AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Mtn Meek on August 31, 2014, 10:43:50 AM
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I received some inquires about my Hawken rifle from Art Ressel’s Hawken Shop when I posted in Jim’s, “St Louis Hawken Kit build and review”.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32088.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32088.0)
Instead of highjacking Jim’s thread, I thought I would start another showing details of the rifle here.
This rifle was originally purchased from Art Ressel’s shop in 1981. Below is a photo of the proud owner in Art’s shop the day he bought it.
(https://image.ibb.co/kQR9vQ/Baughan_in_Ressel_Shop.jpg)
The owner took another picture of some of the rifles that Art had on display. The one he purchased is the bottom rifle.
(https://preview.ibb.co/i9ADN5/Rifles_in_The_Hawken_Shop_1981_3.jpg)
This is a composite photo of the rifle as it looks today.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cXW9vQ/Hawken_Shop_Hawken_left_right.jpg)
The specifics on the rifle are:
W. M. Large barrel, .54 caliber, 34” long
Nominal 1⅛” to 1” straight taper (actual dimensions 1.097” at breech and 0.978” at muzzle)
Total length is 51⅛”
Length of pull is 1315⁄₁₆”
Weight is 10 lbs
Height from top of barrel to bottom of forearm just behind rear sight is 1.99”
Width of forearm just behind rear sight is 1.52”
Height of wrist is 1.70” at mid-wrist
Width of wrist is 1.30” at mid-wrist
Drop at heel is 3”
Ramrod is tapered ½” to ⅜” at brass ramrod tip
ID of the upper pipes are ½”, ID of the entry pipe is 7/16” at the opening, but tapers towards the back end with just enough clearance for the tapered rod.
The stock is plain hard maple, stained dark, and finished with a varnish like finish. There is a little figure in the butt stock, but it’s not uniform.
In the pictures below, the triggers are unset. Notice how closely the back of the trigger bow fits around the rear trigger. The fit is even closer in the set position. You can’t get this fit with Ron Long’s triggers and the commercially available Hawken guards without extensive bending or forging of the guard. The Hawken Shop trigger set and guard is a cohesive unit. This is because the triggers and trigger guard were copied from an original in Art Ressel’s collection. The trigger plate is 1½” shorter at the rear than the Ron Long trigger plate.
The barrel is the only browned metal on the rifle. All the other metal parts appear to be color case hardened (more on this later), with some parts showing signs of wear where the finish is almost back to bright metal.
(https://image.ibb.co/nDrbaQ/IMG_3365_crop.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/hatpvQ/IMG_3372_crop.jpg)
There is no extra wood anywhere on this rifle. The forearm is nicely rounded. The lock panels have a minimum amount of wood around the lock. They also taper from front to back. The wrist has been slimmed down just right.
It’s obvious that the builder had access to original Hawken rifles and followed their lines faithfully.
The nose cap and the entry pipe are held on by screws, following the original rifle. GRRW used this method on their Bridger Commemorative Hawken and the late S. Hawken rifles they built after the Commemorative project.
It is interesting that the builder of the Hawken Shop rifle indexed the screw slots with pencil marks.
(https://image.ibb.co/kAE7h5/IMG_3410.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/fJZ7h5/IMG_3416_rotate.jpg)
I’m not sure who built the lock for Ressel, but it appears to have either Ron Long or Bob Roller internals. They don’t quite match the internals in the photo of the Hawken Shop Catalog #2. The bridle is similar to Roller’s while the mainspring is similar to Long’s. I can’t tell much about the tumbler in the Roller lock in the scan of the catalog but the one in the subject rifle definitely isn’t a Long tumbler. The internals are clearly not Schillinger’s, either.
(https://image.ibb.co/g7Rnh5/scan0002.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/gc5DN5/IMG_3454_crop.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/kW9jUk/IMG_3460_copy.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/cVMW9k/IMG_3450_rotate.jpg)
The rifle was advertised as having color case harden lock, breech, and furniture, but on close inspection after receiving the rifle, I believe it is faux color case hardening that was skillfully done with a torch.
You can see this in the pictures of the inside of the lock plate above. It doesn’t have the mottled look of the outside of the plate. Except for the area just behind the plate bolster, the inside of the plate wasn’t heated beyond the straw/brown color.
(https://image.ibb.co/mP9Jpk/IMG_3363.jpg)
There is no color on the hidden flats of the breech plug.
(https://image.ibb.co/hzo025/IMG_3376.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/kDFf25/IMG_3385.jpg)
The trigger plate, trigger guard, butt plate, nose cap, and wedge escutcheons appear to have faux color case hardening, but the butt plate, nose cap, and wedge escutcheons color is faint as if partially worn off. The edges of the barrel flats also appear to be slightly worn.
(https://image.ibb.co/jnW9vQ/IMG_3208.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/euTpvQ/IMG_3429_crop.jpg)
I had assumed this was handling wear that had occurred over the 33 years since the rifle was purchased, but after I received the photos from the seller that had been taken by his mother and father in Art’s shop (first two photos above), I realized that the rifle was originally finished with this wear pattern.
I met Richard Wesenburg of St. Louis at the recent CLA show. Richard knew Art Ressel and many of the St. Louis muzzleloader builders of the 70’s and 80’s. When I was describing the rifle to Wesenburg, he said that Keith Neubauer was the best of the custom rifle builders that Ressel used at creating the faux color case hardening and faux wear patterns. He said Keith was not only well known for building contemporary muzzleloaders, but also an expert at restoring antique guns.
A few other details on the rifle—the underrib is riveted on the barrel rather than held on with screws.
(https://image.ibb.co/iF7hFQ/IMG_3126_crop.jpg)
The under lugs for the barrel wedges are dovetailed in place.
(https://image.ibb.co/duC4Uk/IMG_3395.jpg)
And of course, the front of the rib has the half moon soft solder common on original Hawken rifles.
(https://image.ibb.co/eV24Uk/IMG_3470_crop.jpg)
There are no makers marks or signatures any where on the rifle. The only stamps are the “S. Hawken, St. Louis” on the top flat behind the rear sight and the “W. M. Large” over “J.J.J.J” and “L” on the left oblique flat near the breech.
(https://image.ibb.co/f4WW9k/IMG_3355.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/cYShFQ/IMG_3398_crop.jpg)
The only other marks on the rifle were some hand written letters inside the barrel channel of the stock. However, I don’t know the significance, if any, of these letters.
(https://image.ibb.co/knwypk/IMG_2960.jpg)
It is my understanding that Art Ressel would contract his “built to order” rifles out to at least five custom builders:
1. Keith Neubauer
2. Doug Scott
3. Joe Corley
4. Bevins or Blevins
5. Bob Darnstatter
I believe Keith Neubauer is the most likely builder of this rifle based on the information I've got to date.
I would be interested if anyone has any other information or opinions on who might have built this rifle for Art Ressel.
The Book of Buckskinning III, copyrighted 1985, has a section on contemporary muzzleloader builders. The author has a two page write-up on Art Ressel and his Hawken Shop on pages 51 and 52. The article states, “Though in the past completed guns have been built on order, presently the Hawken Shop offers the S. Hawken half stock rifle in kit or component form only.”
It would appear that Art Ressel only offered completed rifles for a few years beginning in late 1980 and ending before 1985. Since they were not serial numbered, we do not know how many were built and sold through the shop, but it likely wasn’t a large number.
Green River Rifle Works built and sold 680 half stock Hawken rifles in the eight years they were in business. Purely a guess, but the Hawken Shop likely sold less than 20 completed rifles per year or under 100 rifles total.
The subject rifle was purchased in 1981 at a cost that was almost twice what Green River Rifle Works was selling their standard S. Hawken rifle for in 1980, the last year they were in business. The price difference is explained by the fact that the Hawken Shop was selling a true custom rifle while GRRW was a semi-custom/semi-production operation. Few people could afford the price of a true custom rifle and most prospective customers would buy the Hawken Shop kit or opt for a finished rifle from companies like Ozark Mountain Arms at a fraction of the price of a Hawken Shop completed rifle.
In the picture below, the Hawken Shop rifle (top) is shown with a GRRW “Bridger” pattern Hawken (2nd down), an Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken (3rd down), and a GRRW Hawken made prior to the “Bridger” pattern (bottom).
All rifles are .54 caliber. The “Bridger” pattern Hawken has a 1⅛” x 34” straight octagon barrel and weighs 12 lbs. The Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken has a 1” x 33¼” straight octagon barrel and weighs 9 lbs. The bottom rifle has a 1” x 32” barrel and weighs 8.5 lbs.
A few things to note about this comparison:
The variation in appearance between these four rifles is within the variation one sees in original Hawken rifles. That said, the Hawken Shop rifle looks more “Hawken” to me. Everything on it is right.
The other three rifles have a lot fancier wood, but the Hawken Shop rifle still stands out because the light blue/grey color of its iron furniture contrasts wonderfully against the dark stock. In HGTV speak, it pops.
Even though the Hawken Shop rifle has a bigger and longer barrel, it’s almost as light as the Ozark Mountain Arms rifle. This speaks to the earlier statement that there is no extra wood on this rifle.
The Ozark Mountain Arms rifle has a few Hawken Shop parts on it, namely the hammer, rear sight, lower entry thimble, and 1” nose cap. The breech & tang may also be the Hawken Shop’s one inch version. The lock and triggers are from L&R. The butt plate is similar to the one on the bottom GRRW rifle and may be a generic commercial item.
(https://image.ibb.co/n8bnh5/IMG_3515_crop.jpg)
My only criticism of the GRRW rifles is the trigger guard (this also applies to the OMA rifle). The back of the bow doesn’t fit the rear trigger as well, and the oval of the scroll at the end of the guard is angled too vertically. It needs to be almost perpendicular to the line of the bottom of the butt stock like on the Hawken Shop rifle.
(https://image.ibb.co/d2mnh5/Four_Hawkens_copy.jpg)
How would I rank these rifles?
On authenticity, the Hawken Shop Hawken is tops. The GRRW rifles are a close second, but as I mentioned before, the trigger guard could have been better. The OMA Hawken would be third. It has the same guard as the GRRW rifles, plus I question why they stopped where they did on using Hawken Shop parts? They should have gone ahead and used the Hawken Shop’s butt plate and trigger guard.
On quality of build, it’s close between the Hawken Shop rifle and the GRRW “Bridger” pattern rifle. The inletting on both is precise, and the shaping of the stock and metal are faithful to the respective originals they were patterned after. But again, I give the nod to the Hawken Shop rifle because of the faux color case and slightly aged finish. It’s simply the difference between full custom work by a top notch builder and semi-custom production by highly skilled and experienced builders who had to produce a quality product in a relatively short period of time. The OMA Hawken is definitely a third behind the GRRW rifles as some sections of the lock plate are inlet too far below the wood and overall the inletting isn’t as tight as the Hawken Shop and GRRW rifles. It’s good, but definitely not custom quality. I don’t mean to denigrate the OMA Hawken. I’m simply ranking these examples. Anyone who owns an OMA Hawken has a very good rifle and plenty reason to be proud of it.
I apologize for the length of this post. It’s picture heavy, but that’s probably due to exposure to comic books and Playboy magazine during my formative years. I’ve always liked books and magazines with lots of pictures.
I hope this answers some questions that a few of you had about Hawken Shop Hawken rifles and helps you recognize it if you’re fortunate to come across one in the future.
I also welcome any corrections or additional information from anyone with personal knowledge of Art Ressel, his shop, and the people that he worked with.
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My best guess is assembly by Doug Scott, final shaping and finish by Keith. The faux case and barrel brown are definitely Keiths work.
The rib is actually screwed on with countersunk heads filed off to remove the screw slots.
Don't think you can get the old Herters hot blue that Keith used to brown with. Except for temperature it is the same process as the hot blueing using a boiling water tank. Keith used to joke that you read Herters instructions and then did everything wrong to get that brown.
The lock innards might be the ones made in India by Ravisch. Art advertised those as English. There are a few sets of those innards hiding in a drawer in the shop. Will try to dig them out to compare to your pictures.
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This is certainly a lot of great information.The Ron Long lock at that time had better geometry than the ones made by myself or Al Schilliger,The reason was that the Long lock's sear dropped lower at full cock making it easier to get engagement between trigger and sear.There was another lock made by a friend of mine here in WV whose name was Sid Estep.He made a nice lock but gave it up when he couldn't get name recognition .
I visited the Hawken Shop in 1978 and before then,in 1972 with Tom Dawson.I agreed to help him with locks and sold quite a few thru that shop.Becky Bowen (Atkins) worked for the Hawken Shop in 1978 and took me to the Transport Museum where all kinds of railroad rolling stock was displayed. I have a picture Becky took of me sitting on the front of Union Pacific Big Boy #4006. 42 years are now past and a lot of memories made then.Thanks for posting these pictures.
Bob Roller
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Phil, If this will help you any, here is one of Ron Long's locks from the early 1970's. (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi445.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq171%2Fjoelhall452%2FP1010059.jpg&hash=3121d233a19e6b12c7c336840df0f9244a26f43c) (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi445.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq171%2Fjoelhall452%2FP1010061.jpg&hash=443e0c97e48153b25471901f098c59263aaa35bc)
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Me and a few shipmates while in the Navy used to argue until we were blue in the face over who built the better Hawken rifle, Sharon, Green River or Ozark Mountain. The one I keep in touch with lives in Germany now and I'm going to send him a link to this post. Great information here to good to waste.
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Thanks guys for the comments.
Don, I suspected the lock innards were from some other source. Whoever put the lock together did a good job. It works real smooth. You also confirm what I heard from Richard Wesenburg about the finish on the rifle.
Bob, here is another scan from the Hawken Shop's Catalog #2, showing a picture of you and Bill Large together. This catalog is a nice reference for the items sold by the shop, but also for the pictures and write-ups on the people associated with it. This page includes pictures of Keith Neubauer and Doug Scott. It makes a nice tie-in to my rifle.
(https://image.ibb.co/ewYpvQ/Hawken_Shop_Catalog_No_2_pg_34.jpg)
Majorjoel, thanks for the pictures of the Long lock. Comparing your picture of the Long internals to the pictures above of the lock on my rifle, I can clearly see that they have different bridles, tumblers, and sears.
crawdad, that old argument about who built the better Hawken rifle... It's relatively easy to compare individual rifles like I've done in this thread. It gets difficult to make comparisons about the companies' products in general. Except for a few custom builds like this rifle, the Hawken Shop and Sharon Barrel Co. primarily sold kits or parts sets while companies like GRRW and Ozark Mtn Arms sold factory finished rifles as well as kits.
My opinion of the authenticity of the parts in the companies' respective kits is that the Hawken Shop was best. I would put GRRW second, but I admit partiality to GRRW since I'm a big collector of their guns. I would go with Ozark Mtn Arms as third because they use some Hawken Shop's parts. Had they used all of the Hawken Shop's parts, I'd probably put them ahead of GRRW. Sharon Barrel Co comes in as fourth. Sharon designed some of their own parts such as breech & tang, entry pipe, butt plate, and escutcheons. They had some unique ideas about how the parts should look and aid in building the kits. The end result is that they don't resemble what you find on many of the original rifles. That said, I know people that would take a Sharon kit and modify or replace parts and make a very good Hawken. More often with a kit, the quality of the final product depended more on the knowledge and skills of the individual building it than the kit itself.
For factory finished rifles, GRRW kind of stands out by itself. None of the small companies had the scale of operations that they had. Nor did they have the talent that GRRW had working for them.
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Mtn Meek,
You're dredging up old memories of things and times long past. I had completely
forgotten that picture of Bill Large and me taken that long ago day.To quote Bob
Hope, "Thanks for the memories".Like the cities of Troy ,Ninevhe and yesterdays snows,
they are now long into the past.
Bob Roller
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Bringing up old memories is right, I went to the Hawken shop in the early 80s',had the wife and kids in the car also, remember pulling up in front of his store next to a message parlor , had to explane to wife that I was Hawken parts !!!!!!
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Albert I know it is just a typo but it was a Massage Parlor next door to the shop. Might have been some messages transmitted. The girls working there often came into the Hawken Shop to get drinks from Art's soda machine A nice treat while looking at old Hawkens.
I was fortunate to have use of the second workbench in Keiths shop for several years. He started my collection of Kentucky rifles by selling me the Wm Antes rifle. After that one, he guided me in the acquisition and restoration of many fine Kentuckies. Unfortunately he passed away before I acquired my first real S. Hawken, so did not get to share that excitement with him.
One of our favorite jokes was when he finally was accepted to the KRA. He came back from the annual show and I asked him how he enjoyed it. He said "They could not have had a show without me" His remarkable memory let him remember every piece he had restored.
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Don,
I remember that K.R.A. meeting. Keith said I think I've done work on half of these guns.
Mtn Meek, Thank you for posting these pictures . It was good to see Keith again.
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Found the old Ravisch parts. Their bridle is much different from what you have They look like a copy of Bob Rollers English innards with a three screw bridle and a pivot pin on the sear. Unless Bob remembers making a replacement tumbler for a Ron Long Hawken Shop lock. I am out of ideas on the lock in your rifle.
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Interesting to see the name "Blevins" mentioned with the Hawken Shop. I know my dad Robert talked with Art about finishing some rifles for him, but as far as I know her never did. There are a fair number of unmarked Blevins Hawkens in the OK, KS, AR, and Missouri areas as he occasionally sold a rifle. He never marked them, and most often gave guns away or built them "at cost" for friends.
Roger O. Blevins
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My family and I visited the Hawken Shop circa 1980 ? Enjoyed talking to Art! Question who is Doug Scott shown in one of the pictures? I see a Doug Scott usually at Friendship! Same one??
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Found the old Ravisch parts. Their bridle is much different from what you have They look like a copy of Bob Rollers English innards with a three screw bridle and a pivot pin on the sear. Unless Bob remembers making a replacement tumbler for a Ron Long Hawken Shop lock. I am out of ideas on the lock in your rifle.
Thanks for checking, Don. I may have found the answer.
I had initially referred to the pictures of the locks in the Hawken Shop Catalog #2 because they were straight on and detailed. While I was looking something else up in my copy of the Hawken Shop Catalog #3, the picture of the lock at the bottom right of page 8 caught my eye.
(https://image.ibb.co/f1f2FQ/Hawken_Shop_Catalog_No_008.jpg)
Here is a blowup of the description and lock.
(https://image.ibb.co/cdy025/Ron_Long_custom_design_internals.jpg)
And another that compares the lock in Catalog #3 to the one on my gun.
(https://image.ibb.co/jdBypk/Catalog_3_Long_Lock_Comparison.jpg)
There's a little lens distortion in my picture, but I believe both locks clearly have the same internals.
The Hawken Shop issued Catalog #3 in the later part of 1980, so it would have been current when the subject rifle was purchased in 1981.
Now I wonder why Art or Ron decided to custom design new internals for the lock? The Hawken Shop lock plate is a little shorter (by more than 1/4") than the standard Long lock. Maybe Long felt the Hawken Shop lock needed internals with slightly different geometry due to the size difference. Just a guess.
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Interesting to see the name "Blevins" mentioned with the Hawken Shop. I know my dad Robert talked with Art about finishing some rifles for him, but as far as I know he never did. There are a fair number of unmarked Blevins Hawkens in the OK, KS, AR, and Missouri areas as he occasionally sold a rifle. He never marked them, and most often gave guns away or built them "at cost" for friends.
Roger O. Blevins
Roger, my source for the list of custom builders that did work for Ressel was not sure of the spelling (Bevins or Blevins) so I don't know which is correct. In fact, I don't personally know any of the individuals on the list. I was hoping I could get independent confirmation or correction on the list. I obviously picked up Keith Neubauer and Doug Scott from Catalog #2. I have been told from a reliable source that Joe Corley also built Hawken rifles for Ressel. Bevins or Blevins and Bob Darnstatter, I'm less sure about.
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My family and I visited the Hawken Shop circa 1980 ? Enjoyed talking to Art! Question who is Doug Scott shown in one of the pictures? I see a Doug Scott usually at Friendship! Same one??
The same guy. Doug Scott has shot cross stick and bench matches at Friendship for close to 40 years. We still laugh about the year he won the Nationals benchrest championship and then lost the Gemmer Club bench rest championship to my wife the following month. To Dougs credit he was encouraging and cheering for her the whole time. Great guy and good friend.
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The Ravisch lock as I recall was made in India and with decent workmanship. Bill Large got one and we took it apart and checked it for hardness and dimensions. The parts were very soft like leaded steel and the tumbler was too narrow and that was compounded by a too deep fly cut that left little to half and full cock notches.
On hardened tumblers and sears,this is not a problem because I have seen fine English shotgun locks with narrow parts but were hard as glass.
I think the Hawken shop would have stayed around longer if Art had diversified a bit and offered a lower priced line of guns instead of top of the line,expensive types.I remember the economy of the country at that time was not supportive of such enterprises or much of anything else.
Bob Roller
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Bob
That must have been one from the first shipment. Art forgot to specify hardened parts. Like any contractor they met the specs. just not the need. Later ones were hardened.
Darnstatter definitely made some of the first ones. Corly and Blevins I have no knowledge of. I made a total of 5 of the later ones. One of those was a replacement for one that got stolen.
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Darnstatter definitely made some of the first ones.
Don,
Bob Darnstatter is who I bought all those nosecaps from that you purchased. He had the mold for them, as well as for several other parts, but I wasn't interested in them at the time. I don't know who ended up with them. I bought $3500 worth of castings from him back then.
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Thanks for posting all this really authoritative information. One thing puzzles me- where in the forend is that set of initials, if that is what they are?
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Hi -
The following link details a full-stock flintlock Hawken which appears to have been crafted by D. Scott and which I purchased some time back:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=25971.0
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The following link details a full-stock flintlock Hawken which appears to have been crafted by D. Scott and which I purchased some time back:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=25971.0
Thanks for the link to your post on your Doug Scott rifle, Buckingham. I hadn't noticed it when originally posted.
Your post also reminded me that I had some updates for this thread.
UPDATES
I received some more information from a knowledgeable source that clears up the questions on the lock internals. I was told that Ron Long switched to using the internals from his late English flintlock in Art Ressel’s Hawken lock. Here is a comparison of the two locks showing that they have the same internals (except mainspring which is from Long’s percussion lock).
(https://image.ibb.co/hguwaQ/Ron_Long_flintlock_internals.jpg)
I also found out I was wrong when I said, “the Ozark Mountain Arms rifle has a few Hawken Shop parts on it”. On closer examination, the hammer on the Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken is an apparent copy or re-cast of the Hawken Shop hammer and is slightly smaller. Evidently, the other parts on the OMA Hawken that appear similar to the Hawken Shop parts are also copies.
And just for clarification, the use of a screw to attach the entry pipe is a characteristic of rather late S. Hawken rifles. The use of pins on the entry pipe is the more typical method used on original Hawken rifles—two pins are seen on some J&S Hawken marked rifles and a single pin on the others.
Lastly, I found out that Joe Corley built the third rifle down in this picture.
(https://image.ibb.co/euXSh5/Rifles_in_The_Hawken_Shop_1981_3.jpg)
Phil Meek
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Well I sent this excellent thread to him and we started fightin again. ;D
Mtn Meek, just to clarify and get this straight in my head who built the barrels for the Hawken Shop, the Green River, Ozark Mountain and the Sharon?
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Well I sent this excellent thread to him and we started fightin again. ;D
Mtn Meek, just to clarify and get this straight in my head who built the barrels for the Hawken Shop, the Green River, Ozark Mountain and the Sharon?
Bill Large made some of the barrels for Art Ressel and I made some of the locks and triggers.
Ron Long made some locks and triggers as did a friend of mine,Sid Estep.
Bob Roller
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Thanks Bob.
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I don't have the records to give you actual numbers, but H&H were the prominent suppliers of barrels to the Hawken Shop. THey were all tapered barrels
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When I return from the gun show this weekend, I'll post photos of a Hawken rifle made by Joe Corley that belongs to a friend of mine. It is very similar to the third one in the photograph. The top flat of the .54 caliber barrel is unmarked, so its likely not from Art's Shop.
When I removed the barrel, the bottom flat was stamped near the breech, "H & H", ".540", "1*48". About 15" from the breech, "CORLEY" is stamped to the left of a number "12" inside an oval. The number is stamped upside down to the right of the name right side up.
The lock looks similar to what was posted, and I will post photos of it along with the features of the rifle.
Interesting enough, its the first custom-made Hawken I've seen that has color case hardening (faux?) on the buttplate, breech plug (all sides) & tang, entry thimble, nosecap, & escutcheon plates.
Buck
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Hopkins and Hobbs barrels, Ok. he seems to think that the Green River barrel was the be all and end all of all barrel making because Bill Large was involved. Don't know that much about H&H barrels however. Any reviews? Opinions?
But it is hard to argue with him because Green River did build a beautiful rifle.
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I can assure you no one that I know of made a better shooting barrel.thanH&H when they were the original company. Tim
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Hoppy Hopkins made one of the best barrels ever. The original H&H barrels were the ones everyone wanted for matches. But like a lot of other small businesses they went out of business.
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Just purchased a Hawken. Pulled the lock and triggers..........Sid Estep from 1976.
(https://i.ibb.co/TtW8q3d/IMG-2418.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kXm86Cv)
(https://i.ibb.co/dpJP0hN/IMG-2419.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zg1B6ZQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/ftXF5Cs/IMG-2420.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZKfXPh0)
(https://i.ibb.co/fMXKYVS/IMG-2417.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XXWdZf4)
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Sid Estep is still alive and retired from the machine shop of the CSX railroad.I have had little contact with him in the last 35 years.
He built two fine rifles and one was precisely what was shown in the Robideaux drawings,a full scale Hawken.The second one has a shotgun butt plate and it was for his father who had NO USE for the crescent styles.I feel the same way.I tried to help him get started in lock making and he was a quick learner and made good springs which ARE the heart of any lock.He sold some to the Hawken Shop and showed them at Friendship but little interest was shown by those who looked at them.i got him hooked up to the German market but he was losing interest and sold all the spring steel and other lock making materials to me.The Germans would pay for the time and skill involved in making locks and triggers from bars of steel.I was away from locks and triggers for a long time and made bits and pieces for cars and helped a friend with his EUROPEAN Motors Garage.(NO rice burners wanted),He is deceased and the garage is gone and still missed.
Sid Estep was one of a number who offered good work to the muzzle loading "community" and was rejected because he was used to being paid and I felt the same way and still do.Now at 87 I probably will make little in my shop and can't revive the interest in the words "Labor Intensive".How many shops have come and GONE and fine craftsmen quit and will have nothing more to do with muzzle loaders or anything that is associated with them?
Bob Roller
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Hi,
I see that this is an older thread, but I am retired now and trying to get back into the hobby. My long term interest has always been Hawken rifles and this thread is full of great info. I'm planning to put together a half stock rifle with an H&H barrel I've had for more than 3 decades. It is a .54 caliber, 1-1/8" to 1" taper x 32" long with rib, thimbles and was set up with a percussion RH patent breech and tang.
My right eye has gone south and I now have to shoot LH. Do anyone have a line on where I might get a LH 1-1/8" percussion breech & tang to keep it a cap gun? Otherwise, I have to be a heretic and go with a 1-1/8" flint breech and tang I've found and make a fantasy half stock flint gun. It looks like to good a barrel to let sit around any longer. Any thoughts or recommendations would be greatly appreciated and thanks for all the knowledge you folks share on this forum.
Thanks, Guy
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No idea where to get parts and there is nothing wrong with a "fantasy" rifle and now being left eye dominant is now the boss for a
personal rifle of any style.
Bob Roller
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Guy, you might give The Gun Works in Springfield Oregon, https://thegunworks.com/, a call about a left hand percussion breech for a Hawken. They offer one for sale as a custom order.
Steve
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Bob & Steve, Thanks for your replies. I'll contact them and see what they have. Guy
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Buffalo,
You want a muzzleloader to fit your needs and those need/desires may not fit with someone else's ideas.Go for it.A Hawken styled gun with the lock on the left side and a shotgun butt plate.That special rifle is called adaptive equipment in the real world of 2023 and the opinions of naysayers don't count.
Bob Roller
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Hi Steve, I checked with them, and they don't have any in stock. They come from one foundry on Minnesota and everyone is waiting on them with no idea of a time frame for delivery.
Bob, thanks for the advice. I'm thinking this barrel and I are heading down this path.
Thanks again Guy
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. A left hand ENGLISH styled half stock flintlock rifle is not out of touch with reality and a better looking and handling gun than a Hawken.I have fired the Hawken that was marked Hoffman&Campbell at Tom Dawson's home in 1972 and another Bridger copy he made and then a half stock original Manton 16 gauge rifle
all in the same day and that Manton showed just how much those Hawken made guns lacked
Maybe they melt the steel (or iron) on the kitchen stove and it takes time.Be patient,very,very patient.
Bob Roller
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There is a major train wreck on this forum and it gives "Stumbling Buffalo"credit for my comparison of two authentic Hawken rifles with a top o the line English rifle.I don't care WHO gets the credit for the comparison of the guns but it proves my personal opinion that the electronic world needs more help and is fragile.
Bob Roller
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Just purchased a Hawken. Pulled the lock and triggers..........Sid Estep from 1976.
(https://i.ibb.co/TtW8q3d/IMG-2418.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kXm86Cv)
(https://i.ibb.co/dpJP0hN/IMG-2419.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zg1B6ZQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/ftXF5Cs/IMG-2420.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZKfXPh0)
(https://i.ibb.co/fMXKYVS/IMG-2417.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XXWdZf4)
[/quote
I just revisited this thread and the triggers are Sid Estep's work but that logo in the lock makes me think Schillinger which does no harm.
Sid used my signature pattern of a semi circle as seen on the triggers in his locks as well.
Bob Roller