AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Majorjoel on January 11, 2015, 04:53:20 PM
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All I can say is that there are several items listed here that are sure to gather our interests! The Peter Berry rifle is very fine as well as the photo's of the powder horns shown.http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/americana-n09300/lot.844.html
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Hi Joel,
Thanks for the post. The horn is incredible and so is that nice Berry rifle. Beyond the beautiful stock and carving, notice how much barrel is exposed, particularly at the muzzle. The side walls of that barrel channel must be pretty shallow.
dave
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Very nice indeed but appears to have been shortened.
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Howdy Dave! Yes indeed. I find it to be near miraculous that those narrow stocked barrel forearms have survived well over 200 years. Well, some better than others! I really like the powder horn's "scrawled out drawings" showing the details in a two dimensional form. This would make for a nice recreation of this great map horn without having to drain one's estate.....sell the farm......cash in all the chips....shake down your rich uncle! ;D
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Yes, nice rifle indeed!
Joel, the scrawled out horn drawing was done by Rufus Alexander Grider (1817-1900), as Revolution, no. 70, in his book of water colors by him. I believe,,, I think, those have been reproduced several years ago and should be available if you search around.
John
PS. Ooops, I'm thinking of the Hartley horn drawings!
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Thanks John, I think my good friend Rick Lorenzen has a copy of the Hartley drawings book. He would be my go to guy to make a fair representation of such a powder horn.
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That is an insanely short Peter Berry rifle. My guess is that it was at least blown out once and shortened. In contrast, the one in my possession is almost six feet in total length.
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Breadhead, you wouldn't be so kind as to show us a few pictures of your Peter Berry rifle. :-* I have always been drawn to his unique style and artistry. ON another note with this auction. I also noticed the Tim Tansel powder horn a few clicks to the right. It says ca. 1825. It is a real screamer!
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http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20788.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20788.0) ;D
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Absolutely stunning! I have been in awe of that rifle since seeing it in the museum back when it was first placed there! Thank you breadhead for bringing it back and the details of it's extreme overall length. :) I would say a very early P. Berry SR.
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Regarding Sotheby's Tim Tansel powder horn at auction... it was in Jim Dresslar's collection for a number of years, and one of his favorite horns. Jim always wanted to believe it was carved while Lafayette was making his reunion tour of the United States in the 1824-1826 era or thereabouts, and he personally dated it as such. In reality, Tim Tansel's earliest dated horns are 1836...perhaps he made an earlier one, but one that's dated "1836" has a "No. 1" on it which seems to identify it as his first "professional" horn, and its carving would support the assumption since the work is very early for Tim. The Lafayette horn would likely date to the 1836 era, but probably not earlier based on the quality of the carving, i.e. development of the figures, shading technique, etc. on the horn, which is better than on his earliest known horns. It's a nice little horn, re-plugged if I recall correctly, but not quite as early as Dresslar thought it was. There are several known Tansel horns with verses referencing Gen. Lafayette, and a number of other horns with verses about other significant American military heroes. Virtually all are commemorative and made well after the hero earned his stripes.
Shelby Gallien
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Breadhead,
Looking at your Berry rifle is like gazing on a beautiful woman, it really is. It's my favorite American longrifle. Truly I think the most artistic rifle I've seen and I've seen a lot of them. There was a Berry rifle at Julia and I wanted it so bad I could taste it, but I'm in the middle of making sure the next generation of my family gets an education. Gotta have one of those some day. Thanks for letting us common folk see it.
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I'm not so sure this gun has been drastically shortened. The barrel is 40 1/2" long, and the gun is dated 1836. I would suspect barrels had started to get shorter by this time.
Hungry Horse
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HH, I believe you got Berry Jr's date of death (1836) mixed up with the rifle's estimated build date (ca.1820). I would have to see the rifle in hand to determine if it has been shortened. The few pictures and the strange angles that they were taken make it very difficult to really get a true feel for the auction rifle.
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Was over at my father's tonight and pulled a tape across our P. Berry. OAL is 62.25 inches, with a barrel length of 46 inches. Just FYI.
Oh, and this just doesn't even look like the same hand:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi708.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww81%2FALRLIBRARY%2FBerry%2520Peter%2520120221-1%2F120221-2%2FKentuckyRifles050.jpg&hash=f102ec3e4ed31c011d44b8a88e6eee7da2d81f6e)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7BQwemZ.jpg&hash=d58d084ec0e1f737679ad251ccf70e6eebe6a4d2)
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Uh oh!
-Ron
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The initials on the lock were just as bad. A shame it's a nice rifle.
Buck
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Did the Berry sell at the auction?
Al
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NO
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NO
Would you care to elaborate on that NO?
Didn't meet reserve? No bids? Pulled from auction? Etc?
John
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I don't know about the Berry rifle, but that Capt. John Graham powder horn sure went for some big bucks! I often ponder if our little discussions around here sometimes make or break some of these auctions. ::)
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JTR, I apologise, I hit a wrong button. A friend of mine was following that particular lot (Berry Rifle) and he sent me a message stating that it did not sell. That's all I know.
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Was over at my father's tonight and pulled a tape across our P. Berry. OAL is 62.25 inches, with a barrel length of 46 inches. Just FYI.
Oh, and this just doesn't even look like the same hand:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi708.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww81%2FALRLIBRARY%2FBerry%2520Peter%2520120221-1%2F120221-2%2FKentuckyRifles050.jpg&hash=f102ec3e4ed31c011d44b8a88e6eee7da2d81f6e)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7BQwemZ.jpg&hash=d58d084ec0e1f737679ad251ccf70e6eebe6a4d2)
Does not even look like the same century.
But I am a notorious cynic. Or something.
Dan
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I have watched this thread and I have been reluctant to comment on it. The rifle up for auction was undoubtedly a Peter Berry. It also, like so many of our beloved rifles, has had some restoration. I am not opposed to good honest restoration, I feel and I have always felt that a good rifle that is somewhat of a wreck should be preserved as close to its original state as possible. I know that there are strong feelings on both sides of this argument and. do not want to cause a fuss here on this thread about that. What I do not like is anything that is done to represent something that it is not. In this case the rifle speaks for itself, the carving, patch box, stock architecture all shout Berry. So why fake a signature, and a poor fake at that? I know that everyone that has posted late in this thread has implied that the signature is not correct and has been trying to be politically correct by not calling it a fake, but the signature is what it is and that is a fake.
Now I am not trying to say that the man that has this rifle up for auction is dishonest or that the man that did the work was trying to be dishonest. It only becomes dishonest when the restoration work is not disclosed and is known by the seller and not relayed to the buyer. We are a relatively small group and we need to stand together to encourage honesty.
The rifle is a very nice rifle and I would love to have it in my collection even with the bad signature, it is still a Peter Berry.
Thanks for letting me rant a little, and i mean no disrespect to the owner or future buyers or guys that do restoration work. ???
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Bama, If I owned that rifle that name would disappear along with what appears to be bad welding..LP
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Thanks for letting me rant a little, and i mean no disrespect to the owner or future buyers or guys that do restoration work. ???
I just shake my head when I look at that signature and wonder what the $#@ was the person thinking when they attempted to put that on there? Here you had a beautiful firearm and you need to deface it with that sort of amateur experimentation? some people do need a kick in the pants at times and this is a good example of one of them in my opinion. ... what did they use to make that signature a dull ring shank nail or an electric engraver??