AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: AZshooter on January 24, 2015, 04:59:54 AM
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I've been using my blend of beef tallow + beeswax patch lube for over 40 years. I've tried about everything else, and while some recipes are as good, none have been any better ... until a few weeks ago.
I got some castor oil. Straight from the bottle into a patch, and it produces an incredible amount of fouling that is difficult to clean. But when mixed as 1 part castor oil to 5 parts denatured alcohol, patches are moistened with it and allowed to dry.
The dry-feeling patch loads easily and smoothly, and leaves no residue to accumulate fouling.
I pour about 20 balls into a little tray when shooting from a bench, and realized that, after about a dozen shots fired that I hadn't swabbed out the bore yet, and each PRB was easy to load. I swabbed the barrel anyway and got very little fouling on the patch.
There was no change in accuracy of the rifle with these patches, and clean-up was easier than ever.
Guess it's time to relegate the old tallow & beeswax blend to use with the cap & ball revolvers; I'll use the castor oil patches in all my rifles and muskets from now on.
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May just have to try that :)
geo.
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Would 93% rubbing alcohol work just as well with the oil? I have made up some patchs with 1 part neets foot oil and 4 parts alcohol and some with the same ration with olive oil,have not tried them yet. Do you think Castor Oil would work better than this mixture? I also have some patchs with straight oil soaked( with olive & Neets foot) and squeezed out over night in a vise.Will try them in a few days.
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It might. Rubbing alcohol is typically about 30% water which will evaporate more slowly than the alcohol. The advantage I see is that the denatured alcohol will dissipate faster. I'd use paint-store denatured alcohol. I think I'll give this a try. It might eliminate or reduce the squeezing out part of lubing patches.
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I agree denatured alcohol may evaporate faster but i think 93% alcohol only has 3% water.So maybe let the patch dry longer.
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When castor oil burns, it forms a stiff varnish-like buildup - that would be very difficult indeed, to clean, as you found out when using it straight-up.
Unlike most other oils, natural and synthetic, castor oil mixes well with alcohol. It is what I use in my model airplane engines - but up to 20%.
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I noticed that about castor oil lube. Was using it mixed with denatured at about 1/7. The fired patches were oddly crispy. Almost like a potato chip but much chewier.
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You want degummed castor oil. The regular stuff will form a coating in the bore that will be difficult to remove as noted in a previous post.
This takes me back to my control line scale model airplane days in the 1950s and 1960s.
Mad Monk
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Not much different than what I have been using for the last 10 years,except I use water and varying amounts of water soluable oil, just like the castor oil is. Its called the Dutch Schoultz method. Nothing new inthe muzzle loading world.
topknot
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I must be missing something here...why dry out the patch? ...or squeeze out the lubricant that you need in the bore?
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I must be missing something here...why dry out the patch? ...or squeeze out the lubricant that you need in the bore?
I'm thinking maybe the excess oil would soak into the powder. Maybe everyone is thinking about Dutchs method of lubing patchs,I myself am open for any suggestions I'll try most anything.
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You want degummed castor oil. The regular stuff will form a coating in the bore that will be difficult to remove as noted in a previous post.
This takes me back to my control line scale model airplane days in the 1950s and 1960s.
Mad Monk
Mad Monk,
I guess the castor oil you can buy in the drugstore isn't degummed? Where can one buy the degummed version? Thanks?
Mole Eyes
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I've used Hoppes 9+ at the range with similar results. It's about 7 bucks for a bottle that'll last a fairly long while.
I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am curious-- is there a benefit to the homemade lubes that folks make over something like Hoppes 9? I found it to shoot to the same POI as my bear greased patches and to let me shoot a lot with relatively little fouling. Just seems easier than a home brew, and not horribly expensive, but I'm always willing to learn if I'm missing something! :)
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Why buy something when you can make it????
I have been experimenting a lot lately with different patch lubes always looking for the Holy Grail who knows maybe one will show up some day. The rifle that I'm using has a Bill Large barrel and I have been shooting 30 years+. The dry patching does shoot well in this rifle as long as the patching is not too dry. Most of last year I used a mix of 6/1 water and Ballistol but over the winter I notice that the Ballistol has dried out and my accuracy went south. So seeing this thread I tried the 5/1 alcohol and Castor oil and it shot very well for me maybe not quite as accurate as the fresh Ballistol mix but plenty good enough for offhand shooting with a open sighted flintlock. So thinking that the Castor oil might not dry out as fast as the Ballistol (time will tell on that) I thought about a mix that I had made up recently which is Stumpy's Stump Juice. I had used this as a dry patching lube and it works well enough but then I decided to try some dry patching and then squirt some of the Stump Juice on the dry patching material WOW that really shot great cut my 50 yards groups in half and shot fully on par with anything that I have done with Teflon patching. All of this testing is done over a solid rest trying to eliminate as much of my shooting errors as possible, more experimenting to follow!
RB
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[quote Unlike most other oils, natural and synthetic, castor oil mixes well with alcohol. It is what I use in my model airplane engines - but up to 20%.
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Unless I am mistaken, a mixture of one part castor oil to five parts alcohol is 20 %. Still, a mix like this or neets foot oil merit consideration. Keep yer powder dry.......Robin ???
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I too use 1 Ballistol:6 H20, but keep the patches damp (I squeeze the excess liquid out prior to loading.) and have no problems with it. In colder weather, I add 1 part 90% isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol to prevent freeze up between shots. Although I've never tried Stumpy's Moose Juice, I have brewed some of his Moose Snot and really like it. Depending on powder charge and relative humidity, I can get anywhere between 5 -12 shots before I need to [dry] swab my bbl. Btw,I tried Dutch Schoultz's dry patch method years ago and wasn't bowled over by it. It's wet patches almost exclusively for me now.
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I must be missing something here...why dry out the patch? ...or squeeze out the lubricant that you need in the bore?
A 'dry' patch contains contains sufficient lubrication to slide down the bore with minimal friction, yet not so much oil/lubricant that it leaves an excessive coating to combine with powder fouling to produce the bore choking residue we all need to swab out after a few rounds fired. You really don't need a soggy patch that contains a great amount of lube, when only a little is needed.
I was impressed that after more shots than I've ever been to successively load and fire without any swabbing, that when I finally did swab the bore, it was clean enough that I could use the same patch later to swab again prior to leaving the range. There was no difficult to remove polymerized oil in the bore, and cleaning was quicker, using fewer patches than I've ever used before.
As mentioned before, I always highly regarded my tallow & beeswax blend for patch lube, but it does leave sufficient residue in the bore to build fouling quickly. The oil dissolved in a solvent, leaving a light application in patch fibers allows me to fire more successive rounds than ever before, with no appreciable fouling. I'm happy wit the results, and plan on using it exclusively in my rifled barrels, as well as smoothbores.
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A 'dry' patch contains contains sufficient lubrication to slide down the bore with minimal friction, yet not so much oil/lubricant that it leaves an excessive coating to combine with powder fouling to produce the bore choking residue we all need to swab out after a few rounds fired. You really don't need a soggy patch that contains a great amount of lube, when only a little is needed.
What Taylor says is true.
You are talking some foreign language here - difficult to understand - we all use very wet patches, most use something like Neetsfoot oil mixed in WWWF or by itself and we never have to swab out any choking residue - as there is no residue except for that fouling left by the previous shot - it does not build up - ever and we shoot from 20 to 100 shots, depending on the match or course of fire, no wiping - ever.
Thus, this choking residue must be something foreign - maybe it's only common to South of the 49th? - it sure doesn't happen here and we have humidity running from 7% up to 85/90%- got to be pouring rain for that to happen. I have noticed that the dryer it is, the more quickly the damp fouling from the previous shot dries out. But - the patch around the next ball is wet enough to soften that fouling and push it down below the patch as the next patched ball cleans the previous shot.
We use very wet patches that seem not to bother the charge, either. Our entire black powder section loads as we do, including our women and kids. That is why we just cannot understand all this talk of having to wipe, at all.
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A 'dry' patch contains contains sufficient lubrication to slide down the bore with minimal friction, yet not so much oil/lubricant that it leaves an excessive coating to combine with powder fouling to produce the bore choking residue we all need to swab out after a few rounds fired. You really don't need a soggy patch that contains a great amount of lube, when only a little is needed.
What Taylor says is true.
You are talking some foreign language here - difficult to understand - we all use very wet patches, most use something like Neetsfoot oil mixed in WWWF or by itself and we never have to swab out any choking residue - as there is no residue except for that fouling left by the previous shot - it does not build up - ever and we shoot from 20 to 100 shots, depending on the match or course of fire, no wiping - ever.
Thus, this choking residue must be something foreign - maybe it's only common to South of the 49th? - it sure doesn't happen here and we have humidity running from 7% up to 85/90%- got to be pouring rain for that to happen. I have noticed that the dryer it is, the more quickly the damp fouling from the previous shot dries out. But - the patch around the next ball is wet enough to soften that fouling and push it down below the patch as the next patched ball cleans the previous shot.
We use very wet patches that seem not to bother the charge, either. Our entire black powder section loads as we do, including our women and kids. That is why we just cannot understand all this talk of having to wipe, at all.
Daryl,
You made a convert out of me some time ago. A tight patch and ball combo and a wet patch works as well in swampy Florida as it does in British Columbia. Ye speaketh the truth.
Mole Eyes
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A tight patch and ball combo and a wet patch works as well in swampy Florida as it does in British Columbia. Ye speaketh the truth.
Mole Eyes
Do I hear a BIG AMEN Brothers and sisters ???
AMEN !!!
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A tight patch and ball combo and a wet patch works as well in swampy Florida as it does in British Columbia. Ye speaketh the truth.
Mole Eyes
Do I hear a BIG AMEN Brothers and sisters ???
AMEN !!!
Amen
... we all need to swab ...
???
not 'round here bro. ;)
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No swabbing here ! I have a old CVA Hawken that was a one shot wander had to wipe after every shot or no hits after Daryl sent me some hints and after going to his tighter patch and Neets Foot oil lube result are shot groups with all holes over lapping at 50yds and just over 1" groups at 100yds no wiping at all and cleanup is a lot easier too. Thanks Daryl and others too( Bob Roller, Herb , Frontier Muzzle Loding)!
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AZshooter,
I've been a builder and shooter for the last 30 plus years in AZ. I've built and shot at least 50 rifles, 15 pistols, and can shoot all day, any day, without swabbing. Now, if you let a discharged barrel sit and dry out, swabbing will be required.
To add to that, I've NEVER bought a patch lube. All liquid lubes. Shoot and clean with the same product. Call it Moose Milk, or whatever, it works, it's cheap, and I can always make more.
Truthfully, spot works almost as well, but as you know, not much spit when you live in AZ.
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Anyone else have any comments on the "Degummed" vs "Non-Degummed" Castor Oil? I'm headed to the drug store today to buy some along with a stop off at Ace to pick up some Denatured Alcohol. Bought some castor oil awhile back to use in a different "boolit-lube" recipe that worked quite well but don't want to go into detail here since this is a topic on muzzleloaders.
Any help would be appreciated!
Newtire
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Anyone else have any comments on the "Degummed" vs "Non-Degummed" Castor Oil? I'm headed to the drug store today to buy some along with a stop off at Ace to pick up some Denatured Alcohol. Bought some castor oil awhile back to use in a different "boolit-lube" recipe that worked quite well but don't want to go into detail here since this is a topic on muzzleloaders.
Any help would be appreciated!
Newtire
If Mad Monk says you need de-gummed, you need degummed.
I have only used castor oil to make soap, never sullied a bore with it. A quick glance at ebay finds fuel mixing type castor oil to say "de-rubberized" on the label (Novarossi Extra Castor Oil For Fuel Mix). If I wanted some this is where I'd buy it. Good luck.
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When I started looking at castor oil for a patch lube I remembered what it did to engine rings, Gummed them up something terrible. From what I learned the oil was not filtered and cleaned as it is in the usable stuff now. Degummed is the removal of plant fibers and extras from the squeeze process. This gives the clear liquid found on most shelves today that we smear on the patches. I tried the alcohol oil mix, worked well, but rubbing pure oil into the patch with thumb and fore finger to just dampen the patch much like what was done with whale oil. If it was to wet I put a dry patch on either side to pick up the extra oil then wet them and redo the process. The damp patch works best for my 54 loads great and shoots with out wiping but the best accuracy is wiping after the 3d shot.
coupe
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Don't know how many times we have to say this but use pure oil be it mink oil, bear oil or my favorite PURE Neatsfoot oil. Spit works great if you are going to shoot right away but these three have always worked and always will. Maybe its time to stop trying to reinvent the wheel, but each to their own right?
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I don't want to wade into the patch lube morass, but you should ask Taylor for his liquid lube recipe: Very easy to concoct and very effective too: No bore swabbing needed with it at all! And best of all, it uses winter grade windshield washer fluid as the main ingredient so it's very inexpensive to make.
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Anyone else have any comments on the "Degummed" vs "Non-Degummed" Castor Oil? I'm headed to the drug store today to buy some along with a stop off at Ace to pick up some Denatured Alcohol. Bought some castor oil awhile back to use in a different "boolit-lube" recipe that worked quite well but don't want to go into detail here since this is a topic on muzzleloaders.
Any help would be appreciated!
Newtire
Shops that cater to dirt bike riders have the correct stuff. It is castor oil for use in engines.
KLOTZ BENOL RACING CASTOR 2-STROKE OIL
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As the Muskrat said, no reason to reinvent the wheel. I use mink oil and really like it. But if your's works then it must be good.
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i Listen to the Beetles and Zeppelin on a 1971 Micro Seiki, wear jeans with no fancy designs on the back pockets, and use bear grease and spit. The music sounds better, my wife won’t steal my jeans, and my guns load all day without a fight. I’ll leave reinventing the wheel to Elon Musk.
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Bear grease, or venison tallow, have a high tolerance for heat. That was well known to the early pioneers. All this other stuff may or may not tolerate high heat. In my experience bees wax in anything but small amounts creates more problems than it cures. Beef tallow is very solid and is fine for waterproofing leather, but its tolerance for high heat isn’t anywhere in the league with bear grease, venison tallow, or even mutton tallow.
Store bought goop in a jar usually has ingredients not comparable with high heat which brings us right back around to the lubes used by the early riflemen.
Hungry Horse
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(https://i.ibb.co/qyV0MLr/DSC03033-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YRwD74L)
(https://i.ibb.co/gSwVwPS/DSC03040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/48MdMY8)
Mutton tallow works for me (The British army used it as lube for over 200yrs if there was a better lube they would have used it)
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There must be about a hundred different types of lubes and techniques for their use as well as needing swabbing between shots or not..
I have been shooting for a long time, and finally settled on a mix of Murphy's Oil soap and Windex. I carry a small spray bottle with me and a couple of squirts does the job. I shoot in a match once a month, and shoot the whole match without having to swab the barrel and have no problems with my mix doing it's job. I use the same mix to clean my barrels, and it does a good job with that too!
To each his own....but I think I've found mine...
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Just to widen up the subject area. The Wilde method, used in the era of the last of the spherical ball military muzzle loading rifles, loaded the patched ball dry then squirted a measured drop of water into the muzzle. Best with a linen patch which will swell and seal the charge from the water. I used it with cotton and it worked fine once I had worked out the required amount of water but it would sometimes let the water reach the charge. Kept the bore clean and loading easy.