AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: WadePatton on January 04, 2015, 10:46:07 PM
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This line of thought split off from the thread:
Topic: On weighing round balls (Lots of them!)
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=33708.msg324465#msg324465 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=33708.msg324465#msg324465)
....Bottom pour casting pot? Gave up on them over 20 years ago. They simply will not create a quality bullet. Very difficult to flux...
Dan,
Exactly my experience. Using a bottom pour pot is a PITA compared to casting balls by dipping...
I plugged the bottom pour feature many years ago as well and only dip bullets and balls.
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Well I missed this nugget over the years. My bottom-pour pot likes to plug itself up anyway. When i get the timing and lift -just right- it's great. But that generally only lasts for a short run. I've never used a dipper*, but will give that a go next time. Getting that apparatus out of the way will be welcomed.
Hey no more drip art. ::)
Any other thoughts on the matter?
*I used to be a dipper--but that was a nicotine thing. :P
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I tried a bottom pour once, I poured the first two bullets in a double cavity mold and set it aside to warm up a bit. A couple min. later my pot had drained out the bottom on to the old table I was using. I put the bottom pour pot away and never used it again. I know others have had the same thing happen too.
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I've cast balls & bullets with both dipping and bottom pour. Have to say I can't tell any difference in quality. I prefer bottom pour in general. Get to know your bp pot, keep an eye on it and it will cast a large volume of ball pretty quick.
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I agree with Hanshi. Have had very few problems and good quality balls.
Mark
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I have a bottom pour furnace and its a pain to keep from leaking and I don't think it casts consistent balls. I much prefer to use a regular post with an old Lyman bottom pour ladle. It works best for me.
Dennis
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How about casting RB for a Bess? Those dippers don't seem to be big enough to fill a .690 to .735 mold in a single dip. Any recommendations?
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Barlow's Tackle Express has some larger ladles and also have the hot pot 2 electric pot.
Holds 4 lb and you can pour straight from the pot.
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How about casting RB for a Bess? Those dippers don't seem to be big enough to fill a .690 to .735 mold in a single dip. Any recommendations?
I cast .600 balls with this one and don't even fill it. It should work for .690 to .735. http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/casting-dipper.php
Mole Eyes
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Trent you could use a feed scoop to dip those .735s. Should be enough lead to fill the mold.
TC
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I got tired of my bottom pour dripping while warming up so I bent a hacksaw blade to clip over the spout. Now it doesn't drip. Still drips a little while pouring, but I put a pie tin under it and just put the drips back in the pot. It pours a consistent ball when the heat is right. Anyway, I can only pour about 100 before my carpal tunnel acts up.
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The deer around here are not fond of my bottom pour at all.
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When I was using a bottom pour unit, I clamped a vise grip on to the handle end to give it more weight, which helped with the seal i.e. preventing drips. It wasn't the best for long range bullets though; the weights varied too much. Since switching to a dipper and a 10 inch, by 2 inch deep iron skillet, I wouldn't go back. I cast bullets for long range cartridge rifle, and large balls for my 10 bore, as well as smaller ones for my .40 cal . Lots of lead to dip from, holds the heat well, and it's easy to flux and clean afterwards. When done, I can let it cool, then simply knock out the hardened stuff, and switch alloys [ 1:20 lead /tin for bullets, pure lead for rifle balls or wheel weight lead for smoothbore if I want ]
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I have also used bottom pour and dipper pour. I have had the drippy bottom pour spout. When using the bottom pour,I found that some molds liked to be tight against the sprue while others liked to have the lead dumped from a distance. I settled on the dipper, which for me had better control for both situations. Different strokes I guess.
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I'll wager these dippers would fill a mighty large mold. AND you can make one yourself. Thanks to Jeff Tanner.
http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/docs/Lead_Dipper.pdf
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As I was first deciding on what kind of pot to buy, I did alot of research on what the pros and conns were on what type was best for my purpose of runnin ball and from what I had read ,I bought a lyman 20 lb. dipper model and I have been totally satisfied since day one after I learned several lessons on casting. Top dip for me.
topknot
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I have a RCBS 20lb. bottom pour, had it for about ten years. I would buy it all over again, excellent results. When the "rhythm"is on doing over 200 balls an hour. I then grade all balls with PACT digital scale, weighed to within .1 grain. I get about 75% to 80% good ones keeping everything within 1.5 grain. Anything above or below gets remelted. Sometimes a run yields 75 to 80% within 1.0 grain. We shoot competitively so reason for being so picky. Another thing we do is drill a very tiny tiny hole into one of the half molds so as to get a indicator mark on the balls. We then use this small "tit" on the ball for reference when loading , putting each ball into the barrel the same way every time we load. Anybody getting a consistent higher positive grade out when casting? Steve
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I've simply never tried dipping and do see how i could save a lot of time recycling drips and fluxing/cleaning and changing alloy. I could always fix it back to bottom pour.
Making and/or tweaking dippers to match my needs will be fun too.
Thanks for the counterpoints. Looks like everyone has to find his own best option. If i was running gang moulds and fishing weights...I'd keep using old Leaky. ;)
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At 16 years old, my first bottom pour pot was 2 tons – 4,000 lbs. I worked in a typesetting plant and my job was to collect all the lino slugs and recast the ingots (aka ‘pigs’). Believe me that pot didn’t do much leaking. Fluxing and cleaning the dross was key to keeping the valve working. A lot of $#@* in that lead, cigarette butts, spit and miscellaneous dirt and paper made its way in.
In the early years I used a cast iron pot and hand dipped. When money got a little better, I picked up a bottom pour pot and never had an issue with it. Keeping the mould in contact with the spout for a few seconds before closing the valve helps fill the cavity. But ultimately you should use what give best results; after all that’s what we want, good balls or bullets by any reasonable method.
True confessions: as a kid, I tried straight lino for muzzle loaders. The patched ball was only slightly forgiving in a rifle, but dang - not in a .36 Navy… oh the horror of it all. Lead was cheap and I collected a stash of pure lead to use for muzzle loaders.
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Of the several National Champions of BPCR Silhouette I know none use a bottom pour pot.
The gate pressure when the mould is held against the spout will cause excess filling with fins at the vent lines and maybe even at the bullet base on base pour moulds.
I could never get them to cast clean bullets. I even went so far as to bead blast one pot to clean it. But still no amount of fluxing would keep dirt out of the bullets and shooting dirty bullets is a bad idea not to mention the inconsistency.
I have a Lyman MagDipper I bought 20+ years ago and its very consistent in its heat control and easy to flux. I don't use it much anymore, doing less lead bullet shooting but its till on the job.
Wish I had a ton of Linotype for handgun bullets.
Dan
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Years ago I had a Lee bottom pour pot. Had all the same problems discussed above. I removed the spout pin and tapped a couple of threads into the spout. I then threaded in a riser pipe (about 1" long) to the pot which now allowed the lead to pour from the lower middle of the pot instead of directly from the bottom. This eliminated all the dirt and foreign material and worked fairly well. I sold the pot to upgrade to a Lyman. Big mistake, but the "upgrade" did cause me to startusing a ladle, which I am forever grateful. Anybody need a Lyman 10 lb. lead pot? ::)
David
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I got a bottom pour pot several years ago. I've only used it a couple of times, cast a few hundred balls, but I have had none of the problems you guys have had. Sounds like alot of the problems are stemming from dirty lead or not running the pot hot enough.
I premelt my lead, flux it good, skim it, and pour it into ingots( 4 cavity lyman mold.) Then I remelt it and cast my balls. I seem to get out all the crud in the ingot forming phase.
My cache of .48 cal balls is dwindling so I suppose I should break out the pot and pour a few. I'll let you know if I have any problems.
Hessian
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You know, for ingots and such-one can cast in hardwood. Not quickly, nor without scorching the wood a little, but you can mould up whatever shape you can carve. Saw the video, haven't done it.
The BP pot I have was given to me well-used. It's an old Lee brand. I've dumped and scraped and scraped and fluxed and cleaned and fluxed and scraped and cleaned it until it was a spotless as it'll ever be again.
Then I melted roof lead into it.
In the voice of Fred Sandford, YOU BIG DUMMY!
Even though I washed and brushed that lead off, it brought a lot of dirt into the pot again.
That's a lesson unto itself. For anyone slow on the uptake (as I can be), the lesson is clean your lead in a different pot to avoid funking up your casting pot-especially if BP.
I've had no problem making many great and true balls, but getting the fill speed/duration right isn't easy, and leakage tends to happen and the spout clogs. I've made a lot of rejects too, that's just how it works.
I want to try dipping primarily for the mould fill control. Should be very easy to develop a rhythm that is not interrupted by frequent re-cleaning the lead/pot/spout. Also, dipping allows one to employ _any_ suitable pot and heat source. One might even go fireside* with it and drag out his bagmoulds.
*free of utility charges.
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Wade, get yourself a 10" steel wok to clean your dirty lead in (clean it a few times). Then go to your bottom pour pot you will not get the "stoppages" or "drips" as often. I gave up on my bottom pour Lee pot 35 years ago. I us a 20 LB propane plumbers tank with burner and two 40 LB cast iron pots to dip from. I used 6, 8 & 10 cavity H&G molds and could cast 5,000 - 200 gr .45 bullets in 4 to 6 hrs. Dipping is the only way to go if you make a lot of bullets ;).
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bottom pourers
take a real sharp knife and cut 10 balls in half and see what you get .surprise air bubbles inside the ball.check put back issues of muzzle blasts where infamous bevel brother tested it out.
dag
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I have both of Lee's lead pots, the bottom pour and the dip with ladle pot.
I get better results with the dip pot than the bottom pour.
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Casting newbie here, but how does ladling vs bottom pouring affect the presence, or lack thereof, of air bubbles in the mold/finished ball?
I'm sure not disputing anything, as I know diddly squat....just looking to understand a bit better.
Thanks!
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Just guessing here but I'm of the mind that turbulence can be greater when using a bottom pour as the velocity of the flow can be quite high with pounds of lead pushing down on it. This could create entrained air or bubbles that don't escape the mould before the lead solidifies around them.
Or something like that.
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When I cast, I like to tilt the mold slightly to one side when I start the pour and then right it or square it to finnish the pour. By doing so hope to get rid of some of the air in the cavity through the spru hole. Dont know if this realy helps any but this is the way I do it be it right or wrong.
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it is volume of lead going into the mold .with a dipper you flood the cavity and then keep pour on the sprue keeping everything liquid. when you use bottom pour you get much smaller stream allowing some to set up very quickly .their is where you get the bubbles.
dag
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My bottom pour pots, a Lyman, a Saeco and Lee, all spewed out lead with great force. I suspect the high speed lead swirrling inside the mould cavities, tended to cause voids, VSaVIS a gentle pour from a ladle does not. This is theory.
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I agree dyral the other was the larger amount that came out of the hole in dipper fill ing cavity faster-then the real trick continue pouring the whole lade over the sprue.keeps thew sprue and metal in mold liquid longer and as metal in mold hardens at bootom it keeps sucking more hot liquid metal into the void giving a solider cast.
dag
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I run my mold hot. Six seconds to freeze on the sprue.
Never had an issue with fill out, or voids.
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30+ years w a bottom pour. I don't let the mold touch the spout on my bottom pour. Keep the mold tilted slightly till full then level for a good puddle. Takes a few seconds for puddle to solidify. I usually pour ten, lay the mold on top of the pot, flex the arthritis fingers, run the cooled ten over scale and start over. Not a real high production rate but not in a hurry either.
Have to clean the bottom pour periodically. Think I'll get separate pot to clean and make ingots.
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Been casting with my Lee bottom pour pot for over 35 years. Started out with casting .54 Lee improved minie's, and have gone on to a variety of roundballs, and other bullets.
A bottom pour pot doesn't take any special skill to run properly, but you need to flux occasionally, and to clean the valve a few times per year. I quit using a dipper and cast iron pot over 3 decades ago & never saw any need to return to using it.
I run my molds Hot, and have never had any problems with casting voids or irregularities.