AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: JBJ on April 02, 2014, 06:34:08 PM
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I need some help! Years ago, their was an article in Muzzle Blasts re making a spring loaded loading rod designed to improve uniformity in seating the ball on the powder. Clearly it was attempt to help increase uniformity in loading from shot to shot - one more little variable. I am hoping that one of the Forum members recalls the article and perhaps has the old Muzzle Blast where this appeared. Or one of you has a design of your own that you would be willing to share with the Forum. Thanks in advance.
J.B.
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Ignore the article. Shoot more. think less. stop trying to find the magic shooting goop, patch material, powder, cleaning goop, and whatever else seems magical. The best group tightener is practice. Most of the other things you are searching for will "magically" come to you with the extra range time, and experience.
Hungry Horse
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Was it this?
http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no3/articles/mbo43-7.shtml
The Kadooty Rod
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I'll also add that I do agree with Hungry Horse. Practice is the best cure all.
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Ignore the article. Shoot more. think less. stop trying to find the magic shooting goop, patch material, powder, cleaning goop, and whatever else seems magical. The best group tightener is practice. Most of the other things you are searching for will "magically" come to you with the extra range time, and experience.
Hungry Horse
BEST REPLY OF THE YEAR GOES TO.... HUNGRY HORSE!
HOOORAH!
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Apparently it did not take off as they have been out of business for at least 7 years and at $120++ I can't imagine they sold many :o. I am with Hungry Horse. Forget the gimmicks and practice a lot.
Dave
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I need some help! Years ago, their was an article in Muzzle Blasts re making a spring loaded loading rod designed to improve uniformity in seating the ball on the powder. Clearly it was attempt to help increase uniformity in loading from shot to shot - one more little variable. I am hoping that one of the Forum members recalls the article and perhaps has the old Muzzle Blast where this appeared. Or one of you has a design of your own that you would be willing to share with the Forum. Thanks in advance.
J.B.
I agree with the others -- BUT -- if you want to try something, try this -- go buy yourself a small bathroom scale or some other similar type of scale and place your rifles butt on it when you load the rifle - note the scales poundage when you seat the ball firmly - repeat this value for your remaining shots. Now -- mind you this is not something that I advocate I just suggested it as a way for you to get "the feel" for uniformity in your loading process cheaply. When you come up with the right "feel" for the loading pressure for your best accuracy for that rifle then discontinue the use of the scale - just a suggestion :D ;D. Don't be surprised if you get "funny" looks from others ;D ;D
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[/quote]
BEST REPLY OF THE YEAR GOES TO.... HUNGRY HORSE!
HOOORAH!
[/quote]
Absolutely!
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Based on the info in the attached I would say there is a difference though minor. Some consistency is required - just seat to the same feel.
A friend actually got a patent 30+ years ago on a range rod with an integral scale but did nothing commercial with it.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bpcompress/bpcompress.html
TC
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I would advise you to take up chunk gun shooting. I did it for about 10-15 years and learned more about accurate shooting
than I did all of my years before that............Don
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I have been told that a slow powder pour down the barrel and seating the ball just to the impact of ball to powder is the best way to get uniform results. I think its kinda like using a drop tube about 2 or 3 inches shorter than the barrel. Reloaders for BPCR use drop tubes to get enough powder in those cases and I think they do a slow pour too. I'm sure someone here can expound on this further.
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A great deal of even seating of the ball will depend upon how easily your rifle loads - ALL DAY LONG - or at least as long as the string you intend to keep uniform. And that will depend upon either cleaning beteen shots (yuk) or having a patch/lube/ball combo that does the cleaning each time you load. Seat the ball firmly upon the charge using the same pressure each time. I see guys throwing the rod down the barrel until it bounces out by itself. I rarely see them in the winner's circle.
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I agree with Don, if you want to challenge yourself, take up chunk gun shooting. Talk about a different animal. It is very difficult to become good at it (IMHO).
Centershot
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Marking your ramrod (loading rod) once your most accurate charge is established, this will aid in consistency of loading, provided you load the same amount of powder (as close as possible) and with as little variation as possible from shot to shot. If you load to that line on the loading rod each time, you should see a marked improvement. And always be sure your patched ball is against the charge. You don't need to crush the charge - just be against it as stated above by smylee grouch.
I mark my loading rods and ramrod once I establish my most accurate load. I think it helps.
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Using a drop tube to load BPCR ammunition does get more powder to settle in the cartridge easily. I think the theory is the individual grains get to free fall landing individually without bridging. ( Anyone who has loaded shot shells on a single stage reloader probably has had the powder bridge in the drop tube a few times.) This definitely makes a more compact load than just dumping the powder directly into the shell. However, I can see no difference between the drop tube and the barrel of the muzzle loader with respect to free falling the powder. Just pour the powder at a reasonably uniform rate versus dumping the charge in one lump. From seeing how much difference the tube makes in settling the charge in a BP cartridge case I think the pour versus the dump probably does the same thing in muzzle loaders. I get about a 3/16" more powder in a .45-110 Sharps cartridge with the tube and pour. Haven't measured it in my muzzleloader.
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Thanks to all of you for your thoughts! Being an unabashed tinker, it was something that crossed my mind. For 65 years I have relied on a sense of feel and a mark on my ramrods when seating a ball and totally appreciate those comments. A random thought about range rods triggered (no pun intended) memories about the spring loaded range rod. Again, many thanks to all of you. You're Great!
J.B.
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After all these years, when seating the ball, I feel a certain "crunch" of the powder compressing. With practice you can pretty much have the same "crunch" every time. There are so many other factors in black powder shooting that can have more effect on accuracy. I worry more about the light and how it affects the site picture. I can't control clouds and sun.
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After all these years, when seating the ball, I feel a certain "crunch" of the powder compressing. With practice you can pretty much have the same "crunch" every time. There are so many other factors in black powder shooting that can have more effect on accuracy. I worry more about the light and how it affects the site picture. I can't control clouds and sun.
X2
However you load, do it the same each time - practice will help you control the "other" things that effect accuracy. Consistency, though art a JEWEL.
This, of course is taking for fact, that you are loading a 'decent' ball and patch combination. Without that to start with, the rest if meaningless.
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I use a 'compactor' to seat the wad over the powder (before hand seating the bullet) when loading either of my long range muzzleloaders. It gives me a consistent 40 pounds compression of the powder. I do something similar when loading BP cartridges for consistency. I would seem that zero pressure is also consistent and the short ranges which roundball is used would benefit little from more hardware. Consistency if the operative word here. JMHO
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Steve Chapman and I did a test of compression on accuracy. We used a collar on a bench rod to make every load the same . then we adjusted the collar to add a 1/16" compression and did the test over, repeating with 1/8", and 3/16".
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/load-compression-and-accuracy.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/load-compression-and-accuracy.php)
This link is to the article on the old site. A revamped version in in the works.
Regards,
Pletch
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there is no better way to get to know where the ball seats than marking the ram rod , for both hunting load and target loads. go and shoot a lot burning powder . after lots of that you wont' question if the ball is properly seated.
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Thanks, Pletch. That was the sort of thing wandering around in my mind when I opened this post. Your solution was elegant in its simplicity.
J.B.
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I mark my rod to indicate when the ball is seated. But in the course of a day's shooting, since I never clean the barrel from start to finish, I find the mark making its way a little further from the muzzle as the day progresses, even with the same seating pressure. This is apparent mostly in small bored rifles, like my .40's. Though the patch cleans the bore efficiently so that each round gets the same bore condition as the last, the area where the powder rests below the ball continues to get fowling build up throughout the shooting session. As the fowling in this 'chamber' area increases, it leaves less room for the powder, so the powder column rises, as much as 1/4" over the course of the day. I don't mind this phenomenon, or doubt my seating pressure, but this has come with many years of enjoying this great sport.
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ditto
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I mark my rod to indicate when the ball is seated. But in the course of a day's shooting, since I never clean the barrel from start to finish, I find the mark making its way a little further from the muzzle as the day progresses, even with the same seating pressure. This is apparent mostly in small bored rifles, like my .40's. Though the patch cleans the bore efficiently so that each round gets the same bore condition as the last, the area where the powder rests below the ball continues to get fowling build up throughout the shooting session. As the fowling in this 'chamber' area increases, it leaves less room for the powder, so the powder column rises, as much as 1/4" over the course of the day. I don't mind this phenomenon, or doubt my seating pressure, but this has come with many years of enjoying this great sport.
Taylor,
1/4" of build-up must be coming close to the flash hole. Do you ever have any problem with hang fires?
Mole Eyes
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No I do not. I suspect that the coating on the 'chamber' simply reduces the volume that is available to the new powder while the flash channel remains clear. What will interfere with ignition is trying to clean that area with either a wet mop or a scraper. That'll block the flash hole.
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No I do not. I suspect that the coating on the 'chamber' simply reduces the volume that is available to the new powder while the flash channel remains clear. What will interfere with ignition is trying to clean that area with either a wet mop or a scraper. That'll block the flash hole.
That's also been my experience because when I clean the rifle at the end of the day I get very little crud on the breech scraper. Consequently, I don't think there could have been much build-up on the breech face in the first place.
Mole Eyes
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Some of the fellows on this site have noted some cap-locks having ignition trouble in events where the competitors wipe every shot as in chunk shooting. This fouling trouble seems to be from pushing the fouling down into the hole in the breech, eventually plugging the flash channel itself. With the side ignition of the flinter, if pricked, that lock would not be prone to plugging as much.
Seems to me, this is one reason why Dan built his 18 pound plank rifle as a flinter - less likely to foul the ignition with a flint gun, than a cap gun.
I don't use a breech scraper, nor does Taylor as we remove the barrels for cleaning, immersing the breech in a vessel of water and pump/flush out the fouling. My ML's are much quicker to clean than my modern guns.
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I have watched shooters with various old and new long range muzzle loaders at the 500 yard range at Friendship wipe the barrels and then explode a cap after every shot.
That makes fifty shots per box of caps and fifty to
blow the fouling out of the flash channel.
Bob Roller
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There's a little bit of data here :
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bpcompress/bpcompress.html
Since it addresses only one load for one gun, one conclusion is that similar experiments in your gun would be called for.
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With respect to "whanging" the rammer down the barrel, there is a reasonable variation.
My rifle has a solid brass ramrod, made by the previous owner to steady the muzzle. It is a weighty item. I use gravity to seat the ball, as it tends to stay the same over time and place (understatement alert). After getting the ball just touching the powder I lift the ramrod a uniform distance out of the barrel and let it drop on the ball. As long as I get the distance right I get the same force on the ball.
That said, Hungry Horse wins the prize. Shoot more and pay attention while you do. People get caught up in making adjustments when it is consistency and repetition that matter.