AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: BartSr on July 21, 2015, 10:25:36 PM
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Today I went out with my Sharon barreled underhammer in .54 cal to the range. Last time I went out I forgot to pick up some of the patches to see what is going on with the weird groups. Today I retreived some of the patches but not all.
OK, so these are some of the patches I could find. The round white commercial patches totally disappeared! The dark patches are fine weave cotton camo and about 0.012 thick. The pillow ticking patches we all know about. Round balls used are Hornady 0.530 or 0.535 inch diameter and both exhibit the same results. Load started with 55gr of 777 FFg, then later dropped to 40gr of the same powder.
I have scrubbed the barrel with stainless steel wool (we get this stuff from the sheep that have no known enemies) wrapped around a .54 cal jag. Afterwards I can run a thick patch around a jag and it does not tear or rip going up and down the barrel.
My question is, what am I doing to make this mess or is it the barrel's internal roughness?
(https://sites.google.com/site/onlyonsaturdaynight/_/rsrc/1437504869333/home/underhammered-54/br54_pa.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/onlyonsaturdaynight/_/rsrc/1437504873978/home/underhammered-54/br54_pb.jpg)
And many thanks for any suggestions,
Paul
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There's been lots written and discussed on this site about your problem and this phenomenon. But to make it simple, here's my take...
1 - re-crown your muzzle using your thumb and some abrasive cloth. You need to break the sharp corners of the lands so that when you start the ball, the patch is not torn, stretched too far, or cut.
2 - use the softest lead for your balls you can find. Swaged commercial balls should be fine.
3 - use denim patch material from .018" to .022" thick with your combination. Commercial patches are too thin, IME, and not all ticking is good either. Lubricate the patch until it is SOAKED!
If you do those three things, you patches should be good enough to use several times.
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There's been lots written and discussed on this site about your problem and this phenomenon. But to make it simple, here's my take...
1 - re-crown your muzzle using your thumb and some abrasive cloth. You need to break the sharp corners of the lands so that when you start the ball, the patch is not torn, stretched too far, or cut.
2 - use the softest lead for your balls you can find. Swaged commercial balls should be fine.
3 - use denim patch material from .018" to .022" thick with your combination. Commercial patches are too thin, IME, and not all ticking is good either. Lubricate the patch until it is SOAKED!
If you do those three things, you patches should be good enough to use several times.
This is asbestos advice one can get I say. :P
My practical measure of a good patch, smooth crown, tight enough is when one can shoot the same patch at least 3 times and unlimited shots without in-between wiping. For hunting and "friendly" competition that is. ;)
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There's been lots written and discussed on this site about your problem and this phenomenon. But to make it simple, here's my take...
1 - re-crown your muzzle using your thumb and some abrasive cloth. You need to break the sharp corners of the lands so that when you start the ball, the patch is not torn, stretched too far, or cut.
2 - use the softest lead for your balls you can find. Swaged commercial balls should be fine.
3 - use denim patch material from .018" to .022" thick with your combination. Commercial patches are too thin, IME, and not all ticking is good either. Lubricate the patch until it is SOAKED!
If you do those three things, you patches should be good enough to use several times.
Thanks, will do.
Paul
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Yep, that looks to me the classic signs of a sharp crown cutting the patch as you load it.
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Denim soaking, my old 46 waist, well washed.
Hope you like this re-crown, all factory sharp edges removed. 320 grit then 1000 grit, wet/dry with oil. That's 1+1/8 inch across the flats.
(https://sites.google.com/site/onlyonsaturdaynight/_/rsrc/1437523238969/home/underhammered-54/br54_n.jpg?height=332&width=400)
Thanks everyone for the great tips, it's much appreciated.
Personal info updated, too.
Paul
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...
Thanks everyone for the great tips, it's much appreciated.
Personal info updated, too.
Paul
excellent grasshopper
;D
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Denim soaking, my old 46 waist, well washed.
Hope you like this re-crown, all factory sharp edges removed. 320 grit then 1000 grit, wet/dry with oil. That's 1+1/8 inch across the flats.
(https://sites.google.com/site/onlyonsaturdaynight/_/rsrc/1437523238969/home/underhammered-54/br54_n.jpg?height=332&width=400)
Thanks everyone for the great tips, it's much appreciated.
Personal info updated, too.
Paul
Looks very nice, now go out and shoot it and see how it does.
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Be sure and let the folks here know how this worked out for you at the range. Some other folks that might be experiencing your problem may benefit from the information. I would be very surprised if this doesn't cure your problem.
Mole Eyes
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Paul: am I seeing a bit of round file work on the grooves? That crown will not cut or tear your patches. Now throw away the hankie material and use some denim. Men's blue jean material is a little heavy - usually running .025" - .030". Women's jean material is about perfect, as is denim from some shirts. If using old blue jeans, use only the backs of the legs...the fronts are worn too thin and are likely too weak for the job. And saturate your patches to the point of dripping. The extra solution will not interfere with your powder charge. It gets squeezed so much that there's nothing much left to wet your powder. But the extra will take care of the bore's last shot fowling, which is all you''ll ever have to deal with all day long.
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Paul,
Listen to Taylor..... He's older and smarter!!
Definitely tighter, more durable patch will cure it, and make it shoot to its best.
I see you're in Snotsdale.... I'm in Mesa.
Lots of clubs and places to shoot here.
Let me know if I can help!
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Nothing I can add - well done.
Nice crown!
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Taylor pretty much nailed it but I'll suggest one more thing that I do. Use an op wad. It can be punched out of felt, Hornet nest, leather, a dry wadded up patch or a wad of paper. I use .030" ticking (.024" when compressed). While pretty snug, by using Hoppes #9 Plus BP lube the 20th shot loads as "easily" as the first or second. I use a range rod except when actually hunting so any load I use has to be safely doable with the under barrel wood rod. Good luck.
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Went back to the range to test that muzzle crown. Yes correct, small chainsaw files. I tried to be very careful in working on the crown to keep from being off-center, etc. While the modified crown reduced the loading effort the (same) patches still are coming out shredded. I do not feel any undue effort in pushing the RB+patch down the barrel. I tried loads from 60grs down to 40grs of 777 FFg and I ran out of the .530 RB's doing all of this "testing". I do have a box of .535 RB's still. I am not against trying smaller RB's in this testing.
I tried those unusually-thick mens jeans patches, I couldn't even get it started. ::) hahaha.
OK, I will look for some shirt/womens denim probably at Jo-Anns.
Also will make sure that the patch lube is really wet and will keep you posted.
@smallpatch: I shoot at the Usery Mountain Range for those of you in the AZ arena and do belong to the muzzle-stuffers club.
--- P.S.
In other "rifles" that I have, none of the same patch material ever shreds or tears. They are GM D.I.S.C. barrels with the bolt section factory removed and purchased as "internet specials" and a Jonathan Browning barrel found at a PDX gun-show. So I'm surprised that the patches used previously get a bad report with this barrel. This is my first try at a bench rest only rifle and yes, the stock has a tad too much drop.
And again, thanks to everyone for all of the comments and suggestions, I soak all of them up,
Paul
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You might want to check the diameter of your ball starter to see if it is too large as you start your load. If it is too large it will pinch the cloth against the sides of the lands and compromise the integrity of the weave which might be causing the burn through.
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Your crown appears to be perfect and didn't need those little rat-tailed file grooves in the grooves, but, they shouldn't hurt at all.
If the patches are still shredding as before, the patches lack the required integrity. They are too weak, too thin or the bore is toast from using Pyrodex, prior to this?
I use the really thick denim, 12 ounce, which measures .030"av. in my dial calipers squeezed as hard as possible on the tines between finger and thumb. My Mitutoyou mic, measures it at .025 - compressed hard. This is my favourite patch for my 14 bore rifle with a .684" pure lead ball. It is difficult to load with the WW ball from the same mould, so when I want to shoot hard lead, I use a .677" mould which throws .675" WW balls. they load beautifully with the heavy patch and do not burn out - AT ALL. I can actually use the same patch for a 5 shot group, picking it up, re-lubing it and shooting again and again.
What this mean- is something is wrong with your patch material - or barrel.
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Sir, I'll go out on a limb and say it is the Hodgens 777 that you are using that is causing the burned and shredded patches, it burns hotter and faster than Blackpowder or Pyrodex. If you can, try some blackpowder and see how it does.
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Your crown appears to be perfect and didn't need those little rat-tailed file grooves in the grooves, but, they shouldn't hurt at all.
If the patches are still shredding as before, the patches lack the required integrity. They are too weak, too thin or the bore is toast from using Pyrodex, prior to this?
I use the really thick denim, 12 ounce, which measures .030"av. in my dial calipers squeezed as hard as possible on the tines between finger and thumb. My Mitutoyou mic, measures it at .025 - compressed hard. This is my favourite patch for my 14 bore rifle with a .684" pure lead ball. It is difficult to load with the WW ball from the same mould, so when I want to shoot hard lead, I use a .677" mould which throws .675" WW balls. they load beautifully with the heavy patch and do not burn out - AT ALL. I can actually use the same patch for a 5 shot group, picking it up, re-lubing it and shooting again and again.
What this mean- is something is wrong with your patch material - or barrel.
Thanks.
This barrel had not been breached and was apparently NOS Sharon stock but unmarked (not stamped), according to the seller. Breech is 3/4 x 16. So far I've only used 777 FFg since I don't have any Goex FFg, yet. I do have Goex FFFg but was hesitant to use it in a .54 barrel.
I'll use the new denim I picked up today, two different weights - 8oz and 10oz from Hobby Lobby.
And will stay away from thinner patch material with this barrel.
Paul
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Bart, I have been using tripple seven powder since it came out and I can say from my own experience that 777 will not shread your patches provided you use a .25 to .30 denim patch, and decent powder loads. Just my own experiences.
topknot
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I'll use the new denim I picked up today, two different weights - 8oz and 10oz from Hobby Lobby.
And will stay away from thinner patch material with this barrel.
Paul
FFF will work fine, but as noted-powder is mostly likely not the culprit. You simply must work up separate loads for FF and FFF (and any other variation) for best performance.
8oz is pretty thin, you might be getting somewhere with 10. My jeans makers claim theirs is 14.75oz and that's what I like best. I buy logger pants and cut them off for HD (double front) shorts. Lots of "free" patch material!
Of course until the patch issue is resolved, shooting at paper really means nothing at all.
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Have you any idea how deep the grooves are cut on your barrel? I had to troubleshoot a patch integrity issue on a .54 Colerain which has, as close as I can tell, a .540 bore diameter, groove depth of 0.016" for a groove diameter of .572. I found a 10 oz duck (measuring 0.028 thick with light pressure and 0.020 thick with the caliper jaws under heavy finger pressure) worked well with a .527 ball. I've been wetting the patch through with Hoppes 9 Plus, but I think water works just about as well as long as the patch is soaked through to just short of dripping.
I'd expect 10 oz to work okay for you unless the Sharon barrel grooves are more like 0.010 or 0.012.
If your denim still shreds, try a few shots with about 50 grains by volume of cornmeal as a filler between powder and the patched roundball. The cornmeal will form a moving firewall between hot gasses and the patch and eliminate patch shredding due to gas-blowby. The recovered patches should be neat and clean and not even smell burned. If any of those patches isn't intact, that would suggest you have a sharp edge or rough spot cutting or tearing patches.
Good luck with it.
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I measure 8 ounce denim as .019" to .020" and 10 ounce as .022" to .0225" on the calipers - squeezed tightly as possible, between finger and thumb on the tines.
Note, different technique and tools can get you a HOST of DIFFERENT measurements on the same piece of cloth. I have 3 dial calipers and each gives a different reading even though they are used exactly the same way on the same piece of cloth. Taylor's mic gives a different reading than mine does - it depends on the size of the anvils in the different tools. Measuring hard objects should produce identical results, however soft compressible items are different. The measurements above are the average of my tools which just happens to be a new set of Hornady calipers. They are very nice, repeatable and never change.
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I am considering using .520 RB's just to see if this bore is a tad dight. ???
I have been searching for either a .520 mold or .520 RB's online, any clues from all y'all?
Paul
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I am considering using .520 RB's just to see if this bore is a tad dight. ???
I have been searching for either a .520 mold or .520 RB's online, any clues from all y'all?
Paul
Track of the Wolf sells .520 round balls, cast and swaged, as well as molds to cast .520 balls.
Mole Eyes
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I am considering using .520 RB's just to see if this bore is a tad dight. ???
I have been searching for either a .520 mold or .520 RB's online, any clues from all y'all?
Paul
There's this guy in the UK who will make you a mould (that's how they spellit) that will cast .517, .518, .519, .520, .521, .522, .523...etc. for a reasonable price. Just pick a size. They are made of brass and are not fitted with a sprue cutter. Some folks here love 'em. I love mine (in .530).
His name Jeff Tanner. The rest is easy enough to decipher. ;)
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Lyman used to make a .526" RB mould.
Most .54's are indeed, .540" and the best ball for them is a .535" with a 10 ounce patch - usually.
Many years ago, there was a barrel maker who cut rifled barrels, but they were tight at .530" bore with .010" rifling. A .535" ball would sit on the landsat the muzzle. iF A .535" ball will not sit on your lands, it is likely a .540" bore - measuring it is the best way to find out. You can not find out what size it is, by using a grossly undersized ball. You must measure it.
I have a section of that particular "tight" barrel on my flintlock pistol. I use a .526" RB (.004 under bore size) and a .020" patch - loading is easy and it shoots cleanly with the 55gr. 3f charge required to shoot well in the 60" twist- no wiping - EVER - while shooting a course of fire.
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Range Report July/26/2015
25 yds, 40gr of 777 FFg, various patches shown, reduced diameter round balls (shown), pushed through a pipe having an ID of 0.52 (approximately).
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-uJpxFQwjJm4%2FVbUsboke3cI%2FAAAAAAAACLg%2F_bGDjdZsvFQ%2Fs640%2Fbr54rr_b.jpg&hash=fddf8569e0d6804ea21bdc683a756859004331e3)
Upper patches mostly 0.030 thick; three are 0.025 thick while the wasted ones are 0.015 thick.
Looks like I need 0.520 round balls with those 0.030 denim patches.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ul4AQbIgs8o%2FVbUscJDadbI%2FAAAAAAAACLc%2FiAE_r2jCSLI%2Fs400%2Fbr54rr_e.jpg&hash=84140c04be99ebe4bd88804580e14f4bf312e6cb)
Red dots previous shootings.
Todays shots without burned patches is the center group, the two flyers are burned patches.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-boo6SNV6sZc%2FVbUscSWp5tI%2FAAAAAAAACLk%2FxqQQyfmotyQ%2Fs640%2Fbr54rr_f.jpg&hash=bcca890a6a1edc47b6ffdd9244c0f52caeb9f104)
Paul (Hoot!)
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Good shooting! what kind of round balls are those? It looks like they have a "belt" around them. ???
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I think you need more powder and more experimentation. Your groups might tighten up if you push the ball faster. You might need different lube and if you shoot larger loads your patch material might give up. All things you will need to check out.
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Good shooting! what kind of round balls are those? It looks like they have a "belt" around them. ???
Yes, they are "belted" because he "sized" them through a pipe to get a .520 "belt"-actually a waist.
So they're far from spherical and I expect their accuracy to fall off sharply, but things are looking much better!
Good for trying different things and getting the patching up to real thicknesses. Every gun has it's way.
...
But some truths are universal :D
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I think you need more powder and more experimentation. Your groups might tighten up if you push the ball faster. You might need different lube and if you shoot larger loads your patch material might give up. All things you will need to check out.
I did pick up some Hoppe's-9 and some Precision Lube 2000 both from Sportsman's Warehouse. Have tried both and I must say I prefer these to bore-butter. Will do on the powder load increases. Have been searching for 0.052 RB's and/or molds for the same size, not too many places have those.
Paul
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Paul - is that a 25 yard group?
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Paul - is that a 25 yard group?
@Daryl,
Yup, only because I was also trying out new settings on the rear sight. Will use the 50yd targets after getting the "near perfect" ball size and patch thickness along with the nicest load of FFg. ::) At least I hit the target paper.
Paul
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TKS for the explanation on target, sights and load.
Your picture of the denim patches shows a LOT of blow-by - the brown scorch marks from the groove marks, radiating out towards the edge of the patch are due to the power gases blowing past the patch in the bottom of the grooves. Those are the scorch marks I am referring to.
In extreme cases, the patch actually gets burn holes, but - there is gas/fire blowby according to the retrieved patches, which means the ball and patch combination is TOO loose. The 'group' also shows this as well - too loose.
Please do something for us.
File the sprue's corners off a .535" ball to make it a perfectly round, with no sprue projection and see if it will roll into the clean bore of your rifle - if it will roll in, it will roll right out again. If it will not roll in, you most likely have a .540" bore - not a tight one at all.
Because the length of the sides of your swaged balls, the patches will be VERY tight on the tops of the lands and feel like a tighter load than what you actually have. The scorch marks are proof of a loose fit in the bottom of the grooves.
If it will not enter easily, try this also with a .530" ball. You need to find out what the bore size is (even if you cannot measure it with calipers). Knowing the groove diameter is also helpful in determining the ball and patch combination that will work best.
The combinations you used on that target are not it.
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@Daryl, et al.
I ran out of both 0.530 and 0.535 RB's.
Range report for today.
25 yds, 60gr of 777 FFg, 0.030 denim patchs, simulated 0.52 RB's.
Yes, I was aiming at the corner bulls too.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xbYygdcWmY0%2FVbkjs_nAoDI%2FAAAAAAAACMk%2FAiIQsBRD5b8%2Fs400%2Fbr54rr_h.jpg&hash=b4c960b056a396b223998ab043f4f9a3499e4aed)
Yes, I know that this is NOT the way to measure ID's but it gets me into the ballpark.
Sorry for the fuzziness, it's a bit tough to hold all and take a pix too. Approx 0.547 or so.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-X9xqNKIUKX4%2FVbkjs58qb_I%2FAAAAAAAACMQ%2F9njhKBoUvZI%2Fs400%2Fbr54_p.jpg&hash=94bf6df8ba671db506a87038c5b3e4eec75e8f11)
approx 0.571 or so.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-FPMu157HaoI%2FVbkjsllcZkI%2FAAAAAAAACMY%2FKF_8I6cGJw8%2Fs400%2Fbr54_o.jpg&hash=65946af171804b48f8b400d96a184ae2eae77db4)
Tried 50yds, same loads. I guess I need more practice at 50yds.
My excuse is that I lost my glasses and was shooting without them, really! ::)
That rear sight is a bit fuzzy.
One was a Hornady .50cal 385gr hollowbased bullet with,
what my wife calls, a "twill" cotton 0.020 inch patch.
The Hornady bullet hit just to the right of center.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-th1ImJcmcoI%2FVbkjtsM9BNI%2FAAAAAAAACMw%2FAhuZi8nGKsM%2Fs400%2Fbr54rr_k.jpg&hash=ddcb42427b8470ba1bee94faeb781d6691634488)]
Just ordered a .530 RB Lee mold from TOTW.
Paul
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Hi Paul- showing a .547" bore and .571" groove to groove showing .012" deep rifling, means your bore is larger than the standard .540" & it has standard depth rifling.
For us, a .540" ball would be perfect in this oversized bore as it is already .007" smaller than the bore, whereas a .535" ball would be perfect in a .540" bore measurement - for a hunting or trail walk rifle.
Your barrel, being approximately .07" larger than standard, means a larger ball than standard is required, not small as you thought.
That is why your .030" patches are failing to seal - they are too thin for the tiny .520" ball- but might work with a .535" ball, which is already 12" smaller than the bore. The accuracy in the targets actually shows this.
With a larger ball, the accuracy will improve - but - you must learn to load it.
Here are different methods of loading- especially with the side by side. note it was loaded with a .562" ball and .0215" patch. I switched to using a .574" ball and a .0235" patch and loading was virtually identical. To the rest, sorry for yet again, posting these videos.
.45" pure lead ball, 10 ounce denim patch that I measured at .0225". The barrel had been loaded and fired approximately 50 or 55 times that day and had not been wiped at any time - just loaded and fired as we do. No patches burn and if picked up, could easily be reloaded and shot again. They are not scorched, either and are still dam.
Note- Ross is shooting a smoothbore with round ball and a fairly snug patch. It actually loaded no quicker than the rifle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4&hash=a90b5ece3eb7a877c815f16f74ded5a2cb7f1e56) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4)
This is me with my .58 Kodiak and the undersized .562" pure lead balls in a .580" bore with .008" rifling depth.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_P1122037.mp4&hash=c6023c4dd23175e0b41a7941f94fc5570d1e8378) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/P1122037.mp4)
lastly, this is brother Taylor shooting his .50 Virginia rifle with a .490" ball and .022" denim patch. The rifling in this gun is .016" deep and with over 85gr. of powder, it will start to scorch the patches in some grooves, causing flyers. This rifle needs a .495" ball, which I believe Taylor adopted after this experiment.
None of these guns EVER needs wiping during a day's shooting.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_DSCN1983.mp4&hash=2254a0387fda59a3990b4190798d47bfeb333d95) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/DSCN1983.mp4)
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Moulds, any size, brass? Jeff Tanner in the UK. Excellent service and prices. Fast delivery. Lots of USA customers.
Perfectly round and precise cast roundball? A ball roller. Pedersoli sell one but easy for an engineer to make up. Basis is two parallel steel plates, one rotated above the other with the cast balls between, surrounded by a fence. A drop of oil for lubrication. Can be power driven. I have a heavier one made by a friend and powered by my cordless drill. Note: the East India Company rolled all their rifle and musket balls till replaced by swaged.
Patch thickness determined by groove depth. Shallow groove, thin patch. Deep groove, thick patch. E.g. cotton sheet up to pillow ticking. Got to have high thread count, tight weave. Denim ain't as tight as ticking. Got to fill those grooves and little more. So thin patch, wider ball. Thick patch, narrower ball. Pretty much a trial and error fit to get it right. Likely to need ball 0.01 inch undersize for thick patch and 0.005 inch for thin patch. We are talking smart rap to seat patch/ball into muzzle, short starter to start load then ramrod to push down. A drawn ball should show the patch weave impressed into the lead.
Patches only need to wrap the ball up and over the circumference (and a bit more). Too big and they can ruck up ahead of the ball and will affect accuracy.
Lube is important. Wet is best. Neatsfoot oil or similar works well. Patches in a small tin, drizzle over, let soak. Use on the wet side of dampened. Won't affect powder for target shooting. Excess squeezed off onto the bore as the ball is seated. Will help clean fouling, important with tight fit. And deter burning/charring.
Good luck.
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Not sure if you've picked up this tidbit yet, so I'm going to state it clearly: a "tight enough" loading DOES require a ball starter and mindful operation of the packing stick. Just as you see in Daryl's loading videos.
I have some storebought 535's around here somewhere I can ship to you. They're too big for me to use a substantial patch with, so I don't use them.
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The right combination will show patch weave at both lands and grooves. Just a lighter impression of the patch in the area of the grooves.
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I did have a panic moment when loading that .50 Hornady 385gr bullet with that 0.03 denim patch. :-[
Used a hammer to get it started and had to yank on the T-handled aluminum ramrod a lot to get it all of the way down. The folks watching me were razzing me to see if it would blow up, calling me "pipebomb".
@Daryl,
After watching those 3 "movies" I realized that they show relative ease in pushing the ramrod and combo down their barrels. That isn't what I am doing with these 0.03 denim patches not anywhere near that easy. And if a .50 bullet and a .03 patch were that tight in this barrel I may be quite sore after a days shooting.
I do really appreciate all of the information pouring out to help me get this barrel shooting correctly,
Paul aka "pipebomb".
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My own feelings are patches start at .018" to .020". To me, a .005" to .015" patch is of no use what-so-ever - not even for cleaning - a snot rag, maybe(handkerchief).
I've yet to find a ticking as thick as 12 and 14oz. denim. The thickest ticking I've found and I still have some, is a drk blue/lgt blue/red/white mattress ticking we call railroad ticking. Well washed, it's nice and soft and measures .0235" for me with the calipers. It works in EVERY rifle I have except the .69, which demands .030" (12oz) denim with anything but a squib load of 82gr. In every gun except the .32, I use a ball that is .005" under bore size with that same .0235" ticking. The .32, even with it's narrow grooves .008" deep, gets a .0320" ball and the same patch. The smaller the ball, the more easily they 'draw' into the bore.
All loads quite easily with the rifle's rod.
Here is a 5 shot group with a 20 bore smoothbore, one sight - no rifling - at 28 yards. A rifle should/must do better than this or something is wrong that can easily be corrected. Had a flyer, but with no rifling, it is to be expected - or I screwed up, which is entirely possible.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP3062077.jpg&hash=e8ac2982359af57d75e0ea8ca090412f9b5a2e72) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/P3062077.jpg.html)
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My own feelings are patches start at .018" to .020". To me, a .005" to .015" patch is of no use what-so-ever - not even for cleaning - a snot rag, maybe(handkerchief).
I've yet to find a ticking as thick as 12 and 14oz. denim. The thickest ticking I've found and I still have some, is a drk blue/lgt blue/red/white mattress ticking we call railroad ticking. Well washed, it's nice and soft and measures .0235" for me with the calipers. It works in EVERY rifle I have except the .69, which demands .030" (12oz) denim with anything but a squib load of 82gr. In every gun except the .32, I use a ball that is .005" under bore size with that same .0235" ticking. The .32, even with it's narrow grooves .008" deep, gets a .0320" ball and the same patch. The smaller the ball, the more easily they 'draw' into the bore.
All loads quite easily with the rifle's rod.
Here is a 5 shot group with a 20 bore smoothbore, one sight - no rifling - at 28 yards. A rifle should/must do better than this or something is wrong that can easily be corrected. Had a flyer, but with no rifling, it is to be expected - or I screwed up, which is entirely possible.
(pix snipped)
Daryl,
OK, thanks for the railroad ticking info. Out here in the wild west, any ticking available in local Jo-Ann stores is really cheap ticking, very thin and sort of crummy. I have samples of both colors, the red being about 0.014 and the blue not much more.
I guess I need to look for the "real" ticking that you folks use.
Paul
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Paul
At my local "JoAnn Fabric" store in Washington they had the ticking like you mentioned, and I thought the same as you did, not very substantial fabric. So I kept looking and found a bolt of 100% cotton "twill" I think it was. It measures a bit over .020 with my caliper. I have used it successfully in my .54 Hawken that has a Bobby Hoyt barrel. Might look for that it you get back to the store. Good Luck!
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Just picked up a 1/4 yard (less than 2 bucks) of Bull Denim, natural color, 0.022 thick before washing. It appears diagonal striped one side while the other side is smooth. Lost about 1 inch on each edge due to raveling. A two fingered squeeze on the dial calipers jaws gives me 0.023 inch thick.
PipusBombus.
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Bart - that .022" material might be just the ticket for .535" or better yet, .540's - I'd accept the .535's from Wade - $#*! of a great offer for a test.
I wash the patch material I purchase, twice - once with soap, the second a full cycle in just water. The patches usually gain .001" with washing, but sometimes actually lose thickness, not a good thing.
One way to find what you should use, is to measure the diameter of the ball & the interior dimensions of the bore.
Thus- your bore as measured with calipers = .547" and .571"
Thus with a .535" ball + 2x .022"(both sides) = .579". So far so good. Ball+ patch = .579" - groove diameter of .571" = .008 meaning that there will be .008 divided by 2 = .004" compression in the bottoms of the grooves - each and every one of them. That means this combination will definitely seal a light or moderate load - probalby to 90gr. 2F More, I do not know - you will have to shoot and recover patches to see.
Now - & also - just because you have the #'s to theoretically seal the bore and grooves, does not mean the load will shoot accurately - that is where experimentation with loads and further experimentation with patch thicknesses and lube come in. Incidentally, Sam NEVER shot a load this tight - if he did, he wouldn't have needed then experimenting with wads of various materials to attempt to get a seal.
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Daryl,
With all of the past info and even this newer info, I think I will be trying different powder loads next.
Paul
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I had an issue with shredded patches that looked like the ones shown here.
It was oxidation on the bore. All the patches I found were shredded.
I tried putting a couple of R.E.A.L.s down the bore with one haveing Clover as lube.
It worked well. Then as I fired, the patch polished the bore. It just took that one experiment with lube to smooth the roughness.
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Firelapping (with lead bullets and valve grinding compound in the grooves) as "docone" mentions above, can help a lot in some bores not too badly pitted. That is the 'frosting' he speaks of - fine pitting - if full length, is generally due to the cumulative effect of flash rusting from using boiling or almost boiling hot water for cleaning. It can also be due to neglect, but that usually causes deeper pitting yet and much deeper in the breech.
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Firelapping (with lead bullets and valve grinding compound in the grooves) as "docone" mentions above, can help a lot in some bores not too badly pitted. That is the 'frosting' he speaks of - fine pitting - if full length, is generally due to the cumulative effect of flash rusting from using boiling or almost boiling hot water for cleaning. It can also be due to neglect, but that usually causes deeper pitting yet and much deeper in the breech.
I was wondering about internal barrel roughness since this was a NOS barrel having never been sealed or shot. Maybe the age of it sitting around for years made it a bit rough inside and wasn't me cleaning it for sure. I can pickup some .54 Hornady bullets and shoot those to help smooth out said barrel internals.
Paul
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My suspicion is that the combination of a cut rifled barrel, and a nearly bore sized ball, and a heavy patch, combined with a propellant that advertises that it is hotter than black powder, is the problem.
I was taught to shoot the tightest patch ball load that I could get down the barrel. But, I was shooting modern production guns, with button rifling.This combination shot very well in production, and, kit guns. But, Button rifling is ironed in, not cut, so it is inherently smooth, with little or no sharp edges. This is not at all true of cut rifling like the barrel you have. Try shooting a smaller ball, with black powder (not Captain Whizzbangs magic powder) patched with some new cotton pocket drill( new, because cotton degrades over time) about fifteen thousandths thick. Your load has to be loose enough so when the ball obturates, it doesn't force the patch into the sharp cut rifling hard enough to cut it.
Hungry Horse
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Daryl,
Could you explain the "Fire Lapping" procedure in greater detail and when to and not to use it
Just trying to learn something new
Thanks
Jeff
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Range Report, Aug/07/2015.
Still shooting without my prescription glasses which seemed to have disappeared.
50yds, 55grs of 777-FFg, 0.530 roundballs from my newly arrived Lee mold, 0.022 Bull Denim patches.
Some of the patches were 0.030 blue denim.
The paper target shot using the bull denim patches.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-6UNQoKS-mQ8%2FVcUYfC09BZI%2FAAAAAAAACNU%2FWJf_2dJq1cg%2Fs1600%2Fbr54rr_m.jpg&hash=5dbd79fa160dc80a1856307d9e1d16fa2824a996)
This dirty-bird target shot using both bull and blue denim patches.
Sorry don't know which hole is which patch.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ZHE9ceYsoLM%2FVcUYfPmiTZI%2FAAAAAAAACNY%2FJbVrfAR-Rkg%2Fs400%2Fbr54rr_n.jpg&hash=735d963eb23955cbbd81f9496bc666d68de8e045)
Thanks to all - for all of the great information and tireless helping. ;D
I found only two of the patches, one Bull Denim and one Blue Denim since it's monsoon season and was raining cats/dogs/pumas, etc. Those two patches were not ripped but reuseable.
All loads went down fairly easily but did require a tap from a wooden mallet for the start.
Bull Denim (Jo-Ann description here) is natural color and ravels quite heavily during washing. Have someone either pink (pinking scissors) or zigzag stitch the edges before washing.
Paul :D ::)
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Daryl,
Could you explain the "Fire Lapping" procedure in greater detail and when to and not to use it
Just trying to learn something new
Thanks
Jeff
Jeff- I have never fire lapped a ML barrel, but others have. You should have a steel loading rod to guarantee seating the bullet on the powder.
We've hand lapped a number of barrels, doing my first one back in 1974 I believe it was, where I lead-lapped in a .002" choke in a Bauska barrel for shooting slugs. It was splendidly accurate with both MaxiBalls and as well as a 450gr. Lyman HB mould I had. Ned Robert's book gives direstions on lead lapping.
For fire lapping, you have to impress grit in te form of valve grinding compound into the lead bullet's bearing surfaces. Rolling the bullets on a sheet of glass or steel in grit will do this. Due to the lack of lubricity, this is where the steel rod comes in handy when loading these. You can lube them as normal- with a black powder softening lube.
It may take 40 shots to smooth out the barrel. MOST of the cutting or smoothing will take place in the breech to 1/2 way point of the barrel. If the barrel is rough full length, then lead lap it as described in Robert's book.
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When I buy patch material from Joann's I wash it on the delicate cycle doesn't seem to unravel as much. Also to cut my patches I use a mat made by fiskars and a clear quilters rule, the rule is 6" wide by 24" in long and has ridges on the bottom which holds the fabric. The mat is 17" by 24"also made by fiskars. I use a rotary cutter and cut strips of material or patches. I think Joann's carry these items.
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Daryl,
Thank you,
Jeff
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A couple of things to consider. Patch material that ravels badly in the washing machine is usually an indication of low thread count, which means weak material, which equals blown patches. Fire lapping has ruined as many barrels as it has fixed. Hand lapping with a cast lead lap is safer, but should only be done if you are sure the bore has a rough spot. If you can't feel a rough spot with a tight patch on a cleaning jag, you probably don't have a rough spot.
Hungry Horse
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Just picked up a 1/4 yard (less than 2 bucks) of Bull Denim, natural color, 0.022 thick before washing. It appears diagonal striped one side while the other side is smooth. Lost about 1 inch on each edge due to raveling. A two fingered squeeze on the dial calipers jaws gives me 0.023 inch thick.
PipusBombus.
I use that a lot. Cut with pinking shears to minimize fraying. I usually just wash by hand in coffee can with a splash of detergent in hot water and a couple of hot water soak/rinses. Works well in my 50s with .495s and my .40 with .395s.
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@Daryl,
After watching those 3 "movies" I realized that they show relative ease in pushing the ramrod and combo down their barrels. That isn't what I am doing with these 0.03 denim patches not anywhere near that easy. And if a .50 bullet and a .03 patch were that tight in this barrel I may be quite sore after a days shooting.
Do NOT use a cloth patch with a BULLET. Bullets are meant to be shot bare - with a lube.
The only BULLETS designed to be shot with cloth patches, were the short, weirdly shaped picket bullets - google it. They have VERY short bearing surface sides so the patch can fold properly around their noses. Elongated bullets do NOT work well with cloth patches. The only patches used with elongated bullets were paper patches & these were used in fast twist, shallow rifled barrels. Google that too, if interested. 48" and slower twists are not meant for shooting elongated bullets - some shot OK with them on paper or for perhaps for shooting very lightly boned animals like deer.
They, the bullets from round ball twist rifles do not work well on moose, rather they work poorly on moose - generally glancing off bones and "coursing through the soft parts of the body" creating 'minor' wounds of small diameter. This, we saw here in BC - the failure of these bullets in round ball twist rifles, assisted in the game branch's idea that ML's were not suitable for moose - the "special' primitive season was closed down for moose. To eliminate the modern bolt action ML's, the season was reopened for side hammer ML's with round balls only, but only for deer. due to the plethora of lost wounded (found dead and rotting) bull moose that were shot with slugs from RB twist rifles, the game branch was still of the opinion that a round ball could not kill a moose and be collected by the hunter. In moose camp, I heard all TOO often from slug shooting hunters, "I got maxis into 3 moose but lost them all, I must have only grazed them because there was hair but no blood". They did not know that their non-expanding bullets made tiny slit entrances, not round holes that leaked. Even when shot with round balls, the slightly larger "hole" can still be easily covered by fat as soon as the moose moves.
We also found round balls were deadly on moose from .50 cal. on up. One fellow even had good luck with a .45 round ball on a bull moose, however the range was only 50 yards. The .54 cal. through .75 cal. were very good indeed on moose. The larger the ball diameter, the better they worked - little wonder in that. Ask Bob in the Woods if his 10 bore (.77 cal.) is good for moose.
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@Daryl,
After watching those 3 "movies" I realized that they show relative ease in pushing the ramrod and combo down their barrels. That isn't what I am doing with these 0.03 denim patches not anywhere near that easy. And if a .50 bullet and a .03 patch were that tight in this barrel I may be quite sore after a days shooting.
Do NOT use a cloth patch with a BULLET. Bullets are meant to be shot bare - with a lube.
The only BULLETS designed to be shot with cloth patches, were the short, weirdly shaped picket bullets - google it. They have VERY short bearing surface sides so the patch can fold properly around their noses. Elongated bullets do NOT work well with cloth patches. The only patches used with elongated bullets were paper patches & these were used in fast twist, shallow rifled barrels. Google that too, if interested. 48" and slower twists are not meant for shooting elongated bullets - some shot OK with them on paper or for perhaps for shooting very lightly boned animals like deer.
They, the bullets from round ball twist rifles do not work well on moose, rather they work poorly on moose - generally glancing off bones and "coursing through the soft parts of the body" creating 'minor' wounds of small diameter. This, we saw here in BC - the failure of these bullets in round ball twist rifles, assisted in the game branch's idea that ML's were not suitable for moose - the "special' primitive season as closed for moose. We also found round balls were deadly on moose from .50 cal. on up. One fellow even had good luck with a .45 round ball on a bull moose, however the range was only 50 yards. The .54 cal. through .75 cal. were very good indeed on moose. The larger the ball diameter, the better they worked - little wonder in that. Ask Bob in the Woods if his 10 bore (.77 cal.) is good for moose.
Probably an early proponent of the picket bullet was N.G.Whitmore that made a presentation picket ball rifle as a presentation piece for General Grant after the Civil War. He made a gain twist,12 groove barrel that put 10 of these weird bullets on a lid of a percussion cap box at 110 yards when the gun was tested. Whitmore's only comment was that he thought General Grant would find the 38 caliber rifle a good piece for target or hunting.
Bob Roller
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Within it's range capabilities, the 10 bore is the best moose or any large game gun I have used. For a longer range capability, my rifled .62 flintlock gun is the #2 most used firearm I hunt with. I only wish that I had the benefit of this hard learned info some 30 + years ago.
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Range Report for Aug/28/2015. ;D
All Targets: 50 yds, 52 gr 777 FFg, .530 RB self-cast, Bull Denum Patches lubed with Hoppes 9 Plus.
First fuzzy target (sorry)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TeWd8HwKE-o%2FVeC5vepbwhI%2FAAAAAAAACPA%2FlYmgh5kR1RA%2Fs320%2Fbr54rr_o.jpg&hash=0ce6102c8e6464dd8309f45526c7533a99a787b8)
Second Fuzzy Target (ditto)
That clover-leaf hole has at least four shots through it and I lost count. I started shooting elsewhere not telling if the target was even hit at all.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ztDwmYPSJHQ%2FVeC5vU0IjkI%2FAAAAAAAACPE%2FSDw1St-xWLg%2Fs320%2Fbr54rr_p.jpg&hash=a32a023996b2636b420532712515c416818bb3f8)
Third Target
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-qpPoOD03sj0%2FVeC5vTfLktI%2FAAAAAAAACPM%2FSQokBRJ5yNs%2Fs320%2Fbr54rr_q.jpg&hash=55cf99ccc99912b3bbad30bf9461664f2aff99d7)
Barrel is becoming smoother to load and I'm starting to calm down a bit and not jerk the trigger.
For this barrel this is the 50 yard load and rear sight setting.
After we move this month, I can go out and do the 100 yard run.
The rear sight is still too close and I may have to relocate it further towards the front to keep it in focus.
Thanks again for all of you folks helping to get this barrel working.
Paul
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Best wishes, Paul - don't give up.
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For you old guys who have a long focal length up close, I may have a solution. I can see adequately out to the targets, so I don't wear glasses, although my brother insists that I'm blind. I bought a pair of .75 diopter readers at the drug store, and they are amazing for clarifying the rear sight. Now I see the front sight dead level with the top of the rear sight, and the target is just a little fuzzy. It has dramatically improved my shooting accuracy.
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.5's might even be better, however there are no .75's nor .5's in our city. I looked everywhere I could think of. The local optometrist, suggested I pay him $175.00 and he'd make be up a set of glasses with 2 lenses - a +2.50 and a -.200. That way, I'd have a +.50. The lens system would clamp (flip-ups) on regular sunglasses or glasses with clear lenses. He made up a dummy set for me to try that were just awful!
However, if you can find a set of .75's or .5's- try them. They work for Taylor (too well).
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.5's might even be better, however there are no .75's nor .5's in our city.
Take a look at www.eyefatigue.com for their 'computer glasses.' I've bought low diopter glasses from them in the past that I still use for shooting.
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.5's might even be better, however there are no .75's nor .5's in our city.
Take a look at www.eyefatigue.com for their 'computer glasses.' I've bought low diopter glasses from them in the past that I still use for shooting.
Excellent- here's pair of .25's.
http://www.eyefatigue.com/low-power-reading-glasses/ and for $24.95 + shipping. Wonder if they'll ship over the border? Are export licenses needed for non-gun paraphernalia?
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I am certain that there would be no issue ordering these from the USA, Daryl. I think I'll try some .5's.
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Tried to order a pair of 25's and 50's - I do not use PayPal so could not proceed.
I may call them on the phone next week and see if I can order over the phone.
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OK, first time using x-sticks, first time for 100yds.
Five shots went, four hit. First hit at the 10 ring, the rest well I got tired in this Arizona heat. (Good excuse eh?)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-AxwljMpVb_g%2FVfhfnqNxz8I%2FAAAAAAAACQY%2F3Sge9wIDDBk%2Fs320%2Fbr54rr_r.jpg&hash=eef120a536d2258572b76b739ea7e33e3f7100fe)
At least I hit the paper. Our "Muzzle Stuffers" ring leader is trying to get us ready for the state shoot.
Paul
P.S. I picked up a Kit Hawken Flinter in .45 cal (in pieces). Parts missing of course but it seems to be mostly there.
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Just a note:
Today, following my wife into Jo-Ann's (East Mesa, AZ, Recker & Main) I found some "ACA TICKING" (J0-Ann product number = 400011200701) looks just like the blue pillow ticking except it's 0.018 inches thick before washing. Cost $7.99/yd but I had an android Jo-Ann coupon for 20% off. I got the yard plus a remnant (1.69yds) for $6.75 which includes AZ taxes.
BartSr
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Just a note:
Today, following my wife into Jo-Ann's (East Mesa, AZ, Recker & Main) I found some "ACA TICKING" (J0-Ann product number = 400011200701) looks just like the blue pillow ticking except it's 0.018 inches thick before washing. Cost $7.99/yd but I had an android Jo-Ann coupon for 20% off. I got the yard plus a remnant (1.69yds) for $6.75 which includes AZ taxes.
BartSr
You need to tear test this stuff. I have stopped buying blue stripe ticking. All the JoAnns seems to be from China and tears easily down the length of the bolt. Too easily for patching. So I tear test in the store. Denim seems to work OK. So far.
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Keep track of your used patches. I have a Hoyt 62cal barrel that has given two of us fits with torn patches. We have recrowned, changed patching material, changed lube, changed ball size all to no avail. Before the last range test, I run a green Scotchbright pad wrapped around an undersized jag 20 or so times full length of the bore. Load development is incomplete, but it no longer shreds patches and is shooting as expected.
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Just a note:
Today, following my wife into Jo-Ann's (East Mesa, AZ, Recker & Main) I found some "ACA TICKING" (J0-Ann product number = 400011200701) looks just like the blue pillow ticking except it's 0.018 inches thick before washing. Cost $7.99/yd but I had an android Jo-Ann coupon for 20% off. I got the yard plus a remnant (1.69yds) for $6.75 which includes AZ taxes.
BartSr
You need to tear test this stuff. I have stopped buying blue stripe ticking. All the JoAnns seems to be from China and tears easily down the length of the bolt. Too easily for patching. So I tear test in the store. Denim seems to work OK. So far.
I cannot tear this stuff, it feels like canvas.
Paul
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Bart
Jo-Anns sells canvas patch material my buddy and I have used for years. It has the same weave on both sides. It is .0215 to .022 in diameter. I have used the Bull Denim that you tried also but it seemed to be .024 in diameter. One thing to note. When you hold these cloths (any of it) to a light and can see little pin holes of light try it again after washing and drying in a dryer. The fabric will shrink up so tight you will no longer see any pinholes of light. Plus it is softer.
That canvas fabric I mentioned that Jo-Anns sells comes in a bunch of different colors including Blaze orange.
Bob