AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: hanshi on March 02, 2015, 10:37:37 PM
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I didn't want to hijack the .32 lube thread with my questions but my interest has been piqued. I find that Mink Oil is one of the most commonly suggested grease type lubes. I'm especially impressed with the claims of long shooting strings without wiping. Hoppes and spit are great for this but both contain water.
I'm interested in hearing more about it from those who've used it. It HAS to be better than Bore Butter.
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I didn't want to hijack the .32 lube thread with my questions but my interest has been piqued. I find that Mink Oil is one of the most commonly suggested grease type lubes. I'm especially impressed with the claims of long shooting strings without wiping. Hoppes and spit are great for this but both contain water.
I'm interested in hearing more about it from those who've used it. It HAS to be better than Bore Butter.
Hanshi,
Goose $#@* has to be better than Bore Butter ;D. As for Mink Oil, I really think it's a matter of personal choice for target shooting when it comes to a liquid lube or Mink Oil. I've tried Mink Oil for both hunting and target shooting and while I like it for hunting I don't like using the "Greasy Kid Stuff" for target shooting. Using it with a tight patch and ball combo (.395 ball and .024 patch) I could shoot without cleaning between shots with accuracy pretty comparable to my usual liquid lube, Mr. Flintlock's Lube. I can't fault it there and use it as my "go to" hunting lube.
Mole Eyes
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I've used it with good results. I found that I had to slightly increase the powder charge comapred to my spit patch load.
J.B.
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i can normally get 5-6 shots before I fear breaking the ramrod. I do use a tight .020" patch though, so thats going to limit me. I normally swab between shots anyway for best accuracy. I love mink oil though. I've left a rifle loaded close to 3 weeks and the recovered patch was stiff nicely saturated and protecting the patch after all that time.
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My issue with mink oil is that the mink industry is exceeding cruel to the animals. I used Bore butter ONCE, and it fouled so badly that I had to get a friend to help pull the ramrod with its wiping patch. Hoppe's #9 worked well. Now I use Mr. Flintlock, and I
really like it.
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i can normally get 5-6 shots before I fear breaking the ramrod. I do use a tight .020" patch though, so thats going to limit me...
? confused. A tighter fitting patch is usually the path to finding a no-wiping combination, NOT the converse. Perhaps you've not heard of these match shooters who load tight and never wipe?
"match" i said, not benchrest. ;)
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i don't shoot their kind of rifles with super deep rifling nor do i slather the patch in lube. I am a hunter and if i can get 5-6 shots, I am safe in the field with my wooden ramrod.
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I agree with Wade P; I use the tightest prb combo (.311" ball + .024" patch) that I can load without breaking the wood rod. And it does keep the fouling down so no wiping is needed for an afternoon shooting string.
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I do believe some folks have to wipe due to fouling buildup in their barrels regardless of how tight the patch is as those barrels have used phony powders in their history at some point or were neglected and thus have a surface that accumulates fouling, regardless.
Both Taylor and I have been testing loads with patches that failed - burnouts, and strips of char like overly fried bacon, yet our barrels did not need wiping - as changing to thicker patches and they loaded and shot just fine. That must say something about bore condition & it's affinity to collecting fouling.
Used mass-production guns are usually the worse for wear (the ones I've seen were horrid) - people shooting them with Pyrodex or some other substance, never cleaning them, then selling them because there was more work to it than they wanted to bear. Most did not know to clean them after shooting or actually how to clean them properly.
Just look at the video about bore seasoning - how many times did that bloke rust his rifle's bore in testing his "seasoning", attempting to find a condition in which he didn't have to clean it? - bloody $#*!! Nope, didn't work - barrel for sale!
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and what i fail to see is that you old timers do not time into account RIFLING DEPTH from one gun to the next.
I'd love for one of you that can shoot all day long without loading getting hard, to put together a video, showing this, along with a 100 yard target, shot off the bench of course.
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I'm not an old timer. I do have several rifles from.45 to 62 cal that have barrels from Gets ,Green Mt, Colrain , Rice. Bob Hoyt.With rifleing of varing depths. Not one of wich requires wiping between shots. Spit patch for target mink oil or neets foot for hunting. Most barrels shoot 5 thou under bore size ball and 20 to 25 thou compressed measure patching.
Listen to the old timers they know stuff!!
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show me
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There are so many folks that have preconceived opinions re loading and fouling, and cleaning. If cleaning is what you like to do, then so be it. Continue on . My .54 target rifle [ under hammer] has a 1 in oct. Green Mountain barrel
I actually shoot a .540 ball [ Green Mountain mould ] and I really can shoot a match without cleaning. The patched ball pushes are the fouling down when loading, and that keeps it from accumulating. The only time I need to clean is if we break for lunch or coffee and then I'll run a wet and dry patch through to keep the fouling from the last shot from hardening up. But, the fouling in the barrel is never more than the last shot.
My .45 has a 42 in swamped barrel and it likes .445 balls and a .022 patch. Same thing. I can shoot a complete trail walk without cleaning between shots. No, it doesn't get more difficult to load as the shots accumulate.
One thing, though…use enough lube. Some guys in our club were convinced that "dry " lubed patches were the way to go. They had to clean between shots.
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show me
show yourself.
There are a hundred and thirty posts at this site alone in regard to this matter. Please search up a few dozen and save us from the complete rehash. I would search terms like "wiping" and "no wiping" and etc.
If we're going to do that, let us start a different thread, because it's not an "oil specific" practice.
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There are so many folks that have preconceived opinions re loading and fouling, and cleaning. If cleaning is what you like to do, then so be it. Continue on . My .54 target rifle [ under hammer] has a 1 in oct. Green Mountain barrel
I actually shoot a .540 ball [ Green Mountain mould ] and I really can shoot a match without cleaning. The patched ball pushes are the fouling down when loading, and that keeps it from accumulating. The only time I need to clean is if we break for lunch or coffee and then I'll run a wet and dry patch through to keep the fouling from the last shot from hardening up. But, the fouling in the barrel is never more than the last shot.
My .45 has a 42 in swamped barrel and it likes .445 balls and a .022 patch. Same thing. I can shoot a complete trail walk without cleaning between shots. No, it doesn't get more difficult to load as the shots accumulate.
One thing, though…use enough lube. Some guys in our club were convinced that "dry " lubed patches were the way to go. They had to clean between shots.
THANK YOU! Finally someone gets it. When I say I get 5-7 shots before its time to clean due to fear of breaking the ramrod, thats just it, I do NOT slather my patches in lube because in my case, it kills my accuracy. I run a forum as well and a fellow did that with his hawken, slathered the patches so he could get by without cleaning, and his accuracy started to suffer greatly.
Before ones says he can shoot all day without cleaning, you have to get the facts of what lube and how its being applied.
Mine are not dry, but then again, they dont ooze out lube as they go into the bore.
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But….My accuracy doesn't suffer from too much lube ;D Why ? Probably because I have a nice ball /patch combination. Carry on .
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My patches are not dripping with lube. the patch is saturated but not to the point of being squeezed out when started.
If swabing between shots proved more accurate. I would. It dos'nt.
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Just look at the video about bore seasoning - how many times did that bloke rust his rifle's bore in testing his "seasoning", attempting to find a condition in which he didn't have to clean it? - bloody $#*!! Nope, didn't work - barrel for sale!
The thing about "seasoning a bore" goes back to the 1980s. Comments that one had to "season" the bore the same as one does a cast iron frying pan to keep it from rusting and you should never use a soap or detergent that would remove that seasoning. Ox-Yoke tried turning some profit by having shooters send their barrels to them and they would "season" the bore for a price. The barrel would simple be kept in a tank with melted bore butter. The idea being that the melted lube would then work its way into the pores in the metal.
Mad Monk
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and what i fail to see is that you old timers do not time into account RIFLING DEPTH from one gun to the next.
I'd love for one of you that can shoot all day long without loading getting hard, to put together a video, showing this, along with a 100 yard target, shot off the bench of course.
LOl- that would be a long video.
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and what i fail to see is that you old timers do not time into account RIFLING DEPTH from one gun to the next.
I'd love for one of you that can shoot all day long without loading getting hard, to put together a video, showing this, along with a 100 yard target, shot off the bench of course.
I'm not sure what you mean by" shooting all day" but I can and do shoot 20 to 25 shots without wiping and the last shot is as easy to load as the first! Using only Mr. Flintlock as the Lube.
My accuracy is not affected.
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Most roundball barrels have a personality all their own. Never say never and never say always. ;)
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We need a smiley for kicking a dead horse.
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and what i fail to see is that you old timers do not time into account RIFLING DEPTH from one gun to the next.
I'd love for one of you that can shoot all day long without loading getting hard, to put together a video, showing this, along with a 100 yard target, shot off the bench of course.
First of all, I apologize for -re-posting this video to those who are tired of seeing it.
50- maybe 60 shots that day by me on the trail, and Hatchet Jack - probably 80 or more. He starts at sun-up - we start at 10AM. No wiping at any time - either of us.
I'm shooting a .445" ball and 10 ounce denim patch- about .0225" compressed in the calipers as hard as I can squeeze between forefinger and thumb on the jaws.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4&hash=a90b5ece3eb7a877c815f16f74ded5a2cb7f1e56) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4)
This is Taylor shooting his Virginia rifle, .50 Rice barrel with a .495" ball and .020" patch. If mine, I'd be using a thicker patch as they will hold slightly if the powder charge is increased much over 85gr. 2F. For me, it's too thin- but it bloody well works well for him- no wiping for an entire day's shooting.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_DSCN1983.mp4&hash=2254a0387fda59a3990b4190798d47bfeb333d95) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/DSCN1983.mp4)
Here's a shallow grooved SXS rifle in .58- a Kodiak. I am using a .562" ball and .0215" ticking patch. The rifling is shallow- but is a cut rifled barrel- .008" on the rifling, so with the patch and ball, there is .0045" compression in the bottom of both grooves. I've shot 30 or 40 shots in testing for regulation that day when I decided to make the video. I am using the rifle's 3/8" Hickory rod- a replacement as the rod I got with the rifle was maple- garbage as a rod.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_P1122037.mp4&hash=c6023c4dd23175e0b41a7941f94fc5570d1e8378) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/P1122037.mp4)
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Well, I AM an old timer; been doing this for about 50 years. Generally I use a ball .010" under bore diameter and a .024" patch. But as an example I can also use this same combo in my .45 but with a .445" ball (.005" under bore diameter) rather than a .440" ball and they load the same and shoot the same. I use Hoppes lube at the range or on trail walks and can shoot my usual 3 to 4 dozen shots and never wipe. Accuracy is not affected in the least. On rare occasions I may feel a crud ring forming at the breech. If I do, then I may wipe the bore (or brush it) and continue shooting. Guns are always wiped prior to packing up and leaving for home. Bore Butters are terrible patch lubes and worse for rust prevention.
Barrels are individuals and my pet .45 has a spot in the bore that tends to catch fouling, etc. I'm more likely to end up wiping this rifle's bore in the middle of my afternoon shoot although I seldom have to. Daryl's observation concerning used factory gun bores is right on. Some of these, even though they may end up being very accurate, can have an aggravating tendency toward heavy fouling. There may be no expeditious way to solve the problem.
Yep, I'm an old timer along with many of the members here. Take time to read my signature.
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We need a smiley for kicking a dead horse.
When ignorance of the theory and practice arises, some of us feel a duty to try to help those who may not have experienced the joys of accurate wipelessness.
-as to the Original Q, I've not tried extended shooting with anything but spit. Only took 4 loadings to get me through venison season. NFO was planned but tallow was used in field. I haven't disproved NFO for my purposes yet.
Hanshi knows, he's an old guy. Others could learn from him. He knows stuff. ;D
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The horse is still dead.
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Wade,
I'm going to get a lot of mileage from your term "accurate wipelessness". That's a good one, well done.
Mole Eyes
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First we have to ask what is in Mink oil. I bet its got other stuff in it. The MSDS I find on the WWW are not all mink oil.
I would use beef tallow, get some kidney fat from a meat cutter and make a year's supply with a little time.
For really cold weather use PURE neatsfoot oil.
Dan
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We need a smiley for kicking a dead horse.
When ignorance of the theory and practice arises, some of us feel a duty to try to help those who may not have experienced the joys of accurate wipelessness.
-as to the Original Q, I've not tried extended shooting with anything but spit. Only took 4 loadings to get me through venison season. NFO was planned but tallow was used in field. I haven't disproved NFO for my purposes yet.
Hanshi knows, he's an old guy. Others could learn from him. He knows stuff. ;D
Define accuracy. 10 ring at 50 yards? Not good enough for a traditional rifle match.
13 shots from the bench at 60 yards make a hole just large enough to pass the shooters thumb? I have seen this done.
There is a reason that people wipe between shots and its not because they like the extra work. With a wet lube its very difficult to maintain an uniform bore condition. Offhand shooters will likely never see it. But people that REALLY work at accuracy will. Its not needed for trail walks or even hunting. It might not even cause a loosing score in a scoring ring target. But in string measure matches it will. Being "out" and extra 1/2" for each of ten shots adds 5 inches to the string.
Take a 5" string at 60 yards. Divide the 5 by 10 and this is the standard distance from center. .5" Even a 12" string is only 1.2" average.
I once ringed a bore with spit patches so I quit them about 35-40 years ago.
Dan
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Dan - I see and understand what you are talking about, and in a Chunk or Plank shoot as you guys shoot in, I'd probably wipe as well.
You guys fire one shot, rack your rifles and wait for the entire line to shoot that one shot - then walk down to change targets.
There is a LOT of time between shots - while the fouling from that last shot, dries out - wiping is pretty much needed for guilt-edge accuracy under those situations.
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First I think it should be understood that those of us who speak of shooting long strings and no wiping are not lying. This is what we do and experience with our rifles. There's no need to ask for "proof"; we say it and are honest about it.
A legitimate question might be, "define accuracy" and define a "long string of shooting". Unable to speak for others I can only speak for myself and what I know. "Ease of loading" means (my definition) that the seating pressure for the final prb must not noticeably differ from the first or second loading. A string can be 20 shots or 50 shots.
Accuracy. I don't own any target rifles nor shoot formal matches. I don't obsess about accuracy nor try for the ultimate precision in grouping. I'm a hunter and recreational shooter and only try for as good grouping as I need for those purposes. Perhaps the following will be telling. I own a .36 flint LR and consider it to be very accurate. I've taken it shooting and after a few dozen shots down range, it still gave me a 5 shot 3/4" group at 45 yards. This is more than adequate for my purposes. With small bores I seldom shoot past 30 or so yards, anyway. A squirrel head is tiny at that distance. On one casual outing with a friend we lined up plastic Coke and water bottles at a (paced) 88 yards. It wasn't that difficult (standing and seated but no bench) to consistently hit the bottles even with the few inches of drop. I'm not a very good shot although I do seem to generally be quite above average. In a formal match I'd likely be wasting my time.
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Well stated, hanshi, but then, I'm not sure about your last sentence. What's defines a "formal" match?
When we shoot the trail walks at Hefley rendezvous, are they not formal matches? Is the plank shoot the "Fort George Free Trappers" are now putting on at the same rendezvous, a formal match? I am quite sure you would do very well indeed at all of these 'matches' whether called formal or casual - we're mostly casual about all of them.
Keep all 10 (5 per target) in the turkey's head and string measure defines winners and also-rans. Quite simple and easy scoring - most of us are also-rans - then if it's after the afternoon shoot, it's "Miller time" before supper.
Oft times if really hot, it's nice to sit in camp all afternoon, palavering about whatever and having a 'cold one or three'- such is rendezvous.
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There is an article in this months Muzzle Blasts (March 2015) titled "Barking off a Squirrel and other Squirrel Hunting Tales" by Steve White.
In the article he refers to a story of a squirrel hunting trip that Daniel Boone and John J. Audubon went on. He quotes Audubon " Boone kept up his firing, and before many hours had elapsed, we had procured as many squirrels as we wished: for you must know, that to load a rifle requires only a moment, and that if it is wiped once after each shot will do duty for hours." Later in the article he refers to a story from the Dr. Daniel Drake family papers (circa 1788) where he refers to hunters wiping their rifles before loading. There is no mention of lube.
I watched Taylor's short video of him loading his rifle. He is using a steel ramrod. You can overcome a lot of fouling with a steel or plastic rod.
If I am shooting in a line shoot most times I will wipe after every shot. In the woods, not so much, hunting, never. I have owned rifles and still do, that are difficult to load if you don't wipe often, and all I've ever used is Goex.
It is a personal preference thing.
Centershot
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Well stated, hanshi, but then, I'm not sure about your last sentence. What's defines a "formal" match?
I see your point, Daryl. I've done a couple of woods walks and was well up in the pack. I guess I'd have to say that it doesn't take a rifle capable of a 2" 5 shot group at 100 yards to win any of the woods walks I've been to. The smallest 100 yard groups I've ever fired were in the order of 3.5" to 4".
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I'm about ready to give up. ;)
Taylor is not using a steel rod - that rod, while skookum, is hickory, not steel. When on the trail - no matter how many shots he has fired, he uses the rifle's hickory rod. When testing loads he uses the cleaning rod as he had been doing, prior to making the video.
The rod under the barrel in my .45 flinter which had been fired perhaps 40 to 55 times that day with NO wiping, is 3/8" hickory. That video has been posted too many times. It is not BS - it is the truth. HICKORY rod- .445" ball, 10 ounce DENIM patch - .0225" in my calipers squeezed as tightly as possible between fore=finger and thumb.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4&hash=a90b5ece3eb7a877c815f16f74ded5a2cb7f1e56) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4)
Ross had fired many more than the rest of us had that day, as he starts as soon as the range is open - 8AM- we started at 10:AM. He also does not have to wipe and he uses a thinner patch than we do. I just do not "get" how anyone can be STILL having trouble loading after firing 1- 20 or 60 shots.
The barrels of my .58 Kodiak had been fired perhaps 30 or 40 times before I decided to take the video. This video also has been posted too many times. No wiping at any time.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_P1122037.mp4&hash=c6023c4dd23175e0b41a7941f94fc5570d1e8378) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/P1122037.mp4)
We do NOT understand how anyone who seems to have a LOT of experience, could be having trouble or even saying the fouling builds up. The way we load and shoot, it does no such thing.
I've never owned a rifle that was difficult to load AFTER I found out how to load them (about 1973) so I didn't need to wipe during a day's shooting. When I first got the TC rifle in 1972, I had fouling problems, broke the factory rod, etc, etc and had to wipe it - often.
Then I read Ned Robert's book and tried out what I had just learned - Not sure exactly when I started with the smooly chamfered muzzle crown- about the same time, I'd guess- 1973. I was not stubborn to attempt 'new' methods - Eureka!- No More Fouling Buildup. It works. Shoot all day with never having to wipe the bore. Then I bought Lyman's BP Handbook and by jingles, their ball engraved by the patch ALL the way around picture, grooves and lands engraving, was what mine looked like if punched into the muzzle then pulled out with the strip of patch material.
Saying that ML bores have to be wiped, is simply repeating new shooter's problems - for the rest of your lives. You can lead a horse to water - but -
If you have a bore that is or was neglected and it is pitted one end to the other, or pitted badly somewhere, it will pick up fouling and retain fouling. If you are the only owner of that barrel - it is YOUR FAULT - you ruined your barrel.
Our late friend, Peter had a rifle with a Getz bl. that was cleaned with boiling hot water immediately after the day's shooting was over - every time. Peter would not even have a beer on a hot day before cleaning his rifle. That bore was pitted one end to the other, a buildup of flash rusting over the years - yet- we were able to shoot it without wiping - it was grabby, though - no fun to load.
After 2 separate lead lapping jobs we were then able to load and shoot it without wiping and loading is very much easier than when it was pitted badly. It still feels like it's picking up a bit of fouling, but the tapered 3/8" to 5/16"" rod is all that is needed & the loading remains the same, not getting more difficult - it does not need wiping.
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Goose $#@* has to be better than Bore Butter ;D.
Mole Eyes
Agreed, but I have a little 36 that will not shoot well with anything else I have ever fed it.
Perhaps I should follow a goose around for a while; how fresh does it need to be?
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Believe bore butter is simply chap-stick compound some wintergreen scent added.