AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: James Wilson Everett on March 02, 2014, 01:08:46 AM
-
Guys,
Here is a neat wood working gouge made from an old file. Actually, the forging skill of the smith who made this one was great, certainly better than me. It is almost a certainty that worn out 18th c period files were repurposed as tools, springs, knives, lock parts. Here is a nice one. On calm nights under a full moon I am sure that I can hear it whisper "I was made by Jacob Dickert."
Jim
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%202_zpswpv7tfvc.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%202_zpswpv7tfvc.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%201_zpssizjrjoh.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%201_zpssizjrjoh.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%203_zpsvyixehez.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%203_zpsvyixehez.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%204_zpswfldctzn.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%204_zpswfldctzn.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%205_zpsemkcj70h.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/Gouge%205_zpsemkcj70h.jpg.html)
-
Nice! I don't have any old files in my shop that haven't been made into something or plan on being made into something. Great steel, if you don't buy the cheap ones.
-
My favorite hunting knife was a file in it's first life.
-
Remember that we had a few great wars since the cilil one, where we had scrap drives to support these wars, that took a lot of our rare artifacts for the effort.
Bill
PS cool find.
-
Remember that we had a few great wars since the cilil one, where we had scrap drives to support these wars, that took a lot of our rare artifacts for the effort.
Bill
PS cool find.
Good point, Bill, and of course a good number of 18th century arifacts were lost in the 19th century for "re-purposing" or recycling then.
James,
Good for you for saving this artifact!
Gus
-
I scrounge yard sales, etc. for old files to repurpose. Usually pick up a couple at Dixon's each year. Reuse has a long history.
-
A blacksmith friend has a friend who works in a cabinet shop. They use 10" "plasticut" files to trim laminate counters etc..,. They throw them away when they get clogged with plastic, and he brings these throw aways to my friend and he graciously shares them with me. He said he has tried to explain to him that the files aren't worn out and could be cleaned but they don't seem to care. I use them till they get worn and then forge them into a new career.
-
A blacksmith friend has a friend who works in a cabinet shop. They use 10" "plasticut" files to trim laminate counters etc..,. They throw them away when they get clogged with plastic, and he brings these throw aways to my friend and he graciously shares them with me. He said he has tried to explain to him that the files aren't worn out and could be cleaned but they don't seem to care. I use them till they get worn and then forge them into a new career.
I have access to "plasticut" files. Have never tried them on wood... Any idea how they would work?
-
They work ok on wood. They work ok on brass too, especially when they are free. They also make good knives.
-
Guys,
Here are a couple more tools that were made from old files. A tool collector could have fun just looking for these. I still have never been able to get a unmodified period file, still searching.
These are two large metal drill bits, you can see in the close-up photos the remaining marks of the original file teeth.
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/File%20Bit%201%20A_zpsckwbkrns.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/File%20Bit%201%20A_zpsckwbkrns.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/File%20Bit%201%20C_zpsrhahpk3q.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/File%20Bit%201%20C_zpsrhahpk3q.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/File%20Bit%202%20B_zps9wiuafva.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/File%20Bit%202%20B_zps9wiuafva.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/File%20Bit%202%20C_zpsdcqsfvpw.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/File%20Bit%202%20C_zpsdcqsfvpw.jpg.html)
Jim
-
My favorite drawknife is made from an old file. It will take and hold a razor edge. You have to look close but you can see remnants of the file teeth.
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff510/DavidPflint/IMG_2553_zpsmc7swq3j.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/DavidPflint/media/IMG_2553_zpsmc7swq3j.jpg.html)
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff510/DavidPflint/IMG_2554_zpset00l4y7.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/DavidPflint/media/IMG_2554_zpset00l4y7.jpg.html)
-
My son forged a fine knife for me from an old rusty file in exchange for 20 I had sent him to play with. The old fellow who had my shop before me had kept all of his worn out files and although he was a good blacksmith hadn't yet repurposed those I sent by the time he passed on. I do find tools the old fellow made from files now and then.
dave
-
About every tool I have to make a long rifle was made from a file. Bought my dear friends blacksmiths shop some 30 years ago after he passed away. 500 lb. anvil and all the works. With the shop came lots of worn out files, big. little, round, three square etc. Have used them to make cold chisels. wood chisels, drift punches and drills, reamers, screw plate and taps for set triggers and locks. Never found a old period file in yard sales or flee markets. All these files were black diamond, with a few assorted others.
-
Files marked only "Black Diamond' were made before 1975. One can see that the tangs were forged, rather than stamping them out. These older files were made of much higher carbon steel than is commonly available today. They ranged from 1.2 to 1.4 carbon. Most files are just under 1% carbon. It is the very high carbon that gives extreme wear resistance (edge holding).
Your P.I.T.A. metallurgist
-
Oddly, I read a post a few years back on a knife forum, and the poster sent different files to a lab to be analyzed. A cheap Chinese file tested at 1.3 carbon, Higher than any other in the group. Though, that doesn't mean all Chinese files are that way.
-
Oddly, I read a post a few years back on a knife forum, and the poster sent different files to a lab to be analyzed. A cheap Chinese file tested at 1.3 carbon, Higher than any other in the group. Though, that doesn't mean all Chinese files are that way.
NONE of the newer files last as long as they should. I have old American made ones that still work well.
I bought a new made in China square file this week and threw it away yesterday.
What kind of a job does Boggs Tools do on sharpening files and end mills?
I'm fed up seeing old and honored American names on 3rd rate tools.
Bob Roller
-
I agree Bob. I've never used Boggs, but they have a great rep. Reportedly, they admit the re-sharpened teeth will not last as long as when the file was new, but that would be relative to the amount of use. The draw back I see is the shipping charges today, and you would be paying to and from. I haven't added that up, but it would be a consideration to be weighed.
-
If its the same or a few dollars more to ship and sharpen good quality files than buying chinese or other foreign $#@* with usa names than its well worth it! Buying a swiss grobet is worth it!
-
I agree, I would buy Swiss
Nicholson files were reduced in quality by Our Gov't a coupla decades back. Used to be Nicholson coated their freshly cut files with "cyanide loaf". This was a mix of potassium ferrocyanide (only mildly poisonous to handle, in spite of those 'cyanide' sylables), flour and bone black. It gave the files a light casehardening, although they were only heated for a few minutes, 1440F, in a molten lead bath. This mixture was used to harden the surface of AISI 1035 (a lower carbon steel) used for farrier's rasps.
Our Gov't decided that Nicholson may no longer use K4Fe(CN)6 in their cyanide loaf. Too poisonous. Then they decided we could no longer use Kasinet, which contained the same stuff.
I looked at the ingredients on sea salt from a popular Cincinnati-based grocery store. To prevent caking, they added just a little potassium ferrocyanide.
Personally while I am metallurgically oriented, I would say that how the teeth are cut has a $#*! of a lot to do with file performance. A year or two back I looked at two sorta identical Nicholson files at Woodcraft Supply. The pricey one was made in USA, I presume Alabama. The far more economical choice came from somewhere in South America. Nosey guy, I looked closely at the teeth, saw how they were cut & opted to spend quite a few $$$ more for the Alabama file.
Now I wouldn't even bother going to a US store, just buy Swiss on-line.
-
NONE of the newer files last as long as they should. I have old American made ones that still work well.
I bought a new made in China square file this week and threw it away yesterday.
What kind of a job does Boggs Tools do on sharpening files and end mills?
I'm fed up seeing old and honored American names on 3rd rate tools.
Bob Roller
Bob I have used Bogg Tool and they do a great job on files and end mills. They come back sharp and I recommend them highly.
Fred
-
I use old square files to make square reamers for barrels. Like reaming shotgun barrels.
I also sharpen my own files. I put them in a flat glass or plastic dish and soak them in nitric acid 7% to 10% for about 10 or 15 minutes depending on how bad they are. They need to be washed first. Then I wash them in very hot water and let them dry. Then I bead blast them with very fine glass beads. Then spray them with WD40. They will cut like a new Nicolson.
Chinese files are not worth even fooling with. Some of them are not even tool steel but are only case hardened.
Kelly-- I am interested in knowing where you got your info on file manufacturing in the USA.
I don't see why they didn't just use 01 instead of using a lower carbon and then case hardening it. Could be they used the cake to prevent oxidizing.
-
jerrywh - separate email with pdf of Old Files and New Knives
These files were already of high carbon steel. "Cyanide loaf" was to prevent any loss of carbon from those very fine tooth edges, in files. This might occur while the file was being heated 1440F for hardening. Heating was in a lead, later Bismuth, bath to protect the metal from oxidation and decarburization. But that protection is not perfect, and a cutting edge is exceedingly fine.
A farrier's rasp needed to be a lower carbon, AISI then case hardened. Now & again it is necessary for the farrier to get the horse's attention. This he may do by rapping Dobbin on the foot. A high carbon file, fully hard all the way through, would break. Too brittle.
The steel used in the USA, recent decades, was AISI 1095, quenched in maybe 10% salt solution.
No one in USA would use O1, simply cost more & unlikely to work better.
I worked for a supplier of heat resisting alloys used for heat treat fixtures. Technical guy. I called on Nicholson in Philadelphia about 100 years ago, then in Cullman Alabama more recently.
-
Guys,
Here is another reason we don't find period files. This is another period gouge made from an old file. It is still rather sharp and will cut a 3/8 inch groove. So, I am absolutely certain that this is the one and only ramrod groove gouge used by Jacob Dickert!
Jim
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Gouge/Gouge%20A1_zpsbyjewryi.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/Gouge/Gouge%20A1_zpsbyjewryi.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Gouge/Gouge%20A2_zps9wmrwuwj.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/Gouge/Gouge%20A2_zps9wmrwuwj.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Gouge/Gouge%20A3_zpsb7donpsa.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/Gouge/Gouge%20A3_zpsb7donpsa.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Gouge/Gouge%20A4_zpsvpq3be9b.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/Gouge/Gouge%20A4_zpsvpq3be9b.jpg.html)
-
When I am prepping files for reincarnation, I always make a point of grinding every trace of the teeth off, so they don't act as stress risers or corrosion/dirt traps.
Not everyone does, it seems. Doesn't seem to have been an issue with these tools.
-
FDR got an Address/web site for Bogg Tools.Need many USA files sharpened.
-
J Henry
(http://image.ibb.co/eQUXow/Screen_Hunter_934_Sep_28_11_29.jpg) (http://imgbb.com/)
Another very positive vote for Boggs. Good folks!
J.B.
-
Guys,
Another tool made from an old file. This time a really nice cold chisel made from a coarse round file. Gives you a good grip as you use the tool. The only time I use a tool such as this is to raise the edges of the slots in a barrel for dovetailed sights & loops.
Jim
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/SANY1093_zpssj0corrz.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/SANY1093_zpssj0corrz.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/File%20Tools/SANY1092_zps7sewsxcs.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Tools/File%20Tools/SANY1092_zps7sewsxcs.jpg.html)
-
J Henry
(http://image.ibb.co/eQUXow/Screen_Hunter_934_Sep_28_11_29.jpg) (http://imgbb.com/)
Another very positive vote for Boggs. Good folks!
J.B.
I also use Boggs Tools for my files & end mills and they do a great job. They mark to files tang with red paint that they feel are not sharp after their treatment but even these work OK for a while. The other end mills and files that they feel are acceptable are first rate. I pack and ship in a flat rate USPS box and the cost is not bad at all. A side note: I have some lathe files from India that are sharp and have lasted a long time so far and I use them a LOT ;).
-
The major reason we can't find good period files is a lack of demand.
The vast majority of the country never even thinks of tools and files
are somewhere below zero.Restoring relic files is about our only option
unless we luck into a long in business hardware store that still has an
unsold inventory of them.Here in Huntington WV we have ONE REAL
hardware store left and it has very few files and no demand for what
they do have.The days of an industrial country that would use these
tools are long over and the Mom&Pop hardware store is now a relic
as well.
Bob Roller
-
https://boggstool.com/
(https://i.ibb.co/NtL3c8B/Screen-Hunter-1362-Jun-26-20-52.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Really good folks!
J.B.
-
great post here, old files high carbon steel made into useful gun making tools, the handles and tangs of these is some think about. but the only thing that matters is where the tip of the tool meet the work, read my post above.
-
I think it's cool when people recycle old files and turn them into something beautiful. Such as a well made knife.
Will
-
My grandfather was trained in Austria as a violin maker. Part of his apprenticeship was to make the tools of the trade. One of my prized possessions is a small gouge made from a piece of an old file. It was from his first tool set.
Hungry Horse