AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: brooktrout on June 14, 2014, 04:17:43 AM
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After firing each round I run a patch down to clean out the "big stuff". At the end of the day I think I do a good job of cleaning the bore. Use a "cleaning tool" which attaches to the breach and draws hot soapy water in and out the torch hole (via a small plastic tube dropped in a bucket) when the cleaning rod/patch is pushed and pulled in and out. Lots of soapy bubbles! That is followed by tons of dry patch cleaning until they come out almost totally clean. That is followed with a few lightly oiled patches and then hung back on the wall. A few days later I run several more dry patches down the bore and always seem to get a fair amount of rust. After 5 to 10 patches are used, once again they come out nearly clean and that is followed with a lightly oiled patch and once again, it's put back on the wall And a few days after that 3rd recleaning is done. I'll check the bore again with a dry patch but it generally comes out pretty clean.
I have not used any "chemical" cleaner....Dawn and hot water only. Oil has varied. Rem Oil, Balistol (sp?) and even Amzoil but don't see much difference in their ability to "prevent the rust" as noted on the second and 3rd cleaning cleaning.
Am I missing anything or will some minor rust almost always be there on followup cleaning?
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Use cold water.
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I am like Smiley Grouch. I usually clean with wet patches with plain tap water without the soap. Follow that with dry wipes and let the barrel warm up in the AZ sun while doing this. Then a sloppy Ballistol wipe for and dry with patches. Followed by another moist Ballistol path for short term or CLP for longer term storage. About 10 minutes does it for the barrel. Few more minutes to wipe down the outside and thooth brush rinse the lock and re lube it.
Rust isn't an issue and I don't have to re clean.
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My procedure is basically the same as Brooktrout, with the same results. I have tried cold water, with and without dawn, warm water with and without dawn and any other concoction I could think of and always get the same results. A couple days later there is rust color on the patches.Not much but there is some.I never let it go more than a couple days to see if the rust got worse for fear of damage to the barrel.
Bob
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Cold water? Don't know why that would be better but I'll try anything. I think maybe Jerry V has hit on something however. Next time I will make a serious effort to warm the barrel to help dry it out before the patch with the oil is applied. If I cannot do it via sunlight I might try a hair dryer, not "hot" but just "warm" to get some air moving down there. The rust must be the consequences of moisture and even with an oiled patch it remains so drying the bore out might help and then hit it with the oiled patch?
A chemist friend visited over the past few days and we discussed the cleaning procedure. He seemed to feel the interior barrel surface, esp in the groves, can "retain" some moisture. Don't think it was that it actually "absorbed" moisture during the cleaning but that the moisture was not all being removed before the oiled patch was used.
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"Hot" water will cause flash rust in your barrel, a fine grained rust that forms very rapidly. Tepid or cold water is the right method. That is what I use, plain tap water and no soap which might and probably do contain salts as an element in their manufacture. Hot water and soap is a sure-fire way to form the rust you speak of.
dp
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I use windshield washer fluid. Pour a little down the barrel then cover the muzzle with a thumb while sloshing back and forth a few times from breech to muzzle. Then let sit while you go retrieve your target frame. Pour it out and swab with several patches. When bore is dry use a patch wet with Break Free CLP, followed by a dry patch.
Since using the CLP I have not seen any problems with after rust like I used to have.
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I too clean with cold tap water. For some reason I just thought about the water softener in the garage that my wife had to have. It uses salt. Is there enough sodium chloride dissolved in the water to be an issue? How about mineral salts in hard tap water?
Or am I picking at nits, finding trouble where none exists?
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The water at my house is well water, just as ma nature made it, so I don't worry about what the city puts in it. It is perfect for getting a boiled blue too, no need for distilled water from the store.
I must say the CLP is good, I now use it instead of Ballistol. For the last year I have had three barrels in the shop awaiting stocking and when I switched from periodically coating them with Ballistol to CLP I have had no more problems with rust. I live in a natural browning environment here in Georgia, its hot and humid a great deal of the time and rusting is a problem you have to keep after.
dp
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OK, cold water it will be! Now, what is CLP?
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Break Free CLP = Cleaning, Lubricating, Protectant. Break Free also makes other combinations so read the label when buying. I started using it while in the Army as it was issue stuff. Only needs a thin film, any excess will migrate pretty quickly. If you wanted to waste money it can be used alone as your cleaner as well but tap water turns out to be a great solvent for the salts in black powder residue and is relatively inexpensive in most places. I am told French shotguns prefer Perierre though.
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Brooktrout, I use cold tap water, dry the best I can with clean cotton flannel patches and use WD-40 after that. I feel that you have to be sure that all the water is gone befor you use whatever oil you use. This has worked for me and countless others for many years.
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Please keep in mind that deionized (softened) water and distilled water are rather corrosive in nature.
The greater the difference in concentration of salts (including metal salts) between the water and the metal it contacts, the greater the corrosive effects of the water.
Water from your local drinking water treatment plant has salts in it. They never remove all the salts. If they did, it would be very corrosive for pipes and would taste terrible. Natural water has salts in it. Bottled drinking water is purified of everything, then they add back salts to give it taste.
So, don't use softened, deionized or distilled water to clean your barrel.
Ron
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OK, cold water it will be! Now, what is CLP?
CLP is a BreakFree Corp Product, "Clean, Lube, Protect".
I have the same issues you do with a 70s era .40 cal flinter I acquired a year ago. A friend owns the companion gun, although in percussion, and his has a very rough bore. I'm thinking that my bore, while not noticeably pitted, may have some pitting somewhere down there that allows fouling to escape cleaning and sort of 'leach out' overnight.
Good luck, SCL
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I am SO GLAD and relieved so many guys have switched to cold or cool water for cleaning - makes my heart glad.
Flushing/pumping water into and out of the bore is the right way, in my opinion. The gizmo Track sells will work, but some guys have difficulty with it.
Cold water is also right & is not my idea, but that of one of the very best black powder rifle and shotgun makers the world has ever seen, the British Company called Holland and Holland form the 1800's.
Holland and Holland advised my friend (I read the letter) to use cold tap water to clean his multi ten's of thousands of dollars valued double rifles and shotguns that used black powder - muzzlelaoding and cartridge - and also, after flushing the black powder fouling from the bores, to then dry them with cotton patches until dry. Those patches were not for cleaning, but merely for drying - flushing water into and out of the bore using a tight fitting patch, does the cleaning.
Dry patches introduced into the bore do not clean - the bore/bores are now clean from the flushing/pumping of water into and out and merely need drying. If the first patch picks up fouling - the bore/bores are not clean and must be cleaned first. That is what the water is for.
Alternate method:
Plug the vent or nipple - pour cold or cool water into the bore right tot he muzzle's edge, muzzle upright - let it sit for 10 minutes - then put a patch on the jag and just start it into the bore, pull the 'pick' from the vent - and push down hard, forcing the water to blast out the vent hole, and with it much of the fouling. Remove the now- filthy-dirty patched jag, plug the vent and do it again. After the second time, use more patches - 2 or 3 if still dirty, repeat the water. It's a @!*% sight quicker to remove the barrel and shove the tang-end into a bucket of water.
Forgot to mention - after drying the bore - CLEAN patches resulting every time or at least by the 2nd or third - Pour or spray a quantity of WD40 down the bore until it runs out the vent. Then patched jag - blast that out the bore and run it up and down, removing after 3 or 4 strokes. I then use that patch to wipe down the outside of the barrel, and out side of the lock before replacing it. The WD40 or other good water displacing lubricant is also H&H's suggestion after drying inside and out.
Ask Taylor how to make a wooden 'jig' to protect the tang from bending while it is in the bucket. Tenn. rifles with those long, over the comb tangs - you're on your own - maybe my 'alternate' method of cleaning is all you can do.
After cleaning my guns as above - NO RUST - EVER!
Note - there is a company in the States making ML barrels and/or selling ML parts or kits who calls themselves, Holland and Holland or H&H.
That company is NOT the long time respected firm of Holland and Holland I am referring to above.
As to the locks - removed, brushed clean with a tooth brush (my wife's) under a cold water tap, then blown off with compressed air, sprayed with WD40, then shaken and wiped off and replaced.
Just kidding about 'whose' toothbrush.
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I have an ultrasonic cleaner that I use to clean casings for reloading and also gun parts. Of course the cleaned parts are treated with corrosion protectants and lubed where necessary.
What are your thoughts on using the ultrasonic cleaner on locks? After thorough cleaning, the locks would be treated with anticorrosives as above.
It is hard to get into the spaces between the springs and small parts of the lock. Ultrasonic cleaning would seem the tool for that.
Thanks,
Ron
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Unfortunately,I don't have a compressor. After thoroughly submerging my lock in a pot of cold water and brushing clean a la Daryls,on a doubled paper towel I blow the lock out with a steady stream of wd40. Let it sit a few seconds and hit it again, then wipe dry, lube and re-install. BORE CLEANING...boy do I catch a lot of flack around here how I do it. Daryls calls it the "Alternate Method", Taylor calls is it "the shitting with your pants on" method! Others have worse names.Even so,others have worse methods. I use it only because I have a pinned barrel and bolted tang.Hooked breach type I pump flush,barrel in a bucket. With a pinned custom rifle I'm paranoid of screwing up the wood pushing pins that I see double of! The pump flush method,in my humble opinion, is faster and far more thorough the SWYPO ;D method.
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For years my standard cleaning routine has been cool water with Murphy's Oil Soap (4 to 1)poured in the barrel with a toothpick plugging the touchhole, let it stand while I cut old cotton teeshirt patches, when I have the jag and patch in the barrel I pull the toothpick force the water out while pumping the cleaning rod. More patches are used to dry the bore and when they come out dry a patch heavy with CLP is used to swab the bore, barrel exterior, muzzle and nosecap. A damp patch with my soap/ water mix cleans the stock around the lock.
I am always fascinated by the variety of "tried and true" or "best" ways to clean our rifles and the reasons we swear by them.
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Seems there is more than one way to clean a bore and more than one prefect treatment to prevent rust. Went out looking for some CLP. Got myself a can and gave the bores a dose. Well see how it works. I probably am the only one who did not know that the stuff can be hard on a newly finished stock. Some of the excess dripped on the wood at the muzzle and turned the rag red as it was removed. No damage but it probably should NOT be allowed to get on the finished. I'll do future cleaning with it and WD40 and see which seems to work best.
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I've used most of methods, that have already been mentioned. I have several black powder rifles, and some barrels just seem to be more prone to rust, than others. I use the tightest patch that I can get down the barrel. Some of the round bottom rifles barrels, seem to need patches with more texture. I sometimes put a thin rimfire patch behind the main patch, to make it tighter in the bore. I keep records of rifles, that have rusted in the past, and keep a close eye on them. Black Powder rifles, are not for the lazy, and require a lot more attention, than modern rifles.
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No doubt about that! Labor/maintenance intensive I'd say.
BTW, for those who might not know, Remington makes a product called Bore Squeegee. It's similar to a jag but made of rubber and the rings are further apart and slightly flexible. When using a patched jag to push water in and out I found the water saturates the patch and thus the effectiveness lessens. Yes, using multiple patches may be an alternative but I got a bore squeegee just to see if it worked. I think much less water passes it than any patched jag. The only ones I have seen are typical shotgun size and well as typical rifle size but that does include 50 and 40 cal.
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http://squeeg-e.com/home
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I've been wondering about those squeegee things. Sportsman's sells then, by caliber size, individually.
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They do look interesting!
If the squeeG lives up to the hype, there is a lot of labor to be saved.
Ron
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They do look interesting!
If the squeeG lives up to the hype, there is a lot of labor to be saved.
Ron
I guess I'm going to be one who has to see this thing work to be convinced. I don't see the advantage to something that rides on top of the lands and won't get to the bottom of groves when cleaning like a cloth patch will. Something with wide and shallow groves like a suppository gun or even a plastic Buck Rodgers ML might get reasonably clean, but I'm not buying it will do an acceptable job on a round ball barrel with deeper groves.
Mole Eyes
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Looks like the old Fisher cleaner idea. I know the BPCR people have been working with this lately. Keep in a coffee can and swab between shots, then dry patch. Should work good for loosening up stuff in those deep grooves and flushing barrel.
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I don't see them as totally effective as a patch in normal cleaning and I see no advantage for cleaning modern smokeless firearms but when it comes to pushing water or sucking it up the barrel it works better than a patch as it does not get saturated. I found it a lot neater to use that a patch as far as the water bath goes. You can pull it all the way to the muzzle and nearly no water comes out. With patches I always have a nice little puddle on the floor. With these it's just a few drops.
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I think there's more to cleaning a muzzle loading rifle barrel than just flushing it with water. I turn down my brass cleaning jags so that I can use two thicknesses of cleaning patch flannel and still have a very tight fit in the bore. I make them as tight as I can and still pull the rod out with just one hand. I want that wet cloth actually scrubbing into the bottom of the grooves and the corners too, at the same time, pumping water in and out. I place my 6" PVC cleaning pail in a large plastic tray to catch water that comes out over the top when I bring the jag to the top of the stroke, and some sometimes hits the shop floor but I could care less. When I'm cleaning in the shop, I dry the barrel by clamping it in the vise in a leather pad, so I can really get some power on the rod. In camp, I use a slightly thinner cleaning patch(s) since I have no vise.
Those rubber jags can't possibly do the scrubbing action that the double cloth patch does...IMHO. I have found a way of cleaning my barrels that preserves them from oxidation/deterioration. I am not about to risk my perfect bores on an experimental gimmick.
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My opinions on cleaning a black powder, muzzleloader bore should be weighed with the fact that I have been getting serious about this activity for only a year and have had traditional muzzleloaders for a little over 2 years.
That said, I have seen some rifles with minor, but visible pitting in the corner of the rifling grooves. These are rifles owned by people who use only patches during the flushing of the bore (and some with pinned barrels that don't get the flushing). That pitting, however minor, concerned me enough that I use nylon, pistol bore brushes to get the crud out of the corners and crevices. Of course it took me one experience with a bronze bore brush to shift to nylon only!! My dogs learned an entirely new vocabulary during that activity. :o :D The nylon bristles change direction in the bore pretty readily, so I don't have much concern with using them.
I put the nylon bore bushes in the dishwasher between each use, otherwise I am just putting crud back into a bore if I use a dirty brush.
After shooting, I put a toothpick in the touch hole, pour a water, dish detergent and Simple Green (just a few drops) mix in the barrel, let it sit for a minute or two, then remove the toothpick and run a patch up and down the bore, driving the water out the touch hole. I will add more of the mix and do that a second time until the water runs clear from the touch hole.
At home, I put the rifle in a padded carpenter's vise, add some of the mix, and use the clean nylon bore brush. The water that comes out looks dirty again. (It was tough decision getting that vise because I told my wife I have no vices. ::) )
Then I run several dry patches through and finish off with "*Fluid Film" corrosion protection on a patch and run a few more dry patches so that only a residual film is left in the bore.
Then, after all that work, I take a nap.
Ron
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I too like tepid water but on a occasion I have even gave the old girl a drink of beer when I didn't have a good water supply it all works the same a dirty job but we all have to do it. just keep it cleaned after you shoot and before it goes back on the rack I always use a light coat of gun oil to help prevent rust. but here in Idaho we have a desert like climate most of the time very low humidity not like else where less of a chance of rust forming.
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RonC, I also use a nylon brush to help get the bore clean. I run the brush up an down the barrel and then dump the debris out. Then I use tepid water with a few drops of Dawn to clean the barrel. Using that nylon brush has speeded up the cleaning and It takes me about 6 patches to clean her up. I use Barricade for short term rust protection (less than 2 weeks), for longer term I use Rig Gun Grease.
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Discussions on bore cleaning are like discussions on patch lubes. Everyone has a different take on it and nobody can convince the others that his method is best. Basically, if it works for you then you have the best approach (for yourself). In the end that's all you really need. ;)
Mole Eyes
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It seems like there are as many cleaning methods as there are shooters. Each and every one a little different.
Many claim that hot water "flash rusts" the bore. I want to know how the flash rust only appears in the bore and not on the outside of the barrel??? I've got unbrowned barrels and they don't rust on the outside either. Think about it. ???
Here's my method: To me water rusts steel. So to get the barrel as dry as possible as quick as possible. I use hot tap water. Not boiling but hot that it's uncomfortable to hold your hand in it. This will dry faster than cold water. I put dish wash in the water, and I rinse with clean water. Then I spray WD-40 in the bore and let it sit muzzle down while I attend to the lock. When I go back to the bore a dry clean patch to remove WD-40 then I oil the barrel with Rem oil. After this treatment the bore is clean and oiled.
WD-40 is not an oil it is a Water Displacement formula. It will push the water out and then dry. Then oil the bore with the oil or rust preventive of your choice. Every one has their own favorite here as well.
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OK , my turn...............
I use to use hot water and DID get the flash rust until I was schooled by some folks on this site.
First I take off the lock, remove the flint and put in a can of soapy water. I then put a toothpick in the barrel vent and fill with cool water and let it sit for about 20 minutes or so. During that time I then take the lock and scrub with a toothbrush until clean, rinse with water and put it in my toaster oven on warm for a few minutes to dry. I then oil it with Ballistol and Rig grease all the contact points. I empty the barrel and refill 2 or 3 times until the water comes out clean. I then use some soapy water and patches until clean, then I dry with a few patches. I put a shot of Ballistol in the barrel to coat the breechplug and vent area I then take a patch and use Rigs grease to coat the rest of the barrel. I install the lock and flint and then I wipe the exterior with a lightly oiled rag. She's then ready to go for next time.
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I've read numerous opinions about using animal-fat lubes, and treating the barrel like it's a cast iron frying pan, never using soap or detergent which
would remove the "seasoning" of the steel. I use cast-iron pans, and this makes sense to me. I've started to use Bore Butter, which I assume is like bear grease, only you don't have to bother any bears to get it. Would WD-40, a proven water disperser, also remove the seasoning and lead to the sort of fouling that a grease-seasoned bore would prevent? I spray my lock, once scrubbed clean in hot water, with WD-40, and use a can of compressed air that I use in the darkroom for blowing the dust off negatives. I would use WD in the bore if it won't interfere with my "cook's" seasoning of the barrel. The folks who swear by the "pan seasoning" method say that you should never use petroleum products, which they say creates fouling. There seems to be an unlimited number of opinions about this issue.
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I have heard from numerous people that don't use bore butter. Barrels are not cast iron pots and do not need seasoning, while a thin oil might impregnate the metal if soaked long enough the area between the molecules of the metal are too tight to get something like bore butter between the molecules. It will however build up and clog your bore. Water neutralizes the salts and corrosives left by burned black powder and is the main ingredient in most store bought cleaners. Barrels need to be cleaned and oiled to protect them not seasoned. I think the makers of bore butter came up with seasoning to sell product.
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Drago, do you mean to say that an American corporation would create a need for a product that's unnecessary? I'm shocked! Just like those sneaky sorts who created percussion caps so shooters would have to go to the store to get more of them. :D
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First it was caps then suppository types, now you can't shoot without stopping at wally world. Of course we all know it's best for us all. It just works out that someone makes lots of money.
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But we BP shooters aren't paying $1-$2 per shot. I figure it's less than a quarter per round--balls are about 16 cents each, powder around $16 per pound, and you get a lot of rounds out of a pound of powder. Plus, we're having more fun, shooting slowly and following an age-old tradition, one the second amendment was written for. So it's a bit messy and makes a lot of smoke--it's all fun and good.
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I'll quickly admit to being one of the least well informed about BP shooting. So at the risk of showing my lack of experience here's my conclusions thus far.
Proper cleaning requires water and some sort of detergent. To prevent rust, the bore needs to be DRY. Oil over a wet barrel won't prevent rust. That is critical, seemingly obvious but not as simple to achieve as one might think. "Flash rust". My search on this is pretty conclusive. Flash rust is a term which characterizes minor surface rust which is "quick" to form, easy to remove and has no long term effects. And it's caused by moisture (aka water). This surface rust is not the effect of hot water OR cold water but just water.
A WD type product used after cleaning can aid drying but warm sunlight on the barrel can do the same. I suspect a blast of air from your garage compressor might also contribute to drying. In fact, I'll bet there are some who actually do this but have not spoken up yet. However, moist air is not as good as dry heat.
Once you have a dry bore, any number of post cleaning products will work. Use whatever makes you happy! I agree with several who said how odd it is that we swear by specific methods and specific products. "Tried and true"....but not the only way to skin this cat.
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But we BP shooters aren't paying $1-$2 per shot. I figure it's less than a quarter per round--balls are about 16 cents each, powder around $16 per pound, and you get a lot of rounds out of a pound of powder. Plus, we're having more fun, shooting slowly and following an age-old tradition, one the second amendment was written for. So it's a bit messy and makes a lot of smoke--it's all fun and good.
Lead pipe $0.75/lb. approx. 75 .395 balls/lb = $0.01 per ball. pot and molds long time amortized.
Powder using your $16 50 gr per shot or 140 shots per lb = $0.11
Flints $2 average 100 shots = $0.02
Total $0.14 per shot. A little less than half the cost of using store bought balls and caps. Costs about $7 for me to spend a morning banging away with the .40 flinter
TC
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At the range before I leave for home I run a wet patch followed by a couple of dry patches. When I get home I do a serious cleanup, lock, stock and barrel.
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Standing Bear, I was just guessing at the cost of shooting. Now that you've shown that it's even cheaper than I thought, I'll just shoot more. Thanks!
I'll admit that I buy the swaged round balls. My dad and I used to make our own bullets and re-load, except for the military ammo we used in the M1. I don't think we ever made anything as good as the factories can, and these days I don't have the gear to melt the lead. I'm thinking of making my own flints, though, because that looks like fun.
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Unfortunately,I don't have a compressor. After thoroughly submerging my lock in a pot of cold water and brushing clean a la Daryls,on a doubled paper towel I blow the lock out with a steady stream of wd40. Let it sit a few seconds and hit it again, then wipe dry, lube and re-install. BORE CLEANING...boy do I catch a lot of flack around here how I do it. Daryls calls it the "Alternate Method", Taylor calls is it "the shitting with your pants on" method! Others have worse names.Even so,others have worse methods. I use it only because I have a pinned barrel and bolted tang.Hooked breach type I pump flush,barrel in a bucket. With a pinned custom rifle I'm paranoid of screwing up the wood pushing pins that I see double of! The pump flush method,in my humble opinion, is faster and far more thorough the SWYPO ;D method.
hahahahahahaha!
boys ' girls, there is absolutely NO reason to use soap or a detergent to clean your black powder guns - NONE/NADDA/NOPE
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Agreed. Spit or tap water
TC
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I've read numerous opinions about using animal-fat lubes, and treating the barrel like it's a cast iron frying pan, never using soap or detergent which
would remove the "seasoning" of the steel. I use cast-iron pans, and this makes sense to me. I've started to use Bore Butter, which I assume is like bear grease, only you don't have to bother any bears to get it. Would WD-40, a proven water disperser, also remove the seasoning and lead to the sort of fouling that a grease-seasoned bore would prevent? I spray my lock, once scrubbed clean in hot water, with WD-40, and use a can of compressed air that I use in the darkroom for blowing the dust off negatives. I would use WD in the bore if it won't interfere with my "cook's" seasoning of the barrel. The folks who swear by the "pan seasoning" method say that you should never use petroleum products, which they say creates fouling. There seems to be an unlimited number of opinions about this issue.
Natural lubes, Bear oil, tallow, Sperm Whale oil or Neatsfoot oil (now lard oil I have read) DO NOT build up in the bore, period, at least not with any cleaning that will clean the bore. Where this seasoning the bore drivel came from I can't recall but it did not appear until some of the commercial lubes came on the market. It will eventually effect accuracy at best and rot the bore out at worst.
In any event its SNAKE OIL salemanship.
I would also point out that BLACKPOWDER fouling's corrosive elements will easily dissolve in water. If the shooter has a pinned barrel with no hooked breech then plug the nipple/vent and pour about 6-10" of tepid water in the bore, plug with a finger or thumb and up end the gun several times then dump out the water. Wet patch with a loose fitting patch. Then repeat the slosh and dump. I do this about 3-4 times then wet patch till I am happy then dry the bore. Water will wash away the corrosive elements with the slosh and dump. Using a tight fitting patch with water in the bore will probably force water past the plug (I use a round toothpick for flint guns) or blow it out. Once I get the bore less than dripping I use tighter fitting wet patches I use a worm to the run a wet patch to the breech face and then twist it to clean the end of the bore. When the wet patches are clean the bore is clean. After maybe 2-3 dry patches I pull the plug to produce air flow to held dry the bore.
Its common as the bore drys to get black iron oxide on the patches the lubrication of the water on the wet patches prevents this. If the patches with black on them turn to red iron oxide when dry in a day or two its only iron. If grey then its powder fouling. Trying to clean the iron oxide out of a bore will drive you nuts. I pull the plug at about the 3rd dry patch and the airflow helps dry the bore.
Oil well (don't force oil out the vent though), store muzzle down over night to drain the excess oil into a folded paper towel and not into the stock. If really anal wipe it again to check. Sometimes a penetrating protectant like G-96 will pull some more oxide out as it drains unless there is a lot do not worry.
Now this process is ONLY for BP if you use some weird substitute you are on your own. Some are non-corrosive some very aggressive.
Locks I wash it water, wipe brush where needed then blow dry then oil and grease as needed. Spray bottle works good for this.
Dan
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Some 20 years ago, I was distressed at what I found when cleaning after using the main [ at the time] available substitute black powder. I wrote a letter to Sam Fadala describing my findings, which were basically this.....Clean the bore till patches come out basically white. Come back next day and get fouling/rusty patches ..clean again until white patches ...back the next day-same thing, back the next day ...same thing. I sent him a sheet of paper with the first patch of the day stapled to it. Period of time was over 5 days. Each patch had traces of fouling; even the 5th day . Anyone who uses a substitute powder should try this experiment for themselves; it is an eye opener.
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" Spit or tap water"
Wellll , so if spit is OK I take it that you might actually take a wiz down the barrel and that would work as well?
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ive used bp subs for years. Just like with black powder, if you do a $#@* job at cleaning or do not dry it out properly, its going to rust in the bore. Flash rust is what gets most folks.
rig or barricade work excellent at keeping rust away.
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Mr F. Gander, I was not insulting those who use the substitutes; merely cautioning that the cleaning regimen needs be stringent. I stress that I did get white patches from the bore..it had every indication of being clean, however coming back in a day or two, there was fouling/rust on the patch. I will try and find the letter from Sam in response.
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I mostly use Dan's cleaning method, pouring warm water down the barrel, but I let it set for a few minutes and then pour some out (toothpick in vent) and then upend the barrel back and forth to slosh the water, making sure to hit everything in reach with the buttstock and muzzle. Then I scrape the breechplug and do the water thing a few more times. I do use black powder solvent on patches, though, so do you think it's an unnecessary expense? I run patches until they come out Army clean, and then oil the barrel. Your practice of using a blow dryer on the lock works well, too, and it amuses my wife.
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I had a Renegade that would flash rust even with cold water. I cant explain it but it would form instantly upon drying the barrel with a dry patch. Very strange. To prevent this, especially with my longrifle, I use a good healthy dose of ballistol in a jug of spring water. I tooth pick the touch hole and pump the water around, dumping and refilling with fresh water and changing out the flannel patches. As I begin to get clean patches, a couple of times I will pull the tooth pick and push the the fluid filling the barrel out of the touch hole with force, wiping up any excess that might get in the lock mortise with Q tips. I also use the same solution to clean the lock with a patch and q tips. I oil with the pure form of ballistol all metal sufaces and friction points. In humid weather, the Ballistol will need a rewipe every week or two and one down the spout. Ps...I hate cleaning jags. I feel like a patch will get in the grooves better with a standard slotted brass rod tip and less time spent cleaning. Do NOT use plastic tips, as they will break off at inopportune times snd will render your ramrod useless as a wiping tool untill you drill out the plastic. A good lube like LHV lube(Mr. FLINTLOCKS) seems to make cleanup so much easier overall.
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Mr F. Gander, I was not insulting those who use the substitutes; merely cautioning that the cleaning regimen needs be stringent. I stress that I did get white patches from the bore..it had every indication of being clean, however coming back in a day or two, there was fouling/rust on the patch. I will try and find the letter from Sam in response.
I just deleted a long post. It was basically a recap of what I have posted in the past. I was told about this stuff 30 odd years ago by an expert in the field of BP and everything he told me then and predicted has come true and none of it is desirable. I used it in company guns for testing enough to prove to me that I would never use it in my guns and have actually flushed the stuff when I won it as a prize at a match. Could not even give it away in good conscience.
Everything I have posted on the subject is actual observation over the years or that of people I trust. Its not guess work or animosity.
Dan
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Hey Dan, dump it in the garden next time. Makes pretty good fertilizer.
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Here's my favorite method. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24312.0
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WD-40 and compressed air--just as the Minutemen cleaned their muskets. Yup.
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that TOW is some good stuff, I enjoy swabbing with it. Now if only Nate could tell me where he got that rough cut log siding and the stain used, I'd be set! ;D
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Its not siding. Its the real McCoy on our rough-cut log home. The stain is a preservative and the color is called honey. Its about 25 years old now.
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...I don't think we ever made anything as good as the factories can
... I'm thinking of making my own flints, though, because that looks like fun.
Not hard to make something better than factories, not easy to do it faster.
"PaleomanJim" of youtube makes flint knapping look silly easy*. I just don't have the right rocks for it, not yet....
*Just checked, he has new beginner series up. Oh no.
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Guys,
Now for my two cents. This applies to wrought iron barrels, steel barrels are significantly different in the way they should be treated.
1. Wrought iron is really quite corrosion resistant, so you do not get that bright orange "surprise". This is especially true when water is in contact with wrought iron. When doing visitor show-n-tells I just leave the rifling machine with barrel outside where it almost always gets wet from rain or dew - and no rust forms on the wrought iron (no orange surprise).
2. Wrought iron is a bit porous as compared to steel. Wrought iron is a physical combination of pure iron and a silica slag, the slag is present in very thin filaments and are often difficult to see in good refined iron. But, this makes the surface porous, at least slightly so and it gives black powder residue lots of hiding places.
3. After shooting a wrought iron barrel I clean with water as many above have noted, until I get a resulting white patch and follow with oiled patches. However, the next day and many following days a re-clean with an oiled patch and still remove some BP residue that apparently migrates out of the porosity. This is dark colored, never orange rust colored.
4. So, cleaning a real wrought iron barrel is about a week long process. While cleaning a modern steel barrel can be done in a much shorter time.
Jim
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Much after-rust and after-fouling comes out of, I imagine, the new 'pores' left by black powder substitutes, in steel barrels.
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nothing gets more chatter, and heated opinions, from muzzleloaders than how tubes need to be cleaned, and when.
to each their own, here's my views on what works for me ...
i almost never use plain water, whether hot, warm or cold.
i use dry "dutch" lube formula patch material, cut to size at the muzzle. i clear out the barrel on every 1 to 2 firings with a dutch moose milk (dmm) *moistened* (not wet) patch, in and out the tube.
after a shooting session, liberal use of dmm to clean the tube, vent and lock (barrel not removed, lock removed).
the details ...
DUTCH LUBE - for pre-lubing patches
**********
6 parts of water and 1 part of Ballistol (the percentage of water can be modified up or down as need be)
patch strips are about 1.5" x 18" long, 100% cotton or linen only, sized to work well with the ball diameter in use
Dutch Lube directions - lay the strips of cloth into the Dutch Lube, swirl around and allow a few minutes to fully saturate, lift up one strip at a time and use two fingers of your hand to compress the cloth as you pull through which will remove all the excess lube, lay the strips down FLAT to dry off ... the water will evaporate but the oil will remain in the cloth ... the cured patch cloth will feel totally dry to the touch!
sizing of the lubed patch and ball diameter is critical and requires some testing for best fit/accuracy.
DUTCH MOOSE MILK - for cleaning out the barrel after shooting black powder - after each shot and after a shooting session
****************
1 part Ballistol
1 part Lestoil or Pinesol
2 parts hydrogen peroxide
20 parts water
Moose Milk usage -
1. Between Every Shot - lightly saturate a patch, it should not be wet, just damp, and run it down and up the barrel only ONCE. Clean the pan and touch hole. Reload.
2. After Every Shooting Session - run wet patches down the barrel until they come relatively "clean", run down a few dry patches, last patch should be saturated with WD-40, and leave that patch/ramrod down the barrel. Remove the lock and clean with Moose Milk, dry off the lock, re-install. check the patch after a day or two.
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I am from the cold water school of cleaning to,it works ,period...I have ML barrels that are several years old that have no rust or pitting in them...I always follow up with WD40 to
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Didja ever do an ex spear mint?
Well i just did.
Seeing as how my notion of "pre-cut" patches is re-shooting recovered cut-at-muzzle patches.
And seeing as how i just pulled one of them dryball thingies and had a nice cut patch there all crusty with crud-which would be re-loaded to be shot properly at least once!
I just
experimented with some of the notions presented in this thread.
I took that gnasty patch and soaked it in water-warm as there is no metal involved and i wanted maximum h2o action. Then i swished and washed it around, cleaning it in that puddle of water. The water got a little gray.
I then (without changing the water) added a dash of popular (4-letter word) dish liquid to see if the water would darken any further (evidence of more cleaning). none.
I then soaked the patch with a moose milk recipe (not sure which one, smells like a pine tree-i made it years ago and i am a DSchultz pamphlet owner). no change. none.
So then therefore I'll stick to my linen tow and water cleaning followed by water displacement with that popular water displacement oil and then real oil if I'm not going out again next day or two. I do like to re-wipe for a day or two.
Conclusion: soap don't help clean a pulled patch (db after 16 shots-no wiping) whatsoever, so therefore I'll just use it for hands and dishes and the dogs and won't waste any more in a bbl.
Once again,
Daryl was right. ;)
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Thanks, Wade, but I would phrase that differently by saying that that 150 year old British Gun Maker, Holland and Holland, was right.
I was merely the messenger of what they taught us in a note to my double gun collector friend, back in the late 70's.
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An endless thread it seems. So I did my own experiment and submit it was much more scientific that the one above. I took 4 patches recovered from the ground after shooting the same gun, same loads. I put about 1 cup of water in four different containers. One was pure "cold water", one warm water, one cold with a small dash of detergent and the last was warm with a small dash of detergent. Into each went a patch. No "washing action" of any kind for maybe an hour, then each container was simply swirled around. Guess which showed almost NO sign of "dirty" water? The cold, no detergent one! Guess which showed the most dirty water? Warm with detergent one. Furthermore, the patches in water with no detergent were suspended just below the surface while the ones with detergent were on the bottom of the container. THAT is clear evidence that the oil on the patch was not "cleaned" by water along and thus was more buoyant than the patches which were in the detergent water. Now, like another said, do whatever makes YOUR socks go up and down but as for me, I will use a small amount of detergent. Can you get them clean with water only? Probably but it might take longer. BTW, I doubt it matters as to cold, warm or hot water but the use of a detergent seems to be obviously beneficial.
OH, BTW, when you are done cleaning you gun, do you use "soap" and water to clean your hands? Or just water only! I see, soap and water...hummmm.
And I'll add just one more small thing. The water in the containers with detergent discolored almost immediately and never seemed to show evidence that more dirt was coming out of the patch over time. The effect of the detergent was immediate and all the cleaning that was done was probably achieved in the first few seconds of the patch being placed in the water.
So, I just wonder what Holland and Holland might have told us if they would have had modern day detergent 150 years ago?
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Just another point I have noted on bore cleaning. In the beginning I did not scrape the breech. On the last few outings I have scraped it just before the cleaning begins. Seems to always be a small amount of fouling that I get out. I suspect that given the nature of a jag's end just running a patched jag down will tend to leave a little debris in place, so probably a good idea to scrape it?
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I make my own soap so it doesn't count. Don't assume.
Also i never expected water only to clean oily anything, only the residue of powder. I trust the tow to clean the breechface, it is not like a patched jag.
Thanks for sharing your egg spearmint. ;)
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Thanks, Wade, but I would phrase that differently by saying that that 150 year old British Gun Maker, Holland and Holland, was right.
I was merely the messenger of what they taught us in a note to my double gun collector friend, back in the late 70's.
Nothing new under the sun. Certainly pass credit back up the line as far as we are able to remember to ...now what was it we were remembering?
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An endless thread it seems. So I did my own experiment and submit it was much more scientific that the one above. I took 4 patches recovered from the ground after shooting the same gun, same loads. I put about 1 cup of water in four different containers. One was pure "cold water", one warm water, one cold with a small dash of detergent and the last was warm with a small dash of detergent. Into each went a patch. No "washing action" of any kind for maybe an hour, then each container was simply swirled around. Guess which showed almost NO sign of "dirty" water? The cold, no detergent one! Guess which showed the most dirty water? Warm with detergent one. Furthermore, the patches in water with no detergent were suspended just below the surface while the ones with detergent were on the bottom of the container. THAT is clear evidence that the oil on the patch was not "cleaned" by water along and thus was more buoyant than the patches which were in the detergent water. Now, like another said, do whatever makes YOUR socks go up and down but as for me, I will use a small amount of detergent. Can you get them clean with water only? Probably but it might take longer. BTW, I doubt it matters as to cold, warm or hot water but the use of a detergent seems to be obviously beneficial.
OH, BTW, when you are done cleaning you gun, do you use "soap" and water to clean your hands? Or just water only! I see, soap and water...hummmm.
And I'll add just one more small thing. The water in the containers with detergent discolored almost immediately and never seemed to show evidence that more dirt was coming out of the patch over time. The effect of the detergent was immediate and all the cleaning that was done was probably achieved in the first few seconds of the patch being placed in the water.
So, I just wonder what Holland and Holland might have told us if they would have had modern day detergent 150 years ago?
No one ever said for you to use straight water for cleaning oily patches, any more than saying to use straight water for cleaning your hands.
Your test is about as useful in this discussion as saying to use water instead of oil in your crankcase to keep your engine cool- yes- just as useful.
When Holland and Holland sent that letter to my friend in the late 1970's I suspect they had detergents and soaps available - what they were concerned about was cleaning barrels of black powder fouling, not washing their hands that were soiled with oil and grease. They were concerned about the flash rusting that happens when hot water and soaps are used to clean black powder fouled bores - their rifles are not the cheap rifles of today being used by ANYONE here - they were fearful for maintaining the excellent condition of the $20,000.00 to $80,000 dollar rifles and shotguns that my friend was shooting - God (and the mfgr's) only know what chemicals are in today's Detergents. If you guys are foolish enough to put that $#*& in your barrels - go for it - you deserve the consequences.
Another thing - when I clean my black powder rifle barrels, there is no more fouling to get out of them - there is no after rust, there is no fouling on the breech plug's face, in the caplock flash channel nor in the vent of the flinters - NO fouling left - anywhere. I use only cool or cold tap water for cleaning - no soaps, no solvents and I use only WD40 as an after flush and rust preventative - no rust - in our 50% average humidity climate here in B.C. I use this system after shooting with WWWF + neetsfoot oil, I use it after shooting with neetsfoot oiled patches and I use it after shooting with Track's mink oil. lubed patches - no fouling left - EVER and hasn't been since I stated this regime in 1977. HOEWEVER - prior to that, I used hot water with detergents or soap and I got flash rusting - and I got after rust in my TC rifle and some of Bauska's barrels that I was using. After reading that letter from H&H and switching to their methods of cleaning, which by the way was the easiest and quickest of all ways to clean my barrels and guns, I never - EVER got any more flash rusting nor rusting of any sort. Gee- maybe that company actually knows more than brooktrout?? do ya think?
Cleaning an oiled patch is not the same bloody thing as cleaning a black powder fouled bore - even if that barrel was fired with oiled patches - obviously - cannot be, or plain water would not have cleaned them so well - for centuries. DOH! to coin a phrase.
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Always liked them Holland ampersand Holland boys. ;)
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Notice: Not many gunbuilders or barrel makers are chiming in here. Go ahead and use soap and hot water. It feeds these guys! lmao!
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My thoughts about using soap in the cleaning water is that the soap has a bunch of stuff that will cause your barrel harm, water does not and will clean just as good. Use a WD40 product after your done whichever method you use. I have had the same experiences with flash rusting as Daryl and havent had any more since I switched to cold or cool plain water. Some people seem to over do something that is realy quite simple. The old ways are the best ways IMHO.
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So enlighten me grouch. What EXACTLY is in liquid detergent (NOT soap) that will cause your barrel harm. Very interested in that as I sort of feel that what's in black powder after ignition has a greater tendency to cause your barrel harm.
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One word,Brooky: SALT.
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I think whats in the residue after you shoot real black is why we clean with plain water as plain water will clean without adding any more harmfull elements to the barrel. My opiion is that soap will add those elements that will need to be flushed out so you in fact have to clean your barrel of the black powder and soap residue. What those elements are will vary I supose with what soap you use. I am not a chemist but have read of some of the things used in the soap making process like lye for one and this makes me uneasy to use in my barrel when I have plain water that will do the job now just as it has done for ever. I dont need new and improved when I have old and reliable.
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Well, like I clearly said (but not specifically in this fashion)...whatever you are happy with and works for you! But liquid detergent does not contain lye as in the compound used in old time soap making.
As to "SALT". If by "salt" you mean NaCl. I suppose it may exist in liquid detergent.
BUT here is a BIG part of the picture. The primary chemicals which are dissolved in H20 are:
Na (+ion), Cl (- ion), K (+ ion), Mg (+2) and Ca also (+2)
Given this, the reality is that Na and Cl can combine and thus you have NaCl ! So "Salt" is also in your regular ole water.
The primary ingredient in liquid detergent is phosphate (PO4/3) and chemically speaking it is a "salt". "Detergent" (products in question) basically works through the use of cationic, anionic and non-ionic reactions. Negative and positive ions attracting other negative and positive ions and suspended in a non-ionic element. In other words....it's magic! (CVA has a "new" cleaning agent which uses this ionic approach and no "water" is used in the cleaning process at all.)
I don't know the chemical formula of "Dawn" but I'll venture that there is nothing in it that is worse for the barrel than the "mineral salts" in water. It is those compounds that contribute to "oxidization". And that's what causes rust.
Now, Mr. grouch does have a good point. You do not want to leave bubbles in your barrel so following the use of any detergent it would still require a clear water flush. Extra step? Maybe but the question to me is how many clear water flushes are required to remove the same amount of fouling that can be removed with maybe a single "soapy" cleaning.
While I have only been shooting BP for a short time I can tell you that I have done a powerful lot of cleaning in that time. "Easy" is not my goal. Effective is! I will continue to try different approaches but in the end what yields a clean bore and stays rust free is what I seek. Right now, I like the bubbles! And just a PS for my pal Daryl. The ionic approach to cleaning is a product of the 80's and it was NOT quickly accepted by the industry until some time in the late 80's. Also, Daryl, those patches I experimented with were recovered after firing so they contained all the bad stuff that was also in the barrel not just "oily patches". I think what several people are missing is that I will admit that I don't hold any approach as sacred. And I am open to considering anything (except moose milk)! Comments are welcomed but spare me the lectures.
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Just an observation.
I haven't seen anyone mention a clean water rinse for their bore after their initial cleaning. I am a firm believer in using warm water with soap to clean my barrel. But I also do a clean water rinse after the initial wash.
After the bore is dry using several patches. I spray a liberal amount of water displacement formula into the bore and let it sit for a while muzzle down, while I clean the lock. I finish it with another dry patch or two to remove the WD-40 and then good gun oil to finish.
After living in the humid New England sea coast area, and now in the Hot-N-Humid Southeast. Never had a rusty barrel in 40 years of shooting these rifles.
I think I'll keep doing it my way. Thank you! ;D
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Brooktrout, you have your cleaning method that seems to work for you and I must say many others too. Lots of different ways to do this and if it works for you, great. I post were , I hope, meant to inform others of how I have done it with outstanding results since the 60s. Mr. Holland seems to have endorsed the same method. If you take any of this as an lecture, you are reading it wrong. Best wishes. ;D
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I wanted to try Moose Milk in my flinter, but I couldn't get the moose to stand still long enough. Cold water will have to do.
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One other thing to try even with your cleaning regimen is after you run your dry patches down squirt some WD-40 into the bore and some on a patch and run it back and forth. Then use your oil. When I do this after using hot water I'll swear I can go back 2 weeks later and run a patch down the barrel and it comes out clean as a whistle. My buddies who only oil after using hot water has rust on their patches bad. I'm about to talk them into using WD-40 as I believe it gets out the final bit of water that you think is out of there but is not. But then again I use either CLP or Mobil 1 to oil with and maybe that is why I don't get rust.
Bb
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I use cool or warm water, and then dry the bore. A squirt of WD 40 on a patch to wipe the bore and then a patch with bear oil. No rust after 1000's of rounds in every kind of weather you can think of.
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One other thing to try even with your cleaning regimen is after you run your dry patches down squirt some WD-40 into the bore and some on a patch and run it back and forth. Then use your oil. ...
Bb
That is exactly the best use for Water Displacement formula #40. It used to be good for starting engines, but they took most of the fire out of it.
I spray it liberally into the bore, smear it around with tow, and place gun muzzle down for a few hours or overnight before re-wiping and oiling proper.
Beginning to really like the tow. Keep re-using the same bits. Easy to clean and dry and reuse. Don't even know where the jag made off too. Will never miss cutting cleaning patches.
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For me, after cleaning I dry the bore until dry and wipe out the clean-out plug with a half piece of a pipe cleaner . Then I wipe out the nipple seat hole with a small piece of twisted paper towel until dry. I then flush the bore with industrial grade 99% pure isopropyl alcohol since I have an unending supply which I aquire from a cousin of mine. I then repeat the process of drying the bore and clean-out and nipple seat. After getting everything totally dry, I apply liberally ballistol to the bore until it runs out the nipple hole and clean-out screw and on all parts on the outside of the rifle, if I plan on using the gun in the next week or two. If planning on possibly storing my gun long term I use Rig instead. Never had a problem.
topknot
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Anyone use or try plain ole rubbing alcohol?
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Have read all these comments and am amazed at how difficult we can make things. Seems like we overthink everything. I have been shooting and cleaning blackpowder guns since the late 60's. Hot water is the way to go, no soap or detergents. Hot water aids in drying the barrel. I used to put the barrel in the bathtub. Rinse the barrel with hot tap water while filling the tub with enough water to cover the barrel. Swab with a patch or swab until clean. Barrel will be hot to the touch and will dry quickly. If you are concerned about moisture you can run an alchohol soaked patch down the bore and this will insure it is dry. The alchohol helps evaporate any remaining moisture. If using a pinned barrel just fill the barrel part way with water and slosh around then swab. I have also used the bucket and swab method which works just as well.
I have worked in water treatment for over 30 years and I can tell you there are not enough salts in tap water to cause any harm to a gun barrel. Well water has the same salts and minerals as city water. Hot water actually has less salts because heated water drops some of the dissolved minerals from the water, that's why you have junk in the bottom of your water heater. Spring water, well water, creek water or tap water, it doesn't matter.
Get it hot, get it clean, get it dry and use some type of oil to seal out the moisture for storage. It's that simple.
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Yep every one is making this to hard and complicated. Touch hole plugged with a toothpick shot of soapy water (about enough to cover powder fowling in bottom of bore) let it sit for a few minutes. Finger over muzzle slosh mixture up and down bore by tipping muzzle down. Pour the crud out. Tak toothpick out. Put rag or paper towel under cock next to touchhole. Wet patch with soapy water wipe bore. Follow with clean patch. Dry bore and oil with your favorite oil. Take lock out clean and oil put back in rifle. A day or two later check bore with an oily patch. Finished. Takes longer to type than it does to clean a flint rifle.
If you worry about leaking toothpicks put a rag or paper towel around and under toothpick while rifle is soaking. Worried about rust a little water soluble machinist oil in cleaning mixture will help. I don't put it in my solution as I have no rust. One rifle I shoot a lot had the end of the breech plug shined to a mirror finish. After 28 yrs and lots of shooting and cleaning gleams like a cat eye when the rifle is clean. Tim
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I wanted to try Moose Milk in my flinter, but I couldn't get the moose to stand still long enough. Cold water will have to do.
The bulls don't like that!
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... Well water has the same salts and minerals as city water...
Not in this zip code. I know where sulphur wells (that's a mineral right?) are common and sometimes strong enough to destroy consumer electronics with corrosion just from sharing the same air. Ate copper pipes from the inside. Always had a bigger big-screen than last year, extended warranties always a value for him.
just sayin'. ;)
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So enlighten me grouch. What EXACTLY is in liquid detergent (NOT soap) that will cause your barrel harm. Very interested in that as I sort of feel that what's in black powder after ignition has a greater tendency to cause your barrel harm.
This may not be exactly true. BP fouling sucks up water like a sponge, this is how it causes corrosion. As a result its very easy to dissolve and wash away with water. Most detergents, like Dawn, contain salt in the form of sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) and sodium laureth sulfate (SLES). Sodium salt.
Since it does not make the barrel cleaner I see no point.
BTW my hands are not made of steel. They also often have things on them that are not water soluble. Like oil or grease. So I use a hand cleaner with grit when they are really dirty. Not something I would use on a barrel.
Dan
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Brooktrout.
If CVAs "Barrel Blaster" cleaning stuff with all that "gee whiz" inoic (or whatever) stuff is what is being called "water free", the MSDS says >89% water.
There are some modern bore solvents like Hoppes #9 or #9 Benchrest for modern firearms and these also contain water since they have alcohol in them and alcohol will pull water from the air if I am properly informed. Small amount but there. I have even found that plain old water will even pull carbon out of modern brass suppository barrels if poured through then wiped but the stuff is not all that water soluble being "smokeless" fouling.
BTW I started shooting MLs about 1964-65. I have worked professionally in the BP firearms industry in various capacities and shot a LOT with BP. I suspect I have MLs older than you are and the barrels are not pitted or rusty. I am SURE I have a Douglas barrel in the shop that is older since I built a rifle around it in 1968. There are people here with more experience than I for sure. Most of us have already done the things you are so proud of and more having been buying and trying various things for decades finding no actual benefit over water. In other words this is not our first Rodeo. So when you start giving people with 30-50 years experience with a multitude of BP firearms "lessons" on how to "really" clean a barrel, they may not be as impressed as you might wish.
Dan
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One other thing to try even with your cleaning regimen is after you run your dry patches down squirt some WD-40 into the bore and some on a patch and run it back and forth. Then use your oil. When I do this after using hot water I'll swear I can go back 2 weeks later and run a patch down the barrel and it comes out clean as a whistle. My buddies who only oil after using hot water has rust on their patches bad. I'm about to talk them into using WD-40 as I believe it gets out the final bit of water that you think is out of there but is not. But then again I use either CLP or Mobil 1 to oil with and maybe that is why I don't get rust.
Bb
This is only advisable if the bore really is dry otherwise there will likely be rusting. I would never put WD40 in a bore and then not stand the gun muzzle down for several hours. Getting these penetrating oils in the wood is not a good idea and if standing muzzle up it will run into the stock unless the vent/nipple is sealed.
Dan
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I have an ultrasonic cleaner that I use to clean casings for reloading and also gun parts. Of course the cleaned parts are treated with corrosion protectants and lubed where necessary.
What are your thoughts on using the ultrasonic cleaner on locks? After thorough cleaning, the locks would be treated with anticorrosives as above.
It is hard to get into the spaces between the springs and small parts of the lock. Ultrasonic cleaning would seem the tool for that.
Thanks,
Ron
I have an US unit I use on brass suppositories and some modern handgun parts to remove carbon and such. Not worth the trouble for ML locks IMO.
Dan
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Brooktrout.
If CVAs "Barrel Blaster" cleaning stuff with all that "gee whiz" inoic (or whatever) stuff is what is being called "water free", the MSDS says >89% water.
There are some modern bore solvents like Hoppes #9 or #9 Benchrest for modern firearms and these also contain water since they have alcohol in them and alcohol will pull water from the air if I am properly informed. Small amount but there. I have even found that plain old water will even pull carbon out of modern brass suppository barrels if poured through then wiped but the stuff is not all that water soluble being "smokeless" fouling.
BTW I started shooting MLs about 1964-65. I have worked professionally in the BP firearms industry in various capacities and shot a LOT with BP. I suspect I have MLs older than you are and the barrels are not pitted or rusty. I am SURE I have a Douglas barrel in the shop that is older since I built a rifle around it in 1968. There are people here with more experience than I for sure. Most of us have already done the things you are so proud of and more having been buying and trying various things for decades finding no actual benefit over water. In other words this is not our first Rodeo. So when you start giving people with 30-50 years experience with a multitude of BP firearms "lessons" on how to "really" clean a barrel, they may not be as impressed as you might wish.
Dan
Well said Dan, I totally agree with your statement. Some dont realize that some of the older buckskinners have already ".been there and did that".
topknot
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We all have lots of opinions....much like we have elbows. Here is a site that has some field experiment results that are hard to overlook..... take look at the use of Balistol as a rust inhibitor for example, compared to other lubes..........
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion.html (http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion.html)
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html (http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html)
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments.html (http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments.html)
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This is only advisable if the bore really is dry otherwise there will likely be rusting. I would never put WD40 in a bore and then not stand the gun muzzle down for several hours. Getting these penetrating oils in the wood is not a good idea and if standing muzzle up it will run into the stock unless the vent/nipple is sealed.
Dan
Good Point, Dan.
We- Taylor and I store ALL of our ML rifles, muzzle down - we both use profuse amounts of WD40 to flush the bore after cleaning and drying (liberally runs out the vent) and spray the locks all over. Before reinstalling the locks are blown off with compressed air, wiped, re-oiled or greased and reinstalled.
Barrels are patched out by blasting the excess WD40 out the vent, wiped inside and out then reinstalled. The the guns are stored muzzle down. There is no wood damage, and the bores are protected until used next time - whether it is next week, or 4 years from now. No rust and if you run a patch down the bore and out- it is clean. Re-oil and again store muzzle down.
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OR if you have 30-50 years of experience and offer sound advice and get an argument back in return.
Bob Roller
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"This may not be exactly true. BP fouling sucks up water like a sponge, this is how it causes corrosion. As a result its very easy to dissolve and wash away with water. Most detergents, like Dawn, contain salt in the form of sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) and sodium laureth sulfate (SLES). Sodium salt.
Since it does not make the barrel cleaner I see no point.
BTW my hands are not made of steel. They also often have things on them that are not water soluble. Like oil or grease. So I use a hand cleaner with grit when they are really dirty. Not something I would use on a barrel.
Dan"
Dan,
Sodium Lauryl sulfate and Sodium Laureth Sulfate are not really salts simply because they contain sodium. The chemical formulas show them to be organic compounds with a terminal negative charge that attracts sodium (CH₃(CH₂)₁₁OSO₃Na). All those C's are carbon and the H's are hydrogen, and that is what makes up an hydrocarbon organic compound. The important thing is that they are organics, not salts, and play little to no part in corrosion. The uncharged end picks up "dirt" and the charged end lets it dissolve in water. The dirt in this case is carbon from shooting black powder. Then the "dirt," sodium lauryl sulfate and water go down the drain together.
My guess, and a guess it is, is that water alone picks up most of the carbon particles from the black powder burn through physical sloshing and agitation, then carries it out of the bore. Carbon is only sparingly soluble in water. The SLS detergent actually solubilizes some of the carbon that is not picked up and sloshed out of the bore by water alone and you end up with a cleaner bore.
There are some ways in which residual ions from black powder could tie up the charged end of the SLS and it would no longer go into solution in the water and it would leave a film - the analog to the famous household disaster mentioned in detergent adds in the 1980s: Ring around the collar. :o
I am no where near as experienced with black powder as most of you, but I haven't noticed any deposits in my bores.
And, as some already have said, we really can over think this topic. Thank goodness I am not guilty of that. ;D ;)
Ron
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LOL
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OR if you have 30-50 years of experience and offer sound advice and get an argument back in return.
Bob Roller
I guess he didn't like our advise? Ah $#@*, I only got 26 years with black,sorry. Has he left the building?
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Some questions are asked for CONFIRMATION and some for CONFRONTATION... Some are neither ,just statements based of Experience..
Grain for my horses and Snickers for my men!!!!!