AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Archie Otto on April 21, 2014, 05:07:14 AM
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With buckhorn or similar fixed dovetailed sights what process do you use to develop a load and sight in a rifle.
Do you ever move the sight after the initial sight in?
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For me, the first step is to determine what the sight picture should be. I make a sketch of the image I want. For some buckhorn sights, you could put the blade in the middle of the "horns," or in the small notch usually found at the bottom of the sight. For others, maybe just put the front blade in the notch even with the top.
If the front blade is too thick and over fills the slot, either increase the slot width or slim the front sight. Your choice. Shoot at least 5 rounds, find the approximate center of the group, and adjust the elevation on the front sight (hope the group is not too high, 'cause that generally means a new, higher front sight).
You can develop a ratio of the sight radius to the target distance and determine how much to file off the front sight and/or drift it or the rear to center the group. I've found it is easier to drift the front rather than the rear. Now try another 5 shots group, but only move the sights 1/2 the distance to center the group. Given the round-to-round dispersion between shots, you are likely close enough for most uses.
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Develop your best shooting load combination using the sight picture that you can see the best. After you know what load is best, then move sights to hit where you want and fix them solidly ( the sights ).
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Archie,
Had to modify this after reading Wet Willy's post above. He is absolutely right that you need to figure out what is the best sight picture for you and if you have to change the width of the sight notch or blade as he mentioned.
The next thing to do is find the Ball/Patch/Lube/Powder (and Cap if you have a percussion gun) combination that shoots the tightest groups for how you plan on using the rifle. (Switching brands of caps will often or usually lead to changes in group size.) Each rifle will have normally two “accuracy” loads, one with just enough powder to get it to fly true and a larger powder amount that will be good for hunting medium to large game. For example, I have a .45 cal. flint rifle that prefers EXACTLY 42 ½ grains of FFFg for an accuracy load for shooting at 25 to 50 yard targets. However for a hunting load, it wants 80 grains of FFFg with the same ball/patch/lube combination it prefers. You don’t really care WHERE on the target the groups hit, but rather what loads make the smallest groups. Of course if you don’t plan to do much or any target shooting, then go straight to the heavier hunting load.
An extremely important part of this process is that you use the most stable position you can to get the smallest group sizes and for most of us that means some kind of rest on a bench. You really need to get as much human error as you can out of the accuracy testing or you will not find the most accurate load/s for your rifle. Later on you can adjust your sights to move the group where you want them to hit, but that comes after finding the smallest group your rifle can shoot.
I also most strongly suggest you use a different kind of target than what many people use to obtain the best accuracy load because it allows you to shoot more accurately. I’m referring to a standard 6 or 8 inch black bullseye on a white or off white target background, BUT with a 1” white circle or square in the center of the Bullseye. You aim at that 1” white circle or square. If you can’t find targets like this, then buy the white stick on labels from Office Supply stores and stick them in the center of the black bullseye. What this does is allow your eye to focus better and shoot tighter groups. OK, I’m not an Optician and can’t explain from a medical standpoint why it works, I just know it DOES work.
You MUST find the most accurate load from the most stable position for your rifle before doing anything else because then if you don’t shoot groups that small later on, you know it is YOU and not the rifle. Then you can work on more accurate positions and generally improving your shooting technique.
OK, after you find the load combination that gives you the best accuracy, what next? While still shooting from the bench, you should shoot at 25, 50, maybe 75 and 100 yards using the EXACT SAME aiming point. You NEED to know how much the groups drop or change position on the target at each range. I most strongly advise measuring how the group changes target position at 50, 75 and 100 yards and writing it down BOTH to get it in your mind and for later reference. It is also a good idea to record wind velocity and direction, temperature, humidity, how sunny or cloudy it is, etc., etc. The MORE you write down, the better it will be for later use and the better you will learn that rifle.
NOW that you have the most accurate load in your rifle and you know how the groups will change position at different ranges, you can begin to think about adjusting your sights, BUT it is not quite time to do that.
OK, this post is running long, so I will go into Part II on the next post.
Gus
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Archie,
How are you going to shoot the rifle most often? If you plan on shooting in muzzleloading competition, many if not most times that means shooting from the Offhand position. Even if you mainly plan on using the rifle for hunting, than I suggest it is best to do it in the offhand position as well. For MOST people and rifles, the group will move from where you shot the rifle off the bench. This is NORMAL and to be expected, so don’t be surprised at all when it happens.
Before you go moving the sights, you really should shoot three shot groups to ensure you are not changing the sights off a single shot that is not really representative of where the rifle is shooting. Normally it is best to shoot the group at 25 yards. If you jerk the trigger or drop the muzzle or do any error on one of the shots, ignore it and shoot another shot. You need three well aimed shots in the group. Figure out where the center of the three shot group is and that is what you want to move to change the point of impact.
It is easier to adjust windage (how the group hits to the left or right of center of the target) so that is normally what we adjust first.
OK, do you move the Rear Sight, Front Sight or Both?
It all depends on your eyesight and how the rifle shoots. Slight left or right adjustments may be done by moving he rear sight IN THE DIRECTION you want the center of the group to move. With the front sight centered on the barrel, this is normally how most side to side or windage adjustments are made. However, if you have to move the rear sight way over to the right or left, then it is best to move the front sight as well. A good many original rifles have the front sights a little to the right or left of center.
Moving the front sight to change group position side to side is DIFFERENT than moving the Rear Sight. The Front Sight is moved in the opposite direction of where you want to move the groups. IOW, if you want to move the group to the left, you have to move the Front Sight to the right. Now THAT is downright confusing, I know. GRIN. As a National Match Armorer, I have forgotten how many hundreds if not thousands of times I have moved Front Sights on M1 and M14 Rifles. The BEST way to remember it is you move the front sight towards the direction of the group, while you move the rear sight into the center of the bullseye.
After you get your group centered “side to side” for windage, then you start to adjust for elevation.
However, it’s very late and will have to type more later.
Gus
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Gus;
Your explanation(s) are most excellent and very clear. Thank you. I suggest that this material be put in the tutorial section.
dp
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Gus;
Your explanation(s) are most excellent and very clear. Thank you. I suggest that this material be put in the tutorial section.
dp
Dave,
Thank you for the kind words. I joke that having spent a career on Rifle Ranges, some things stuck, if nothing more than through Osmosis. Grin. I enjoy passing on things I've learned by way of thanks for things I learn on this forum. If the Moderators feel it is worthy of being a Tutorial, then I would be honored.
Gus
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Before going further, perhaps it is best to write about how to move rear and front sights right or left.
First one needs some kind of drift or punch against the side of either sight that is struck by a hammer to move the sight. It is EXTREMELY important to use a drift punch that is softer or at least no harder than the material of the sight, so you don’t ding up the sight with the drift punch. Sometimes one can use a hard wood dowel or Nylon Punch for this, but many times one needs something stronger than that and Brass or Bronze are normally the materials of choice.
There is no need to buy a set of Brass Gunsmith’s Drift Punches to move sights. If you know someone who works in a machine shop, perhaps they can get you a four or five inch length of ¼” Diameter Brass Rod. If not, go to a Boat/Marine store that carries supplies. I bought a 4” long, about ¼” diameter, round head domed Brass bolt (like a carriage bolt) years ago from such a store and it is my favorite punch for moving sights and other things. After filing off the machine threads, I filed the end to a rectangular shape and it is just the ticket to move sights. Then I filed a flat on the rounded dome and that is where I hit it with a brass or steel hammer.
Oh, another nice thing about using a brass or bronze drift punch is that you normally can’t see where it hit on a brass front sight. On an iron or steel rear sight, it leaves a little “wash” of brass color, but that can easily be cleaned off using one of the modern bore solvents designed to remove copper. Put some solvent on a Q Tip and rub hard on the brass “wash” and it will take it off without harming the finish on an Iron/Steel sight. Just make sure you oil it afterwards so it doesn’t rust.
When moving a Front Sight, it is EXTREMELY important you DO NOT hit the blade as you will bend, crack or even bust the blade off the dovetail base. Yep, I’ve seen folks do that too many times and that’s why I mention it. It is best to hold the gun in a padded vise, but at the range maybe you can get someone to hold the gun for you or lay the gun down on a pad on it’s side. You place the drift punch as close to the bottom of the dovetail sight base as you can and keep the face of the drift punch as even as you can with the dovetail. (You may need to file the drift punch so it is a smaller than the side of the dovetail or turn the punch so the smaller side of the rectangular shape is against the dovetail.)
Unless one is a Rifle Builder, most of us won’t know how tight the sights are in their dovetails when we go to adjust the sights. So when you carefully place the drift against one side of the front sight dovetail base, tap it lightly at first to see if it will move the front sight. If not, tap it a little harder. Keep trying to tap it a little harder each time until it just starts moving the sight base.
Something one may not think about is how can you tell how far you moved the sight? I normally use a 6” precision Machinist’s Rule (Steel Ruler) but most folks won’t have one of those. All you really need for the job is a Very Fine Tip Black Permanent marker. You draw one line on the sight base close to the middle and extend it onto the barrel. That way you can see how much you move the sight base each time and sometimes it will show you where to drive it back if you went too far or in the wrong direction. (Yep, that is bad experience talking. Grin.) When you are done moving the sight, some bore cleaner or Acetone will clean off the black mark and then oil it to ensure the barrel and sight (if Iron or Steel) doesn’t rust.
OK, so how far do you move a sight? There are mathematical formulae for different calibers that talk about moving the sight a fraction of an inch to move the strike of the bullet one inch at 100 yards, but to be honest, they are at best only a guide to moving sights. In the hundreds, if not thousands of front sights I’ve moved over the years, I found it wasn’t necessary or even much useful to use those formulae. There are too many differences in the way each shooter see’s the front sight. What I suggest is try moving a sight maybe 1/64” or at most 1/32” and shoot the rifle to see how far it moved the group. Then adjust a little and shoot until you get the group centered on the bullseye at 25 yards. This works best for folks who shoot in 25 and 50 yard matches and is a good starting point for longer range matches or hunting. You may find sights so adjusted will be off a little side to side at 50 yards, and if so, you just “hold” the sights or aim a little off center when you shoot, to center the group at 50 yards or further.
I wasn’t sure if I should add this last information, but decided to do so in case one has a RARE occurrence of a bore that is not well centered in the barrel. Most folks will never run into this, though. In such a case after one centers the group at 25 yards, the group will be WAY off to the right or left at 75 or 100 yards quite a few inches. In the old days as today to keep this from happening, gunsmiths and barrel makers bent the barrel to ensure the bore was straight. However in rare examples, sometimes the barrel would still shoot way off to the right or left. So what they did was take the barrel out of the stock, bend it and shoot and bend and shoot until it shot straight. I DO NOT recommend most people try this today because bending barrels is an Art Form that even many or most gunsmiths don’t know how to do properly. Normally it is best to return the barrel for replacement when this happens.
There is another option that people have done with muzzleloaders and modern rifles with fixed sights when a rifle is centered at 25 yards, but shoots 6 to 8 inches or more off at 100. Let’s say it is off that far to the right at 100. They move the sights so the group is centered a little more to the left at 25 yards so the group at 100 yards is not so far off to the right. It’s not great for shooting matches at 25 yards, but it normally is good enough for hunting small game like squirrels or rabbits when you aim a little off center at short ranges. However, on larger game like Deer, you aim center all the way to 100 yards as there is an 8 to 10 inch killing zone on deer and your group will be inside that zone from 25 to 100 yards.
Gus
Modified to add: There is no way to be certain sure how they adjusted sights in the original time period, but I THINK they did it similar to the last paragraph as it made it easy for fast shots while hunting.
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My memory being what it is, I only try to remember a simple "rule" - FORS - when it comes to adjusting iron sights.
If I need to shift impact using the front sight, move the sight opposite to that direction; FO = Front opposite. Shifting the point of impact using the rear sight, the rule is to move it in the same direction; RS = rear same. FO + RS = FORS!
J.B.
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When I go out to shoot a gun for the sight-in, I usualy bring a couple of the Quick-clamps with the rubber pads on the jaws with me. They wont do the job of a padded vice but still hold the gun well enough to do some front sight filing and moderate sight drifting.
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When I go out to shoot a gun for the sight-in, I usualy bring a couple of the Quick-clamps with the rubber pads on the jaws with me. They wont do the job of a padded vice but still hold the gun well enough to do some front sight filing and moderate sight drifting.
That is an EXCELLENT suggestion. I take a small screw on vise and use leather and cloth pads in it. The range it opens is less than 2" to clamp it onto a table or bench top, but I normally can find a wood bench top that is smaller than that to screw it on. However, it that were not available, I would use your excellent suggestion.
Gus
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My memory being what it is, I only try to remember a simple "rule" - FORS - when it comes to adjusting iron sights.
If I need to shift impact using the front sight, move the sight opposite to that direction; FO = Front opposite. Shifting the point of impact using the rear sight, the rule is to move it in the same direction; RS = rear same. FO + RS = FORS!
J.B.
J.B.
That's another good way to remember it. It doesn't really matter how one remembers, just so long as one does remember. GRIN.
Gus
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Gus,
The remembering part seems to be harder each year - I seem to recall.
J.B.
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Quote" I wasn’t sure if I should add this last information, but decided to do so in case one has a RARE occurrence of a bore that is not well centered in the barrel. Most folks will never run into this, though. In such a case after one centers the group at 25 yards, the group will be WAY off to the right or left at 75 or 100 yards quite a few inches. In the old days as today to keep this from happening, gunsmiths and barrel makers bent the barrel to ensure the bore was straight. However in rare examples, sometimes the barrel would still shoot way off to the right or left. So what they did was take the barrel out of the stock, bend it and shoot and bend and shoot until it shot straight. I DO NOT recommend most people try this today because bending barrels is an Art Form that even many or most gunsmiths don’t know how to do properly. Normally it is best to return the barrel for replacement when this happens." Quote
Gus, are you saying a horizontal bend in a barrel makes a bullet curve in flight?
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Gus, are you saying a horizontal bend in a barrel makes a bullet curve in flight?
Good question and the short answer is that it does not. What a horizontal bend does is change the position of the muzzle left to right, so when the ball leaves the muzzle, it would then be further left or right than before it was bent.
Bending barrels to change where the shot or bullet hits is mostly used today in centerfire shotguns and sometimes .22 rimfire rifles, but not usually in centerfire rifles.
Gus
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Yes, but if sights are set for center POI horizontal, windage, at 100 yrds, the POI and sighting hold is not going to be different at any distance between 0 and 100 yrds. There is no sight correction for 25yrds, 50 yrds, or any other distance in between, straight or bent barrel. The bullet flies in a straight line from the muzzle, with exception of elevation. The same sight picture is used for any distance in between with no left or right corrections. There is nothing to correct. Groups do not change position at different ranges except for elevation, or beyond the sight setting in which case is due to error in setting being magnified by more distance.
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LRB,
What you are missing is that after the barrel is bent so the ball flies straight from the muzzle in a new direction, is that the sights are reset to take advantage of that change in direction of the barrel sending the ball in a different direction. (In a Longrifle, the forearm would have had to have been steam or water bent to match the new bend in the barrel if the barrel was bent enough so it would not slip back into the forearm.) On a half stock gun, it is easier to bend the barrel when there is not a full length forearm.
As an extreme example, let's say you have the front sight all the way towards the right side of the barrel and the rear sight is all the way to the left side of the barrel and your ball is STILL hitting too far to the right at 100 yards. Besides replacing the barrel, how could you fix that? The answer is to slightly bend the barrel to the left and then adjust the sights closer to center on the barrel if the ball now flies far enough closer to center on the target to move the sights..
Gus.
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You kinda skirted the issue as you often do. The discussion was the sight settings and POI at different rages between 0 and 100yrds. Sights set for a center strike at 100yrds do not have to be manually or visually corrected for a 25 yrd shot. The bullet will strike center from muzzle to the 100yrds with exception of elevation deviation. I've bent barrels. It is not rocket science, and a LR or full stock does not have to be steam bent for the barrel to fit back into it. Bending to straighten a slight deviation in order to better center sights usually only requires a fraction or so, and a LR or trade gun fore end is so thin as to not be a problem. For one to have to correct windage at 25 yrds, with sights set for 100yrds, the ball would have to be curving in flight. That only happens from wind forces. Elevation is a different concern.
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“Kinda skirted the issue as I often do?”
Let me go back to an earlier post where I wrote, “I wasn’t sure if I should add this last information, but decided to do so in case one has a RARE occurrence of a bore that is not well centered in the barrel. Most folks will never run into this, though. In such a case after one centers the group at 25 yards, the group will be WAY off to the right or left at 75 or 100 yards quite a few inches”
So in my last post, I gave an example where a gun is sighted in at 25 yards and is way off at 100 yards and no further room to adjust with the fixed sights. THAT is skirting the issue as I often do? Of course it isn’t. I was speaking to something that I had already written was a “RARE occurrence” and that “Most folks will never run into this, though.”
As to not needing to steam or water bend the forearm, I already wrote that would only be necessary if the bent barrel would not slip back into the forearm after the barrel was bent.
Then you wrote, “For one to have to correct windage at 25 yrds, with sights set for 100yrds, the ball would have to be curving in flight.”
You do realize that is something entirely different than I was discussing, don’t you? At least I hope so. You give an example where the sights are already set at 100 yards and that means the deviation in the bore to outside barrel contour can not be off that much in that barrel or else you would not be able to set the sights at 100 yards.
I gave an example where the bullet impact was way off at 100 with no sight adjustment left , or IOW where one could not set the sights at 100 yards. This would demonstrate a RARE occurrence where the bore is off alignment with the outside of the barrel and something most people will never run into. That is why I hesitated to even bring it up.
Gus
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Oh, and as far as bending barrels is not rocket science, I agree it is not rocket science, but it does require some care and knowledge that many people do not have.
I have seen results of people who did not have knowledge or used much care and then damaged barrels and that included octagonal rifle barrels (both repro and one original barrels) and one original P1858 Enfield. Other smiths I've talked to have mentioned they have seen it in repro Uncivil War Rifle Musket and Rifle barrels. Now even a 3 band Rifle Musket barrel has more steel in the barrel than many fowler barrels, so the persons who damaged those barrels obviously should have gotten more knowledge and used more care or should not have tried to bend those barrels.
So I normally don't encourage amateurs to try bending barrels and especially not in a thread where the original poster is asking how to sight in a barrel.
Gus
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"There is another option that people have done with muzzleloaders and modern rifles with fixed sights when a rifle is centered at 25 yards, but shoots 6 to 8 inches or more off at 100. Let’s say it is off that far to the right at 100. They move the sights so the group is centered a little more to the left at 25 yards so the group at 100 yards is not so far off to the right. It’s not great for shooting matches at 25 yards, but it normally is good enough for hunting small game like squirrels or rabbits when you aim a little off center at short ranges. However, on larger game like Deer, you aim center all the way to 100 yards as there is an 8 to 10 inch killing zone on deer and your group will be inside that zone from 25 to 100 yards.
Gus"
Why would you not just set the sights for center at 100? Then you can hold dead center at 25 or any range in between 0 and 100. I assume we are discussing an accurate rifle and load. Now, if one has run out of sight adjustment room, I can understand doing as you suggested, but that would really be the time to bend the barrel, or have it done. What am I missing here? I believe I am just misunderstanding your explanations, but am not sure. By the way, years ago it was common and even expected that a bore was not centered in a ML barrel. The makers put their mark on the flat that would affect elevation only. The builder usually knew to position this mark to the bottom of the barrel when inletting, or sometimes on top. Am pretty sure Douglas did this. Dixie Gun Works barrels were this way, and probably Numrich Arms.
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Archie,
Before one begins adjusting your sights for elevation, I suggest it is a good idea to pull out one’s recorded notes on how far one’s groups moved or dropped where they hit on targets from 25 yards to 50, maybe 75 and 100 yards and using the same aiming point at the white 1” circle or square in the center of the bullseye on each target. Hopefully you will have notes on this for both your lighter powder charge target loads along with your heavier powder charge for your hunting load. You may find the Patched Round Ball (PRB from now on) groups do not drop as much with the heavier charge hunting load as with the lighter target loads. The difference can be small or noticeable depending on the difference in ranges fired, powder charges, the caliber of the rifle and the rifle itself.
For example, years ago I owned an original circa 1850, .36 caliber percussion half stock rifle. I was not concerned with a heavier hunting load as I only shot that rifle in 25 and 50 yard competition. (Oh, and any small critter I was going to shoot with a .36 caliber rifle would not notice the difference in the lighter accuracy load.) I joked that rifle shot like a laser beam with the best accuracy/target load and there was so little drop between 25 and 50 yards, I barely had to hold higher to hit the center of the 50 yard bullseye compared to my 25 yard sight in. There was also so little difference in windage deviation between 25 and 50, I just held slightly off for it unless the wind was blowing hard and then held off more. I wanted to keep the 25 yard sight in for my sight adjustment because we shot at strings held down by weights and split the ball on the axe blade at that distance, besides bullseyes and other types of target. At 50 yards we shot at bullseyes or other targets that were easier to hit than strings or axe blades.
Many people who only shoot 25 and 50 yard matches find there is so little difference in bullet drop at 50, that they just use the 25 yard sight in for both and only hold a little higher when aiming at 50 yards. However, when you go to longer ranges, there is more bullet drop with a PRB.
Here is an example of bullet drop for a .50 Cal. PRB starting out at 1900 FPS at the muzzle and that is normally a hunting load. (I got this from a post DPhariss posted in the “Rifle Accuracy 1776” thread from this forum.)
Range Drop in inches
0 0
25 0.41
50 1.61
75 3.82
100 7.32
125 12.44
150 19.48
So if one sighted one’s rifle at only 25 yards for hunting, the 7.32” drop at 100 will just keep you inside the 8 – 10 inch killing zone for deer, but you will be outside the zone at 125 yards which may only cripple the deer. So most folks sight in their rifles for hunting at a further distance.
On the first chart in the following link, it shows the trajectory of a .50 caliber ball at 1800 FPS when sighted in at 125 yards. Notice how the ball does not rise or fall more than 3.5” from 0 to about 135 yards? What is important about that is on a deer sized target (with the rifle sighted in at 125 yards at the listed bullet speed), you can aim dead center on the 8-10” killing zone of a deer anywhere from 0 to 135 yards and the ball will land in the killing zone. (The ball will actually strike higher or lower in the killing zone than your dead center aiming point at different ranges inside that 135 yards, but still inside the killing zone.) IOW, you don’t have to worry about aiming higher or lower anywhere along that distance to stay inside the killing zone. Some folks refer to this as the “Point Blank Range” for hunting and find it is the most useful way to sight in a rifle for hunting.
http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/long_range_muzzleloading.htm
Now, one can’t completely go off any chart when sighting in a rifle. The most accurate hunting load for your rifle may give more or less velocity than listed in a chart. That is why it is good to shoot your rifle out to 100 yards with your heavier charge hunting load and farther if possible, if you plan on hunting with it and record EXACTLY how much the groups drop at each range. Then you can work out the best range to sight in your rifle to get the “Point Blank Range.”
The following link explains in much more detail about doing this and should help you.
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/trajectories.html
Gus
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Why would you not just set the sights for center at 100? Then you can hold dead center at 25 or any range in between 0 and 100. I assume we are discussing an accurate rifle and load. Now, if one has run out of sight adjustment room, I can understand doing as you suggested, but that would really be the time to bend the barrel, or have it done. What am I missing here? I believe I am just misunderstanding your explanations, but am not sure. By the way, years ago it was common and even expected that a bore was not centered in a ML barrel. The makers put their mark on the flat that would affect elevation only. The builder usually knew to position this mark to the bottom of the barrel when inletting, or sometimes on top. Am pretty sure Douglas did this. Dixie Gun Works barrels were this way, and probably Numrich Arms.
LRB,
I was typing the post above and posted it, before I read this post of yours.
Archie did not mention how he was going to use the rifle, so the way to sight in would be different according to what targets and what ranges he would shoot.
As I tried to explain in my recent post above, if one is going to shoot competition at 25 yards where you have to cut a taught string with a ball or split a ball on an axe blade, then I suggest it is preferable to sight in the rifle at 25 yards for that precise of shooting. Sighting in at 100 yards may (if not may often) cause one to use more sight adjustment for windage that would cause one to miss a string or axe blade at 25 yards.
Since Archie did not reply how he was going to use the rifle, I thought it best to explain how it would be best to sight in depending on how he was going to use it. A lot of people new to muzzleloading don’t know these things.
Now perhaps I spent too many years being the “Instructor of OJT’s” (Apprenticeship Instructor) at the RTE Shop at Quantico teaching Marines to become NM Armorers and in teaching new things to others in the shop and other Marines in other places. I never knew what students knew or didn’t know and it varied a lot from person to person. So I always told students that I would start from “ground zero” because I did not want some students to miss things other students already knew OR might be important to them and they did not know to ask about it. I don't pretend to know everything, of course, but always try to impart as much as I can.
I’ve been around Muzzleloaders since before I first started competing at Friendship in 1974 on the Primitive range. So, yes, I learned years ago to look for the mark you mentioned used to be commonly placed on barrels. Even with that mark on some barrels, it was “Old Hat” even then to look for Bore Run Out on muzzleloading barrels and place the end of the barrel where the bore was more centered at the muzzle.
Good point you made bringing it up here, as folks new to muzzleloading probably don’t know it, though.
Gus
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Well Gus, sadly, I did not misunderstand you. Take care, and carry on. :)
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Very well, have a good day.
Gus
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Archie,
My apology as I forgot to mention earlier that sometimes you have to “clean up” the sighting notch in the rear sight. If when you look through the Rear Sight Notch (RSN) and it is fuzzy or if there is not enough light showing in the notch on either side of the front sight blade when you look through and align the front and rear sights, then you should think about cleaning up the Rear Sight notch by filing a little to true it up or change it as you prefer. However, if your RSN is crisp and clear and looks good to you, then don’t worry about it.
So perhaps it is best to explain why a RSN can look hazy or something is just not right with it. If the rear of the notch that faces your eye is wider than the front of the notch, that gives you a kind of tunnel like vision. If the notch is cut dead even through its length, but is mounted a little crooked, you will see the front part of the notch on one side as you look through the notch. If you have a “Square” or “U” shaped notch and one or both sides of the notch are crooked, that can give you sighting errors for windage or errors in the way your shots impact on the target side to side. If the bottom of the notch is hazy, that is usually because the front bottom of the notch is higher than the rear bottom of the notch. Yes, I realize you don’t use the bottom of the notch when sighting, but if not formed correctly, sunlight can bounce off it on a bright day and make the sight notch look fuzzy.
Since most of us don’t have Precision Milling Machines at home, we have to resort to files to clean up an improperly shaped Rear Sight Notch so it looks crisp and clear. If you have or prefer a “V’ notch, then you need a small knife edge file and sometimes a Knife Edge Jewelers or Swiss File is just the ticket, though sometimes you need a slightly larger file. Personally, I don’t like a “V” shaped notch and prefer a notch where the sides are parallel to the sides of the Front Sight Blade. So I use a fine Flat Jewelers or Swiss File that I ground and sanded a safe edge on one edge that is placed on the bottom of the notch and a second such file that is square if the bottom of the notch is square/flat (if the bottom of the notch is rounded, then use a round Swiss file).
I learned to clean up Rear Sight Notches by having to do it on Bullseye and International Pistol Sights, but until I learned the following trick, I absolutely hated to do it. I was originally taught to file the sight notch from the rear, but that’s the hard way to do it. It is best to file on the notch from the front of the notch so you can “sneak up” to the rear edge that you look through. It does not hurt at all if the front of the notch is a little wider than the rear, so that gives you room for human error. Matter of fact, some notches are made that way. Also, because you want the front bottom of the notch even or lower than the rear bottom of the notch, it is easier to file that from the front of the sight. Now, don’t get me wrong, there are some folks who can do a great job cleaning up the sight notch from the rear, but I’ve found it is easier for more folks to do it from the front. After you get it the way you like it, use cold blue to cover the shiny metal, then oil and dry it so there is no oil slick on the surface.
While we are on the subject of filing, perhaps this is a good time to bring up filing down the front sight if the groups you shoot are hitting too low on the target. The method I will describe is not historically correct for all time periods of front sights on muzzleloading rifles, but it works. When you file the front sight blade down, you want the rear edge that you see to be perpendicular to the sides of the front sight blade. From that edge forward, it is normally best for shooting that the top of the front sight angles downward towards the muzzle, at least a little, to ensure the sight picture is good. Now it may be daunting to some folks who have never tried to file flat and at an angle at the same time, to do this. (I remember what it was like trying to file down the front sight blades on NM M14’s and M1’s when I first began doing it and it is not normally easy at first.)
Well, there is another trick you can often use on front sights for muzzleloading barrels to do this, though not all the time when the front sight is too close to the muzzle. If there is at least ¼” to 3/8” of barrel ahead of the front of the front sight blade, this will work. You need a Nicholson or Stanley 8” Handy File that you can easily get at Lowe’s, Home Depot and other hardware stores. (There is a link to show you what I mean at the end of this paragraph.) This is a nice flat file that is medium coarse on one side and fine on the other. Normally when you file the front sight blade, you will use the fine side unless it is REALLY shooting low and you have to take quite a lot off the top of the sight blade, but you finish filing it with the smooth side.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Nicholson-8-in-Blade-Handy-File-06601/100208251
You also need a piece of drill rod or something that is round and the same diameter for at least ½ inch to one inch. (Worst case scenario is you can use a small block that is of uniform thickness.) The top of the round rod when laid down flat on the barrel across the top barrel flat and ahead of the front sight blade, needs to be a little lower than the top of the front sight blade. (Same thing for the block if you have to use that.) Now lay the cutting portion of the file on top of the front sight blade near the rear end of the cutting portion and the smooth handle on top the rod. (You do NOT want the cutting portion of the file to go over the rod.) By applying gentle pressure evenly down on the file over top the rod and pushing forward maybe 3/8” to ½” at a time per file stroke, it will cut the angle going down towards the muzzle. If you are lucky, it will also cut the rear of the top of the sight blade parallel to the sides of the blade. If not, then still using gentle pressure and short strokes, put a little pressure on the side of the file where the high spot is until the top of the rear of the front sight is perpendicular to the sides of the sight.
Sorry, but that is all I can write now, but will be back for more later.
Gus
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One thing I wanted to add to the post above on filing front sights is by filing along the length of the Front Sight Blade as suggested, instead of filing perpendicular to the blade, makes it easier to not bend a thin front sight made out of brass or silver. If you are filing perpendicular to the length of a thin brass or silver blade and your file catches instead of cuts, it can too easily bend the blade sideways. It is even possible to bend a thin steel front sight blade, as found on M1903 rifles for example, when filing perpendicular to the blade and the file catches. (Yes, it has happened to me a couple times over the years even when I'm careful to clean the file between strokes.)
Gus
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Archie,
If you are primarily going to use the rifle for hunting deer, then I suggest using the information you recorded for your heavier powder charge load on how far the groups dropped at each range. If the area you hunt in may cause you to shoot at longer ranges, then it probably would be a good idea to set targets up at 125 yards and maybe 150 yards to see how much the groups drop at that range. Then you can figure out at what range you need to sight in your rifle so the ball will rise or drop no more than 3 to 4 inches anywhere along the distance you shoot as mentioned in an earlier post. This is a bit harder to do than other techniques, but it will better show you where your ball will land along the length of any shot you make. You also don’t have to worry about doing mental math while trying to make a shot on a deer within that range, so it takes away that problem when hunting when you may already be excited when taking the shot.
Some folks will suggest for a hunting rifle that you simply sight in your rifle at 100 yards and file the front sight and move the rear sight as necessary for that range. Then you aim dead center in the killing zone of a deer at any range out to or slightly beyond 100 yards. This is easier to do if where you hunt you will never shoot beyond 100 yards or not much beyond 100 yards. They may also suggest shooting at 125 and 150 yards to see how much the bullet will drop at that range and aim higher to make up for it at each range. If you do that, then I would suggest shooting the rifle at 50 and 75 yards as well to see how high the groups hit at those ranges.
There are some people who recommend for a .50 cal. rifle and round ball, that you use 50 grains of powder for the 25 yard line, 60 grains at 50 yards and 80 grains at 100 yards. They claim that by sighting in at 25 yards with the 50 grain load and using the heavier powder charges at the longer ranges, you can aim dead center at all ranges and it will keep you in the bullseye. I tried that many years ago with a .50 caliber rifle I had and found I was not happy with the size groups I got at the different ranges, so I don’t recommend it. However, some folks have said it worked well in their rifles. Just thought I would mention it if you have run into someone who recommends it.
OK, what happens if your rifle shoots too high at 125 yards or whatever is the Point Blank Range to sight in your rifle? Then you need a taller front sight or you need to lower your rear sight. It can be easier for many people to file down the top of the Rear Sight if that sight is flat along the top of the sight and the rifle is not shooting very high. However, if your rifle is a factory rifle and they offer a taller front sight, then that would be easier to replace the front sight than filing down the rear sight.
If they don’t offer a taller front sight for your rifle, or if the front sight was custom installed, the first thing I would suggest is contacting the builder to find out what front sight blade was used. Many folks find it easier to have the builder install a higher front sight or solder on a piece of metal to make the front sight higher.
If you don’t know who the builder was, then you have to accurately measure the size of the dovetail base and height of the front sight blade on your rifle. You want the base to be the same size as the one on your rifle or maybe slightly larger so you can fit it to the dovetail in the barrel. OR if you know how to Silver Solder or know someone who can do it for you, you can use a Low Temp Silver Solder to solder on a piece of the same metal as the front sight on top the front sight to raise the height of the front sight. Then you file that piece to the shape of the rest of the front sight. If either of these things are beyond one’s capability, then it is best to have someone else do the work such as a local builder or gunsmith.
Hope this information is helpful for you.
Gus
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When filing sights at the range, I hold the gun, Taylor files the sights.
It is always best to make your front sight too tall. That way, filing the front sight is much easier than having to file the rear sight.
I do not see how a well made gun barrel can be on at 25 yards and out 6" at 100 - or 2" left at 25 and on at 100 - doesn't make sense to me -
unless
just back from the muzzle, the bore takes an angle to one side of the barrel in the last few inches of the barrel so the ball is being launched off at an angle to the centre-line of the barrel.
Thus, to be sighted in at 25 even, the sights will have to be mounted to either side of the barrel's dovetails, ie: rear to the far left side, and the front sight to the far right side - just to get that ball lined up at 25 yards. I do think under that circumstance, it is logical to think the ball would be off at 50 and at 100 still.
Any thoughts on this?
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When filing sights at the range, I hold the gun, Taylor files the sights.
It is always best to make your front sight too tall. That way, filing the front sight is much easier than having to file the rear sight.
I do not see how a well made gun barrel can be on at 25 yards and out 6" at 100 - or 2" left at 25 and on at 100 - doesn't make sense to me -
unless
just back from the muzzle, the bore takes an angle to one side of the barrel in the last few inches of the barrel so the ball is being launched off at an angle to the centre-line of the barrel.
Thus, to be sighted in at 25 even, the sights will have to be mounted to either side of the barrel's dovetails, ie: rear to the far left side, and the front sight to the far right side - just to get that ball lined up at 25 yards. I do think under that circumstance, it is logical to think the ball would be off at 50 and at 100 still.
Any thoughts on this?
Daryl,
You wrote: “I do not see how a well made gun barrel can be on at 25 yards and out 6" at 100 - or 2" left at 25 and on at 100 - doesn't make sense to me –“
You are correct. I added the underline and emboldened emphasis because by definition, a well made gun barrel almost totally, if not always precludes this from ever happening. It only happens in barrels that are not well made or if the barrel happened to be one that slipped by an inspection process or if the manufacturer just “let it go.” This is why I mentioned it was so rare and that most people will never run into it and also why I was hesitant to even bring it up.
I want to make it very clear I am not referring to the barrels made by any American barrel maker for the muzzle loading trade.
I have only seen it one time, myself, and that was in one of the poor quality “Generic” Plains Rifles that was imported into this country. It was back in the mid 80’s and don’t remember if the rifle came from Spain, Italy or somewhere else. The then current owner was not the person who bought the gun originally and he did not know where the rifle came from except where he bought it at a second hand store/ almost antique “Junke Shoppe.” It was brought to me at a NSSA Spring or Fall championship, because folks knew “I messed with Round Ball Guns” as they used to say.
The owner had tried to sight it in at 25 yards and had moved the rear sight all the way to one side, but it still was off. As an NSSA Skirmisher only, he did not know about moving the front sight, but from what he described, it did not sound like moving the front sight would help that much. I only gave the rifle a cursory inspection as I was up to my eyeballs in trigger jobs for Rifle Muskets and Smith Carbines and did not really have time to pull the breech plug. The quality of the lock was also very poor. I told him it would cost a whole lot more money to fix than it was worth and suggested it would be better to spend the money on another rifle. As he walked away, one of the Head Skirmishers on the NSSA Ordnance Committee noted he had seen another rifle like that and heard of a couple others.
The only reason I even mentioned it earlier in this thread was because Archie did not describe what gun he was trying to sight in. If he had a poor quality foreign gun, something like this could happen (though rare as I mentioned). I did not think it important to go into great detail on it as such an occurrence was/is so rare. I thought it more important to describe “sighting in” in detail.
Daryl, I do think you gave a good explanation on at least one way the barrel was improperly made that would have caused it to be so far off at 25, let alone 100 yards.
Gus
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi289.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll240%2FJoethebowM%2Fth_sight_pictures_zpsd9bf186d.jpg&hash=3e21872877a6e00e056e81800151f144ded41c9b) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/JoethebowM/media/sight_pictures_zpsd9bf186d.jpg.html)
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I question that first sight "picture," the peep sight. I was taught in the military to center the bullseye in the peep and put the post under that. And that is the way I have always shot a peep.
dp
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That's the way I remember it as well dp.
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I don't know this for certain, but I think they aimed "Point of Aim, Point of Impact" or “Center Hold” in the original time period as it is better for hunting. Placing the front sight at the bottom of the bullseye seems to be a more modern sight picture that is very useful for shooting at bullesye targets. Though there were some bullseyes during the period, most targets were not bullseyes.
I know I prefer a point of aim sight picture for hunting while I use the front sight at the bottom of a bullseye for target shooting.
Though the following link shows a square notch rear sight, it shows a “Point of Aim” or “Center Hold” sight picture.
http://0.tqn.com/d/hunting/1/0/s/Q/hunting-sight-picture.jpg
Gus
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I personally believe it is whatever works best for each of us unless we are required (as taught for example - in the military) to use a certain hold where as if you would ever needed to pick up (in my case) an M16 from a fallen brother in arms because your own rifle failed - you would have the same elevation (not so much windage) as you had with your own disabled rifle.
I will admit that for the past 38 years I have used the center hold in civilian life with all my firearms. I have a mental picture of 10-12-2 o'clock in my mined when I aim one of my fixed sight's muzzle loader's at any range beyond 25 yards of where I will hold to place a shot beyond my dead zero of one inch high at 25 yards. This works for me, it may not work for others, but again their hold and their shot is not my hold nor my shot. I respond only to my shooting and will not advise another on how to make their shot unless I'm pressed for help from them. Best advice is to know basic knowledge of aiming, and the rest is a learning process between you and your long rifle, and whatever works best for you. :)
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I absolutely agree what works for one person may or may not work for another in shooting and each shooter should seek out what works best for him/her.
For hunting medium to large game, I suggest using the Point Blank Range method outlined earlier and a center hold. Then one does not have to do any mental calculations for elevation in one’s head within the effective range of that rifle. Just aim in as close to the center of the killing zone as you can from 15 to possibly as far as 125 to 135 yards (depending on the caliber and powder charge) and the ball will most likely land within the killing zone as far as elevation goes. Of course, one still has to account for wind velocity working on the projectile if the target is closer to one’s own maximum point blank range. When one also has to lead a moving target; aiming off for windage and leading the target, while keeping the sights aligned on what would be the center of the killing zone – well, I figure that is more than enough to handle when trying to make a good shot. Grin.
Now if another technique works better for a person, then definitely that person should use what is best for him or her.
Gus