AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: davec2 on August 29, 2014, 09:47:08 PM
-
Back in June, Jim Kibler completed a rifle that showed up on the Contemporary Makers site and precipitated some complimentary discussion (as usual) on ALR.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2014/06/jim-kibler.html
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31223.0
I mentioned at the time that I wanted to build a “copy of a Kibler” and said this;
"I can't add any more accolades to what the others have written. There are many, in fact most, original rifles that I appreciate greatly for what they are and for who made them, but they almost always leave my artistic eye, what I have of one, a little... flat...for want of a better term. There are many elements of any given rifle that I like, but there are almost no rifles that I can look at and say, wow, there is a rifle that I like everything about, the architecture, the engraving, the carving...everything. And, unfortunately for my own building attempts, I can't explain it. It's a lot like to trying to explain to someone why you think a woman is pretty. There are the obvious attributes, but the undefinable subtleties are often the most important. While there are many builders who like to make bench copies of originals, I would like to make, insofar as my talent would allow, a bench copy of a Kibler...and this one is a great candidate....As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
So, here it is late August and I have been gathering the required parts to attempt a copy….54 caliber, 44 inch, Rice barrel, excellent stock blank from Dunlap, Chamber English lock, TG, BP, RR pipes. I had Dave Rase inlet the barrel for me...wonderful job...saved me a bunch of time (and he works too cheap for his own good).
Finished polishing & engraving the lock…I didn’t use the engraving pattern Jim used on this particular rifle but used one from another Kibler rifle that I preferred. The lock needs to be case hardened. The TG, BP and RR Pipes are rough shaped and ready to install, as is the nose cap, as soon as the stock gets most of the remaining excess wood removed with the band saw. I’m working on the side plate.
(https://preview.ibb.co/b1i4bk/Kibler_Copy_Stock_Blank.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eU34bk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bO6e95/Kibler_Copy_Stock_Blank_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jEmPbk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/frajbk/Kibler_Copy_RR_Hole.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gWtFhQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i9yRp5/Kibler_Copy_Barrel_Inlet_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/g5W1NQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/byeo2Q/Kibler_Copy_Barrel_Inlet.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nmogNQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kaJ4bk/Kibler_Copy_RR_Pipes.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ckcK95)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iSG7wk/Kibler_Copy_BP.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bs1J2Q)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kuTbp5/Kibler_Copy_TG2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cKDnwk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cAxEbk/Kibler_Copy_TG_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mJobp5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ep2fGk/Kibler_Copy_Lock.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hYobp5)
Up to my fanny in alligators right now with work, but I will see how far and how fast I can make this go.
Jim, I'm having to guess on some of this as the pictures on the Contemporary Makers site don’t show every angle. I may have more questions.
-
Looking great Dave! Can't wait to see it progress. I made a foam impression of the gun yours is based on, recently at the CLA show. I need to pour a plaster cast of this. I can send it to you for reference if you send it back. I think it generally captures the wrist and butstock architecture pretty well.
All the best,
Jim
-
Jim,
That would be great !! I will gladly pay the postage both ways. Also, do you happen to have any pictures of the underside of the forearm showing the area around the rear ram rod pipe?
-
It looks like a Kibler so far! :D
-
Looks like a plank so far......except for the lock. I like the way that turned out.
-
I like that Jim gun tremendously. It's one of my favorites. You will do a great job with it.
-
One might say, oh, dear why is someone replicating contemporary work?
But Jim's mindset is firmly based in tradition. I firmly believe that smiths based much of their work on the work of others, the most up-to-date and in fashion work. So I would never question my motives...you like it...you do it.
I wait impatiently to see the outcome! ;D
-
Back in the late 80's or early 90's I walked into gunmaker's hall at Friendship and saw one of my more fancy rifles hanging there. I had actually walked by it before I realized I had not put my rifle in the hall. Heck, I hadn't even brought that rifle with me. A closer look revealed it was an exact copy of my rifle and very well done by Dennis Mulford. (There'
s a name from the past.) Later, Dennis came up to me and said he hoped I didn't mind him making a copy of my rifle because he loved it so much he had to have one just like it. I was not at all upset. Actually, I considered it to most sincere complement he could have given me, that he would take the time and effort to copy every little detail on my rifle and do it well.
Good luck with the Jim rifle project, I know it will be a great piece when you're finished with it.
-
Jim,
I'll send an address by PM for the plaster cast.
Acer,
In the past, when I have admired someones work (in several different fields), I had better luck learning how to do things and developing my own style by trying to exactly copy their designs and techniques first. This is much easier to do as an on the spot apprentice, but that is not possible in my case (being marooned out here in the People's Republik of California.) So, this is just the best way I know of being a long range apprentice. Besides, I really like this rifle of Jim's and I want a copy for myself.
-
One might say, oh, dear why is someone replicating contemporary work?
But Jim's mindset is firmly based in tradition...
I wait impatiently to see the outcome! ;D
I'm with Dave (and Tom) on this, I don't know the other schools much at all (those with carving and engraving generally) but that as i peruse them I never really see one that I "like all over".
Now, that I've looked at Jim's work (thanks Jan and Art Riser for the extensive photoset) I finally see one that I like stem to stern and all in the midships. (to be imperfectly nautical about it).
And with Dave tackling it, I expect there to be 2 such rifles very soon. I have full confidence in Dave's abilities to pull this off. This corroboration between the two makers (casts!!! so super), can only be good.
now about those alligators...you skin those? ;D
...Up to my fanny in alligators right now ...
-
Although I generally do not care for copies, it really makes a statement when talented builders want to start building a copy of your work.
-
Jim Kibler + Dave Crisalli = (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi445.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq171%2Fjoelhall452%2FEinstein_zps96c74e4b.jpg&hash=760f626fb36d92ca95f8f4130f900bf2043f3976) ;D
-
I had 15 minutes to spare...and a band saw. here is the stock with most of the profile excess wood removed.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cZ5vhQ/Kibler_Copy_Stock_Work_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/k9Ljbk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hW9z95/Kibler_Copy_Stock_Work_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/n1DgNQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jHsahQ/Kibler_Copy_Stock_Work_3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/chcmp5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nmY4bk/Kibler_Copy_Stock_Work_4.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eK1CU5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kdXVGk/Kibler_Copy_Stock_Work_5.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mB84bk)
-
Looking great! I sent the casts the other day, so you should be getting them soon. I don't have any other photos other than what's on the Contemporary Makers site. Sorry!
Jim
-
Jim,
Thanks a bunch for sending the casts. I will wing it on the details that don't show in those photos.
-
Jim,
The casts showed up in the mail yesterday. They will be a HUGE help over just trying to do this from pictures. There are just so many nuances that you don't get from 2D images.
Thanks again for making them and for sending them along. I will get them back to you soon. Here are a few pictures of today's progress:
Casts from Jim......
(https://preview.ibb.co/mUNu95/IMG_1901.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kxmMp5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hP0gp5/IMG_1902.jpg) (http://ibb.co/f56Mp5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hBxGNQ/IMG_1903.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gm5gp5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gQRnU5/IMG_1904.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iasSU5)
Start of butt plate installation.....
(https://preview.ibb.co/dLxcU5/IMG_1898.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bGUD2Q)
(https://preview.ibb.co/izGt2Q/IMG_1899.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nrkmNQ)
Butt plate install finished. Start roughing butt shape......
(https://preview.ibb.co/iDO6NQ/IMG_1900.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hoVWp5)
-
Jim,
The casts showed up in the mail yesterday. They will be a HUGE help over just trying to do this from pictures. There are just so many nuances that you don't get from 2D images.
...
That's frikawesome!
and in good hands. ;)
-
Had a little time to continue on this rifle.....
Barrel lugs are installed (dovetailed and soldered)
Barrel is pinned to the stock
Breech plug is shaped, installed, inletted, and bedded
Ram rod pipes are installed
(https://preview.ibb.co/eehY2Q/Barrel_Lug.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fBJ6NQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hyn0hQ/Barrel_Tang.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fYuP95)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gcmt2Q/Ram_Rod_Pipe.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hH4P95)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nDSpbk/Rear_RR_Pipe.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cgjrp5)
For this rifle, I am making the sights out of a meteor. Far more rare than gold or diamonds. The iron used to make these sights came from the far reaches of the galaxy. It traveled to earth over millions of years. It may have been traveling through the void since the moment of creation, slowly cooling on its journey to fall on what would become the United States. It landed about 50,000 years ago in Canyon Diablo in Arizona and this fragment was recovered in 1891. It came into my hands when I was a boy from a meteor laboratory and I have marveled at it all through these many years. And now, before I pass from the earth, I will use its iron to make some of the tools of my life. I do not know where this fragment of the universe came from. I do not know where it will come to its final end. But for now, and for heaven or $#*!, the ball from this rifle will always be guided to its mark by a piece of a star.
(https://preview.ibb.co/dXmPbk/Meteors.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mFjAGk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/chCK95/Meteors_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jHS82Q)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kAvHwk/Meteors_3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dhORp5)
-
For this rifle, I am making the sights out of a meteor.
... that's a passage you're not likely to read very often.
Tremendous notion, Sir. Can't wait to see it.
/mike millard
-
Nickel iron is pretty tough stuff. Hope you've got some really good files. Keep us posted on how you do on this sight.
-
Those casts are amazing! What is the material, and how were they made? (Especially without gunking up the original?)
-
Curt,
More of a problem than the natural toughness of the nickel iron is that, in many places, there are microscopic included diamonds that destroy a cutting edge. I do a lot of forming by diamond sawing, grinding or, better yet, by EDM.
Hemo,
Jim Kibler did the casts of the rifle of his I am trying to duplicate. You will have to ask him how the molds and casts were made.
-
Interesting use of a meteorite; this has to be a first. Kind of neat in a way, but I dunno: to my mind it's kind of like breaking down a fine prehistoric stone arrow or dart point to use as a gunflint. Do let us know how it turns out if you would.
Dick
-
" and you never would believe where the Kibler rifles come, they're baked by elves in a hollow tree, and there's no factory!"
:D ;D
And Dave.....the meteorite thing is great......take the other part of it, and forge a Damascus patch knife to go with it.....
Marc n tomtom
-
This is going to be fun to watch!!
(how come my dovetails don't look like that!)
Al J.
-
I think what impresses me the most is how neatly that underlug is installed. Very impressive work.
Coryjoe
-
I've got to admit, I laughed out loud when I read you are making the sights out of a meteor! Only you could pull that off Dave. I can't wait to see more progress.
-
This gets more interesting all the time. Very fine work all around Dave, the Meteor is neat idea.
Tim C.
-
Those casts are amazing! What is the material, and how were they made? (Especially without gunking up the original?)
The casts aren't perfect, but they do provide something pretty decent to use as a guide and they're pretty easy to make. I used Biofoam impression foam to squeeze around the stock. This takes on the shape. The foam mold then was filled with Hydrocal plaster. These are the first casts I've done and can hopefully refine things a bit more in the future. The Biofoam is sold in chunks big enough for foot impressions, but I'd love to find bigger pieces so more of a rifle could be done with one cast. If anyone ever locates bigger pieces like this, please let me know. I learned most of this from Ron Scott.
Jim
-
Is there a shrinkage factor?
-
I don't think there is much shrinkage. If so, the little bit would be in the plaster. If you look up a spec. sheet for Hydrocal you should be able to check it out.
-
Well, progress has been a little slow.....this working for a living is really cramping my style. At any rate, I did manage to make the front and rear sights out of fragments of iron meteorites (see previous post). The front sight blade (left a little tall here) was made from a piece of the Gibeon meteorite that fell about 12,000 years ago in Namibia. It was recovered in 1836 and is fine octahedrite (iron-nickel).
(https://preview.ibb.co/bRn82Q/Meteorite_Sights_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eFXK95)
The rear sight was made from a piece of a meteorite that fell and was recovered in 1776 in Xiquipilco, Mexico. This one is medium octahedrite.
(https://preview.ibb.co/eP2ahQ/Meteorite_Sights_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mxYgNQ)
The rough finished sights.....
(https://preview.ibb.co/bwTsU5/Meteorite_Sights_3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iXigNQ)
More trouble than they are probably worth, but I like the idea that the sights are made from a piece of interstellar debris.
-
I found one once, but didn't know anything about them at the time. Pitched it (not knowing).
I remember where and could go back, but it's a riverbed and no telling how many times flooded over since.
We're all stardust according to modern science.
and you left out a LOT of the middle part of that there sight-making process. Any quirks/surprised to working the stellar material?
-
I think those are great. I like the concept, and how the metal looks.
I have some Fulgerite along with some meteorites. I have faceted Moldavite also. Doesn't look good, but there it is.
Good luck, and well done.
-
did that material file easy or hard, for your sights i mean?
-
Dave........talk about blowing your own horn, now you tell us your sights are "Out of
this world". Just joking, of course. It takes a lot of imagination to do the stuff that you
do.........Don
-
Like Wade said, we're all just interstellar debris. But your sights are pretty cool.
-
out standing Dave . not only a great idea but your sights turned outr very nice
-
It seems to me that turning meteorites into gun parts is the first step toward forming Interstellar Mining Inc.. Just think, why wait for them to fall. Just go turn that killer asteroid into barrels and locks before it ever gets to Earth. ;D
-
Wade,
Yes, we are all star dust to one degree or another. As to quirks in working with meteoric iron, yes, there are a few. The material is not homogenous and often includes very hard spots or, worst to deal with, microscopic diamond particles that chew up a file or saw. One of the unique characteristics about meteoric iron is the Widmanstatten Pattern shown in the photos. This type of crystallization in iron-nickel alloys can only happen if the cooling rate from the liquid to the solid state occurs VERY slowly...less than 1 degree Celsius per every 1000 years...a condition impossible to duplicate on earth. So, as long as the pattern is visible, it is easy to recognize that the iron is not of terrestrial origin. However, by the time I get finished cutting and polishing the pieces used for the sights, the crystalline pattern is no longer visible and I would have to re-etch them and leave them bright to make the Widmanstatten structure show up again. But a bright polished sight isn't in the cards, so I will finish them the same way I end up finishing the barrel or by using heat to darken them.
Mountainman,
The material is difficult to work with (hard and soft spots as noted above) and it has a lot of fracture lines that you need to work around. Othetwise a corner may fall of your finished sight.
Don,
The sights may be out of this world, but my shooting usually isn't. The one thing I know for sure is that the "dirt seeker" I install in every round ball works perfectly every time and, at some point in the trajectory, I have a 100% success rate for the ball to find the ground....sort of like a little lead meteorite.
-
Wondering if etch to heat blue wouldn't leave some pattern? Thanks for info.
-
Dave,
You have taken a unique opportunity (most of us gun builders do not have meteorite resources) and made some amazing parts for your rifle, something that will likely be treasured for generations.
Wow, that is just COOL!!!!!!!!
Curtis
-
Curtis, There's no shortage of meteorites for sale if you want one.
Prices range from cheap, to not so cheap.
Check out this link; http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com/AZ_Skies_Links/Campocito/index.html
John
-
Dave,
I do like this idea....I once saw a knife, blade made from a meteorite in Damascus wY, with a elephant ivory handle as I remember.......beautiful and w/o a price tag!!....this was MANY years ago.....but I have admired your work, now you a new direction......using strange materials for your work...
Think about mastodon ivory for parts.......??? ;)
Marc n tomtom
-
Still too busy with work to throw full time at this, but some progress is being made. Roughed out the lock side stock contours, got the lock inlet. Made the trigger assembly and got that installed. Forearm shaped and molding cut in. Muzzle cap installed.
(https://preview.ibb.co/gc34bk/IMG_1954.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cXsxwk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nhxahQ/IMG_1953.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mowqGk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/c9L6p5/IMG_1951.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kcsxwk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jQ4cwk/IMG_1950.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jHMe95)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jSNVGk/IMG_1949.jpg) (http://ibb.co/k6xK95)
-
Side plate made and installed. Finished machining and hardening the lock and tang bolts. Trigger guard is installed and trigger adjusted. Cheek piece side of the stock is roughed in. All the metal parts are made and installed with the exception of the spring and end plate parts for the wooden patch box cover.
(https://preview.ibb.co/fMKXU5/IMG_1959.jpg) (http://ibb.co/epjz95)
The only major architectural feature to go, before I start in on carving and finishing, is the patch box. I've never done a sliding wood patch box. Any one have any suggestions before I have at it? (I've read Alexander's description in his book on how he does it.......and I find his explanation fairly incomprehensible.)
-
Dave, see if this helps:
http://www.americanlongrifles.org/Workshop_sliding_wood_patchbox.htm
Scroll down to Creating a Wooden PB.
Here is another:
http://www.hootalrifleshop.org/wooden_patchbox_lid.htm
There is another on Al's site under "Tips and Tricks".
Tim C.
PS: You are about 33 days into this (Based on first post) some of us would be happy to be at this point after 6 months. Looking great, Thanks for the pix. TC
-
Einstein said that the greatest gift a man can have is imagination. Dave has it and the skill to carry it out.
-
Einstein said that the greatest gift a man can have is imagination. Dave has it and the skill to carry it out.
Very appropriate, Jerry. He is quite an artist!
-
Great work Dave. I love those big English locks!
-
Tim,
Wow ! Great tutorials. Thanks for the links.
Jerry, Charlie W,
Thanks for the compliment, but Einstein also said, “Creativity is knowing how to hide your sources” ......and all of the suggestions I get on the ALR forum are my primary "hidden" sources.
-
To Jim Kibler.....
Jim, I forgot to thank you again, in my last post, for sending the casts. They are invaluable in being able to mimic the stock on your rifle. If I only had the pictures to go from, I would be at a great disadvantage.
Thanks again and I will send the cast back as soon as I finish up a little more work on the stock. After I get so far, I am committed whether I did a good job of duplicating your work or not.
Dave C
-
It's looking great, Dave. I've never used casts before, but can see they would be a great help. I'll be making more of them in the future, for sure. Glad they have been helpful.
Jim
-
By the way...it's killing me to not engrave the $#*! out of all this blank brass.....but I am controlling myself. One of the reasons I am copying this rifle is to force myself to work in a style that very much appeals to me but that is not my own. So each time I go out to the bench I say, under my breath, "Do not pick up the graver........do NOT pick up the graver......just try to make it look like Jim's rifle......"
-
Get it all finished. Take a boat load of pictures next to Kibler's if possible. to prove you did it..............................and then engrave the $#*! out of it the way you like it consistent with the overall essence of the gun!!! Enjoy it and I am sure Jim and others will enjoy looking at it too ;D ;D ;D
-
Started in on the patch box.......
(https://preview.ibb.co/jj22U5/IMG_1968.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bGVBNQ)
Marking / engraving on the underside of the barrel completed........
(https://preview.ibb.co/jagPbk/IMG_1964.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ctSK95)
-
Its great to see your progress with this amazing build David. You are doing an fabulous job. Keep the documentation coming.
Jim, The Biofoam is made in Ohio from my understanding. I have lost their contact info. The company we buy it for arch supports from gets it from them. I know that a seating company that makes custom seats for wheel chairs uses larger portions of this same foam. It comes in 16 x16 x 4" blocks. I had asked one time if I could purchase one from them and they gave me the manufactures number in Ohio. Here's the Aspen seating company's # (303) 781-1633. The seating company balked at selling to me I think because I was making wheel chairs seats at one time my self. The guy I talked to in ohio gave me a price that put an end to my interest how ever. It was like $150 per block. I can by Oasis foam from Michaels for $2 a brick and glue up a blank to do my molding. You may have better luck than I with this. .
-
Believe me those roman letters are not easy to do and they look so good. Nice job Dave.
-
OK....I read the tutorials and here it is....my first wooden patch box minus the spring and the carving....but the box lid seems to have come out OK, and I didn't follow all the complicated instructions to attach and fit the brass end plate. I came up with a simple method that seems to work just fine.
(https://preview.ibb.co/g8sfGk/Wood_Patch_Box_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/faG7wk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cQxfGk/Wood_Patch_Box_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/exXEbk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eVxfGk/Wood_Patch_Box_3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cRUGp5)
OK..all the metal parts are made, engraved, installed. I'm down to final stock shaping, carving, and finishing.
-
Looks great!! What is the dimensions on you patch box lid?
Best regards
Rolf
-
Rolf,
The base (widest part) is 1.540 inches wide and the lid is 5.5 inches long.
-
Dave, that lid looks to have a slight tapper, rear to forward. If so, how much? Great looking gun by the way.
-
Smylee,
The lid tapers about 0.150 inches on a side over 4.5 inches.
-
Dave, I haven't posted yet but have been following this thread the whole way - You've done an outstanding job and I admire your willingness to step outside your comfort zone and leave the brass parts not engraved. It's the lines and overall flow that get someone's attention from across the room - this one (as well as Jim's original piece) will do just that. I'm looking forward to seeing it completed. Great work!
-Eric
-
Eric,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. When this is done you will certainly be able to tell Jim didn't make it, but I am fairly pleased with how it is turning out thus far and I am learning a lot by trying to mimic Jim's excellent craftsmanship and design. And it's fun from the stand point that I don't have to try to figure out what I want it to look like...trying to decide how you want to do something when there are no restrictions often takes me longer than the execution. (But that's kind of a function of not knowing what your doing...:)
-
Started some of the carving......
(https://preview.ibb.co/k4mt2Q/IMG_1979.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fZhBp5)
-
Dave, thanks for those specs on the box lid. I think those lids that have a slight tapper to them transition into the wrist so much smoother. Nice clean looking carving too.
-
(But that's kind of a function of not knowing what your doing...:)
Dave--
I have seen your work as your posted it here and also own a couple of pieces that you created. Based on those two facts, I am sure you will be able to show us a fine rifle that will be very close to the one that Jim has done. It looks like you have a great start.
-
Dave......you have always impressed me with all of your little things that you do, and
this gun is coming along great. What really impresses me is your name on top of the
barrel. This type of lettering is difficult, it is either done right or it looks like $#@* and
will jump out and bite you. I have a feeling that when this gun is finished you will
succomb to looking at those bare brass parts and will have to "finish" them.......Don
-
Don,
Thanks for the kind words. While, in the past, I have felt obligated to engrave anything that would hold still long enough, I am becoming "at one with" Jim's more elegant but less overtly ornate style. I still want to strive to be able to do things like Jerry Huddleston does them, but this less decorated style is a pleasure to work as well...and it goes much more quickly when you don't spend three days just engraving a trigger guard.
-
While, in the past, I have felt obligated to engrave anything that would hold still long enough, .....
Dave, does that come from the Navy maxim: "if it doesn't move, paint it"?
Your gun is looking fantastic and a very nice compliment to Jim. As always, your carving is crisp and clean.
dave
-
David,
Yes...had to laugh at the "if it doesn't move, paint it" comment. Of course, the other half of that is, "if it does move, salute it".
-
Well, it's not "Kibler Quality" carving but it is coming along ...and I am learning some new techniques as I try to duplicate the details of Jim's rifle.
(https://preview.ibb.co/fotebk/IMG_1994.jpg) (http://ibb.co/d7Z7U5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bPAQGk/IMG_1990.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ei4kGk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/h1bbNQ/IMG_1988.jpg) (http://ibb.co/n9E7U5)
And the rear sight is now installed.....
(https://preview.ibb.co/eKLgp5/IMG_1997.jpg) (http://ibb.co/k6Y1p5)
I will have to stop work for a while as I must travel for business, but it shouldn't take me too long to finish this one as soon as I get back.
-
...and I am learning some new techniques as I try to duplicate the details of Jim's rifle.
This is exactly why one copies another's work. One learns new techniques in the process of copying. It's often not clear what you will learn at the outset, but appreciation sets in somewhere along the journey. You might learn something about the master, but you also learn something about yourself by pushing yourself to new levels, going into unknown territory.
Good job, Dave! It's great to watch your progress.
-
Finished up the last of the rough carving. All of it needs to be gone over, straightened out, sculpted a little more, and the background cleaned up. However, forward progress will have to wait for now. (This working for a living stuff is really cramping my style....) At any rate, here is where I will have to leave it for a couple of weeks.
(https://preview.ibb.co/j0prp5/IMG_2011.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dT1RNQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hOaWp5/IMG_2009.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jBc0hQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i3UD2Q/IMG_2007.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dn8j95)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jEnpbk/IMG_2004.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jrdvGk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nxaLhQ/IMG_2002.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kGHpbk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kZ2cU5/IMG_2012.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j1R495)
-
Beautiful work, Dave.
-
OK....had some time to start the wood finishing process. Quite some time ago, I made up some aqua fortis nitrate stain using Bill Knight's excellent method noted in his book (with Bill Mende), "Staining and Finishing for Muzzleloading Gun Builders, Methods and Materials from 1750 - 1850". (An outstanding resource, by the by.) This is the first, and perhaps the only, application of the stain. It is drying here and has not yet been heated. The stock was whiskered twice prior to the application of the stain.
(https://preview.ibb.co/id7SU5/IMG_2054.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cE31p5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jTcu95/IMG_2053.jpg) (http://ibb.co/c0532Q)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mCrXwk/IMG_2052.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jPq32Q)
I like to dry stains and finishes in the warm California sun, but I get tired of running back and forth to flip the stock over and around. Call me lazy, but I had a small 1 RPM synchronous motor, left over from some other project or other, and some scrap plywood and made up this "stock rotisserie". I can move it around as needed and hang it on a hook or clamp it to something and it twirls the stock around in the sun for me once a minute.
(https://preview.ibb.co/gzRAhQ/Stock_Rotisserie_3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jL3Cwk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eOz7U5/Stock_Rotisserie_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nio1p5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dmmnU5/Stock_Rotisserie_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iAqE95)
-
Looking good, Dave! Can't wait to see it finished.
Jim
-
That's coming along great Dave. That lettering is spectacular.
-
Dave, your gun looks great and your slow cooker is kinda neat too. ;D
-
Are you going to 'stair-step' the front sight, directly copying the original, or just deviate slightly?
The rough finished sights.....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq300%2Fdavec2_photos%2FMeteoriteSights3_zpsc6c4f4f6.jpg&hash=aee215d016629c1fd81bf58519affe5a10082491)
-
Final form for the sights.....until I sight the gun in and make whatever modifications are needed......
(https://preview.ibb.co/fyekGk/IMG_2062.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bEtqhQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cUVswk/IMG_2060.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fKF32Q)
-
Well....for better or for worse, I have completed my attempt at a copy of a Jim Kibler rifle. No one would ever confuse the two, but this has been an excellent learning experience for me and, as usual, digital photography shows me many more of my mistakes than the naked eye. Nonetheless, here is the final result:
(https://preview.ibb.co/ieoUbk/IMG_2068.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cNS0hQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cCQ9bk/IMG_2072.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cTr495)
(https://preview.ibb.co/n2vWp5/IMG_2073.jpg) (http://ibb.co/k6B495)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iBDvGk/IMG_2085.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kb5Wp5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jUDUbk/IMG_2086.jpg) (http://ibb.co/m9X0hQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/m3NcU5/IMG_2089.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jWm495)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jm1t2Q/IMG_2092.jpg) (http://ibb.co/e0WFGk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dsrt2Q/IMG_2096.jpg) (http://ibb.co/juV9bk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iX7Y2Q/IMG_2098.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bxtj95)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iZRRNQ/IMG_2105.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dJ5xU5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/j8hpbk/IMG_2116.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iEg495)
(https://preview.ibb.co/na4P95/IMG_2118.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kvmt2Q)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kvXBp5/IMG_2123.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mT8j95)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kSALhQ/IMG_2124.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dsvWp5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eY0LhQ/IMG_2128.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cNqxU5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jL2Y2Q/IMG_2133.jpg) (http://ibb.co/e4g495)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mxLWp5/IMG_2135.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dzxpbk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eCALhQ/IMG_2144.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dfamNQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hLkxU5/IMG_2157.jpg) (http://ibb.co/h4K2wk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d8CNwk/IMG_2159.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fgovGk)
-
Very nice work, Dave!
Is that a little bolt holding on the rear of the trigger plate? If so, where's the other end?
(Isn't that a true statement about digital photography! I think I may start taking digital photos of my work so I can see my own mistakes!)
Gregg
-
Outstanding work Dave. Thanks for sharing your work. I'm impressed by how quickly you built this gun.
-
Hemo,
The little nub you see on the back end of the trigger plate is the end of a tiny screw. I always put in a very light leaf spring that lifts the trigger and keeps it in solid contact with the sear at all times to eliminate any rattle. The small screw (that you see the end of where it comes through the plate) holds the leaf spring in place. The trigger plate / pivot assembly is only held into the stock by the barrel tang screw.
-
Dave; Sir, nicely done. Color, carving and molding from the front of the lock area. GREAT. Thanks for sharing. AJ. After thought, great idea a "Stock Rotisserie".
-
Dave,
Outstanding! Love the color. Was that one application of your aqua fortis?
Just makes me humble. I use to think I was pretty good.
Love to see pure talent and passion for ones craft.
Kevin
-
Really nice rifle, Dave! Not much more I could say, very well done! Thanks for sharing the progress and these finished photos.
Ed
-
Outstanding work. You copied Kibler. I would be happy if I was talented enough to copy you
-
Really nice rifle. Expand on the style, the flow of the carving and slowy build your own style.
-
Another homerun Dave! Looks great.
-
WOW!!! and DOUBLE WOW!!!!
-
If I were Jim Kibler, I'd be flattered.
Dave, I am very pleased to see your progress through the entire project, and to see it come to completion. Not many builders give us the chance to see all the sweat and indecision that can occur during a build. So, thank you for taking the time to show us all the steps.
One thing I particularly like about this project is that you chose something outside of your usual work, you stretched your artistic muscles on this one, and went out on a limb. You took a risk, and you succeeded in aces, in my opinion.
Did you find that working with someone else's palette caused you to think differently about rifle building? Did working in someone else's style cause a shift in your gun building interests? Did you learn new techniques and develop a different set of tools?
I relate this to painting; if I wanted to paint like Rembrandt, I'd copy his work until I 'got it', then launch my boat on my own journey.
-
Well I am flattered! You did a fine job, Dave. There is a lot to be said for working outside your comfort zone. I find that unless I purposely do this, it's hard to develop and understand new forms, designs and ways of doing things. It's easy to get set in our ways. Thanks Dave, you did a great job.
Jim
-
A + Dave!!! You've done a terrific job in capturing Jim's fine rifle. I will further compliment you by saying that this rifle reminds me a lot of David Dodd's work too.
-
As a builder, I suffer from the HUGE disadvantage that I have never, NEVER actually seen an original long rifle with my own two eyes, let alone held one. And, actually, I have only ever seen and held one single contemporary rifle that I did not make myself. It was a beauty (I have posted pictures of it before) made by John Ennis. It was truly magnificent, but I only had a chance to hold it for possibly 3 minutes and that was several years ago.
To answer some questions:
Burnt - the color was the result of two applications of aqua fortis / iron nitrate solution and subsequent and heat blushing. The finish (per Smart Dog's posts) was Sutherland Wells Polymerized Tung Oil.
Acer - Working with someone else's palette / style was definitely an eye opener in so far as it expanded my technique, design eye, and sense of what I like and don't like. And, in that vein, trying to duplicate Jim's work did indeed shift both my interests and my desire to learn better skills.
Taylor - Not a question, but I thank you for the comparison to David Dodd. I assure you, it is not deserved but it is nice to think that I am making some progress.
Bill Shipman - Also not a question, but, just to warn you, one of your rifles may be my next attempt at a duplication...although trying to pick one to copy might be the hard part.
And to Jim Kibler, first let me thank you again and publicly for your gracious help, especially for sending the casts of your rifle (which should be back in your hands safely by now....I hope. I sent them through the US Postal Service !) Your answers to my emails about how to do this or that were also a great help and I hope I did not make too much of a pest out of myself. But, to warn you and others, you guys are not off the hook yet. I still need help next with carving, background leveling, and finishing...I am missing something.
I also wanted to share some of my "lessons learned":
1) It is much easier to copy someone else's design than to come up with your own. I usually spend much more time trying to decide what to do than it takes to actually do it. Copying someone else's work eliminates all the decision time.
2) It is very difficult to make a "bench copy" of anything when you don't have the original on the bench. (Although, in this case, Jim's gracious gesture of loaning me casts of parts of his original rifle was a tremendous help).
3) Digital pictures show too little and too much at the same time. By that I mean that the 2D images don't show you everything (i.e. subtle contours, etc.) you need to know to duplicate something exactly, but they make things that look good in real life look like $#@* at a magnification of 5X.
4) In making a less decorated rifle it is nice to smooth up all the brass parts and then realize that they are done. On this rifle, I spent, perhaps, 5 minutes, total, cutting the very few engraved lines on the side plate and rear sight.
5) As it was with my engraving, I struggled along for many years trying to learn techniques on my own without making a lot of progress. After a week of face to face lessons with Jerry Huddleston, I learned more than I had in the previous two decades. Along the same lines, I need to go take lessons on carving and finishing. I am missing something that I can't seem to put my finger on without watching someone, who knows what they are doing, work in front of me.
6) Jim Kibler has an unfair advantage. He has seen and handled many more original Kibler rifles than I have.
Thanks to all of you who have made comments expressing support, encouragement, and compliments. They have all been greatly appreciated. And sorry this project took so long...this working for a living really eats into my time.
-
That's an excellent recap Dave. I'd say you put that rifle together in record time.
-
Is there a way this could be captured in a short story? It's a pretty cool adventure. Dave, thank you for sharing your process: When you learn, we learn.
-
Dave,
Great job all around!
Why am I not surprised?
Jeff
-
Beautiful rifle!! Thanks for sharing the buiding process.
Best regards
Rolf
-
Wow Dave!!
What a great rifle and worthy compliment to Jim. I really enjoyed watching your progress on this.
dave
-
So Dave, If the the final product bothers you too much I will be happy to send you my address so that I can keep you from having to look at it all the time.............. Very nice work and I appreciate your attitude and communication process as well. Its not hard to understand why your varied work is all done so well and beautifully!! Enjoy it!!
-
two words:
R SUM!
;D
-
Ok....I finally got a chance to go shoot this "Kibler Copy" I built with the sights made from a meteor. I only had an hour or so at the range (and two rifles I wanted to shoot) so I only had enough time to get a few rounds through each rifle to see where the sights were shooting. I didn't have time to make any adjustments. Here are the first four shots at 50 yards, .530 round ball, 0.012" thick patch, 75 grains of FFg, from rest........
(https://preview.ibb.co/hC2SU5/IMG_2550.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kHDZ95)
Shooting at a 5 1/2 inch black, 6 o'clock hold on the black, this group came out good for windage but 5 inches below target center. I would like to sight the rifle in at 100 yards and the front sight needs to come down a fair amount, but I was pleased with the group. When I get a chance too I want to try the Taylor and Daryl method of using a .005" under bore size ball and an "are you kidding me" too thick patch....seems to work for them...and I put a good radius on the muzzle crown in preparation for that kind of a load. Wish me luck!
-
Meteor, being heavier than steel, is making your group shoot low.
-
You make it sound so simple Tom! That is a most respectable group Dave, and I agree that you'll need to take away some front sight to raise the group, with that load. Luck don't enter into it. Like Mike Brookes says, "easy peasy".
-
Taylor,
What is a good starting load for a .54?
-
Looks like you have a real shooting star on your hands.
-
Dave: you can start at 70 grains, and it may be all you need for all your shooting. But I think you'll find that your groups will shrink with 75 gr. and perhaps a little more with 80 gr., especially out past 50 yds. You may find your most accurate shooting with up to 100 gr. FFg, but don't rule out FFFg either. Perhaps more important than the quantity of powder, is the quality of the patch. Were it I, I'd not use anything thinner than .018" compressed in the thin part of a Vernier's calipers. This compression is what your rifling does to the patch, so this is the measure. You will likely settle for a tight cotton weave that measures between .018" and .022". Make sure the patch is soaked to the point of dripping when you start your ball. This way, you'll load all day without effort, and without having to wipe. And your accuracy will be consistent throughout the exercise. I have noted that others mileage varies, but only here occasionally on the ALR, and those standing outside the winner's circle at matches.
-
Taylor,
Thank you for the information. I have also had a PM exchange with Daryl on loads, patches, ball diameters, etc., and have a good idea from both of you where to go next with this. Building these things is fun, but making them shoot up to their full potential is even "funner".
-
Hey Dave. Could you shoot that good with a 16" navel gun???
-
With a 16 inch gun (800 pounds of powder behind a 2700 pound armor piercing shell) the muzzle velocity was around 2,690 ft / second and max effective range was 42,000 yards. Among several other things, you had to take the rotation of the earth into account, more or less, depending on which direction you were shooting and how far away the target was. (Coriolis effect) I never punched any paper with one of those guns, but the targets always seemed to disappear completely and with regularity...of course, when the projectile contains a ton of high explosive, it makes up for some minor inaccuracies as far as bullet placement goes.
-
Remarkable reading! I had no idea.
-
Taylor,
The individual smokeless powder grains in the bags are about an inch in diameter and about 2 1/2 inches long.
In the late 1980's I was involved in gunnery exercises with the USS New Jersey off the coast of San Diego...
(https://preview.ibb.co/b3Ap95/sc0031e29a.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iWhfGk)
Here is a 9 gun salvo fired by the USS Iowa - that's 9 times 2,700 pounds of projectile plus 9 times 800 pounds of powder (total of 31,500 pound of material) all leaving the ship at 2,600 feet per second at the same instant. It's a lot like throwing 9 Volkswagens over the horizon all at once. I'll tell you, it's a thrill....if you like guns. Of course, enjoying the sound of the guns is part of why I am soon headed to Costco to get my hearing aids.
(https://image.ibb.co/kkhxwk/BB61_USS_Iowa_BB61_broadside_USN.jpg) (http://ibb.co/heWqGk)
Everything about these majestic ships was an engineering marvel....not the least of which are the guns. The world will not see their like again.
-
Hey Dave.
I had hearing aids from Costco and then got them from the Vets. The ones from the vets are better and the service was better also. You have to be qualified.
-
Yes.....I had a doc recommend going to the VA but it will take me more than a year to get into their system around here.
-
Taylor,
The individual smokeless powder grains in the bags are about an inch in diameter and about 2 1/2 inches long.
In the late 1980's I was involved in gunnery exercises with the USS New Jersey off the coast of San Diego...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq300%2Fdavec2_photos%2Fsc0031e29a.jpg&hash=ace69c191390eddd4f2b14a29eccbd03e0ceb86f)
Here is a 9 gun salvo fired by the USS Iowa - that's 9 times 2,700 pounds of projectile plus 9 times 800 pounds of powder (total of 31,500 pound of material) all leaving the ship at 2,600 feet per second at the same instant. It's a lot like throwing 9 Volkswagens over the horizon all at once. I'll tell you, it's a thrill....if you like guns. Of course, enjoying the sound of the guns is part of why I am soon headed to Costco to get my hearing aids.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq300%2Fdavec2_photos%2FBB61_USS_Iowa_BB61_broadside_USN_zpsd8f883y4.jpg&hash=d6955b09d5636b724d4e2871840a1a9f663c36e2)
Everything about these majestic ships was an engineering marvel....not the least of which are the guns. The world will not see their like again.
The World's Largest Varmint Rifles! 16"- Oh yes!
-
Dave I have a question regarding smokeless powder and velocity. Why is it that from say about .308 caliber all the way up to 16 inch the velocity stays near 2700 fps? I am sure it's not a simple answer. Nice shooting BTW.
-
There is an abundance of data including velocity vs. barrel length curves published online. Try a search for "308 velocity vs barrel length." This is getting far from the original thread topic.
Being new to longrifles, but not new to shooting accurately... This group seems impressive.
A beautiful rifle, an impressive tribute to Jim Kibler, and a great shooter at that!
Well done. I want one.
Keith
-
My apologies in advance for resurrecting an old post, but I had a little time and I thought I would see how difficult it was to change out all the now non-functional Photobucket photos with the new system. This was a 5 page long post with a lot of pictures and it took me surprisingly little time to change them out. So, if some of you are discouraged (as I was) from even attempting to update some of your posts, I would recommend giving it a try. It is a shame to loose all the hard work posted here just because Photobucket had a brain @$#%. I won't have time to do all my posts but I will do several more of them now that I have an understanding of how to do it fairly quickly.
-
Dave, What process did you use?
Thanks, Tim
-
I'm glad you went through the trouble to re-do the pictures in your post. Otherwise I may not have seen this build, it was before I joined the forum. That was a beautiful build, the sites made from a meteorite was a nice touch, likely never done before. Well done.
-
Dave, As always you IMPRESS!!! Sir. I wouldn't bet in a million years , that you have never handled an original. If you ever get the chance , come to the CLA show. I know it would be a long trip , but ,worth it. Your posts are always a treat. Thanks for posting. Nate
-
Beautiful gun Dave! I've always been curious what it "feels" like inside the ship when those cannon fire. It has to shake everything!
-
Tim,
Since I couldn't see the originally posted photos I thought that I would never be able to remember which photo went where. However, what I tried was to go to the original post and click on the "Modify" button. When the post came up, the PhotoBucket links have the name or number of the photo as part of the link. I then clicked on the new "Add image to post" and uploaded the same photos from my files. They show up at the end of the post you are modifying, so I cut and pasted each one under the original PhotoBucket link to make sure I had the correct photo and that I had all of them. Then I went through and deleted the PhotoBucket links (which made me feel good). It sounds more complicated than it really turned out to be.
KC and n stephenson,
Thank you for the kind words. One of these days I will make it to a CLA event. Even more than handling originals, I am looking forward to meeting so many of the talented and kind people I have exchanged ideas with on this board in person.
webradbury,
When the guns are fired on a ship like that it feels like.....freedom. The weapons, be they long rifles or battleships, of dedicated men, armed in defense of freedom give a sense of purpose the protected will never know.
-
That's really beautiful work, Dave. The meteor sights are a nice touch.
-
Thanks, Tim
-
Sorry to resurrect an old thread again, but this one was the focus of a lot of the emails I got about updating the photos......others were interested in the sights made out of a meteor. And, as it turned out, this was the primary thread that I MISSED FIXING THE PICTURES ....... :-\ :o >:(
They are fixed now !!
-
Looking great, Dave - and shooting nicely as well.
Any further load work?
-
Daryl,
Unfortunately I have not had any opportunity to go shoot this rifle very much !!! I have been building rifles faster than I can go spend the time to really work on load development for any of them....which was never the plan !!! I have the time, here and there, to work on building, but it is a day long event just to get to the range around here. But work is slowing down at present, so I plan on just disappearing for a week or so, just to go shoot.... ;)