AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: sydney on November 01, 2014, 01:36:45 AM
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hi--Lately I have doubted that groups of this size are possible barring the
lucky group we all get
For the following reasons I have my doubts but then I could be wrong
A ml barrel capable of lets say .125 c/c groups in a machine rest would be needed
I don t think there is many of them around
A ml stock is very poor for bench rest shooting
You would then load it with a cast ball,patch and blackpowder
all the above not the best or modern bench rest shooters would be using them
Sights--open tradition sight are about the poorest sight for bench rest shooting
You would have to be able to hold within a 1/2" circle at 100 yards using those sights
Not many of us have the eye sight or skill to do that
Then the trigger would have to be very good -then pulled
while holding in that 1/2 circle
I welcome reply s showing how I worng
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Sydney: you may be right! I have had some groups at 100 yards, using a longrifle with open sights and flint ignition, shoot three balls that cloverleaf, only to have # 4 and #5 leave the group. That is frustrating when you see the potential for a phenomenal target, only to have it go bust. Anymore, I am happy to keep them all in a 4" circle at 100 yards - and that's from a bench. As you have said, the eyes are not what they used to be. I've seen Daryl (who has always been a much better bench rest shooter than I) shoot five shots into 1 1/2 MOA at 100 yards, and less than one MOA at 200. But that was with an English sporter style percussion rifle.
I wouldn't be surprised to see your new ESR shoot into an inch at 100 m. !! It's a beauty.
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Since you didn't put limits on what constitutes a "ml rifle" (and without going beyond what the moderators allow), consider the accuracy obtained by the best chunk gun shooters or those shooting round ball bench competition.
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Have you looked at the groups shown in Ned Robert's book. Some are bullets, but they are still front loaders. Depending on the match, they shot 10-50 shot bench rested groups at 40 rods (200 meters) with a string measure(For you youngsters that's the total distance from the X center to each hole.) of 9-15 inches depending on the number of shots in a group. 20 shots with a string of 10 inches would be 10 divided by 20 for an average of .5 inches @200m. These weren't the 3-5 shot groups most people sight in with at 100yds.
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I shot a 1/2" group once. It was a one shot group with a .50 cal.
Wouldn't one need to be shooting a smaller caliber to achieve a 1/2" group?
Alternatively, one would have to shoot a 5 bull target and put each shot thru the X.
Guys at Friendship seem to do this with regularity. I think Steve Chapman is one of them.
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I think my best group measures .6 in across the edge of bullet to the extrem widest other edge of widest shot. This was with a 40 cal (.400 ball) at 53 paces. I know 100 yds. would be another story but a .2 in. group center to center isnt too shabby. I might also add that I still have the target even though it was shot 30+ years ago. I know that there were other shoters at that time and now who could do the same and better. Load development and proper bench shooting principles are paramount in shooting the small groups.
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You ought to go to Friendship where you would see that kind of shooting. They have matches all the way
out to 500 yds. They shoot like this all the time. Round ball 50 yds. This was shot last year.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi119.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo127%2Fprizzel%2FIMG_filtered.jpg&hash=85adbc46b9af55f01ca47434962a3d94bf3060df)
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hi--...
I welcome reply s showing how I worng
You ought to go to Friendship where you would see that kind of shooting. They have matches all the way
out to 500 yds. They shoot like this all the time. Round ball 50 yds. This was shot last year.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi119.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo127%2Fprizzel%2FIMG_filtered.jpg&hash=85adbc46b9af55f01ca47434962a3d94bf3060df)
Thank you Frizzen.
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Hi--I guess I wasn t clear on the type of rifle of was referring to
I was talking about a traditional full stock or English 1/2 stock
not your slug rifle using a false muzzle ect as in Roberts book
As I will never get to Friendship I will take your word for it
I do think that the it would be near impossible for your typical shooter
to go out and shoot a group that size
Thanks for the posts
Sydney
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Sydney, those sized groups are shot all the time with chunk gun style rifles. Thats traditional styled, open sights, no false muzzles. Good young eyes help alot but there are still some greybeards who still shoot that good.
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Never shot a beauty like that but came pretty close a few times, Shot several 49;s at 100 yds off cross sticks on the six bull targets. Open sights. Good eyes and an excellent sight picture. Careful loading, etc. It is more loading practice consistency than any thing. Many guns are capable, not many operators are.
My personal opinion, is that crappy sights are responsible for most inaccuracy.
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Hi- The above targets a truly world class shooting but there was no mention of
the rifle used or sights--chunk gun are also not the type of rifle you would go hunting with or a trail walk
Its very hard to tell but even the above targets might not make a 1/2
group if shot at 100 yrds
Sydney
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Right purty target, Frizzen. Yours? ;D
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If you look at the offhand scores at Friendship, they regularly shoot 49-50-4x six bulls at 25yds and 45-49 with an X or two at 50 yds. with percussion and flint. The percussion record is about 196pts with many Xes out of 200 on the National Agg. with flint only a few points behind. The six bull X ring is about .5in. The equipment we use is more capable than most of the shooters.
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I have changed to ec seen re barreled Tc guns shoot one hole groups at 50 yds
It is not a special type of gun necessary, but more the operator.
The post started out questioning whether capable with a muzzle loader. Then changed to exclude slug guns, and then chunk guns, which aren't much different but slightly heavier barrels. Yes a ml can do it. If it is limited to Spanish made carbines, perhaps not.
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I can recall doing a barrel for a guy who shot crosssticks at Friendship. It was a 40 cal.
with a 1/72 twist, and I believe he shot 80 grains of FFF. He shot a practice target
that looked like the ones shown above, drilled the X on each bull, he then put the same
target up the next day and slightly enlarged each hole......very impressive........Don
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start going to some of the large matches around the country, you WILL see these groups shot quite frequently.
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In my experience the "average" shooter couldn't shoot those groups with the best modern rifle and scope. Load development, consistency, eye sight, sights and trigger break. Get all of these to work in most any modern barreled rifle then some talent behind the trigger and you can get those groups on a good day. JMHO. Bob
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27 years ago, I could and did shoot groups like that. 50 yd off hand 50 4 X signed by the range officer. 49 4 X at 100 yds
shot from prone. I used both .45 and .54 flintlock rifles. At 61 years old, I can't shoot like that any more, but once in a while the stars line up and a 50 makes me smile !!! There were many matches where a 49 wouldn't place in the top 3
More than once we made the centre fire shooters take notice on trips to the range. If the wind cooperates, these rifles can shoot impressive scores. I'm never surprised when the average shooter today , used to scopes and cartridge rifles , doesn't believe the scores /targets turned in by muzzleloaders shooting round balls.
It helps that we actually do a lot of shooting i.e. practice , which is not something the instant gratification boys are familiar with. "Smart" scopes, i.e. he who spends the most $ , wins is something I see more and more of. Nothing p**s off a .338 Lapua guy more than showing up with a 45-100 Sharps and shooting 9's and 10's at 1000 yards.
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I have changed to ec seen re barreled Tc guns shoot one hole groups at 50 yds
It is not a special type of gun necessary, but more the operator.
The post started out questioning whether capable with a muzzle loader. Then changed to exclude slug guns, and then chunk guns, which aren't much different but slightly heavier barrels. Yes a ml can do it. If it is limited to Spanish made carbines, perhaps not.
Then modified to be a "typical" shooter w a gun to be used hunting or on a trail walk. $#*!, a typical shooter can't do 1/2" @ 100 yds w a MODERN bench rig.
A good ML with good sights, good load for that gun, shot by a good shooter (young eyes) in good conditions .... Possible. I got a 13/16 barrel .40 full stock open sight rifle under 1" ctc +~ 25 years ago.
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Bob in the Woods, your right. i too have been shooting ML rifles in competition for 35yrs. i too have shot several 50's at 25yds & 50yds off hand. with the same rifle i hunted with. and i practiced every evening after work shooting at least 25 rounds per session. we know it can be done and is done at the Nationals every year.
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I agree that many good, traditional ML rifles can shoot under moa for groups. However, most shooters cannot; I'm among them. Being close to 70yoa my eyes get worse by the year. Years ago I habitually fired groups 1/4" to 1/3" from a rest with a few of my scope sighted center fires. Less than 15 years ago I fired several 50 yard groups of around 3/4" with different longrifles/calibers and most were from field positions and not always benched. Of course I could do that with revolvers, too, way back then.
Now the best I can do is about 4" at 100 yards and I seem to do best when sitting or standing (braced when standing); benching usually doesn't work for me. I can still hit a broadside deer at 100 yards and a squirrel in the head at 25 yards and that's enough to satisfy me, nowadays.
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:o
Now the best I can do is about 4" at 100 yards and I seem to do best when sitting or standing (braced when standing); benching usually doesn't work for me. I can still hit a broadside deer at 100 yards and a squirrel in the head at 25 yards and that's enough to satisfy me, nowadays.
Hanshi, I could learn to put up with that. Now if I could just learn to do that!
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........There were many matches where a 49 wouldn't place in the top 3........
That's right. I shot a 49 2 X about 5 years ago at the Florida State Shoot and finished 7th.
Mole Eyes
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About 1992 I shot a 50 XXX at 50 yards and came in 4th. I did get my 50 pin and patch tho.
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We have a fellow in our club that shot a 50XXXXX at Friendship, offhand with a flintlock. That's now on his license plate!
Mark
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saw 10 shot groups shot a 60 yards be Griffith -eddington -grimm- krumme myself that were 60 cal hole.this was using chunk guns with crude sights.their are world recods in official matches where the total 10 shot match string is 2.4 inchs 2.47 2.5 inches 2.57 .yes old round ball muzzle loaders can be very accurate .
look at the scores at the 50 and 100 yard round ball berch rest at friendship 50 5x at both yardages.neal shot a 49 at 200
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And we won't even get into the 100 yard pistol matches at Friendship.
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Bob, I'm from the old 600 yd outhouse Elmer Keith days myself.
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Hi-it appears that smaller groups are possibly that I realized
I would like to know how big the 10 ring and X ring are
on a 100 yard target ??
Thanks for all the posts
Sydney
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you want a half inch group with a ml, here you go. It was a inline with a leupold 14 power scope. .45 cal barrel, 500 grain hollow point.
Now to get back to traditional rifles. Most rifles will never shoot even a MOA at 100 yards. You can not simply take a 50 yard target and double that group size thinking you can shoot that at 100 yards. It just don't happen.
With my traditional English rifles I can shoot a sub or right at MOA at 100 yards. I have never shot a 5 inch group at 500 yards, or a 10" group at 1,000 yards.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi161.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft209%2Fsnapper245%2Flong%2520range%2520rifle%2Ftargets%2FDSCN2341_zps6a796811.jpg&hash=354602056860e98fc3c08e4736ccfa2f9fe2ffd4) (http://s161.photobucket.com/user/snapper245/media/long%20range%20rifle/targets/DSCN2341_zps6a796811.jpg.html)
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I should mention that the inline was a custom job by my buddy Rick Weber. Took a GM .45 barrel and machined it to fit the pieces and parts of a TC.
Fleener
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Thanks Taylor.
Trying to be civil here, sometimes it's difficult - pain does that to me.
Fella's, you have to know "sydney" better - he welcomes someone to attempt to prove" his opinion" is wrong, until they do offer that which he seems to seek - then he refuses to acknowledge that "his opinion" might be wrong. It happens on the nitroexpress forum as well. This forum, this topic, is no different. Ask him how many shots he's actually fired from a muzzleloading rifle - with any sight.
TOF - a 1/2" hole in a target is NOT a 1/2" group - a group requires more than 1 shot - ie: GROUP - more than 1. Groups are measured Centre to Centre of the two farthest distanced shots in the group. That is the group's measure.
I guess Taylor's and my 2 1/2" groups at 200yards are also not possible - well, perhaps you need more practice - with a muzzleloader.
I will totally agree with your statement, sydney, that the average shooter cannot shoot a 1" or 1 1/2" group at 100yards with open sights. One gun rag many years ago, noted that about 4" was what the "average" shooter could do with open sights. I think they were referring to modern rifles with modern coarse sights VERY close together, not rifles with fairly long barrels and good sights.
The open sights I use on that 9 1/2 pound rifle really shot well for me, for many years. I actually practiced with it all one winter, just a few winters ago. I used it in 5 matches at Hefley Creek that August and won 5 first places. I'm not bragging - please don't think that - what happened is fact, pure and simple- THAT is an amazing rifle that is easy to shoot well, IF you can soak up a bit of recoil. According to my program, the recoil of it's accuracy load was around 64 FPE. The recoil speed is slow, but the gun does move a bit- moves you too- but- it shoots.
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Hi- The above targets a truly world class shooting but there was no mention of
the rifle used or sights--chunk gun are also not the type of rifle you would go hunting with or a trail walk
Its very hard to tell but even the above targets might not make a 1/2
group if shot at 100 yrds
Sydney
is it now a 1/2" group?
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TOF - a 1/2" hole in a target is NOT a 1/2" group - a group requires more than 1 shot - ie: GROUP - more than 1. Groups are measured Centre to Centre of the two farthest distanced shots in the group. That is the group's measure.
Daryl,
Sometimes satire is lost on all but the most intelligent members of a group.
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If one shot made a group then I have shot many 1/2" groups with my .50. Someday I might get around to firing the second and third shots. LOL
Mark
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Hi Daryl--I have no idea if it s a 1/2" group as i can t measure it
Also it s at 50 yards and no mention of rifle or sights ect
You have been quite on this issue-whats your opinion on
this subject ???
Sydney
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Sydney, calculations and everything else aside--I believe one of your initial statements was that a ML barrel was not capable of 1/2" groups--not sure exactly sure where that information comes from. But here is a fact--my Hawken .62 caliber flint rifle with an Ed Rayl barrel shot a one hole 3-shot group from the bench at 25 yards and that group measured .72 inches at the widest part, and these were the first 3 shots fired from that rifle. I suspect that it will only get better and I know that 25 yards is not the same as 100, but I suspect that it will be possible to shoot a one hole group at 100 also. Oh, and yes, it will never shoot a 1/2 inch group, since I am shooting a .610 ball.
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Some are missing the distinction between a 1/2" group and a 1/2" hole.
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Hi Daryl--- O K I will settle for sub moa 100 yrd 5 shots
which you have claimed on several sites
As I have asked several times before please post targets
Sydney
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I don't really think some of you know how to measure group size. The size of the hole has nothing to
do with it!
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Exactly!
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I don't really think some of you know how to measure group size. The size of the hole has nothing to
do with it!
I concur!
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I can understand why you would not know what the size of bulls-eyes are on common targets. One would actually have to shoot at a range with a rifle to know that. I'll give a hint- if 2 .5 bullets are touching, those 2 bullets comprise a C to C group of less than 1/2", as those balls will not make a full 1/2"hole. It will be close, but that only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and tit fights, not in group measurement.
Here is a 6 shot group that measures around .375" - that's 3/8", in case you didn't know. It was fired at 100 meters with a modern rifle. I post this just so you know what an under 1" group looks like. What is your opinion on what size a guy has to hold, to shoot a 3/8" group. I also have groups under 1/4"- wanna see them too? The bottom group in the picture is the target that came with the rifle.
As I noted in previous posts in this forum, Brad had all my targets form the .69, from when he owned it for a while. As you well know, he died and my targets are in his 'stuff' somewhere. That is why you are demanding them here - you already know I no longer have them.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F17%2520HMR%2FHornettestand1stscopedtarget_zps2b452c43.jpg&hash=907a67dac6807908a0b4c0ec09b43a211cfef862) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/17%20HMR/Hornettestand1stscopedtarget_zps2b452c43.jpg.html)
BTW- I have NEVER said I've shot under in inch with my .69 at 100yards or meters. I have however shot under 1/2" at 50 yards - piece of cake with accurate rifles.
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;D I'll get the popcorn! ;D
John
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"Sergeant, what is the effective range of this weapon?"
"A lot farther than the operator's effective range, private." :D
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Hi Daryl--Please don t resort to personal attacks--I must mention your claim
on Nitro Express and I quote on 25/10 14 "1/2 groups time and time again using a 45-3 1/4 " Personal insults, modern groups,5 1 st place in events
with no boosting none of this supports your claims of small 100 yrds groups
Just post some decent targets and I will go away quietly
Sydney
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Yeah - that was Taylor shooting those groups with his .45 3-1/4" - and edited by Dennis
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Bless their hearts, some people just dont have a clue....... Daryl, keep up the good work. I personally have learned alot from you.
topknot
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Bob, I'm from the old 600 yd outhouse Elmer Keith days myself.old usmc still hold few 500 & 1000 yard records watched those guys shoot pistols at friendship .I could not beat them with a rifle offhand. it is fun to watch world class shooter in action.
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This thread is now locked
Dennis