AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Bluegoose23 on July 18, 2014, 10:01:59 PM
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How long is it safe to leave a charge in your rifle when hunting.The patch would be oil or fat lubed. Does it change in conditions of high humidity or rain?
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If the bbl is clean before loading, the patch is lubed with oil-based lube, and the vent is blocked, I have no problem leaving one loaded for extended periods of time.
It was a month at least before I fired my last hunting load from the bbl after last season. It went shkboom just like all (most :P) of the rest and the bore is slick like buttah down to the polished breechface.
Tape over the bore or use a bore plug for extreme humidities. But realize that the patch put down a protective barrier all the way to the top of the charge. How much moisture can the powder pick up on loading? Dunno, but you're pushing @!*% near all the air out when you seat the ball, so I'd expect the humidity in the air to affect ball flight more than the burning of the charge.
Opinions will vary, there's mine.
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I would never ever recommend doing this for many reasons. I had seen this topic before, so decide to do an experiment. I left mine loaded with cfg 60grs. for 14 months and it went "boom" with no problem.....figured it would, and there was no sign of any corrosion....but...a shooter is taking a heck of a chance of it "not" going boom!
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If the bbl is clean before loading, the patch is lubed with oil-based lube, and the vent is blocked, I have no problem leaving one loaded for extended periods of time.
It was a month at least before I fired my last hunting load from the bbl after last season. It went shkboom just like all (most :P) of the rest and the bore is slick like buttah down to the polished breechface.
Tape over the bore or use a bore plug for extreme humidities. But realize that the patch put down a protective barrier all the way to the top of the charge. How much moisture can the powder pick up on loading? Dunno, but you're pushing @!*% near all the air out when you seat the ball, so I'd expect the humidity in the air to affect ball flight more than the burning of the charge.
Opinions will vary, there's mine.
Thanx for the response. I was wondering about leaving it overnight when I would be hunting the next day. Answered my question more than adequately.
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I don't know of any rigorous testing done on this subject, but there are many stories and anecdotes.
How long depends on how well the vent/nipple/ball is sealed (as BP is hygroscopic, it attracts water), and where you are storing the loaded rifle and where you last loaded it, and if you cleaned it well. A garage in FL will have higher ambient humidity than a house in winter in AK. With a tight patch and the vent or nipple plugged, the powder likely will stay dry, meaning it likely will ignite. There are legends of ML containing ball and powder for 100's of years, and fired like they were loaded this morning. If the piece was loaded outside during a rainstorm, it may not go off however careful you seal the vent.
As for leaving a firearm loaded for days/weeks/month, I'd be concerned that moisture got into the powder, which caused rust, so now the area in the bore is corroded. If the powder is dry, it will fire with the same level of safety as when it was loaded.
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In humid weather leave the loaded gun standing on its muzzle, stick a finger tight toothpick in the touch hole. You might tie something to the trigger guard to remind you that it is loaded. In general it is NOT a good idea to seal the bore of any gun for any length of time, creates conditions for serial condensation episodes. I have left my rifle loaded for a couple of months a couple of times and didn't have any problems but the rifle was inside so I can't really answer your question but surely several days wouldn't be a problem. I'd do it.
dp
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I don't know of any rigorous testing done on this subject, but there are many stories and anecdotes.
How long depends on how well the vent/nipple/ball is sealed (as BP is hygroscopic, it attracts water), and where you are storing the loaded rifle and where you last loaded it, and if you cleaned it well. A garage in FL will have higher ambient humidity than a house in winter in AK. With a tight patch and the vent or nipple plugged, the powder likely will stay dry, meaning it likely will ignite. There are legends of ML containing ball and powder for 100's of years, and fired like they were loaded this morning. If the piece was loaded outside during a rainstorm, it may not go off however careful you seal the vent.
As for leaving a firearm loaded for days/weeks/month, I'd be concerned that moisture got into the powder, which caused rust, so now the area in the bore is corroded. If the powder is dry, it will fire with the same level of safety as when it was loaded.
Yep humidity is a great concern. I hunt the Texas coast and the humidity there in the fall can be 110%!!
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I've left my flintlocks loaded for two to three weeks at a time during hunting season and have had no problems. I plug the flash hole with a toothpick and put a balloon over the muzzle. I also put a orange tag on the trigger guard so I remember the rifle is loaded.
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Many original 1863 Springfield rifles have been found to have been loaded from the Cival War. and still fired.
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Many original 1863 Springfield rifles have been found to have been loaded from the Cival War. and still fired.
Holy Cow!
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How long is it safe to leave a charge in your rifle when hunting.The patch would be oil or fat lubed. Does it change in conditions of high humidity or rain?
If you use lube like well cleaned tallow you can leave it indefinitely so long as its kept dry. Plugging the vent is not needed. HOWEVER. The gun must be completely free of any fouling. Fouling, even if it does not cause rust will pull moisture from the air. Quality BP in a clean barrel will not absorb significant moisture. If you take it outside in the rain all bets are off or let dew collect on it....
Dan
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I don't know of any rigorous testing done on this subject, but there are many stories and anecdotes.
How long depends on how well the vent/nipple/ball is sealed (as BP is hygroscopic, it attracts water), and where you are storing the loaded rifle and where you last loaded it, and if you cleaned it well. A garage in FL will have higher ambient humidity than a house in winter in AK. With a tight patch and the vent or nipple plugged, the powder likely will stay dry, meaning it likely will ignite. There are legends of ML containing ball and powder for 100's of years, and fired like they were loaded this morning. If the piece was loaded outside during a rainstorm, it may not go off however careful you seal the vent.
As for leaving a firearm loaded for days/weeks/month, I'd be concerned that moisture got into the powder, which caused rust, so now the area in the bore is corroded. If the powder is dry, it will fire with the same level of safety as when it was loaded.
Properly made Blackpowder is not significantly hygroscopic. It will absorb some moisture from the air but not enough to significantly affect performance, flintlocks will still shoot etc and when the humidity drops it will return the moisture to the air. If the powder is made with impure ingredients, poor quality saltpeter is a REAL problem for this and why back in the day powder makers were so phobic about it. Then it may absorb more moisture.
BP fouling sucks up humidity like a sponge at RH over 30% or so and this WILL then wet the powder in the bore/pan if there is fouling present.
For those thinking that powder will absorb much moisture from the air think about wool powder bags in the powder room of a sailing ship, below the waterline.... They always had at least some cartridges ready and the bags were certainly not air tight and I doubt the powder barrels were either.
Dan
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I don't know of any rigorous testing done on this subject, but there are many stories and anecdotes.
How long depends on how well the vent/nipple/ball is sealed (as BP is hygroscopic, it attracts water), and where you are storing the loaded rifle and where you last loaded it, and if you cleaned it well. A garage in FL will have higher ambient humidity than a house in winter in AK. With a tight patch and the vent or nipple plugged, the powder likely will stay dry, meaning it likely will ignite. There are legends of ML containing ball and powder for 100's of years, and fired like they were loaded this morning. If the piece was loaded outside during a rainstorm, it may not go off however careful you seal the vent.
As for leaving a firearm loaded for days/weeks/month, I'd be concerned that moisture got into the powder, which caused rust, so now the area in the bore is corroded. If the powder is dry, it will fire with the same level of safety as when it was loaded.
Properly made Blackpowder is not significantly hygroscopic. It will absorb some moisture from the air but not enough to significantly affect performance, flintlocks will still shoot etc and when the humidity drops it will return the moisture to the air. If the powder is made with impure ingredients, poor quality saltpeter is a REAL problem for this and why back in the day powder makers were so phobic about it. Then it may absorb more moisture.
BP fouling sucks up humidity like a sponge at RH over 30% or so and this WILL then wet the powder in the bore/pan if there is fouling present.
For those thinking that powder will absorb much moisture from the air think about wool powder bags in the powder room of a sailing ship, below the waterline.... They always had at least some cartridges ready and the bags were certainly not air tight and I doubt the powder barrels were either.
Dan
Good point Dan.
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How long is it safe to leave a charge in your rifle when hunting.The patch would be oil or fat lubed. Does it change in conditions of high humidity or rain?
It MAY change in rainy weather. Moisture and raindrops around the pan increase the risk of a slowfire or misfire. In the absence of rain or drizzle, I'll leave my gun loaded all week long (tagged with orange tape as a "loaded" reminder). I tend to check my priming powder every half hour or so to make sure it hasn't shifted in the pan away from the vent and to verify it's not showing any signs of having become moisture contaminated. If the priming isn't obviously bone-dry and ready to go, I clean out the pan and re-prime. If it's a very rainy day and I've had to re-prime several times, when I get back to camp I think it's prudent to pull the load or blow it out with a CO2 discharger and reload in case any of the main charge near the vent has become moist.
For hunting, I suggest you make yourself a 'cow's knee' cover or take care when sitting in a blind to keep the lock sheltered from the elements, check your priming periodically, and unload the gun when you're ready to leave hunting camp and go back to the house.
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How long is it safe to leave a charge in your rifle when hunting.The patch would be oil or fat lubed. Does it change in conditions of high humidity or rain?
It MAY change in rainy weather. Moisture and raindrops around the pan increase the risk of a slowfire or misfire. In the absence of rain or drizzle, I'll leave my gun loaded all week long (tagged with orange tape as a "loaded" reminder). I tend to check my priming powder every half hour or so to make sure it hasn't shifted in the pan away from the vent and to verify it's not showing any signs of having become moisture contaminated. If the priming isn't obviously bone-dry and ready to go, I clean out the pan and re-prime. If it's a very rainy day and I've had to re-prime several times, when I get back to camp I think it's prudent to pull the load or blow it out with a CO2 discharger and reload in case any of the main charge near the vent has become moist.
For hunting, I suggest you make yourself a 'cow's knee' cover or take care when sitting in a blind to keep the lock sheltered from the elements, check your priming periodically, and unload the gun when you're ready to leave hunting camp and go back to the house.
Thanks!!!
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Yeah, now that we're discussing the pan. My previous reply was focused on overnight or through the week when one might not be able to hunt, but is going right back to the woods in short order.
During the hunt it's ALL about keeping the prime fresh. Clean powder and pan _protected from moisture ingress_ will last long time.
But any residue whatsoever in the pan can turn your prime. Say you shoot a deer and reload promptly after the shot. Then you find the deer right away and don't immediately need another shot. AT that point, I'm dumping the pan and (re)cleaning it (and cover) spotless before I reprime and regrease the pan.
Because any little spot of residue sucks moisture like it's using a straw and will make a muddy puddle of your prime in short order.
I'm not worried about the miniscule bit of residue in the exposed bore at that point because a good tight ball/patch combo has pushed nearly all of the bbl fouling into the charge area and also put down a barrier. That even if some bit of corrosion begins during the rest of my hunt, the next shot will remove it. And that a proper cleaning will happen when darkness falls.
I use tallow/grease to seal up the "waterproof" pan and to divert any water that might run down the bbl toward the lock. Keeping the muzzle down lets gravity do most of that work for you.
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too wet to fish this morning... :D
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I leave my Niel Fields Leman rifle loaded for up to a couple of months due to an on going war with the crow(s) and have done the same with my flintlock but with the touch hole plugged with a toothpick. Patches lubed with TOW mink oil.
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I am conducting another test this year with my lyman g.p. rifle. Last year I had left in loaded from deer season to july 1st. No sign of rust after firing which fired on the first try. This year I have left it loaded and still haven't fired it, yet. Let me explain my method. I first swab out all of the ballistol that I can. Then I bust a coupla caps to make sure all is well with the ignition, then I run as many clean dry patches as it takes to clean the residue out of the barrel. I then load as usual, 75 grains of triple 7, .23 denim patch, and .530 home cast ball. I have used this procedure for years and never had a problem . Over many years of deer hunting I noticed that however long that I left it loaded either 1 week, or 2 months or so, I never had a problem with misfires or rust. Now don't get me wrong, If I hunt in the rain , It gets shot and cleaned as soon as I get home. When I do hunt in the rain I keep the muzzle covered with black tape and I keep a small candle in my shooting bag which I light and drip around the nipple base to seal the nipple from dampness. (CAUTION, ONLY APPLY THE MELTED WAX OUTSIDE WITH THE MUZZLE POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION,USUALLY TOWARD THE GROUND!!
And only to the base of the nipple and bottom of the cap skirt. Anyway,I am not recommending procedure to anyone ,or leaving your gun loaded for extended periods of time, I am just relating the way I have loaded for years.
topknot
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One situation has not been addressed. If you fire your rifle and reload it during the day definitely dump the load at the end of the day. Clean the rifle thorougly so that the next day it will be ready to load into a clean barrel. Should go without saying, but I thought that I would say it any way.
Putting a ribbon or something on the trigger guard is a must and locking the rifle where no one will pick it up is also a good idea.
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One situation has not been addressed. If you fire your rifle and reload it during the day definitely dump the load at the end of the day. Clean the rifle thorougly so that the next day it will be ready to load into a clean barrel. Should go without saying, but I thought that I would say it any way.
Putting a ribbon or something on the trigger guard is a must and locking the rifle where no one will pick it up is also a good idea.
Thanks David
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Yeah, now that we're discussing the pan. My previous reply was focused on overnight or through the week when one might not be able to hunt, but is going right back to the woods in short order.
During the hunt it's ALL about keeping the prime fresh. Clean powder and pan _protected from moisture ingress_ will last long time.
But any residue whatsoever in the pan can turn your prime. Say you shoot a deer and reload promptly after the shot. Then you find the deer right away and don't immediately need another shot. AT that point, I'm dumping the pan and (re)cleaning it (and cover) spotless before I reprime and regrease the pan.
Because any little spot of residue sucks moisture like it's using a straw and will make a muddy puddle of your prime in short order.
I'm not worried about the miniscule bit of residue in the exposed bore at that point because a good tight ball/patch combo has pushed nearly all of the bbl fouling into the charge area and also put down a barrier. That even if some bit of corrosion begins during the rest of my hunt, the next shot will remove it. And that a proper cleaning will happen when darkness falls.
I use tallow/grease to seal up the "waterproof" pan and to divert any water that might run down the bbl toward the lock. Keeping the muzzle down lets gravity do most of that work for you.
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too wet to fish this morning... :D
As always - thanks Wade.
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I definetly agree with what David said. Always clean after shooting, whether it is only one time , or several times.
topknot
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I definetly agree with what David said. Always clean after shooting, whether it is only one time , or several times.
topknot
Eggs
Act
Lee
Right, but as we have said, if you load a clean gun on the eve of Opening Day, go the entire season without firing a shot (my 2013-14 season), the load should still be fine next year or the year after...if it hasn't "seen" too much weather.
Quill tells me it's "hot".
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I left a cap gun loaded overnight because I was going to hunt again next day. One thing led to another and I didn't get back to the woods. Almost a year later we took the same gun to the range. I put a cap on the nipple and pointed to some blades of grass to make sure everything was clear. The grass disappeared in a cloud of smoke. My buddy said that he thought that cap sounded kind of loud.
Bottom line......people with bad memories should not leave a charge in the gun.
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When someone hands me a gun, I check if it's loaded. It's an automatic thing. I just do it. If the ramrod sticks out longer than it did when in the pipes, I assume it's loaded . Many of them I've come across are loaded. Gun sent back for repair…..guess what….loaded ??? Pistol sent to me for non sparking frizzen…loaded ???
Modern guns, I open the breach with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction as soon as it is in my hands. Always.
I even found a Model 94 at a gun store with a round in the chamber.
I check my own guns just the same, even though I know their loaded ;D Not much use if they aren't.
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...My buddy said that he thought that cap sounded kind of loud.
Bottom line......people with bad memories should not leave a charge in the gun.
A good reply to buddy, if you could have managed a deadpan tone at that point,
"Yeah, they're magnum caps".
So, do you ever check for a load now? People with good memories should check for a load you know. My memory is fine, but focus is challenging.
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How long is it safe to leave a charge in your rifle when hunting.The patch would be oil or fat lubed. Does it change in conditions of high humidity or rain?
To answer the question as presented.
It is only 'safe' if the person handling it is safe.
Humidity should not change the safty aspect of either the gun nor the handler.
A ML can remain loaded for 200years and still go off if fired. At some point during that 200years, it most likely was not safe or being handled in a safe manner.
;)
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Last weekend I took my old rifle which has been loaded since last hunting season to the range. If you will rember as I have earlier in this post that it was loaded with 75gr. of triple seven with a .23 denim patch under a .530 roundball. I set up at 75 yards put a cap on the nipple ,set the trigger,and aimed at the 3.5 inch bullseye and squeezed the trigger .After the smoke cleared I could see where I had hit the target at just inside of the circle at the top. loaded her again and hit inside the circle at the 1 oclock position. I shot a few more times and went home. Now since this was a test that I was conducting about keeping it loaded for almost a year with triple 7 , I was keeping an eye out for the appearance of rust while cleaning. I found none! I wouldnt dare doing the same with any other powder. I have been doing this kind of test with 777 for the last few years with the longest being 6 months until now. triple seven will not cause corrosion or rust in a well kept barrel. I am always gonna stay with 777.
topknot
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The caplocker of our Sunday last hunting, the fellow that took the second buck with my rifle (see story), had left his rifle loaded since last season.
He popped about 3 caps (and boy are caps in short supply he tells us), then pulls the nipple-crams a little powder in. Caps and fires just dandy.
But i think he wants a flinter now.
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SAFETY FACTOR! If something happens to you, it could kill or mame one of your descendants or relatives. Most people would not know how to check to see if it was loaded.
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SAFETY FACTOR! If something happens to you, it could kill or mame one of your descendants or relatives. Most people would not know how to check to see if it was loaded.
excellent point.
Folks of our nature should always have a line in his/her Will (or similar document) stating that all firearms, especially the non-cartridge type, are to be presumed loaded and functional until a knowledgeable expert declares them otherwise. And there's nothing wrong with discussing these things with your likely survivors whilst we're yet above the ground. Of course we can never know who shall survive whom, so talk to more than one person.
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When I was a young lad, I had an uncle who was a Mountie. He had a few guns: a .22 target pistol, a Mossberg .22 magnum, and his service revolver (model 10 S&W Military and Police) If I would ask him, he would show them to me and he told me right off: "When you pick up a firearm, ALWAYS check to see if it is loaded" and he showed me how. I have remembered that to this day, and every time I pick up one of my guns, I immediately check it for a loaded chamber, even if I have already checked it, and handed it to someone. I also encourage someone to do the same, even though they have seen me check it. How can it be too much trouble? Handling firearms is a great joy.
I leave my hunting rifle loaded, providing I have not fired a shot out of it. I open the frizzen, and put a layer of duct tape on the frizzen face. That reminds me that the rifle still has a load, and prevents anyone else who might drop the hammer, from an accidental discharge. If the weather has been misty, damp, or in any way wet, I discharge the rifle at camp, clean it and re-load it for overnight storage. As BITW says, not much use without a load in it.
I did a test a couple years back using Lehigh Valley Lube on the patch in a clean section of barrel. I left the black powder loaded barrel stub outside on my fence, but under cover for several days and then checked it. It was typical fall weather and without rain. The perfect bore had been oxidized by WATER in the LUBE. Whether it came from the atmosphere or from the lubricant, I don't know. But I know one cannot use LVL for a hunting lube and leave it for any length of time without rust in your bore.
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A cannon was found in Central park, New York still loaded after 200 years, and the powder burned after all that time AND weather---be careful around smokepoles....Tom
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Taylor,
I like the idea of the tape on the frizzen.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that I don't like to take a gun from a very cold environment into warm because of condensation. If the gun is cold, it stays cold unless it can be warmed gradually. During deer season I had a place in the garage where the gun would stay until I got my deer or the season ended. I guess I did the same thing with modern guns too.
Regards,
Pletch
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Several years ago in the town where I live a loaded muzzle loader from deer hunting was hung on the wall as the gun would not fire, and 6 weeks later the kids were playing with it and got it to fire and the result was a dead 10 old boy. Such a waste.I would not leave a ML loaded except in hunting and under very strict conditions.
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After last years deer season I taped a note to the barrel that said loaded on both sides of the paper and then put the rifle in the gun safe muzzle down, and that's where its been all year until last weekend .
topknot
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A real life horror story is what you described.I have unloaded more than one muzzle loader that had been left loaded for whatever reason.The last one was an original Remington Zouave military rifle in fine condition.NEVER assume these oldies are NOT loaded and to do so is to invite tragedy.
Bob Roller
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A year ago I bought a 50 caliber miniature cannon off the CLA site. When it arrived by postal service I checked the distance from the end of the barrel to the breech. Guess what it had a live load still in the cannon. Never take anything for granted when handling firearms..
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I've left my .69 loaded with a moose charge, hanging in the straps on the fireplace mantle at home. It looked good, hanging there. Since we didn't use the fire place that year, the rifle was OK there. The disk 'capper' was on the mantle above the rifle- in case it was needed for the bear that rambling around our houses. The kids knew NEVER to touch the gun nor the 'capper' and warned their friends that same way - upon serious pain - from them, then me. When I finally got around to shooting the rifle, it went off instantly, on target and the mink oiled patch neither dried out nor spoiled the charge.
In "moose" camp up North, I've left my rifle loaded 'freshly' leaning against a tree overnight(piece of tape over the muzzle, never bringing it into the warm tent for 3 or 4 days and when it was time to shoot the moose - it worked perfectly. The temperature was around -35 to -40 so when someone brought a rifle into the (16' x 16' "tent" it was instantly covered in water, just like that - instant, inside and out. The tent was double plastic walled building with roughly 4" space between inner and outer walls, with a 36" air tight stove, 'rocking' all day long. Keith's dad liked it hot - about 80/85 inside. Water dripped from the ceiling. Hard sleeping at night.
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My children were taught the same as I was. Never point a gun at anything you don't intend to kill. And…all guns are loaded until proven not to be. Before handing any gun to someone else. I always demonstrate that it is not loaded, either using a ram rod, or opening an action . My .62 rifle has been loaded the last 2 weeks, it being deer season here. I've never had a problem with it firing when required.
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Several years ago I was hunting with four other guys west of Amarillo, TX. One of the guys has a flintlock he'd made using one of our Lancaster kits. After harvesting a nice buck he mentioned that he didn't get a shot at a deer the year before and never bothered to unload and reload his rifle. It had been loaded for over a year and still functioned perfectly. I don't know how he stored it in the off-season, and it is not something I would recommend or ever do, but it worked ok for him. We all took nice bucks on that trip and all with flintlocks.
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I leave my Niel Fields Leman rifle .36 loaded for months at a time, in case of mungery crows, rifle is locked away, till needed. I use Mink Oil and
Swiss FFFg black. Goes off with out a hitch as the crows would tell you iffen they were not dead.
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Knew a fellow years ago that left his deer rifle loaded after the season and put it away. The following year he got the rifle out and thought it would be fun to scare the dog with just a cap, forgetting that it was loaded. The ball went through a wall and the refrigerator hitting his wife in the leg. She almost bled to death before they got her to a hospital. A loaded rifle in deer camp for a few days is one thing, around home is another. Safety can't take second place to wasting a load on the way home.
Mark
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Sorry, but "scaring" anything by firing a gun at it -even with just a cap…is an idiotic thing to do. Never point a gun at anything you are not wanting to kill. Not was instilled in me and most other gun owners I know. My rifle is loaded.
It is not a club, it's a rifle and when I need it, it is ready. I have no patience for stupid people. None. ???
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Bob,
You are absolutley correct. I tell the story to emphasise the importance of safety first at all times. The "gentleman" was never again invited to join us.
Mark