it with all of us!
Gus
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Thanks for the additional Gus I wil continue to seek primary documentation on it. It also appears the same symbol was used by earlier pagan cultures as well.
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Dan, I'm thinking no amount of discussion is going to make us interpret what we are seeing here
in a similar light. You stated the inlays are "STYLIZED decoration, decoration". My interpretation from that and the remainder of your writing is that you are saying they are devoid of meaning. You
prefaced that with "Let me clarify". That makes me think you were not throwing out ideas, but rather
telling me how it is and I've always been somewhat opposed to that.
Not trying to gore you, only intended to make my point as adamantly as you were making yours.
The more I think about this, the more interested I am in what separates folks into these two different
perspectives about these inlays. To me, that's more interesting than whether the inlays have meaning or not.
To again clarify.
(clarify |ˈklarəˌfī| 1 make (a statement or situation) less confused and more clearly comprehensible)
MY statement. "Many" (many a —— a large number of) does not mean "all" (used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing) is a direct answer to you trying to change the meaning of my post by indicating that I had stated "all" instead of "many". In this case "many" means the a goodly number of firearms parts of all kinds were manufactured and sold to gunmakers. Including but not limited to inlays. This is irrefutable. We might argue who did or did not use them at what time etc. but that they were available is a fact.
There were TONS of firearms hardware and inlays made and marketed by various firms in the US and England and surely on the Continent as well. I did not make it up to irritate people. If it irritates you you might want to ask why this is the case.
The cheekpiece inlay in your post seems to be a Rococo form. It could easily be based on a form that came from some 18th c pattern book drawn by some artist in Paris or somewhere else in Europe. This is very real possibility or the idea may have come from some ornament on a rifle brought in for repair. This riflemaker did not operate in a vacuum afterall.
I would suggest that rifles by John Armstrong in Kindig be looked at. Specifically the scroll work cut into a number of his patchbox lids. Same basic layout of the scrolls.
The 4 line engraved feature on the toe plate and head stone is not what a star really looks like, nor is it exactly an 8 point Baptismal cross which it could easily be a stylized version of (look to Lutheran symbols). To a Lutheran the 4 line engraved "star" is a Baptismal cross or the first Greek letter of "Christ" (X) with a cross superimposed. I had to look it up (these discussions are always educational). This would be a appropriate on a headstone. The fish is also a religious symbol to Christianity but making the case that EVERY fish on a gun is intended to be a Christian statement is a stretch. Or every 8 pointed engraving for that matter.
Beck used INRI on his barrels. Its pretty hard to question INRI and he surely knew this. It rises to the level of a statement and is not meant as decoration IMO.
The Eagle with a shield and/or clasping arrows etc found on oval inlays from about the Federal period onward is hard to not attribute to the new country but there does not seem to be a hidden meaning here its kinda in your face. Statements like "We Are One" with a 13 point star is pretty easy to figure too. Its not some oblique hidden reference. It pretty plain spoken. I have no idea what the man in 1/4 or 1/2 moon means other than it looks good as do properly done scrolls.
Dan
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Thanks for the additional Gus I wil continue to seek primary documentation on it. It also appears the same symbol was used by earlier pagan cultures as well.
James,
Pagans and other people always did and continue to claim virtually every Christian symbol is actually pagan. There are many sects of Christianity today who claim other sects' Christian Symbols are Pagan or signs of the Devil or other things, as well. Perhaps the ancient Church deliberately "Christianized" some symbols as they did by celebrating the Birth of Christ on 25 December, which was the last day of Saturnalia in Ancient Roman Times. Many early American Protestant faiths did nothing to celebrate Christmas, though some religiously celebrated Easter. No wonder we have so many sects of the Christian Church.
In our Presbyterian Church for Adult Sunday School, we had a GREAT discussion on other Christian religions and of course Presbyterianism over a period of many weeks. We had prior Catholics, Jews, Methodists, etc., etc. etc. including a former Southern Baptist Minister. The interesting thing was most of us had been well schooled in our earlier Christian Sects, so many beliefs of the other sects could be put forward.
I will never forget when our Pastor was going over Presbyterianism and he stopped, sighed, wiped his brow and said, "OK, HERE is what normally gets us in trouble with other Christian Sects." Of course we ALL perked up to hear that. Then he said, "I want to remind you that Presbyterianism does NOT demand you believe any part of our rules and practices that you find fault with from Biblical Study or Enlightenment." Then he stopped for another pause and said, "What we get into trouble about is that the Presbyterian Church teaches there will only be a finite number of people who will get into heaven." LONG PAUSE FOLLOWED.
OK, I'm the "Dumb Marine," so I spoke up first and said, "You said a finite number but are you saying there is a DEFINITE number?" He looked at me quizzically and replied, "No, there is no definite number, only that it is finite." I replied, "OK, I have no problem with that as a Million, Trilion, Billion, Googols are incomprehensible to me but is a finite number. Further, a finite number can be more people who have ever or ever will live on Earth, BUT that is still a finite number. When Jesus was asked how we get into Heaven, He said, "I am the Way.... So the finite number is up to mankind ourselves, Correct?" The Pastor replied, "I've been a Presbyterian Pastor for over 40 years and never heard it expressed quite that way, but yes, that is correct." He looked around all of we "students" were beaming. That's when he said, "Wow, never got through that point THAT easy before." Then we all laughed and shortly went on with our studies.
Gus
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This morning I reached out to a professor of American Decorative Arts who works with the Winterthur Museum
and asked him to share the pictures of the inlays on the rifles and the fraktur picture that Gus shared with
us, with his colleagues. I inquired whether the design was symbolic. I will share their response when it comes.
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Religion has been defined as man seeking God. That word appears three times in the KJV of the Bible.
It is defined in the short book of James in the New Testament in the first chapter.No more is said or needs to be said.Symbols,Incantations and Hocus Pokus are not needed or mentioned."Religion"has been a scourge to humanity and is the cause of strife and brutal wars and a lot of other problems like broken families.
Jesus Christ paid the price for all who will trust Him.Anything added to that is an insult to the work of Christ when he said,"It is finished".The "IT" is the work of salvation.
Bob Roller
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Jesus Christ paid the price for all who will trust Him.Anything added to that is an insult to the work of Christ when he said,"It is finished".The "IT" is the work of salvation.
Well said Bob.
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This is a little off subject, but connected. And, I'm sure many of you understand that I have to mention it while I can remember it. The reference to the number, and form, of the number 8 got my curiosity going. Could the significance of the number 8 be in some way the reason for the octagon form of the barrels on muzzleloading guns? Somehow making them the righteous hand of God?
I also must mention Melchoir Fortney the Lancaster gunsmith, that was murdered for not following the precepts of the church, and living in sin. Might not some gun building backsliders have invented their own legends to explain stylized inlays that previously were of religious heritage?
Hungry Horse
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Ok guys, this has been a long and fairly interesting discussion on Germanic symbol's and has wandered into more religious discussion than is acceptable for this board. If you wish to continue the religious discussions you can do it with PM's or via email but not here.
I am locking this topic.
Dennis