AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Accoutrements => Topic started by: mab7 on February 05, 2015, 02:51:45 AM
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Is Minwax wood stain a good product to use to add color to a horn?
Just because I don't have enough aggravation in my life, I am trying my hand at shaping and scrimshawing a powder horn. I am filing an octagon on the spout end and there is a pretty fair amount of dark color in the horn. I was taking a break and looked across the garage and realized I have several cans of dark wood stain. They are the normal various shades of walnut, but I also have a can of ebony. If it will work, I won't have to chase down RIT dye or some other product...
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Many, many years ago I tried that, wood stain, It wont work. Sorry. You probably wont find anything that will penetrate a horn, even Rit and acids are a topical dye and can be sanded off rather easily. The wood stain has to soak in to work correctly and it wont on a horn. It will dry after a couple days, but remains sticky. you wont like it. This is just MY opinion.
OK, Lets get some good horners in here to straighten me out and help this man.
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I have used shoe/boot edge dressing under tung oil with some success. It takes a few days to get thru the whole process but it does hold pretty well, and the tung oil can be touched up very easy when scratches happen.
CW
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I have used Tandy leather dye. Let it dry and buff off to desired color with 4x steel wool.
Then seal with paste wax and buff good.
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Griz, I don't mean to sound like I know very much but I have used Rit dye on a lot of horns and it seems to work and wear pretty good. I do bring it to a boil, turn off the heat and soak a horn as long as it takes to get the color I want. But you are right about sanding it off, it just takes some work if you let it soak very long.
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Does RIT 'soak up' into the horn?
referring back to my aggravation comment, I am attempting to go from the spout, to a wedding ring, about four inches of octagon (that's a real joy!), another wedding ring, and then the remainder of the body for scrimshaw. I want the spout, small wedding ring and octagon a dark color - very dark brown or black - stopping at the lower edge of the next wedding ring. I was hoping for something more controllable so I can avoid a lot of re-scraping or sanding, possibly making the horn too thin...
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Skillman who posts on here has had pretty good luck with men's mustache dye you might get him to tell you more about it.
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Will aqua fortis work on a horn?
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I believe Mr. Crosby does some of his horns with Aqua Fortis.
Forget MinWax stains. If it cannot soak in, it just sits on top of a material and makes a sticky mess that won't dry. Ask me how I know!
Hope this helps. God Bless, Marc
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Does RIT 'soak up' into the horn?
referring back to my aggravation comment, I am attempting to go from the spout, to a wedding ring, about four inches of octagon (that's a real joy!), another wedding ring, and then the remainder of the body for scrimshaw. I want the spout, small wedding ring and octagon a dark color - very dark brown or black - stopping at the lower edge of the next wedding ring. I was hoping for something more controllable so I can avoid a lot of re-scraping or sanding, possibly making the horn too thin...
You can tape around the area that you don't want to get dye on. this is not foolproof but will keep most if not all of the dye off of the area that you want to leave white. By dipping the end that you want to stain down to the tape you should be able to control most of the overlap.
Ron
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I use hair dye quite a bit. Just for men beard and mustache dye is a paste so it stays put while it works. Leave it on for around 24 hours. Even hair dye isn't permanent ande can be sanded off.
I use aquafortis on my yellow horns and it works quite well.
Steve
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I tried ferric chloride on a white fire tender horn and it seems to be holdin up pretty well,it has a nice yellow color to it and i like it .Curt
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I would stick with what works for others rather than waste time trying unproven methods. Not saying that there ar not other ways but this is what has worked for me for years and believe me I have tried just about every thing.
AF works well but you have to heat the horn almost to the point of not being able to touch it, just before the blisters. Apply the AF and let it sit, it is going to come out lighter than it looks. Let it sit, I usually wait until it cools, then wash it off. Warning; if you have already rounded your horn the heat will/may bring it back to the original shape, so leave the sizer in it. Also make sure there is no oil on the horn, that included from your fingers, I have also found that if you use a scraped finish and All the scraping is not in the same direction you will get two different colors. If it is not what you want after washing repeat the process until you do, If you just don't like it just scrape it off, I wouldn't worry about getting it to thin. I have never used anything, like a Base, on the horn after the AF. Shoe polish or wax works well although will lighten with time. If you get to much dark shoe polish on it use a Netural wax or floor wax to take off the color.
RIT dye works well too, once again as explained above with heat. I also use Oil based leather dye, again with heat.
With whatever you use heat the horn to open its pours, it may not go very deep but it will penetrate a bit.
May be more than was asked for.
Tim C.
PS: I do use other stuff, Tea and Paint being two, but this is the basics. TC
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Thanks everyone!
I have found out that thanks to less than ideal light and eyesight, when combined with the horn color, it would definitely be to my advantage to use some kind of marking / indicating color while I work certain areas. I think this will give me the opportunity to test out various solutions since I can apply them knowing in advance that they will be coming off as I work. Since I already have some, I am starting with leather dye I have.
In case you haven't been able to determine it yet, I am one of those guys that usually has to learn things the hard way! If nothing else, It definitely gives me a better appreciation of what people who normally do, and excel, at these things go through!
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''I am one of those guys that usually has to learn things the hard way!
That is refered to as a TYPE III learner,,learn by doing, ;)of which Iam one.The person jumping up and down,blowing on his fingers by the sign that Reads "HOT !!!!!! DO NOT TOUCH", ::) Always lead with your head,,can't get hurt that way !!!! Is what my dad always told me, and Scares are just like Birthmarks ,,, but with a story to go with them !!!!!!!!!!! ;D
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I generally use rit dye to dye the end of the horn. I don't usually do the bodies but on the one I have dyed, I used rit to dye the body as well. You will have to either try and mask where you don't want the dye to go or sand it off when finshed dyeing. Just be careful and mask the area you don't want to sand the finish off of. also, you will have to do your engraving BEFORE you do the dyeing if you're going to dye the body. This has created difficulties for me in the past but I know others have not had similar issues...
I've used postassium permanganate in the past to dye the throat and spout. You mix it with water, paint it on with a synthetic paint brush (potperm eats hair brushes) and then dry it with a heat gun. keep repeating until you get the color you want. the positives there is it allows you to put color where you want it. The downside is that the color will eventually wear off with handling but it creates highlights which I sort of like the look of.
I've seen aqua fortis used, but never used it myself. As for hair dye, it sounds like a reasonable thing to use given what horn actually is but the idea of having to leave it oon for 24 hours slows down the process too much for me.
Good luck in whatever choice you make. We'll be waiting to see the final result.
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Ive been using leather Dye for years!!! To get the throat dark black, use women's Hair coloring black. Works quickly and lasts. Heating the horn before applying seems to help set the colors better and drying time. Use a hair dryer or heat gun. Coat of varnish at end to seal.
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I have an entire new appreciation for anyone that does horns! I am determined to do this all by hand using files and chisels, etc. with no power tools. The temptation to break out the Dremel or small sanders is pretty strong but so far I have resisted! Getting, and keeping, the octagon nice and sharp is a real joy!
One thing I have been wondering about, is why are horns finished after sanding or scraping to such a fine, sealed surface? On wood, any staining or other color treatments are done with a more open / porous surface, then taken to the final finish. That super smooth, finished surface is what makes applying any finish so difficult. Is this due to the type of material being worked or some other factor my complete lack of experience with them is causing me to not realize?
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I do my final finish by scraping. I use a knife. I wax the entire thing when all work (such as scrim) is done. Some of the true artists try to get a perfect finish on their "canvas" before doing their engraving on the horn. My feeble scratchin ain't worth the effort. Many of the originals I have examined seem to have been far less concerned with a few scratches or overall perfect finish. Hard to tell after 250 years. One thing for sure is the little facets that remain from the scraping. You can get very fine, pronounced corners and edges from scraping. I do a lot on my guns as well. I know many others who do this as well because you don't get a lot of deep scratches or gouges that have to be removed. Probably as many techniques as Horners.
Steve
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I know from doing woodwork that when you scrape, it practically eliminates the 'hairs' or fibers that result from sanding when applying a finish. When sanding, a finish will be dull or appear fuzzy if you don't go back over it with a final finer sanding to remove them. Scraping will reduce the need to do that. I normally use metal and glass scrapers both, but have also used single-edge razor blades, my pocket knife and even hard plastic as a scraper/burnisher...
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My wife works at a farm and home type store in the boot department. Picking her up today, I found myself standing next to a whole shelf of Reising 4 oz bottles of leather dye. I figured what the heck, $3 is a pretty cheap test. I mainly want it now to use as a marking dye while working the horn. It's getting filed, sanded and scraped so what do I have to lose right?
The most controllable applicator I had within reach was a Q-tip. I stained 4" of horn in about two minutes to a beautiful dark brown color with absolutely zero over-run. That stuff worked way better than I ever imagined and now I can actually see what I have done. I wish I could speak as highly of my efforts to file an octagon. Wow do I have some fixing to do!
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Be aware that ultraviolet light (sunlight) will fade leather dye very quickly.
Steve
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Be aware that ultraviolet light (sunlight) will fade leather dye very quickly.
Steve
Yep, what steve said, so will PP and Chromium Tri-oxide, the sun just loves to fade them and fast...
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The final coloring dye will be RIT. Everything I have read and seen are just too compelling not to use it.
The leather dye is just being used as marking dye for while I work it. The white, gray and black in this horn seem to mix perfectly in such a manner that it is really difficult to see the results while filing. The dye makes it bery easy to see the results, both while actually filing and after. Kind of like using blue dye when draw filing metal...
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Fiebrings Leather Dye Black USMC works great on the spout area you are
talking about. Just wax it after it dries. I have also used one of those Jumbo
black permanent markers. Takes a little longer but it works.
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I can honestly say that using the dye as a marking solution worked like a champ. It did exactly as I had hoped. Unfortunately, I can't say as much concerning my ability to file a clean octagon. In that regard, it was a toral and complete disaster. I can tell you with certainty that it is much easier to file an octagon out of a horn than it is to file one into it!
Moving on to Plan B... as soon as I decide what that is!
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try filing a square first and then knock the corners off at a 45.
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I have cut more octagons on wood than I can count using that method but for some reason I got in my head it wouldn't work on a horn. No.... I had to be clever. I marked what I eyeballed to be centerline on the horn, then wrapped the lower and upper ends with blue painter's tape. I measured the circumferance of each and marked them off by halfs... Works great on paper right?! Then I took a fine point Sharpie and played connect the marks for the lines.
Five of the flats actually came out pretty good. Flats six and seven twisted and got wider for some reason. The eight one looked like a tornado got hold of it! It was beyond saving so I have already filed it out. I think I will give it a design that somewhat matches a powder measure, pick and brush set I have so all is not lost. I have two more to work with and will attempt the octagon again on one of the others.
Oh the joys of experimenting!
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Hey, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. They'd call it a hobby and you wouldn't get paid!! Wait----------- :o ???
Steve
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On this one I used Rit dye, Golden Yellow with a touch of brown for the main part of the horn, black for the front where it has the step down carving towards the tip. Boil the water add dye, and keep it in for about 10 minutes. Tape the edge of the engrailment where they start so as not to get the black on the yellow part, sand lightly if it bleeds over and re-dye. You won't see the yellow on the black when you re-dye if it goes over. I use an old, tall aluminum coffee pot to do the deed.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi10.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa133%2FHoleshotHarley%2FHorn1.jpg&hash=9d2c22e85f5a6dc3f77bea47422d9fcb7527e898)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi10.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa133%2FHoleshotHarley%2FHorn3.jpg&hash=8da25a2d37c080d9e59f5a334e240d03b301cdf1)
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I have cut more octagons on wood than I can count using that method but for some reason I got in my head it wouldn't work on a horn. No.... I had to be clever. I marked what I eyeballed to be centerline on the horn, then wrapped the lower and upper ends with blue painter's tape. I measured the circumferance of each and marked them off by halfs... Works great on paper right?! Then I took a fine point Sharpie and played connect the marks for the lines.
Five of the flats actually came out pretty good. Flats six and seven twisted and got wider for some reason. The eight one looked like a tornado got hold of it! It was beyond saving so I have already filed it out. I think I will give it a design that somewhat matches a powder measure, pick and brush set I have so all is not lost. I have two more to work with and will attempt the octagon again on one of the others.
Oh the joys of experimenting!
Just my opinion, and theres guiys on here that are way better versed in horn making than me,
Its because you arent working on a flat object like you would in the wood shop. I used to own a custom cabinet shop also and its a real transition from flat surface of wood to a bent, expanding and twisted surface of a horn. Just my opinion, stop using all the marks, painters tape... just file the square with the contour of the horn, especially the top inside curve (thats where most people make mistakes) and take even amounts off so that it follows the natural lines of the horn, then try to slowly take off the 45's and keep looking at it as you go, not only from the sides but from the tip end to be sure you are holding straight.
oh, one more thing. Try using a rod in your vise and stick the drilled horn tip on the rod so you can spin the horn while you are filing on it. That mau help also. DO NOT file the body of the horn while using the rod, you'll snap the tip in half. I hope this helps and some more experienced horners steps in and helps you also and straightens out my mistakes I just told you:)
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I did a little experimenting yesterday and this morning with coloring. Like many of you I sometimes like the area from the scalloping, ring, or transition point of the horn to the pouring tip to be a black or brown color like many original horns. I have used many things over the years and felt that RIT dye was the best thing going, though it would wear off a bit. So using RIT black dye and only rough finishing the 'body' of the horn I put it in the pot with a strong dye and water solution, put the lid on and put a couple bricks in the lid, making it into a somewhat pressure cooker. I let it boil for About an hour, removed it and lit it cool and set up. The body being unfinished I had to scrape and file it back to white, sanding would have taken hours as the dye had penetrated that deep. I finished the body and reboiled it in tea for a time, to get the parchment like color I wanted, installed the cap and this morning to test how good the dye took, I buffed the black snout fairly aggressively on an electric buffing wheel and brought it to a high polish with no loss of color. I think it will wear well even with regular, hard usage. It adds an extra step into the way I make horns but I think its worth it. I hope this helps someone and hope even more they get the same results as I have. Every horn has its own texture and density but I think the process will work with any horn. I did three different horns with the same results. Good luck!!!
Robby
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I did a little experimenting yesterday and this morning with coloring. Like many of you I sometimes like the area from the scalloping, ring, or transition point of the horn to the pouring tip to be a black or brown color like many original horns. I have used many things over the years and felt that RIT dye was the best thing going, though it would wear off a bit. So using RIT black dye and only rough finishing the 'body' of the horn I put it in the pot with a strong dye and water solution, put the lid on and put a couple bricks in the lid, making it into a somewhat pressure cooker. I let it boil for About an hour, removed it and lit it cool and set up. The body being unfinished I had to scrape and file it back to white, sanding would have taken hours as the dye had penetrated that deep. I finished the body and reboiled it in tea for a time, to get the parchment like color I wanted, installed the cap and this morning to test how good the dye took, I buffed the black snout fairly aggressively on an electric buffing wheel and brought it to a high polish with no loss of color. I think it will wear well even with regular, hard usage. It adds an extra step into the way I make horns but I think its worth it. I hope this helps someone and hope even more they get the same results as I have. Every horn has its own texture and density but I think the process will work with any horn. I did three different horns with the same results. Good luck!!!
Robby
Let's see a Pic or two.
Thanks, Tim C.
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Tim, I'll try to get some pictures up tomorrow.
Robby
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Don't know if its still around or not but i use to purchase a product called ( old Horn ) it was made to dye horn & antler. try some of the Blackpowder shops to see if they still make it.
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Tim, The black snout on the top horn is natural to the horn. The other two, the black snout is applied as I described earlier. Just for the heck of it, before this photo was taken I ran the snouts through the polisher again and can find no areas where the original color is coming through.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi257.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh217%2Frobin101st%2FDSCN0129_zpslfdvbbc4.jpg&hash=0cc8e9436fb21abdcc45d73eed13e777c8cb1652)
Robby
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That does look good. Nice work on the horns, the file work looks great, nice design both in the horns themselves and the engraving. What are you plans for the Butt on the other two?
Well done.
Tim C.
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Thanks Tim. The bee hive horn is to go with a Carolina mountain type rifle that I decided to keep. The caps on the other two will be slightly domed. One is going with a Hudson Valley fowler, it's kind of a redux of one I made years ago, and the Vernum horn is for a Bedford County gun in the planning, with a friend of Hiram in mind.
Robby
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I use a natural dye made from osage orange, walnut hulls and butternut hulls. I use the same old $#@* in the pot until the $#@* in the bottom gets too deep and start over. Always bring to a boil before lifting the lid so the mold growth doesn't make me sick. Sometimes I'll add vinegar to reduce the mold forming a little. After it's boiled, turn down to a simmer and toss in the horn, add more osage or butternut as needed to get the color I like.
I have used silver nitrate on spouts in the past and will use ferric nitrate on a flat horn that can't be immersed in my dye bath since it will try to go back to it's natural form. I quit trying to dye the spout since I've never seen an old horn that was artificially treated to be black, all were natural black tipped horn to begin with. Just another hack opinion, lol.
Mark
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Has anyone tried thin epoxy with aniline dye added? Probably just adhere to the surface but it might be durable for a darkly colored spout area. I am not working on a horn at the moment but might try this on scrap before the next horn I do.
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I recently did a horn that I did some low relief carving at the engrailing edge due to lack of mass at the tip. I couldn't dye the tip in Rit, because if I had to sand off any of the dye to restore the white below it the white horn would have disappeared. Instead I used black men's moustache and beard dye with an accelerator added. After all we're talking about hair here...It worked great! I painted it on where I wanted it, left it on about 3 hours and wiped off the excess. It worked famously. Just be sure you paint it on evenly; oh, and wear gloves...it will stain your fingers like walnut juice and like walnut it will take days to wear off.
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Mark,
What did you use as an accelerator, what does it do and why did you think it necessary?
Thanks, Tim
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I too am curious as to what you refer to as an accelerator. I just use what comes with it.
Steve
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It makes the dye work faster so instead of having to leave it on for 24 hours you can leave it on 4 hours for instance. You just mix it in with the dye. I bought it at beuty supply store. it comes in a little packet and ran about $1.25.
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How about indelible black ink to make a horn solid black an permanent??? Sonny
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Fiebing’s leather dye from Tandy is NOT sunlight resistant. Lincoln leather dye is sunlight resistant. I use Lincoln black for the spout end of the horn, and after it dries paint the rest of the horn with Lincoln’s medium brown dye, and immediately wipe it off with a damp cloth. Depending on how many times you do this you can control the tone and depth of color. If you are going to scrimshaw the lighter end it should be etched, and inked before you stain it. I usually give it a couple of coats of paste wax afterwards to protect it from wear spots.
Hungry Horse
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I've thought about this a few times. I wonder if the originals acquired some of their "patina" from a lifetime of being handled by hands that were greasy with animal fat patch lube with an added dash of BP fouling... Add some sweat and and animal blood to boot.
Mike
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I also use Fiebings. You can always reapply the die on the spout as it lightens with use and exposure. Black seems to take on a blue/black color with wear. I have found a pure white horn will take on some color with use but that takes a few years. For scrimshaw, I prefer a very smooth surface. Even a small ridge can turn your scribe when you are trying to make a tight curl. I use a beeswax based polish to coat the horns. Even with that I have found the surface of the horn will eventually start to check with extended exposure. Good thing there were a lot of cows.