AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: dmb1953 on March 11, 2014, 03:13:19 PM
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I have just recently acquired a Joseph Long rifle in original flintlock and in extremely fine condition. I could send along photos, but do not know how. Don Blyth blyth53@sympatico.ca
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Would love to see pictures. Do you want to sell it?...........Don
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dmb1953,
If you have trouble posting the pictures, email them to me at jtrrobbins@msn.com and I'll post them for you.
Lot's of guys here would love to see the rifle!
John
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Don.......I cannot receive or send any E-mail, must get this thing purged. You can call me........717-463-4041..........Don
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I was pleased to be the first to see the photos of this really nice Joe Long rifle and
glad to post them up for Don. The best I have seen. Course I aint been around as long
as some of you guys.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FKENTUCKY016_zpsb92db0a8.jpg&hash=393a0e1546a9f07162da430025731e11ec4e7cd5) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/KENTUCKY016_zpsb92db0a8.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FKENTUCKY009_zps6aaf78af.jpg&hash=a14b05971010e391afad9cd80d666a9dada795b7) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/KENTUCKY009_zps6aaf78af.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FKENTUCKY005_zpsfeb2e329.jpg&hash=8b54294c33e320a9e0c44081be1ddddefe69e35d) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/KENTUCKY005_zpsfeb2e329.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FKENTUCKY008_zps964fda1a.jpg&hash=4fabd951701609e95e2cdc70b1c754fba7339990) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/KENTUCKY008_zps964fda1a.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FKENTUCKY003_zps045d870a.jpg&hash=a93cd6337085673fcdd61489f2db62e61982d29e) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/KENTUCKY003_zps045d870a.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FKENTUCKY019_zpsad62023a.jpg&hash=d17957b363aed36a7797140888996e054136c2df) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/KENTUCKY019_zpsad62023a.jpg.html)
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Very nice example of an Upper Susquehanna longrifle. However, I'm not sure why it is attributed to Joe Long? The barrel signature is not totally clear to me from the photo.
Mark
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That's a very nice rifle, and thanks for showing it!
It certainly looks similar to Longs work,,,,,
Here's two pictures of his signature, one with name, and the other with just initials. Both are from rifles I used to own.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi169.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu227%2Farljtr%2FJosephLong031Large_zpsa6ab892a.jpg&hash=c9b07699088a0374fa39d2ec45f8d8820a32454d) (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi169.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu227%2Farljtr%2FJosephLong030Large_zps27b8540f.jpg&hash=aa3e21e4bbd571ceb9917dbd9684ee8bbad3a9b2)
John
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I would support JTR and Loudy in respect to questioning the "Long" attribution., the barrel signature is quite different. Also the cheek carving appears to be of a dofferent hand/style.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the maker of this rifle was one of the Spangle / Spangler gunsmiths from Liverpool, Perry County, PA. Photos of a "Jacob Spangle" rifle can be seen in Dr. Whisker's book entitled "Behold the Longrifle... Again" on p. 166.
Mark
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Love the carving behind the cheek piece.
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Beautiful, no other words.
Buck
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Assuming Spotz is correct I'd be inclined to attribute at least the barrel to Joseph Schaefer based upon the signature. There are differences between Schaefer and Long rifles but also so many similarities. Look in the library under Joe Long and see the rifle I've listed as a misidentified piece now pretty much agreed upon as a Schaefer.
I have some further observations I'm somewhat reluctantly place on the table...
It would appear that the barrel on this fine rifle has been cut at the muzzle. This can usually be verified by a close inspection as a land or groove will normally be found in the twelve o-clock position. Most often a land. Not in itself a huge demerit.
I'm also a bit skeptical of the stock. It's not that the stock isn't gorgeous, it's just that the erosion of the barrel around the flash pan seems somewhat inconsistent with the condition of the wood. Hopefully I'm wrong.
If I'm not wrong, then a top notch restock using original furniture and in the classic (and classy) Upper Susquehanna tradition. Here the underside of the barrel and mountings for the ramrod tubes might tell us much.
Please understand that I'm not attempting to be a critic as this is a stunningly nice rifle. My only reason for pointing out some personal worries is that I would wish to be found wrong. At the same time I'd wish that you encounter no surprises at some point down the road if I'm correct.
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I just took some time to study the pictures, nord I hope your wrong too (not kidding).
Buck
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Buck,
Thank you. I hope it's obvious to all that I intend no harm. I honestly hope that my misgivings are unfounded.
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Nord,
Your welcome, hopefully it was just a heavy handed cleaning.
Buck
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Interesting buttplate,I assume that is the catch button for the patchbox ?
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Interesting buttplate,I assume that is the catch button for the patchbox ?
[/quote]
Standard for that area.
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My opinion favors Nord's... That wood looks too new, no built up linseed oil, no darkness, crisp lines around the lock. I'd call that a restock.
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Would love to see the piece in person. Just too many questions on what you can see in photos
ramrod thimble spacing looks like there should be a few more inches of barrel and anothe thimble. That points to a shortened muzzle end rather than a restock
Other builders in that area used iron pins to hold patch box and inlays in place. This one looks like brass pins on the box side plates.
Poor owner will never post another piece here
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I have finally got the barrel off the Long?? rifle. The groove at the muzzle is at 12 o clock, the rifeling is very light and it has never been cut at the muzzle end. I hope to have posted a photo of the touch hole area soon, it shows no erosion. The erosion on the barrel at the lock area is some heavy rust pitting. The barrel has early in its life has some areas of heavy rust. The barrel is signed at the lock end C or G S ? in very heavy stamping. DMB
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Thank you for the added info. Please bear in mind that we're in no way degrading this rifle by asking questions or throwing possibilities out for consideration. If we don't do it here, then someone else will.
I continue to be of the opinion that this is not a rifle by Joe Long. Again no demerit. There are some details seemingly at odds with what I'd expect from an accomplished maker. (I said seemingly.)
No matter... A fine Upper Susquehanna rifle!
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Wow, just got my computer back yesterday. I did not those pictures until now. A lot of things really jumped out at me about
a Joe Long gun. While I will use the word "never", I have found that one should never use it, but I will. Several things jumped out at me. The sideplate looks like a typical New Berlin side plate, Samuel Baum, etc. Normally a Joe Long gun has
a "football" sideplate, usually have a wear plate on the edge of the cheek piece, very unusual to see a single trigger. I have
never seen one with wedges to hold the barrel in. Normally they have barrel pins that are hidden behind an inlay, with the
underlug shaped like an "L", or a hook. To remove the barrel you would have to remove the tang bolt, lift it up and slide it
to unhook it. I have never seen brass pins holding the patchbox in place, normally would be iron pins. The whole gun looks
too new, I think it was a re-stock. Whoever did it was a good gunbuilder. Funny thing, when I see a Joe Long rifle they seem
to jump out at you, and this could pertain to any of the old guns that you like or have studied a lot. These are just some
ramblings of an old guy..........Don
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Another thought. The barrel looks like it could be 150 years old, however, how did the rest of the gun make it thru those
years without even a scratch? .........Don
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Here is a photo of the barrel with a marking of CS or GS on it that the owner sent me.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1116.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk570%2Fsuzkat11%2FKENTUCKYMORE1001_zps82a7fd93.jpg&hash=e21b4c709cb7972d363bc3fad62ae9cccb932846) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/suzkat11/media/KENTUCKYMORE1001_zps82a7fd93.jpg.html)
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Here's a couple more pictures of the barrel/tang area showing the barrel makers mark and makers signature, sent to me by the owner;
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi169.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu227%2Farljtr%2FJ%2520Brandford%2FKENTUCKYMORE011_zpsffba5117.jpg&hash=79f4758bbb57c9ec8b89637ceb4073a1a874f982)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi169.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu227%2Farljtr%2FJ%2520Brandford%2FKENTUCKYMORE1001_zpsf169ab6a.jpg&hash=1cfc89b4ef0f736503b9551d08505a8deba0e6d7)
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I sure appreciate the input from you guys. It appears that the rifle has been built using the barrel from an earlier rifle. In my collection of Ontario rifles I have several that date in the 1860s that use locks or barrels from circa 1830 guns. The stock and furniture on this rifle have a great age patina and I and others up here feel to be 1825-30 The screws holding the patch-box are iron.. Since being built this rifle has had really no use. I have one rifle that appears to have left Wm,P. Marston's shop around 1855 and went right into the attic where it was found in minty unfired condition, so it can happen. Anyway it seems that the rifle has nothing to do with Long. I still like the rifle, my only American one, tho I may have paid too much for it. Hope someone can come up with who GC on the barrel is. Also I feel that Jonathan Wood came from Penn and hope someone has some info. for me on him. He seems to have been well trained when he came to Upper Canada. Thanks again you guys.Don
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This rifle looks remarkably similar to the George Smith or George Spangle rifle in the Upper Susquehanna virtual reference you have posted in the Library. I know the signature isn't exactly the same but even the stock and carving look similar.
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Bear in mind that a good number of Upper Susquehanna makers were neighbors. Not perhaps next door neighbors but at least acquaintances and maybe friends. In at least some instances it would appear that components were shared and designs were similar to the point where it's now difficult to assign some guns to a particular maker with any degree of certainty.
This rifle? Probably not by Joe Long. Actually I'm fairly certain of this. All the same it wouldn't be unfair to opine a Joe Long influence... Or maybe better said the influence of what we might consider a local fraternity of makers.