AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Kermit on February 20, 2014, 07:12:47 AM
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I know they vary across the country, but I'm particularly curious as to how Californians deal with what I understand is a 1lb (ONE pound) limit on possession and storage of Holy Black. Are there permits? Do you just ignore it and hope?
Serious question. Any serious replies?
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Here in WA, its a case of what the eye don't see the heart don't grieve !! All the same you do want to be a bit thoughtful about how much you might keep about the place and what and where you store it. I live on a small rural property, no neighbours near enough if something untoward happened, and keep it in a root cellar.
Cheers
\heelerau
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Kermit, I did some investigating a year or so ago and even called around, and this one pound limit is said to be not for sporting/shooting powder. I never got a clear response about it though--- just like most governmental agencies, no one really knows and you get different answers depending upon who you call. So I have and use what I have and use. I usually have a couple three pounds on hand at any one time. I think you could go to 5-10 pounds and not have any issues. I keep it in an loose lidded igloo ice chest in my garage near the door.
K
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Thanks, Ken. I'll keep asking around too.
All my powder, holy black and unholy white, are in big steel ammo can, painted red and right inside my garage door too. The lid is never locked down. I figure if nastiness happened, much of the force would be directed up. I haven't tested my theory.
;D
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For any Canuck's stopping in on this thread our limits depend on "where" you store it.
If you store it in a dwelling, provided it's in a "suitable receptacle" defined as a substantial box or container, kept away from flammable material, with a tightly fitting lid secured by a lock, that can be easily removed in case of a fire, you can keep a total of 10 kg (22 lbs) of black or smokeless powder (combined).
If you construct a detached building or bin (made of a suitable fireproof material - ie. stone, brick, concrete etc) you are allowed to store up to 75 kg (165 lbs) of black or smokeless (combined)
(The Explosives Act, R.S.C., c. E-17, section 136)
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Oh kermit... please test your theory - inquiring minds want to know.
:) 8)
dp
I store mine in an old 50 caliber ammo box also, lid not locked. It is in my shop but I don't believe anything could really happen to it except the shop catching on fire and there is not a heck of a lot that would combust for very long so I am hope'n it will not get that hot even.
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So California is really starting to scare me. The Pacific Primitive Rendezvous is in the bear state this year. I've also been told only one pound of black powder in your possession and I heard no lead. Does anyone know the real facts? I'm nearly afraid to even travel in that great state let alone compete in a black powder event. Bob
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In many instances, it is the state fire marshall who determines how and how much powder that an individual can store and possess and it is written into the fire codes. Usually more restrictive than state and federal laws, especially in heavily populated areas. If a fire occurs, it is the firemen who must deal with the consequences.
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Oh kermit... please test your theory - inquiring minds want to know.
Let's see--50cal can, 10-20lbs BP, ignition system, large open space... Any volunteers?
Bob, I'd contact the PPR organizers. Seems they ought to have done their homework!
BTW, my powder is in one of these, with casters added.
http://www.armysurplusworld.com/product.asp?ProductID=922
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Bob;
That no lead law doesn't go into affect until 2018, I think. And then only pertains to hunting, not target shooting. The powder limit used to be fifty pounds, if kept in a mobile magazine as previously mentioned. These magazines can be purchased from several suppliers. Most are easily made from a good sealed double locked ( required) steel job sight tool box with steel casters added for mobility, and a spark proof liner, for a better fire rating.
Hungry Horse
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I'd be curious to know what the limit is here WA state...at one time I may have been over limit although I doubt very much if I am today. Still, knowing what the legal limits are would be helpful if anybody knows - I hate to think of asking the authorities...
Off the subject a little here but does anybody have an opinion about this KIK powder? Saw some recently in an article and appears that Powder, Inc sells it at a lower price than Goex.
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you are close Kermit -the box is supposed to have a complete hard foam interior supposedly to prevent sparks from the metal container. in the peoples republic of Illinois the limit is 3 lbs of black for a individual.25 for a club in above approved container under state permit more but must have a under ground storage bunker.
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Here's why Black Powder doesn't "explode" in a house fire;
quoted from the Mad Monk on this forum,,
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"ANY source of heat may ignite black powder. Sparks produce heat, yes. But any source of heat can result in ignition. But! If you heat the powder slowly it will not really ignite. Smolder yes. In order to ignite black powder and get the results you see if you ignite a pile or string on the ground the heat must be intense and fast. Heated slowly the first thing that happens is that the sulfur turns to a vapor up close to the boiling point of water temperature. This would in itself blow the top off a tin powder can. Has happened numerous times around here. While the sulfur vapors themselves are flammable they don't always ignite. The contents of the can then simply burns rapidly but does not really blow up".
This was posted by on an earlier discussion.
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I'd be curious to know what the limit is here WA state...at one time I may have been over limit although I doubt very much if I am today. Still, knowing what the legal limits are would be helpful if anybody knows - I hate to think of asking the authorities...
A year or so ago the WA State Muzzleloaders Association was lobbying the legislature to get BP storage amounts increased. I think the bill failed. I just did a search and came up with a pretty detailed answer that _seems_ accurate. I checked the transportation requirement in Washington State's WACs and it matched with the requirement below. I am confident the others are current as well.
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BLACK POWDER
WAC 296-52-71075 Shipping containers. Black powder, used in muzzleloading firearms must be packed,
stored, and transported in U.S. DOT approved shipping containers.
WAC 296-52-71080 Storage.
(1) Private residence. No more than 5 pounds of black powder is permitted. No restrictions apply.
(2) Private car. No more than 5 pounds of black powder is permitted. No restrictions apply.
RCW 70.74.340
Small arms ammunition, primers and propellants — Transportation, storage and display requirements.
Black powder as used in muzzle loading firearms may be transported in a private vehicle or stored without restriction in private residences in quantities not to exceed five pounds.
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FACTS: The 2008 California lead ban is for hunting only-- and it also, at the moment, is limited to the historical condor range in southern and central California ending about 50 miles north of Fresno, and limited to big game hunting and coyotes etc… In 2018 a NEW law will go into effect and then there will be a State-wide ban on HUNTING with lead. so far, there is NO law restricting the use of lead in open-air target shooting-- unless the specific range restricts it.
To clarify, Northern CA is NOT within the historical condor range so the PPR will be totally fine even if the current ban WAS for target usage. No need to panic. PPR should be a fine event. The biggest concern at the moment for the event is the catastrophic state-wide drought that currently has California by the short hairs.
There could very well be campfire restrictions this Spring and Summer throughout CA. Be careful with your fires and your sparks!!
By the way, there IS a lead alternative for hunting with slow-twist patched roundball guns. visit www.tomboboutdoors.com. I have been using it since 2009 or so.
regards, Ken
(California born, and I still live and play here for some insane reason ;D)
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That's o.k. I'll pass on the $1.00 a round .50 cal. round balls ::) how do you get them out if you dry ball if you don't have a patent breech, I've been told they are to hard to drill a ball puller into.
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CO2 ball-pusher-outer. ;D
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Sometimes they don't work on a flintlock. I had a dry ball at a woods walk and the folks that ran it tried a CO2 pusher-outer and it didn't work. I finally found my ball puller, (it was hiding in the corner) and got it out.
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well I'd pass too if I could… ;)
You are right these ITX roundballs are harder and you cannot use a ball screw on em. The trick is to not dry ball… ;D I am very careful when I load em. I'd say if you got them stuck, you might have to unbreach the barrel and push them out with a rod. I do not own a Co2 discharger-- it might work but depends on how stuck it is.
Since they are for hunting, how many do you need for a season after you have them dialed in? I found that they shot (hunting accuracy) fine with the same charge as my lead roundball load. I maybe use 5-10 per season--I discharge my load after every hunting session. $10 bucks is what? a movie ticket now days?
They work. I have found no other option out there---yet. But they will come along if the ban starts spreading east. I hope someone will invent a softer option that will work even better in our traditional guns, but until that happens...
K
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I watched a fellow use one to clear a ball from a flinter. He poured some sort of moose milk down the bore and let it sit a couple of minutes before setting off the CO2. He said it was to get the patch good and slippery. It worked that time.
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Here in Utah Black Powder is not available, the state made the license to sell it so expensive nobody sells it any more.
I go to Wyoming every other week and buy a can.
About every time I go out I load at least one dry ball, on my Hawken, so all I have to do is unscrew a nipple and use the funnel I stole from the doctors office (The kind he sticks in your ear),,,and put a few grns down the hole, a cap and If you shoot it straight up you can catch the ball.
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Washington State law on black powder are nuts,You are allowed 5 lbs in your residence but you can put 50lbs in the trunk of an auto lock it and park it on your driveway.State law only applies to dwellings Federal law kicks in when it comes to vehicles.
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Here in Utah Black Powder is not available, the state made the license to sell it so expensive nobody sells it any more.
I go to Wyoming every other week and buy a can.
About every time I go out I load at least one dry ball, on my Hawken, so all I have to do is unscrew a nipple and use the funnel I stole from the doctors office (The kind he sticks in your ear),,,and put a few grns down the hole, a cap and If you shoot it straight up you can catch the ball.
You're kidding....right?!
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About every time I go out I load at least one dry ball, on my Hawken...
You gotta work on that problem, man!
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maybe he should switch to a breech loading gun of some sort? ….But I do recall dry balling a couple times in my sordid past.
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For any Canuck's stopping in on this thread our limits depend on "where" you store it.
If you store it in a dwelling, provided it's in a "suitable receptacle" defined as a substantial box or container, kept away from flammable material, with a tightly fitting lid secured by a lock, that can be easily removed in case of a fire, you can keep a total of 10 kg (22 lbs) of black or smokeless powder (combined).
If you construct a detached building or bin (made of a suitable fireproof material - ie. stone, brick, concrete etc) you are allowed to store up to 75 kg (165 lbs) of black or smokeless (combined)
(The Explosives Act, R.S.C., c. E-17, section 136)
This is all changing! For the better!
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A few years ago (pre 9/11) I was heading to New Brunswick on a bear hunt so I called the RCMP to find out about laws and regulations concerning my flint smooth bore and powder going across the border.
Gun- no problem fill out the paperwork, Powder- up to 35 lbs. (for personal sporting use) I imagine that has changed but it was a great surprise at the time.
I only brought 2 cans.
If your going across borders I recommend removing your butplate and writing your contact info. Without serial numbers, mfgs. stamps, caliber markings etc. the paperwork can lead to questions of proof of ownership.
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When my shop/house burned I had 40 lbs of powder in 1lb cans in a powder magazine in the garage.
When I got to the house I went to warn the firemen but a neighbor had told them I had a "mess of powder"
They tried to keep that part of the house cool and wet but it went anyhow. Nobody was hurt but it sure got everyone's attention.
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Hi. You might find this interesting reading. A different perspective.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrhtm/rr991.htm
Here in the UK there are regulations on the storage of BP for licensed shooters. The total quantity is limited and a special wooden container design must be used for storage. The referenced doc shows a typical example. There must be a space over the container of about 20/30% of the height of the partition. The whole purpose is solely to ensure that in the event of fire there is time for occupants to safely exit the building. Extensive trials were initially carried out at the Health and Safety Executive's laboratories and still continue. Storage may be anywhere that is sensibly secure from unauthorised access. Not to be near any exit and there is no expectation of removal of the box in the event of fire - the sole priority is to get occupants out of the property.
The police authorities require a padlock on the hasp to deter casual unauthorised access (children, visitors, malcontents, etc).
The possession of Pyrodex is unlicensed.
Not a handicap to us shooters, except, of course, the foreseen bitch about cost. I made my own for very little. A commercially made one is about $90 or so.
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Whew! for a minute there I thought you were going to let the cat out of the bag and tell them how much we are permitted. Could be unsettling for some... ;D
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No Dave, would never do that!
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Thanks, Hammer. That IS interesting. :o
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Why are folks who don't know anything about black powder allowed to make any rules about its use and storage? >:(
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Because ;D Just my Mom used to tell me !!
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Wow! I forgot. That one works every time. Ya can't argue with mom.
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Why are folks who don't know anything about black powder allowed to make any rules about its use and storage? >:(
[/quote
cause thats the "american way" nowadays. mark]
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About every time I go out I load at least one dry ball, on my Hawken...
You gotta work on that problem, man!
I figured out a way to help my issue, I leave the Phone in the car, Last time I never loaded one dry ball.
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Here in Utah Black Powder is not available, the state made the license to sell it so expensive nobody sells it any more.
I go to Wyoming every other week and buy a can.
About every time I go out I load at least one dry ball, on my Hawken, so all I have to do is unscrew a nipple and use the funnel I stole from the doctors office (The kind he sticks in your ear),,,and put a few grns down the hole, a cap and If you shoot it straight up you can catch the ball.
You're kidding....right?!
Well, I should have said, "If you could point it straight up you might catch the ball.
I remember one time this crazy guy I was with loaded a dry ball, I told him to funnel some powder down the touch hole, he shot, ball hits a rock and come right back and hit him, he caught it, that was about all he could hit.
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I jump into this thread late.
I have my black powder in the original cans, all in a polymer ammo container, in my locked shed.
I hang a full powder horn and a small primer horn in the same shed.
Do you folks remove the powder from your horns during storage? It's about 2 weeks time of storage between trips to the shooting range.
Thanks,
Ron
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If it's that short a period and the storage environment is relatively dry and stable, I wouldn't worry. I DO empty horns that see infrequent use. No good reasons for my practice, just what I learned from a mentor about 40 years ago.
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I would not store a horn in the shed, but for a totally different reason. I do not want bugs like carpet beetles and larvae eating holes in my horn! I would empty the powder back into the correct container, and then bring the horn inside. It would also protect the strap. Just my 2 cents. Best wishes, Marc
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Thank you for that advice, Kermit.
And Marcruger, I checked to see if we have carpet beetles in Colorado. We certainly do. The black carpet beetle usually causes low level infestations, but can multiply. I haven't seen any in my 29 years here, but it doesn't mean that they aren't around. So, I have to give this some thought.
Ron
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I never saw any beetles around here either, but when I hung a horn on a nail in the garage it didn't take long for some critter to start eating at it. Now I hang them in my shop over an open box of mothballs.
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Is there any need for concern storing powder in a shed that get well over 120 degrees in the summer? I currently have it stored in original containers, the containers in one of those vacuum storage bags to keep in dry.
Dave
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For you guys in Michigan, I just did some searching for storage laws in MI. About all I could find was:
EXPLOSIVES ACT OF 1970
Act 202 of 1970
29.53 Explosives; Storage
Sect. 13
All explosives, ......shall be stored in a locked building or out building which shall be rigidly fixed to it's base or foundation.
Nothing said about quantity or magazines or licensing, etc.
If you know of more information I would like to here from you.