AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: hanzosbm on July 05, 2015, 11:32:46 PM
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Hello all,
This is my first post and I am writing here in hopes of gaining some insight from the collective knowledge on this board.
My grandfather passed away 8 years and I inherited a number of his firearms. One of them was a muzzleloading, percussion cap rifle that has been in our family forever. I had heard stories that it was built by a family member who was a gunsmith, but the family member in question was born in 1872, which seems too late for him to have built this. I also heard that he had embellished it, but all of these stories come after several generations in between, so I'm not sure what, if anything, to trust.
My family's name is McAfoose and our family has been in Armstrong County Pennsylvania since the mid to late 1700s and has lived in the Kittanning area ever since. My great great great great grandfather was Jacob McAfoose born in 1784 and was married to Eve Elizabeth Schrecengost, a name I have seen on these forums.
I have a number of questions about this rifle, so I'm hoping to start a discussion around it. Some of my questions are:
1) What is the likely date of this rifle?
2) Was it always a percussion cap?
3) How can I tell if there is still a ball/powder in it?
4) How should I be caring for it?
Please feel free to ask me any additional questions, or for more pictures of certain parts or whatever. I'd love to learn everything I can about this amazing rifle.
Oh, also to add, I did my best to measure the bore once and it seems to be about a .32 caliber. There are also still a few patches in the stock.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7ce33b3127ccec20c4e71626e00000010O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920071012194017819.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7ce33b3127ccec20dffc2836100000010O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920071012194018316.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7ce33b3127ccec20c754a22d000000010O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920071012194027328.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7ce33b3127ccec20d7afd42b400000010O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920071012194107790.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7ce33b3127ccec20c33f1224800000010O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920071012194107915.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
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I wanted to go ahead and post up some more photos.
Lock
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9decc655e7a00000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001107639.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Tang
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9deae2a5e0400000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001108154.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Ramrod pipes
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9dfe6cfffb900000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001108651.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9de2e63df3d00000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001109515.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Muzzle (sorry for the poor quality, flash was the only way to get my phone to focus on it)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9de63819f6100000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001109967.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Front sight
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9de6fd41e0200000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001110413.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Trigger guard
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9de928fdf8f00000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001111033.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9dfb673ff2d00000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001111602.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Toe plate
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9df2f59bfd300000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001112078.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9decdc49f7300000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001408964.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
I was looking between the rear sight and the tang for any kind of markings. There are several nasty gashes in it, but nothing that looked like initials except POSSIBLY this.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9df3cc6ffdd00000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706001409406.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
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I looked and and am not finding a listing for "McAfoose" in my library. Robb Watt may be of some help on this one with the Schrecangost (sp) connection. Looks to me to be an original percussion with an unusual drum and snail set up. You have a very nice rifle there that has obviously not been abused or dinked with over the years. Good Luck.
Mark
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It appears there is some engraving on the lock plate in the first picture,close up,,under the hammer and at the rear of the plate..
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The lock and snail setup is like every other Shreckengost rifle. The front sight with 4 circles punched on it are the same as on every other Shreckengost rifle The architecture bears similarity in basic outline, but lacks the fluid lines. Based on some other rifles that were also from the area in the late 1800s, I think this rifle might be the work of Lincoln Shreckengost. It's not the work of William Shreckengost. I think the inlays were possibly added later. I wish I could get a hands on look at it. Nice rifle and definitely connected to our family. Maybe in time additional info will come to light on this one. Thanks for sharing it with us. Are the toe plate and butt plate mortised together?
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Hi Hanzosbm,
Welcome to ALR. That's a nice looking rifle, and a family heirloom. I am envious.
Safety first. You asked how to tell if the rifle is loaded. You can use the ramrod as a measure. Drop the ramrod down the bore. When it stops, mark the rod with a piece of masking tape, even with the muzzle. Now withdraw the rod and lay it alongside the barrel with the tape mark even with the muzzle. If the barrel is not loaded, the end of the rod should reach to within about 1/2" of the breech end of the barrel. If the barrel is loaded or has some other obstruction, the breech end of the rod will be an inch or more from the end of the barrel.
There are others here that are more knowledgeable than I, but I will offer a few guesses. Based on the narrow and deep crescent buttplate, the patch/cap box, the number of inlays and it appears to have always been a half-stock, I would guess it was made mid to late 19th c. You might want to pull the barrel and see if there are any identifying marks on the bottom. If it has the name of the barrel maker, it might help you narrow the date. The lock appears to have been born a caplock. Good luck with your search.
-Ron
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Gentlemen (and potentially ladies),
Thank you all very much for the help you've offered thus far. I've taken some more pictures in an attempt to answer your questions.
First, J Henry, yes, there are some engravings. It looks like some scroll work and a bird of some kind, maybe a pheasant.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9dea5ca9f4900000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706023422076.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Shreckmeister, regarding the toe plate and butt plate, I took a few more pictures to try to clear it up. Honestly, I always thought it was a single piece until I dug it out to take some pictures. The two pieces are fitted very well.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9dee66fdf5500000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706023421149.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9dea47d5e5600000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706023421650.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Ky-Flinter, I tried the trick you suggested about the ram rod, here's what I got.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9ded2005e1000000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706023422735.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d924b3127ccee9dfb5a0bf6700000030O01Act2LdqzcMQe3nwM/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00108035717920150706023423590.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
It looks like it's probably not loaded, but you tell me.
Looking over these things, I had two additional questions. First, the ram rod sticks out proud of the barrel by about a half inch, is that normal?
Second, it has a double set trigger, but I'm not quite sure how they work and I'm worried I might have messed it up. It will not lock to the rear when I pull the hammer back unless I full pull the rear trigger pretty hard. Is that normal?
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Very pretty rifle.
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Hello all,
...
1) What is the likely date of this rifle?
2) Was it always a percussion cap?
3) How can I tell if there is still a ball/powder in it?
4) How should I be caring for it?
Well, i'm certainly no expert, but my advice is to leave it just as you found it. Whatever you do, don't "clean" on it-at all. A gentle waxing may be in order? I stand aside for wiser men to speak to this particular subject, but as I understand it- the polishing and shining up of _any_ antique permanently diminishes antique collector and artifact curator interest in the object by diminishing the accurate and original history of the object.
As to your additional questions just posted: yes appears to be empty. don't let any hamfisted persons open it up (this includes many modern gunsmiths sorry) but I'd pull the lock and check the triggers and all that way. Might also find more markings.
Double set means you pre-load the front trigger by pulling the rear one first. There could be some crud or crust built up inside there inhibiting the pull of the rear trigger--which will be much heavier than pulling the set front. The triggers should function with the cock down as well, if they don't then the lock may be causing the issue. confused yet? It's real easy once you get it. ;D
Also, tell us where you reside and you may find an ALR member or interested collector/curator nearby, or within a reasonable distance. That is the very safest and surest way to get "familiar" with your rifle. Put your location in your profile and we'll know without asking. ;)
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My apologies. I should've set my profile immediately but I got caught up in the excitement of potentially learning more, and I have.
I live in San Diego, California. As for any disassembly, that is certainly not something I'd ever try. Nor would I ever try any kind of 'restoration'.
Somewhat on a different note, however, someday I'd love to build a reproduction of this rifle. Not only would it be a great way to learn, but I'd be nice to display without fear of the original falling off the wall or being stolen.
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Great, there may be some West Coasters right here, plus you've already found Schreck-don't know if you can do much better.
Disassembly isn't really a big deal so long as one is familiar with longrifles and not marring things up. It is a part of regular maintenance when shooting LR's.
Restoration properly done is not a bad thing, but that's for top-level experts and generally reserved for truly degraded pieces. Your looks good as is.
Yes and heck yeah, a copy of that rifle is the best way to enjoy it without any chance of destroying or degrading the original. You could even hire that work done if you so desire. But doing it yourself is the thing most of us here are all about and will be glad to help you do.
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Pretty sure your lock is a Whitmore Wolff. They were a hardware dealer in Pittsburgh. The Shreckengosts used them a lot
and I've seen that bird on them. That's a great original finish on the rifle. I wish I knew what they used.
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Just thinking out loud with this thought, but I have seen the "modern" 5 sided star on several rifle's and shot guns. First thing to come to mind has always had to do with TEXAS for that area's use of this star form. I also wonder if the centennial year 1876 had anything to add influence upon it's use?? Anyone with ideas about this? Anyway, a very nice little squirrel getter there!
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Just a thought, but there was I believe, one of the Shreckengost daughters who lived in Texas after their marriage. That would fit in with the time frame of the 1870-80's.
Also, their is one other Wm. Shreckengost rifle out there with the same muzzle markings as on this rifle. It is however, signed in script on the barrel with the initials W * S, and has the usual tulip head patchbox with engraving.
I would tend to agree with Mr. Meister that this particular rifle was built IN William Shreckengost's shop...but by either his son (s ) Lincoln or Levi...probably Lincoln. Just my 2d worth.
From Armstrong County, Putneyville born and raised....I remain,
Shreck ( not Meister )
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Gentlemen, this is fantastic information!
With these new dates in mind, I think the picture is starting to become somewhat clearer.
My great grandfather, William Burton McAfoose was born in 1872 and I know that he was a gunsmith for a period of time. My uncle claimed that he did some of the inlays, so it is quite possible that this rifle was an evolution. My family (from the Rural Valley/Kittanning area) have never been wealthy, so they probably couldn't afford some of the beautiful pieces I've seen from the Shreckengost family. That being said, either by way of a favor to inlaws, a trade, or just buying a much simpler piece, it's possible they got this rifle or some of the components from the Shreckengost smiths. Moreover, the stock could be a replacement done by William for some reason. All of this is guessing of course.
It is unlikely that there would be a tie to Texas as my family has never been there, but who knows.
As I said before, I have no intention of trying to remove any of the finish. At the same time, I'd be really interested to know what kind of wood the stock is. It might provide some insight into whether or not the stock is original.
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Hanzosbm,
As a footnote, this is a really neat little rifle, and I too am curious as to the finish...very nice ;D
Mr. Meister, I believe that the lock is a J. Golcher. The identical lock is on a pistol made by the Shreckengost's.
And, I think I can see a vestige of the name on the roughed up area shown in the OP's pic.
In any case, a wonderful family heirloom. I thank Hanzosbm for sharing it with us...too many Shreckengost rifles never get to see the light of day, let alone shared with the muzzleloading community.
Shreck
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I'm glad I got the chance to share it, and I appreciate the kind words. Having been in our family for so long, I'm very proud of it and somewhat humbled to be its custodian. I inherited several other firearms that are probably close to as old, but no other traditional longrifles. I love this craftsmanship and I think it serves as a emblem of the men who helped to build this country. I thought it was fitting to learn so much about it on the 4th of July.
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Someone asked about the wood type, and judging from the 5th picture down, it looks like curly maple. That would be the typical wood for the time and likely being made in Penn. The black is just the old finish ageing/oxidizing with time.
Whether or not its a Shreckengost I can't say as I'm not that familiar with their work. However it does look like a typical rifle made about 1850 to about 1870, and of course could have been made on either side of that date.
Percussion locks with a pheasant, quail, rabbit or flying ducks must have been really popular, as they're seen on lot's of rifles of the period. It looks like it was a higher quality gun to begin with as the butt plate was silver plated and still has some remaining. I can't see if the trigger guard is or was plated as well, be expect it was? None the less, its a popular style used during the time.
Whether or not your family member actually made the gun, or just added inlays to it might never actually be known, but doesn't really matter. It's been owned and cared for by your forefathers, handed down, and now its your turn! Can't ask for much more than that!
If it were mine, I'd just give it a light coat of furniture wax (Goddard's, Renaissance) on the wood and metal, an oily patch down the bore, and a few drops of light oil on the lock and trigger works, and enjoy it!
By the way, I live in La Mesa, and if you want to get together sometime, shot me an email or PM.
John
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Hello JTR,
Thank you very much for the information on the curly maple. Like I said before, I have no intention of trying to remove any of the natural patina it has acquired, but at the same time, I would've loved to have seen this rifle in its prime.
It is also interesting to note the silver plating of the brass. To be honest, I never saw that. Of course my eye is not as experienced as yours. At the same time, it could be my camera.
I'll send you an email regarding a meet up.