AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Natureboy on June 24, 2014, 12:17:32 AM
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I've been reading some old posts on this forum about accidents happening with black powder, and the one which troubles me is about an triple-loaded
gun which went off when someone tried to pull a ball without soaking the powder first, and it apparently went off when he rammed it hard with the puller. This got me to thinking about some shooters' habit of throwing the ramrod down onto the rammed charge a number of times, getting it to go ping ping ping. I think this is unwise because it would tend to deform the ball, resulting in loss of accuracy. But is there also a chance of the load going off from the compression caused by hammering the load so forcefully? I see a number of shooters doing this at the loading table of my BP club, and it sort of scares me. I mark my ramrod so I know the ball is correctly seated, and never give it any additional shock after that. With a flinter, it might be best to not compress the powder that much anyway, so ignition is more thorough. I feel like standing far away from the guys who hammer their balls.
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Way back in the early 70s, I toured the Petersburg VA battlefield. A park ranger was demonstrating loading and firing a CW era musket. He was throwing the ramrod down the barrel as you describe (although obviously with only a powder charge and paper wad down the bore - no projectile). The reason he was throwing the rod was that the previous week, another ranger doing the same demo was pushing the rod down when something ignited the charge and launched the ramrod skyward through his fingers. They decided that
it was safer to throw the rod so that when the ramrod head made contact with the powder their fingers would be below the muzzle and out of harm's way.
While no unexpected discharge is good, I'd think a hot spark down bore would have more likelihood of being the cause than bouncing a ramrod.
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I've heard of an other old tradition of using your pinky finger to ram, so it the gun discharges you only lose your little finger. Back when I was shooting ML cannons with a civil war unit, we thought that ramming the load really hard would make it louder, only to find out a few years later that we were lucky to not have an unpleasant accident. We always sponged the bore, of course, after worming any cartridge remnants out, but we were probably fortunate. We also failed to "thumb" the vent when putting in the sponge, which would prevent a rush of air to fan any embers in the vent, and also should have poured a little water down the vent when the sponge was pulled out. With 1.5 pounds of powder in a 4" gun, unpleasant things could happen.
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Compressed loads are common in black powder cartridges. If the pressure from seating a bullet on a case full of powder in a loading press does not set it off a ramrod is not likely to cause ignition. I am not sure what pressure would cause black powder ignition, but loading is not likely to get you there.
I am not saying that guns will not go off when being loaded but the cause is more likely some other mistake.
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Push the wiping stick down in firm ,even strokes until the ball is seated on the powder. That is all that is required. You don't need to "hammer" it or overly compress it for good accuracy. Loading from the muzzle , the barrel itself behaves as a "drop tube" which helps settle the powder. Even when loading my 45-100 2.6 in Sharps cartridges, after using an 18 in drop tube, I only compressed the charge an 1/8 of an inch when inserting the wad. My .54 target rifle [ round ball] in testing, did not benefit from overly compressing the charge...putting one's weight onto the rod etc.
Having said that, I personally do not believe that impact alone will ignite B.P. A source of heat or spark is necessary, which can come from either residuals in a barrel, or perhaps the rod itself if steel is used. Other opinions may vary. ;)
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I agree with Bob on this. All points!
No one will ever gain anything by bouncing the ramrod off the ball. Seat your patch and ball on top of your charge with equal pressure each time and be done with it. You'll be a lot more accurate then trying to churn butter in that bore, and you will have the appearance of others knowing that you know what you're doing. Bouncing a ramrod down on the ball - just ridiculous.
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I've heard it said it's to be sure the ball is fully seated. Why not just mark your ramrod?
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My friend was the guy that had the triple charged rifle go off while trying to screw in the ramrod to pull the ball. The only thing we could attribute that charge's ignition to was percussion which made little sense as the 1st load would have received a tremendous blow by the 2d charge firing. The only charge that could have had a spark remaining was the first one loaded and it stayed in the gun. The last charge and ball loaded had been pulled. I would like to find a better explanation for the accident but we have never been able to come to a good conclusion. The powder being used was not GOEX or one of the usual brands. My friend was not properly schooled on black powder and muzzle loaders and had accepted a black powder donation for the large event he was trying to run. I think what he had gotten a hold of was probably mining powder or possibly some old military cannon powder. They had destroyed the rest of it and the cloth container it was contained in so there was no way to further identify the stuff. It had functioned marginally in the guns earlier and looked/smelled like black powder smoke according to the witnesses. If you have other ideas I would be glad to read them.
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Gents, a chap shooting at the Australian Black Powder Nationals here in Perth WA removed his thumb when ramming a bullet home in this Parker Hale .451 Volunteer. The incident still has all concerned mystified. The only thought is maybe the bore solvent may have dieseled and set the charge off that way.
I use a range rod, which has a brass door knob and slightly compress the load in my Enfields, my long guns I just seat to a mark on the ram rod. I give a couple of light taps with the service ram rod when in the field shooting rifled muskets
cheers
gordon
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My friend had about 1/4 in of coked up fouling at the breach of his rifle, which he only discovered because the gun wouldn't fire [ passage from the nipple was blocked] This stuff can hold a spark, similar to your flint and steel "char"
Also, I am alway suspect of the cap residue in these guns. There is always a reason that a gun fires..they don't just "go off"
Ie the last post concerning the powder- not GOEX, but some " unknown" "black" powder! This is one of the safest sports/activities you can participate in. Just know what you are doing and know what you are using, and think about each step of loading. I maintain that B.P. needs a source of heat/spark to ignite.
The story concerning the use of Pyrodex preformed loads is another example. P. success was based on it's "safety" over black; requiring a higher temp. to ignite. I have seen many more delayed firings at the range by those who use the stuff.
It scares me. Dump in your charge , and it could be cooking while you are loading the ball.
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Jerrry, i think you have you answer
"My friend was not properly schooled on black powder and muzzle loaders and had accepted a black powder donation for the large event he was trying to run. I think what he had gotten a hold of was probably mining powder or possibly some old military cannon powder. They had destroyed the rest of it and the cloth container it was contained in so there was no way to further identify the stuff. "
heinz
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Gordon, percussion rifles with snail patent breeches, which I believe the Parker Hale has, have all sorts of nooks and grannies between the bore breech and the nipple to hold onto hot bits of fouling or cap metal. For those who don't blow down the barrel (joke ) wiping between shots with a damp parch is a good idea. This is another indication that God does not favor cap locks.
heinz
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My personal opinion is that Gordon is touching on the real problem. Dieseling is real. Range rods, metal rods, weirdo plastic rods, and oversize wooden loading rods, all make this more likely. When I am on the range, and observe a shooter with any of these rods, loading with one swift stroke, I run like my hairs on fire. I think that some patch lube formulas may lend themselves to this more than others as well. I won't shoot around anybody that uses a hammer to get that ultimate tight patch ball combination down bore either, for the same reason.
Hungry Horse
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Using black powder is safer than golf those most don't believe it. As long as one doesn't get in a hurry, smoke, become distracted or forgets basic safety, shooting black is about as safe as it gets.
Many of the "gun just went off" incidents have a real cause, touched trigger, cocked, cap on nipple, over charging or something really stupid. Most of us have had our own little "incidents", maybe "tattooing", or even a broken ramrod in the hand but the serious ones are still uncommon. We who have much experience know the rules and have common sense. But occasionally we all slip up a bit. The horror stories that are spread around are quite rare - which is amazing considering some of the idiots that "give it a try" who can't be trusted with anything sharp much less a firearm - and this rarity puts them in the spotlight. Our hobby and our supplies are quite safe.
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Monkey see Monkey do.
Natureboy, keep reading and learn who knows what they are talking about and ignore the rest.
There are a lot of folks simply repeating what they hear and what they see, don't mimic them unless the practice is obviously correct. When something doesn't sound right, look to find sound verifiable expert opinions on the subject. (This is the right place.)
Then get confirmation, from another expert. Learn to differentiate: experts from the actual applied field, experts of theory (those who read more than they do), and idiots who are really lucky most of the time.
I won't touch the "ignition" question that this thread has deviated into (covered that in a thread long ago), but will say, with regard to the OP, that my ball starter has a shallow hole in the handle that goes atop the loading rod for a one single final tamp of the load each and every time. I learned this technique from a few expert shooter members here.
Accuracy demands consistent compression of the load. (all powders, all theories, ever)
Keep reading, keep learning, keep away from those who are unsafe (and try to educate them if you can, but don't expect much). Public ranges are about the scariest places I've ever been.
This sport is as safe as fishing, at least!
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This sport is as safe as fishing, at least!
Actually it is much safer. Fishing can make you drunk.
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I agree that dangers are wildly exagerated. Much of the concearns are based on wives tales. The static electricity "issue" comes to mind. When they are repeated it gives fuel to politicians to restrict our hobby. For instance in California you can only keep one pound of black on hand. Gasoline is a far greater storage hazard, but our hobby gets attacked, not lawn mowers. I would bet than the chance ofinjury on the drive to and from the range is hundreds of times greater than an injury from shooting BP. Lets try to keep things inperspective.
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This sport is as safe as fishing, at least!
Actually it is much safer. Fishing can make you drunk.
So does playing World of Tanks - bad for making you drunk, that is. (you about have to be to put up with some of the ------- people on the public server.
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the one which troubles me is about an triple-loaded
gun which went off when someone tried to pull a ball without soaking the powder first, and it apparently went off when he rammed it hard with the puller.
THIS is silly - how do you pull a ball by ramming it with a puller? Perhaps with the gun at full cock and capped or primed, set trigger set & the bump of running the screw into the ball to start it, sets the gun off? Of course, for litigation purposes, only part of the story is known.
Guys here have seen the video of my loading my rifles, too many time - so I'm not going to repeat. After the ball stops at the powder when I am loading it, I place the hole in my short starter over the end of the rod and give that a smack with the palm of my hand. I do it exactly the same way, every time I load the rifle - any ML rifle. In using a chronograph and testing methods, this one gives me velocity extremes, low to high, over 20 yards that are within 20fps in the smaller bores and as low as 6fps in the .69 beast! Technically speaking, the closer the shot to shot spread, the better the accuracy potential.
When I pull a ball, I NEVER soak the powder first. How the h--l does a person load the gun 3 times, one on top of the other? Yeah - I've done 2 - but the rod protruding 2 or 3" TOO far out the muzzle as the second ball was seated, was sort of a dead giveaway I'd screwed up royally. If that happens, best to have a GREAT rifle, then you can just shoot it out - YIKES - worked for me (and many others) - might not for you.
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I would assume that he hit the ramrod to start the threads of the puller before screwing it into the ball. It's a story I read on an old posting on this forum, and it got me to wondering about the guys who slam their ramrods on the ball repeatedly. At the least, it's just plain stupid. My ramrod is marked for "empty" and "full," and I push the patched ball down about 6 inches at a time, until it reaches the "full" mark. I notice that the mark tends to raise up a bit after numerous shots, so then I scrape the breech plug and it's back to the usual level. I really don't want to flat-spot the ball, so I prefer to push it instead of hammering it down.
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I played with flinters for 30 years and I never had one of mine fire except by its own ignition system. I had fire a few times when I did not intend to fire, but it was because the cock fell on the steel and sent sparks into a primed pan against the flashhole of a loaded barrel.
While I understand that it can happen, I never experienced a spark in the chamber setting off the powder as I poured it in or while seating the ball.
volatpluvia
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I agree that dangers are wildly exagerated. Much of the concearns are based on wives tales. The static electricity "issue" comes to mind. When they are repeated it gives fuel to politicians to restrict our hobby. For instance in California you can only keep one pound of black on hand. Gasoline is a far greater storage hazard, but our hobby gets attacked, not lawn mowers. I would bet than the chance ofinjury on the drive to and from the range is hundreds of times greater than an injury from shooting BP. Lets try to keep things inperspective.
Well said... I've had more close calls with my weedwacker throwing stones at me than using black powder for the last 39 years.
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Exaggerations concerning ANY firearms or their handling, makes for good, negative press (oxymoron?) - thus these very strange and oft-times rare or even fabricated events get repeated loudly and often.
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I think the one pound of powder in California, is a local ordinance, not state law.
Hungry Horse
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I think you're wrong.
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Ammunition_and_Black_Powder
But the way I read it, if you are a BPC shooter, you can have an unlimited amount of cartridges loaded with black, but not in loose form. You might try to define powder in horns and flasks as ammo, I suppose. I expect this is a widely ignored law, as are many, sometimes out of civil disobedience, sometimes out of ignorance. Of course ol' Henry David T. thought engaging in civil disobedience included willingness to do the jail time.
:-\
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California Health and Safety Code Section 12101-12112
12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
sporting powder, provided that:
(a) Smokeless powder is intended only for hand loading of small
arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(b) Black sporting powder is intended for loading of small arms or
small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
or other disposition to another person.
(d) The storage, use and handling of such smokeless and black
powder conforms to rules, regulations, or ordinances of authorities
having jurisdiction for fire prevention and suppression in the area
of such storage, use, and handling of such explosives.
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Yup, so you can have one pound or less of black powder, the way I read it. This law is dumb, and widely ignored. But God and a really good lawyer help you if you should ever need to make an insurance claim and they can demonstrate possession of 1.1 pounds of a legally restricted explosive.
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Using black powder is safer than golf those most don't believe it. As long as one doesn't get in a hurry, smoke, become distracted or forgets basic safety, shooting black is about as safe as it gets.
Many of the "gun just went off" incidents have a real cause, touched trigger, cocked, cap on nipple, over charging or something really stupid. Most of us have had our own little "incidents", maybe "tattooing", or even a broken ramrod in the hand but the serious ones are still uncommon. We who have much experience know the rules and have common sense. But occasionally we all slip up a bit. The horror stories that are spread around are quite rare - which is amazing considering some of the idiots that "give it a try" who can't be trusted with anything sharp much less a firearm - and this rarity puts them in the spotlight. Our hobby and our supplies are quite safe.
I'm quite sure you and Wade had hit the nail, smack dab on the head, Hanshi
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I don't think it's any of us that create the restrictions on BP, but the few idiots and criminals who use it for pipe bombs and other such fun little experiments and terror devices, in spite of the fact that it's been things like fertilizer and airliners that have caused the real terror.
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Several years ago at a shooting match I witnessed a competitor loose a thumb from a discharge while ramming down a ball. after investigating the range office found the gent had his flintlock hammer on full cock while loading. and the force caused the hammer to fall on a ...........get this...........closed frizzen.
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Now, back in my youth..when kids were allowed to play with firecrackers, run with scissors, eat glue, have BB gun wars in the back lane …ride standing up in the back of pick ups, and not to forget….no seat belts along with hard metal dashboards..
etc …the point is, a kid grew up with experience. If one of those kids had been at the range, he would have looked over and nonchalantly said " you're going to blow your thumb off ..better stop " ;D But now, "safety" is legislated, so the average person thinks all is OK no matter what they do. After all, it's not their fault. ??? Better pass some more laws . ::)
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I've been reading some old posts on this forum about accidents happening with black powder, and the one which troubles me is about an triple-loaded
gun which went off when someone tried to pull a ball without soaking the powder first, and it apparently went off when he rammed it hard with the puller. This got me to thinking about some shooters' habit of throwing the ramrod down onto the rammed charge a number of times, getting it to go ping ping ping. I think this is unwise because it would tend to deform the ball, resulting in loss of accuracy. But is there also a chance of the load going off from the compression caused by hammering the load so forcefully? I see a number of shooters doing this at the loading table of my BP club, and it sort of scares me. I mark my ramrod so I know the ball is correctly seated, and never give it any additional shock after that. With a flinter, it might be best to not compress the powder that much anyway, so ignition is more thorough. I feel like standing far away from the guys who hammer their balls.
Its very unlikely that the powder went off due to impact. There are a host of possibilities. I would avoid the guys pounding on the loads cause they don't know what they are doing.
Moderate, consistent compression will give the best accuracy. Light pressure I would not do. The powder does not have to be "loose" to burn right and likely will be less consistent loose than moderately compressed.
Dan
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If you follow the gun safety rules you should be safe. That and dont hang out with fools crazyer than yourself.
Only time I have really been suprised was once when I had a flint failure, brushed out the pan on loaded gun, installed a new flint and with an empty pan tried to see if it would spark (with the gun pointed downrange). It not only sparked but went off as well.
This story are they reading too much about fire pistons and imagining that you could create that much pressure?
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If you follow the gun safety rules you should be safe. That and dont hang out with fools crazyer than yourself.
Only time I have really been suprised was once when I had a flint failure, brushed out the pan on loaded gun, installed a new flint and with an empty pan tried to see if it would spark (with the gun pointed downrange). It not only sparked but went off as well.
This story are they reading too much about fire pistons and imagining that you could create that much pressure?
What Chris experienced is not unusual at all. It's not too hard to get a loaded flintlock to fire without powder in the pan, especially with a good sparking lock. This is very true if the vent hole is a little large.
This is also the case if you have a vent liner that is coned either inside or outside so that the main charge is close to the pan. This is a good thing for quick and dependable ignition and I put Chambers' White Lightning vents in all my guns. But folks should keep in mind that it's a lot easier than you'd think for a spark to enter the vent hole and ignite the main charge.
A lot of state game laws define unloaded muzzle loaders as percussion guns without a cap on the nipple or flintlocks without powder in the pan. Consequently, a lot of people transport them in vehicles that way thinking they're completely safe. My advice is when hunting and transporting a flintlock with a charge in it in a vehicle, empty the pan then leave the frizzen open and completely lower the cock. Sticking a feather in the vent isn't a bad plan either. ;)
I might be a little sensitive about gun safety from being a Range Safety Officer for so long, but the saying, "It's better to be safe than sorry" is very true.
Mole Eyes
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Blocking the vent with quill or pick or hairpin, bubblegum, works for me. (tangy!)
I'll repeat myself somewhat by saying that I don't think anyone who has ever BUILT an actual fire-piston will EVER think that M/L are "going off" that way. And that "incidents" appear to be very much more likely where "have to wipe" and/or complicated breeches exist (smoldering crud theory "SCT").
That learning to load such that fouling never has to be wiped (aside from the loading patch) minimizes the potential of the barrel to hold any embers, at all. Safer, faster, more consistent/accurate, what's not to love?
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Its very unlikely that the powder went off due to impact. There are a host of possibilities. I would avoid the guys pounding on the loads cause they don't know what they are doing.
Moderate, consistent compression will give the best accuracy. Light pressure I would not do. The powder does not have to be "loose" to burn right and likely will be less consistent loose than moderately compressed.
Dan
As to throwing the rod onto the powder, that was the way the military in the States taught their men to load their muskets - 3 times the rod was thrown onto the ball to make sure it was seated it their 'fouled' bores. When the European "Tige" and "Delvinge" patent rifles were purchased by the US Government, the 'old rule about throwing the rod onto the powder to seat the ball' worked well with both of these systems, as the "Tige", with it's internal post and the "Delvinge" with it's inner 'step' made the ball obdurate into the rifling with that previous loading drill.
Unfortunately some people today still load in this manner, that of throwing the rod onto the ball - perhaps a holdover from the military re-inactors when they still used loading rods and followed the old loading drill?
We have such a person who shoots with us - no matter which gun he's shooting, he throws the rod onto the ball until the rod bounces. He's done this with close to or over 10,000 rounds on each of his guns - probably 3 or 4 of them anyway. That's a lot of 'throws' with never having a" charge go off of itself" to coin a phrase of the 1800's. Even if the charge did 'manifest itself', the muzzle is pointed away from him and he would not be hit by the rod or ball. The 'going off of itself' was usually due to an ember in the breech and usually happened when loading a cannon without swabbing it - or when loading some of the early breechloaders (Sharps) with nitrated paper ctgs.
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A tight ball patch bore combo with a lube saturated patch eliminates worry of embers,no need to blow down the barrel.(flintlock)Cap shooters,dunno.
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Heinz, I agree my friend was ignorant of muzzleloading procedures and safe practices. Several of us intervened and brought him to proper instruction and lots of mentoring by trained instructors. And the instructors went to the event the following years to supervise the firing points. Identifiable powder was used. There have been no problems in the following years. Approximately 1000 students participate each year.
But the mystery still persists - how could the middle load of three be the one that fired? The top load had been pulled just prior to this. The bottom load had to be pulled as well after the middle one fired. He did not know to soak the load first. We set him up with an air compressor for any load removal required but it has not been necessary except for a couple of dry balls. If I did not know the guy as well as I do I would be thinking B.S. on his account. But he has enough ego control to share exactly what happened and admit to his lack of knowledge as well.