AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: bones92 on April 01, 2015, 08:24:49 PM
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I thought I'd share this here... I acquired this fairly recently. I measured the lands at around .390" and the grooves at around .410".
Would a .390 ball be a suitable choice with a lubricated patch?
I would appreciate any insight or comments on the quality of these early Turner Kirkland rifles (contracted in Belgium). Some others who have owned one indicate they are quite accurate rifles.
I'm on the fence about what to do with the odd plate mounted to the left side. It was clearly a bracket for mounting some kind of adjustable aperture sight. I'm leaning towards filling the holes with wood dowels. I'll need a replacement rear sight, too.
http://s1167.photobucket.com/user/ehamilton92/library/?view=recent
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http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=35200.0
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Thanks, Nate. Should be interesting.
I hope Bill Ladd finds out the thread size for the nipple (and posts it). It's always good to have another nipple ready. Speaking of which, the nipple on mine seems to be brass.
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Awesome. Looks to have had some interesting add-ons over the years!
Hopefully I'll have an answer about the nipple threads by Friday.
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Bill, keep me posted. I would like to have a spare on hand.
Is your current nipple brass? I think the one on mine is. It was a bit clogged with dust, but it easily cleaned out. I can't wait for a chance to try it out.
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That "brass" nipple might be Ampco which kinda looks like brass but better.
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Bill, keep me posted. I would like to have a spare on hand.
Is your current nipple brass? I think the one on mine is. It was a bit clogged with dust, but it easily cleaned out. I can't wait for a chance to try it out.
No. Very hard steel.
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I posted this on my thread about the Turner Kirkland, but here it is:
Best I can tell the nipple started out life as 14-28.
It's so galled up it was throwing me off on trying to get an accurate read.
My machinist put it up against his thread gauges and told me it looked like 14-28 to him, but since the threads are so bad, try running a bolt into the nipple hole (I hadn't tried that.)
14-28 does in fact thread in. It's rather loose on my gun, but that may be from the galled up nipple being run in and out.
I wrote Dixie and asked. Hopefully someone will know for sure and respond.
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Thanks. Hopefully someone at DGW has been around long enough to remember.
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If thats italian or even a made in belgium barrel, it could be the metric size of 6-.75 which is very close to the 1/4x28 thread. I know GM had a recall for that screw up a handful of years ago. Its close but do you want to chance it?
I think its just safer to drill it out and go the next size larger and keep your shooting eye.
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Well, it ain't 1/4-28 and it certainly ain't M6 - which is a good bit smaller than 1/4-28. I was excited to find a 1/4-28 nipple at my local armorer. So loose that there was no way I was going to shoot it.
When I was at my machinists, I very precisely measured 6.5x.9. He said I was nuts - that size doesn't exist. I showed him the thread pitch gauge and the mic. He just grunted and said "It's gotta be 14-28."
Well, it ain't.
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bones92 - not sure if this'll help you, but gunmaker pointed out to me in the other thread that Track has oversize nipples. Their online catalog lists a number of 1/4-28 oversize nipples in a variety of profiles. I haven't pulled mine back out and put the micrometer to it, but I'm sure I'll be able to find what I need - the data Track lists appears complete enough to take the guesswork out of it.
I can't imagine my gun was set up originally with an oversize nipple, so I have to surmise it was a repair at some point.
Sorry I can't be of more help, although once I find the specific replacement I will post it here.
For example, this nipple looks very close to what I have. As you can see, there are four critical dimensions listed that will allow me to determine if it's the one I need - http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/159/1/ROS-10-I (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/159/1/ROS-10-I)
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Well, it ain't 1/4-28 and it certainly ain't M6 - which is a good bit smaller than 1/4-28. I was excited to find a 1/4-28 nipple at my local armorer. So loose that there was no way I was going to shoot it.
When I was at my machinists, I very precisely measured 6.5x.9. He said I was nuts - that size doesn't exist. I showed him the thread pitch gauge and the mic. He just grunted and said "It's gotta be 14-28."
Well, it ain't.
I have a couple of 14x28 taps and they are .244 which is .006 under a full 1/4 inch.
Bob Roller
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Well, it ain't 1/4-28 and it certainly ain't M6 - which is a good bit smaller than 1/4-28. I was excited to find a 1/4-28 nipple at my local armorer. So loose that there was no way I was going to shoot it.
When I was at my machinists, I very precisely measured 6.5x.9. He said I was nuts - that size doesn't exist. I showed him the thread pitch gauge and the mic. He just grunted and said "It's gotta be 14-28."
Well, it ain't.
I have a couple of 14x28 taps and they are .244 which is .006 under a full 1/4 inch.
Bob Roller
Ahh. Bob, if I hold the Kirkland nipple against the new 14x28 nipple I got, it's obviously a larger diameter. Same pitch though.
Do you think it was just oversized tooling in Belgium when the gun was built or do I have a repair nipple in there?
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Well, it ain't 1/4-28 and it certainly ain't M6 - which is a good bit smaller than 1/4-28. I was excited to find a 1/4-28 nipple at my local armorer. So loose that there was no way I was going to shoot it.
When I was at my machinists, I very precisely measured 6.5x.9. He said I was nuts - that size doesn't exist. I showed him the thread pitch gauge and the mic. He just grunted and said "It's gotta be 14-28."
Well, it ain't.
I have a couple of 14x28 taps and they are .244 which is .006 under a full 1/4 inch.
Bob Roller
Ahh. Bob, if I hold the Kirkland nipple against the new 14x28 nipple I got, it's obviously a larger diameter. Same pitch though.
Do you think it was just oversized tooling in Belgium when the gun was built or do I have a repair nipple in there?
I remember the Dixie guns from Belgium but never worked on them. My thread chart is in my shop but isn't 6.5mm about .265? If so,TOW probably has a tap and nipples of that size.
Bob Roller
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Well, it ain't 1/4-28 and it certainly ain't M6 - which is a good bit smaller than 1/4-28. I was excited to find a 1/4-28 nipple at my local armorer. So loose that there was no way I was going to shoot it.
When I was at my machinists, I very precisely measured 6.5x.9. He said I was nuts - that size doesn't exist. I showed him the thread pitch gauge and the mic. He just grunted and said "It's gotta be 14-28."
Well, it ain't.
I have a couple of 14x28 taps and they are .244 which is .006 under a full 1/4 inch.
Bob Roller
Ahh. Bob, if I hold the Kirkland nipple against the new 14x28 nipple I got, it's obviously a larger diameter. Same pitch though.
Do you think it was just oversized tooling in Belgium when the gun was built or do I have a repair nipple in there?
I remember the Dixie guns from Belgium but never worked on them. My thread chart is in my shop but isn't 6.5mm about .265? If so,TOW probably has a tap and nipples of that size.
Bob Roller
Oh right, I can figure this out. 6.5/25.4=.256 Awesome, thanks. I've still gotta take measurements off the nipple. It has a wide flange at the base and is quite a bit taller than the other nipples I have.
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So, based on the Turner's current nipple dimensions of .500 cone length, .195 thread journal length, .665 overall length (OAL) and a .325 base diameter, this is the only nipple I can find that Track has that might work - http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/159/1/MRS-S (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/159/1/MRS-S)
All the others listed are either too short in cone and OAL dimension or are of musket cap variety.
As you can see, I'll need to drill, tap and turn off a bit of thread journal, plus I will need to add a (very) well-fitted washer to increase cone length. The increased thread journal length will allow that.
What say you experts?
Bones, I hope you find a standard nipple arrangement on your gun!
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I have a micrometer, and just happened to order a thread gauge a couple months ago.
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Is there enough metal around the nipple to go to a 5/15" size nipple ? Tom
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Is there enough metal around the nipple to go to a 5/15" size nipple ? Tom
You're on the money Tom. I had the gun on the bench last night and was looking at that very thing. After grabbing the proper drill size and holding it against the nipple hole it sure didn't seem like there would be much meat left.
Guess I have to fabricate my own. I really just wanted to buy a modern one and be done with it. I have a benchtop lathe, so I can cut whatever threads I need. Small enough little thing that hardening shouldn't be too tough.
(Mods - If you feel you should cut out my nipple quest portions and merge it to my thread up in gun building, please do so. Sorry to clutter up Contemporary Collecting.)
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Bill, I took some measurements of the nipple.
OAL: ~ .67" (thread length (journal?): .21", base and cone length (or perhaps, height": .46")
Thread diameter: .245" (however, one can tell the threads have been rounded a bit, so I expect they measured .250" when manufactured... I wonder if the tap they used to thread the breech for the nipple was a bit worn?)
Also, I am fairly sure threading is 28 tpi. My gauge seems to indicate so. I have a photo of it, if I can get it to upload to photobucket.
Interestingly, the vent hole in the bottom of the nipple is somewhat erratic. Not entirely round nor centered.
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bones92 - I acquired (from a gracious member here) a handful of oversize 14-28 nipples. I found that a .260 fit well, but all I received were shorter in cone height than the original. All the ones I looked at in the Track's catalog had the same issue - lots of 14-28 oversize available but all too short in the cone.
I fitted a machined washer to increase the cone height, while making sure I still had good thread insertion.
The .260 I used now consistently fires the caps and the caps fit snugly. But I also now have a quite consistent lag between cap firing and main charge firing!
If I go to the shorter cone height, the hammer has reached the end of it's effective travel and misfires become more prominent.
I ordered a longer nipple in a larger thread size from Track. I will anneal it, cut the threads down to .265-28 and re-harden. Will report my results.
Back to the Turner Kirkland rifles in general - I dug up an old Dixie catalog from 1975 (the last one I remember ordering from them) and there's a nice write up about the guns. Turner wrote he started importing those things in 1955! Was still selling them in '75.
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Bill,
Can you conceivably increase the reach or travel of the hammer? Wouldn't take but just a bit.
If you have a photo of the article, I would be interested in getting a copy.
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...If you have a photo of the article, I would be interested in getting a copy.
I don't but I may be able to scan. Will report back.
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If the hammer covers but does not touch you may be able to shorten the depth of the hole in the hammer 1/4 depth to 1/8th etc. just a thought! Chubby
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If the hammer covers but does not touch you may be able to shorten the depth of the hole in the hammer 1/4 depth to 1/8th etc. just a thought! Chubby
Oh cool. Thanks. It's pretty deep up in there so I could definitely fill it some.
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Bill, or can you adjust the hammer to allow a bit more travel?
Another idea... a spacer that threads into the original threads, and with a female set of threads for another nipple (maybe something more standardized) to screw into, thus extending the cone height.
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I happened to pick up a book on muzzleloaders, and one of the insets included a brief history on the advent of reproduction muzzleloaders.
It would seem that these .40 caliber rifles were the very first reproduction muzzleloaders (to be produced in quantity, at least). These pre-date the creation of the Dixie Gun Works brand.
I thought you all might find this interesting, as well.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKwb4I9n.jpg&hash=8a9ab93ae31fe652fb61f03cb24d1af4b976fa1e)
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Incidentally, I dug out a spare nipple that measures 1/4 x 28, and it fit this Turner Kirkland rifle very well.
Just in case someone comes across this thread looking for information...
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bones92 .... for info only. My mid-60's Dixie catalog indicates that a .255 x 28 nipple fits MOST Dixie guns, but a .260 fits SOME Dixie guns. For my personal collection of old percussion guns, I keep a few of almost every size on hand. It is easier for me to gently try the different diameter nipples rather than attempting to get an accurate measurement on an old, worn one.
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Bones:
I have one in flintlock, you want .375 balls. My lock was junk( as most Belgian locks were), found a custom lock for it, much better.The plate on the left side was for a peep sight, the barrels are good and quite accurate. I have one like yours in .45 and shot my best 100 yd offhand target with it.
Nit Wit
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Mine is most assuredly a .40 caliber. I plan to use .390 or .395 PRB. I was tempted to try to figure out what aperture site was on it, but I think I'll just replace the rear sight... if I end up keeping it. I don't think many venues would allow for an aperture sight, even if I found the one that would fit the plate.
I was debating trimming the plate down to remove any excess that doesn't contact the wood. Or I could just remove it altogether and fill the holes.
OLUT, I think you're right... measuring is one thing, but proper fitting is where it counts.