AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: heelerau on August 28, 2014, 03:41:59 PM
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I have just aquired this rifle, it has a straight Douglas barrel in .36, a lock that I suspect is pretty crappy, does have a fly, but the smallest flint fitted still sits against the frizzen and does not let it sit flat on the pan. Lock only lets off when the trigger is set. Does not spark reliably, springs have been wedged and the frizzen re hardened. The photos are not the greatest, seems ver similare to my Lancaster style long rifle as far as some of the carving each side of the barrel channel, cheek piece. Any thoughts on what it is suposed to be or is it just a sort of generic rifle. I have recently posted some photos in my last post .
cheers
Gordon
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Looks like you have an original longrifle that someone has tried to refurbish. looks late 1800's to early 1900 or the pictures are throwing me off.
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Mate, my pictures are not very good, it does look like an original, as it was kept in a pretty rough environment, it has patina in plenty!!! I am quite sure it is not an original rifle. I wondered if it may have been an early Dixie rifleworks kit, but I gather there may have been no kits as such available in the late 60s. It seems to be an early style by the butplate, and it has quite a lot of carving. It mounts nicely to the shoulder, but is muzzle heavy as the barrel is not double tapered. I have known the rifle since I was 14, and have allways been curious about it as it is the first custom longrifle I had ever seen. It does have "Century Arms Melb", "(Melbourne Victoria, Australia) crudely punched into a brass plate dovetailed into the top barrel flat. I have spoken to said company who deny all knowledge of it, claiming it is to crude to be something they would sell. It may have been marked that way to improve its local down under value. My mate bought it in 1970 at the Adelaide Gunshow, South Australia.
thanks for having a look
cheers
Gordon
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it is an interesting Rifle. keep us informed if you find anything out on it.
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If you post pix here you may get more response. I tried three times but am able to get to them.
Here is the tutorial:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0
Tim C.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf241%2Fheelerau%2FLongriflelock.jpg&hash=78c202094c050ac31fb7cced7a944ce536daf52e) (http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/heelerau/media/Longriflelock.jpg.html)(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf241%2Fheelerau%2FLongriflePatchBox.jpg&hash=ff4a55d5c8e59826ec57027d78db2a95a30d987d) (http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/heelerau/media/LongriflePatchBox.jpg.html)(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf241%2Fheelerau%2FLongrifle.jpg&hash=d7b4736e5a9bae56cee623cab36766ff3b910bcd) (http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/heelerau/media/Longrifle.jpg.html)
Tim, thanks for that, looks like it worked, sorry the photos are not better, if anyone is particularly interested I can try again when I get home in a couple of weeks.
Cheers
Gordon
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf241%2Fheelerau%2FP1010028.jpg&hash=5d5bc7d78112eef74dc532265411a402073a8bd5) (http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/heelerau/media/P1010028.jpg.html)(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf241%2Fheelerau%2FP1010031.jpg&hash=4bbd3a5a5c65d6344f32a4f05d9ded890aa4b152) (http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/heelerau/media/P1010031.jpg.html)(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf241%2Fheelerau%2FP1010030.jpg&hash=6c8f7248b5772407dc30d54f36c25f553350e189) (http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/heelerau/media/P1010030.jpg.html)(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf241%2Fheelerau%2FP1010033.jpg&hash=bc648fc743988082c1653a88d20e8b8410e2a3aa) (http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/heelerau/media/P1010033.jpg.html)
Gents some better shots, anyone know the make of lock, it has a fly but poor geometry, flint holds the battery off the pan.
cheers
gordon
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looking at the pics of the frizzen it looks like it mite of had its face redone or a shoe put on it that might have been to thick and be causing the flint to touch.
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I think both the hammer and frizzen are not original to the lock or maybe just the frizzen and the hammer is original but the flint in it is too big.
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Looks like a nice rifle but the Russ Hamm style lock will be a problem. That style lock works best with just a very small flint, almost a chip. Get with Bob Roller on what he makes that will fit in the inlet and then lap the barrel out a bit and you will never look back on that purchase.
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Whatever you decide to do, that is one dandy rifle111
Al J.
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Looks like a nice rifle but the Russ Hamm style lock will be a problem. That style lock works best with just a very small flint, almost a chip. Get with Bob Roller on what he makes that will fit in the inlet and then lap the barrel out a bit and you will never look back on that purchase.
Mate, am looking at a TOW John Bailes lock, sometimes known as a small Manton. I have printed out the page from the catalogue, It seems to be the right length, but may be a 16th of an inch to narrow. I will also have a chat to Mr Roller. This rifle has won a lot of gold medals in competition, has a lovely Douglas barrel. Pity it is not swamped as it is a bit muzzle heavy, but does mount the shoulder well and hold nicely. Thanks you blokes for having a look.
cheers
Gordon
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I think a Chambers' late Ketland would be a better fit in that mortise. At least consider it.
Whoever built the rifle had some knowledge and skill. I think you are on your way to a really nice piece.
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I think a Chambers' late Ketland would be a better fit in that mortise. At least consider it.
Whoever built the rifle had some knowledge and skill. I think you are on your way to a really nice piece.
Mate, thanks for having a look, have looked at the late Ketland, and will give that proper consideration as well. I am going to try knapping a small flint back even smaller and see it that gives me a result. Both my other flintlocks are ver ver reliable, hence my dissatisfaction with this rifles current lock. I am still curious to see if anyone thinks it is representative of any particular school.
cheers
gordon
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Dixie Gun Works has some older parts. They may have another frizzen
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Gents, cleaned the inside of the lock and found it faintly marked Russ Hamm, have found the replacement by L&R Lock company, co of TOW. I have a couple of spare frizzens with the rifle, which I have swapped about the get the best sparker.
Has anyone had enough to do with these L&R replacement locks? to offer me a private opinion? It is exactly the same dimensions, but may require some internal adjustments to the lock mortise. I am in no super hurry at this stage.
Still no Idea anyone, as to what county the rifle may represent? .
Thanks again you blokes.
gordon
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That is a very nice rifle. These type of guns are so important to the history of modern longrifle building. The builder new what he was doing and spared little in the building and decorating this rifle.
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The Chambers Late Ketland is superior to any L&R. That said the L&R should be an improvement on you present lock.
The more I look and that gun the more I like it. Could you provide dimensions, barrel length, is it straight or tapered, butt width and hight, length of pull etc?
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The Chambers Late Ketland is superior to any L&R. That said the L&R should be an improvement on you present lock.
The more I look and that gun the more I like it. Could you provide dimensions, barrel length, is it straight or tapered, butt width and hight, length of pull etc?
Ric, I will provide you with the dimensions in a week or so when I fly back from work. The barrel is a 40 inch straight Douglas. I will check the measurments of the Late Ketland and see if it will fit. If anyone has the actual measurements, could they please pm me. I have a couple of Chambers locks and am most impressed with them.
Cheers
Gordon
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The Late Ketland lockplate is 125mm x 24mm. Mainspring and tumbler bridle depth is 10mm. Center of pan is 48mm from the front of the plate.
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The Late Ketland is 125mm x 24mm. Mainspring is 10mm deep. Center of pan is 48mm from the front of the plate.
Good Grief!
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Looks like you have an original longrifle that someone has tried to refurbish. looks late 1800's to early 1900 or the pictures are throwing me off.
Its pretty nicely engraved it seems but it has a straight barrel, it has flat head wood screws and its not very dinged up. Looks like they oiled the bore and then let oil run out the vent and into the stock. This is blacken walnut sometimes as seen here though it often follows the grain and makes streaks.
The lock is similar to late FLs and I have seen an original Beck with a similar inlet, thought it now carried a different lock. But the lock is a Hamm copy I think. Which would be about 1970ish. So I think its a much better than average rifle of the 1960s. But at this distance it can be hard to tell.
Dan
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Dan, you are right about the oil, the lock mortise has been pretty badly affected with oil as well. The lock is marked faintly Russ Hamm on the inside, found that when I cleaned the lock innards. She is a most curious rifle, certainly here in Australia, I wonder if it may have been made up with original furniture. The rifle was bought from a gunshow in Adelaide South Australia about 1970. Thanks for shewing interest in the rifle.
Cheers
Gordon
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The Late Ketland lockplate is 125mm x 24mm. Mainspring and tumbler bridle depth is 10mm. Center of pan is 48mm from the front of the plate.
Good Grief is right, we don't do metric here, try it one more time, this time use English.
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Good grief, Australia uses the metric system, so I think the dimensions were given in mm as a courtesy to heelerau.
John
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The Late Ketland lockplate is 125mm x 24mm. Mainspring and tumbler bridle depth is 10mm. Center of pan is 48mm from the front of the plate.
Good Grief is right, we don't do metric here, try it one more time, this time use English.
Not "this time in English" better say this "this time in American". Think you will find that the English i.e. United Kingdon uses Metric not fractions like we Americans. Take a look at this map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system
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Decimal, Metric.fractions.Not that much to any of it as far as lineal measurement is concerned.
Bob Roller
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Good grief, Australia uses the metric system, so I think the dimensions were given in mm as a courtesy to heelerau.
John
Thank you, but I personally am still Imperial, I feel when we went to both decimal currency and the metric system we once again removerd some more colour from our lives downunder. I was most at home visiting your lovely country, gallons, mph ! love it !
On a serious note, I do have trouble figuring out 4.9 inches, is that 4 9/16'' ? This seems to be how Track shew lock plate measurements.
Cheers
Gordon
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On a serious note, I do have trouble figuring out 4.9 inches, is that 4 9/16'' ? This seems to be how Track shew lock plate measurements.
Cheers
Gordon
Thanks for visiting with us Gordon. I would love to visit Australia/New Zealand but I am not sure I could stand the long plane ride!
4.9 inches as shown in TOW should be 4 and 9/10th's inches. One decimal place (i.e. .9) indicates 9/10th's of an inch, 2 decimal places (i.e. .95 indicates 95/100th of an inch) and .955 indicates 955/1000th of an inch)
Dennis
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Dennis should you or anyone have the desire to visit down under, we do have a nice cottage on our small farm.
.Cheers and thanks re measurments.
gordon
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Exactly right on the metric measurements. I knew he was in the land of OZ, and I used metric measurements. I agree with Bob R. It isn't a big deal either way. The upside of metric is that for general measuring you can get within 1/25"in. with no fractions. That being said, 42in. for a barrel sounds better than 107cm. ;D
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Gents, looks like a Late Ketland will be the go. Will post again when it has been fitted.
Cheers and thanks all for the advice.
Gordon
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Gents fitted a L and R RPL lock that is designed to drop in and replace the Russ Hamm lock. Had the lock tuned by a chap in Minnesota, and after a couple of hours scraping and fiddling about fitted the lock. Had to adjust the scear spring as the single set would not trip the lock. Works a treat and sparks beautifully, I have yet to refinish the outside of the lock, will post a piccy when I have done that.
On a further note wonder if the rifle is a belgian import like the Southgate rifle mentioned in another thread?
cheers
heelerau
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I'm climbing out on the limb here, but I'd say it is a hand made rifle. Its architecture, inlays, carving and engraving indicate very gifted maker - definitely not a European import. But I'd say the lock is a replacement for whatever was in it originally, based on the narrowness of the lock molding behind the cock. That side plate looks 1960's-70's too, though it may have been based on an original rifle's plate - I just don't know which.
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Brings up an interesting thought...about the development of firearms in other parts of the world.
btw, Gordon, any Trout water near that cabin???
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No trout water nearby, a creek, native fish and a few jilgies , we have trout a few hours south of us, but nothing like fishing in the Snowy Mountains in New South Wales or the lakes in Tasmania. We did develop a Lithgow single shot .22, a repeater from our military arms manufacturer Lithgow over east. We only had imported firearms during our colonial days. If any long rifles turned up it would have been during the gold rush in the 19th century, then mainly colt cap and balls, the odd Henry and yellow boy. Most muzzle loading arms were ex military, Besses, pat 42 and 53s, sniders, then Martinis and an odd assortment of English cartridge guns and fowling pieces.
cheers
Heelerau
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Interesting! It sort of seems that maybe the "longrifle" as we know it was apparently much less common, if at all, in other countries, yet "colonization" was going on all over the world. Somehow it seems that some of the European gun makers would have landed in some other country...which I'm sure they did. I'll exclude but note the "Afghan" middle eastern and similar "Oriental" firearms.
Nice old gun (I think) you have there.
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I'm climbing out on the limb here, but I'd say it is a hand made rifle. Its architecture, inlays, carving and engraving indicate very gifted maker - definitely not a European import. But I'd say the lock is a replacement for whatever was in it originally, based on the narrowness of the lock molding behind the cock. That side plate looks 1960's-70's too, though it may have been based on an original rifle's plate - I just don't know which.
I would concur with Taylor here. Who ever did the work knew what he was doing.
In the late 60s the Russ Hamm Maslin was serviceable. I used 2-3 Russ Hamm locks in the 1968 era and they worked OK but like many today might need some work to be safe.
Dan
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Nice rifle heelerau!
That side plate is almost identical to the one on my John Park rifle, and other upper Susquehanna gunsmiths used similar ones as well.
John
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Gentlemen, thanks for shewing interest in this rifle, as I have said when starting this thread, I have always been intrigued with where and how this rifle has come about.
Cheers
Gordon
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The piece has a great number of similarities to work done in the 60s here in Kentucky by a fellow named Bobby Yocum.
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Gents have fitted the RPL lock into the rifle, must say it is a good sparker. Have yet to refinish the outside of the lock but will get to that this Winter. Thanks to Bob Roller for the lovely inletting chisels. Did not have to do to much scraping about to get it to fit. Thank you gentlemen for your comments on this rifle, will look forward to nailing the odd rabbit and crow in the next few months.(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf241%2Fheelerau%2FP1010131.jpg&hash=968d4e7709779fac1add26e5ec39d7e8eff95149) (http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/heelerau/media/P1010131.jpg.html)
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Pray tell whats a jilgie ? mate ?????............Tom
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Check me out Gordon. A jilgie by another name is a yabby!
Everybody knows THAT!
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Pray tell whats a jilgie ? mate ?????............Tom
Tom, as Molly said, a jilgie is a yabby, a small fresh water crustacean, much like a very small crayfish, crawdad? in your country? they are nice eating, washed down with home brew beer !
cheers
Gordon
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Gordon
I could have giving that rifle a good home and had a good smith fix it.
Going to a Crawfish boil Sunday the 10th and will see Neill and Lynn.
Carney
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sorry for the condition, that must really be a barn find if it is from the late1960's are you sure of the time ? even the 22 out in the barn used to shoot starlings looks better that that. again what is the time period?
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Sloe Bear,
it came from a mate who lives on an island near the mouth of the River Murray in South Australia, it is a marine environment, I was given 2 other rifles as well, both Parker Hales, a .451 and a two band Navy rifle. All looked pretty rough on the outside, but he kept the bores in really good condition. He was not into appearances, so all three rifles look well aged, heaps of patina, which I have pretty much left and only done mechancal repairs to get them all shooting again. I did refinish the two bander, oil finish and it looks like it is 150 years old, well used and somewhat looked after. I still have to refinish the new lock on the long rifle, a winter project after seeding.
cheers
Heelerau
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Some are bilingual. Necessary these days.
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Gentlemen, fired a few shots this arvo out of this rifle with its' new lock. So very pleased, ultra quick lock time and happily slaughtered a soda water bottle off hand at 50 paces. No flashes, no klatches, a fine tack driving rifle gun !!. Still have to finish the outside of the lock and repair the slight stuff up with the lock mortise. Have now got a proper set of scrapers. ;D
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Hi, Mate, Was just wondering if you or any of your Friends in the States have ever heard of a Ted Bowling KY,
I have come across a .45 Kentucky Longrifle, Set Triggers, Large Patchbox , Loverly Tiger Stripe Stock.
Top of Barrel Marked Ted Bowling KY. Have not been able to get Pics Yet,it is on Lay Bye at Gunshop. Any info would be
Much Appreciated. Best Regards,Tony . Brisbane QLD.
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Mate, nice to see someone else from down under. I don't know the maker, but one of these chaps will, you may need to place it under your own heading.
cheers
Gordon
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Thanks for that Gordon, Will give it a Try, Cheers Mate, Tony.