AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: haddockkl on May 02, 2015, 01:38:27 AM
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As the title states, I am seeking info and more extensive photos if any exist for the rifle shown below, I found them online but can't remember where and have been unable to relocate the source. It is marked J. S. Hawken on the barrel but has many atributes not typically associated with their rifles based on my admittedly limited observations. This however appears to have a short trigger bar, an english scroll guard thst mounted with screws rather than the expected threaded lug, it also appears to have a rather short tang given the location of the eliptical inlay in the wrist. If anyone can help shed more light on this rifle it would be greatly appreciated.
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(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSHawken_zpseeiyu71q.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSHawken_zpseeiyu71q.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSToe_zpsul7sti4u.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSToe_zpsul7sti4u.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSLock_zpssnrqzasn.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSLock_zpssnrqzasn.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSCheek_zpsmdthpdez.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSCheek_zpsmdthpdez.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSFront_zps1b984672-1_zpsvdg452jg.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSFront_zps1b984672-1_zpsvdg452jg.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSForend_zps0dfzkuo6.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSForend_zps0dfzkuo6.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSPanel_zpsbwsmlghg.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSPanel_zpsbwsmlghg.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSButt_zpsjglgdcsx.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSButt_zpsjglgdcsx.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSMuzzle_zps3ed431f5-1_zps3azb2k8g.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSMuzzle_zps3ed431f5-1_zps3azb2k8g.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi235%2Fthatoneguy82%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FMHSRearSight_zpslwbtyipe.jpg&hash=9010c35d8c648fc832a8694cf9acfc92c586af62) (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSRearSight_zpslwbtyipe.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi235%2Fthatoneguy82%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FMHSStamp_zpszrnrtqv3.jpg&hash=c49061aa34f1ac14d64d45c7987c1be78793735a) (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/MHSStamp_zpszrnrtqv3.jpg.html)
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This looks like one of the Hawken brothers smaller caliber rifles. I'm guessing the caliber to be around .45, if the ramrod is a 3/8" rod. It is the first Hawken rifle I've seen with a try on lock on it.
Hungry Horse
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As the title states, I am seeking info and more extensive photos if any exist for the rifle shown below, I found them online but can't remember where and have been unable to relocate the source. It is marked J. S. Hawken on the barrel but has many atributes not typically associated with their rifles based on my admittedly limited observations. This however appears to have a short trigger bar, an english scroll guard thst mounted with screws rather than the expected threaded lug, it also appears to have a rather short tang given the location of the eliptical inlay in the wrist. If anyone can help shed more light on this rifle it would be greatly appreciated.
Those are pictures that Herb Troester took and posted of a J&S Hawken rifle in the Montana Historical Society collection.
It is the same rifle that John Baird wrote about in The Bucksin Report concerning efforts to get Uberti and Western Arms to mass produced a copy.
(https://image.ibb.co/bWb9Ka/80_02_BR_Baird_Webber_J_S_2.jpg)
Ed Webber built a duplicate of the original for Leonard Allen of Western Arms to use as a proto-type.
(https://image.ibb.co/e9hGza/78_09_BR_Baird_Webber_J_S_1.jpg)
According to Baird, the original rifle is .50 caliber and the stock is walnut. The barrel is around 38 to 39 inches long.
Herb may want to join in and provide more details on the rifle.
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Between LaBonte on the other web site you posted on, and from which you copied my photos and have my first hand info based on handling that rifle, and information from Mtn Meek here, we have told you all there is to know about this rifle. And it was considerable.
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It certainly is, thank you for your help, and when I find the time to attempt recreating this piece I'll make sure to share my progress. Looking forward to learning how to forge weld the bolster.
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Forge weld the bolster? I don't understand.
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The bolster on the breech of this rifle is forge welded to the barrel, then the plug must have the hook like a flintlock english fowler that hooks into the tang. As much specialization in parts as there now is, nobody makes a barrel with a bolster welded to it.
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I'm probably all wet here...I think I see a breech plug screwed into the end of that barrel, rather than a snail welded to the barrel. It's a worthy rifle for certain.
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Taylor if you look at this image brightened up you can see that there is no breechplug, just the hook tang.
(https://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-js-mt-historical-society.jpg)
While the lug MAY have been forge welded the most common method for adding such a lug (used on several of the Hawken Mtn Rifles still in existence) was to braze it on - never heard of seen any with a forge welded lug which would be much harder to do than braze the lug on.
This looks like one of the Hawken brothers smaller caliber rifles. I'm guessing the caliber to be around .45, if the ramrod is a 3/8" rod. It is the first Hawken rifle I've seen with a try on lock on it. Hungry Horse
Earlier J & S Hawken mtn rifles tend to be slimmer and generally lighter - this rifle weighs about 9 lbs, about 1.5 pounds lighter than the later rifles made after Sam took over in 1849.
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I heard back from the gentleman who currates the firearms for the Montana Museum of History. Here are some pictures he was gracious enough to send, along with what he knew of the rifles history.
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/001_zps4auhw4nz.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/001_zps4auhw4nz.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/005_zps6lz5fmws.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/005_zps6lz5fmws.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/004_zpsn97phkjn.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/004_zpsn97phkjn.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/003_zpsazjkwbnt.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/003_zpsazjkwbnt.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/006-1_zpsmwngn1cc.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/006-1_zpsmwngn1cc.jpg.html)
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/thatoneguy82/Mobile%20Uploads/001-1_zpsuv7k39i8.jpg) (https://s73.photobucket.com/user/thatoneguy82/media/Mobile%20Uploads/001-1_zpsuv7k39i8.jpg.html)
"Here is a photo of the tang and breech from above. The breech in front of the snail is about 1” flat-to-flat; the muzzle is .875” (7/8) flat-to flat.
I hope this is enough to get you going. Please let me know from time to time how you are progressing. If you get stuck, don’t hesitate to contact me.
This really is an unusual firearm. It was purchased by a Kalispell, Montana collector sometime in the first third of the 20th century at Webster Grove, Missouri. Webster Grove is a suburb of St. Louis and coincidentally was the home of Jacob Hawken’s son, Christopher Hawken. His house still stands, although it has been moved from its original location.
I wish I knew more about this rifle."
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Thanks for that observation Chuck. I for one would love to see an ex ray or at least an artists conception of what this breech looks like. The snail is simply but effectively filed.
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Phil Meek, could you load the second page of that 1980 report?
Thanks,
Peter.
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Phil Meek, could you load the second page of that 1980 report?
Thanks,
Peter.
The page I posted above is page 2 of a four page article.
Page 1
(https://image.ibb.co/ewMWXv/80_02_BR_Baird_Webber_J_S_1.jpg)
Page 3
(https://image.ibb.co/mJodCv/80_02_BR_Baird_Webber_J_S_3.jpg)
Page 4
(https://image.ibb.co/dyodCv/80_02_BR_Baird_Webber_J_S_4.jpg)
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Would love to see the inside of the cap box. Need to see the mechanism that releases the lid. I notice a push button through the toe plate.
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Would love to see the inside of the cap box. Need to see the mechanism that releases the lid. I notice a push button through the toe plate.
These pictures are of the patch box on the Sublette-Beale J&S Hawken, but it looks to be the same box as on the MHS rifle.
(https://image.ibb.co/fkHiea/Sublette_Beale_Hawken_patch_box.jpg)
Yes, the patch box release button is in the toe plate.
(https://image.ibb.co/jcXukF/Sublette_Beale_Hawken_toe_plate.jpg)
Here is a three-quarter view of the Sublette-Beale Hawken.
(https://image.ibb.co/eQD0QF/Sublette_Beale_J_S_Hawken2.jpg)
There is a third J&S Hawken out there with the same patch box. By the way, it appears that this third rifle may have the same type of brazed on breech bolster as the MHS rifle. Unfortunately, this is the only picture I've seen published of this particular rifle.
(https://image.ibb.co/fjM9Ka/Frank_Seller_J_S_Hawken_1.jpg)