AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: bones92 on July 22, 2015, 09:13:22 PM
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I know, it's a total newbie question, but before I order the wrong thing, I should ask some questions.
How do you determine what is the right flint size for a rifle? I see dimensions listed, which I assume are length and width.
Should I measure the width of the jaws of the cock for proper width?
And for length, should I measure (while at half-cock) the distance from the clamping screw to the face of the frizzen, and back off about 1/8"?
I assume it is desirable to be able to close the frizzen while at half-cock, thus the flint should not touch at half-cock.
And I believe I've read here that the flint should contact the frizzen around 2/3 up from the bottom of the frizzen face. Is that correct?
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Most suppliers who sell flints have the proper sizes listed for the various locks. ToTW is a good reference though not the only one. Go to their flint second, find your lock and get the size flint listed for it.
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Okay, but that assumes I know what kind of lock I have.
In one case, it's an old Turner Kirkland .40, and the other it's a custom built rifle with Bill Large barrel and what I think is a DGW lock.
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Hi ya Bones,
Knapped gun flints are usually sold by sizes in 1/8" increments, but they are rarely exactly the listed dimensions. Knapping is more art and mystery than science.
Should I measure the width of the jaws of the cock for proper width?
That's a good starting point. You might could go a little wider, but not wider than the face of the frizzen. Some cock jaws are a bit narrow.
And for length, should I measure (while at half-cock) the distance from the clamping screw to the face of the frizzen, and back off about 1/8"?]
Again a good starting point, but remember not all knapped flints will be exactly the listed dimension. You don't need an 1/8" clearance between flint and frizzen at half-cock. As long as the flint isn't contacting the frizzen and holding it open, you'll be fine.
I assume it is desirable to be able to close the frizzen while at half-cock, thus the flint should not touch at half-cock.
True.
Bones,
Since you've said you are new to this, I think it is only fair to warn you that once you strike flint to frizzen, there's no going back. You will be hooked.
-Ron
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Start by measuring from the screw to the frizzen face at half cock. Then subtract the leather thickness and some clearance for the flint to frizzen gap at half cock. After that you can adjust the gap for best sparking. Width is no wider than the frizzen face. The flints are never exact. I grind them to reduce the thickness.
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Ok, good stuff gents. I appreciate the guidance.
Ron, you don't know the half of it. I haven't even fired any of my flintlocks yet, and I'm already hooked.
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OK, so maybe most everyone knows more than me but having gone through your stage only a year or so ago let me add a thought or two.
From what I have seen the measurements given tend to represent the width of the flint and that was confirmed recently by an outfitter recently when I purchased a few new ones. It seems like once the width is established they tend to be "napped" in a length that is proportional to the width (but not the same as).
I do not want a flint that is wider than the frizzen, in fact I want one smaller than the frizzen width. All of the frizzens on my rifles have 1 inch faces so I look for flints that are sold as "3/4 inches", but the measurements are rarely exactly correct.
I have purchased some from ToW as well as on ebay. I usually ordered several at a time and it never fails that one or two are odd shapes and don't fit well, and some even too long or two short. I think that's the reality of bulk purchases. Now, I only purchase from a local outfitter and I select each one based on width, length and shape. I don't care for those with big humps or irregular edges.
Another discovery about flint size is that one needs to be careful the inside edge or point does not hit the barrel when fired. You can put it in the jaws, offset to the outside if necessary. And you can align it so the edge strikes the frizzen squarely.
If it seems too long in the jaws, you can notch the leather where it contacts the jaw screw and get a very slight reduction in how far it sticks out of the jaw (by the thickness of the leather).
I have also found one that is too short will either not spark enough and/or will not kick the frizzen back to fully open the exposure to the pan powder. Easy to adjust it forward should that happen.
And one last word. Be careful with them! They generally as sharp as a knife and will cut you badly. And when closing the frizzen keep your fingers out from the space between the flint and frizzen as it closes. Accidentally, I failed to do that two days ago and have a very nasty cut on my right thumb just above the nail.
More than you asked but that's my take.
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Molly is correct; flints are scalpel sharp. I don't know of any flintlock shooter who hasn't been cut several times, unless he's very new to the sport. It's not all that rare that I will suddenly notice blood on my rifle. My range box carries a box of Band Aids.
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Molly is correct; flints are scalpel sharp. I don't know of any flintlock shooter who hasn't been cut several times, unless he's very new to the sport. It's not all that rare that I will suddenly notice blood on my rifle. My range box carries a box of Band Aids.
Shooting box, possibles bag/fishing box or bag, and in the truck - LOL. I remember first time I used Rich's river rocks, I knapped one in the cock's jaws, though about how hard & sharp it seemed, fired a shot, wiped off the fouling and opened up my finger - WIDE. Mere pressure against the edge, parted the flesh. Cool!
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A folded cleaning patch and some duct tape will work too. Not as pretty maybe but it stops the bleeding.
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I wipe the fouling from the flint using a patch or two between my finger and the flint. Saves on bandaids.
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A folded cleaning patch and some duct tape will work too. Not as pretty maybe but it stops the bleeding.
Exactly! First aide at it's best. Barring the tape, a strip of patch material, wound around the hand, binding the bunched up piece of shirt padded into a palm wound, the ends split and tied, also stems the blood flow from the hole of a ram-rod wound. ::)
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I usually keep a piece/strip of patching material in my pocket or stuck under my belt for wiping the flint. After it gets old, I use it for shooting. I was shooting in chilly weather and started seeing red spots on my equipment. Finally dawned on me it was blood. I was cut and didn't even feel it in the chilly temps.
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So having a sharp edge on the flint is key to good sparking. Got it.
Do you use a file to sharpen the flint? It seems a file is the best way to get a sharp and straight edge.
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Molly is correct; flints are scalpel sharp. I don't know of any flintlock shooter who hasn't been cut several times, unless he's very new to the sport. It's not all that rare that I will suddenly notice blood on my rifle. My range box carries a box of Band Aids.
That's a relief, I thought that it was only me! ;)
~Tony
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I know all the purists will frown upon this but a guy showed me something at the range yesterday that seems to work very well.
It is a small credit card sized "diamond dust" file. Not really a file as such but he used it to clean up the edges of his flint and it worked VERY well. Said he got it at the local "Woodcrafters" store. Another guy said another item is available at Lowe's or Home Depot which is more like a file.
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So having a sharp edge on the flint is key to good sparking. Got it.
Do you use a file to sharpen the flint? It seems a file is the best way to get a sharp and straight edge.
Bones,
There are different ways to sharpen traditional knapped flints, but a knapping hammer like this one http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1316/1/HAMMER-FLINT is the most common and probably quickest way. Diamond files or something like that would be needed to sharpen a sawed flint I suppose. I didn't have much liking for the performance of sawed flints when I tried them. However some folks say they work fine for them.
Mole Eyes
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The guy that showed us the thing was not using it on a cut flint but just to clean up the edge on his napped flint. I have tried doing that same thing using the more traditional approach but I don't do it well and the flint ends up being worse than when I started. This hopefully will allow me to extend the life of my flints.
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This could be a bad idea, it is merely what I have been doing and it therefore may have some draw backs that I am not aware of: To sharpen your flint hold the cock (with the sear released) in one hand and the partly open frizzen in the other. Work the top edge of the flint against the bottom edge of the frizzen face.
Couple of firm "scrapes" and the flint gets sharp. No need for extra tools or skill. Wear glasses and do not do it over your living room carpet those shards will burrow!
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I use a diamond hone, under water, to flatten the hump on flints so they will hold better in the jaws of the cock. They're not expensive. I suppose that you could also use one to sharpen a dulled flint, once taken out of the jaws.
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I ordered some Mizzy brand wheels for my Dremel. They are the wheels that dentists use to shape crowns. I use them to cut the hump off the top off the flint. One wheel will do about 5 flints before it wears away. Haven't had much luck using them to sharpen the edge. I'm probably letting them get too thick before sharpening.
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My fingers will do about 5 flints before THEY wear away.
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I ordered some Mizzy brand wheels for my Dremel. They are the wheels that dentists use to shape crowns. I use them to cut the hump off the top off the flint. One wheel will do about 5 flints before it wears away. Haven't had much luck using them to sharpen the edge. I'm probably letting them get too thick before sharpening.
Flints need to be knapped or is it napped? - not ground to make them sharp. Napping (knapping?) flints is easy.
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A knapped flint will be sharper than any filed edge flint. A simple way to do it , easily managed is as follows.
get a small piece of 1/4 in round tool steel; just a couple inches long is enough. File a small ledge on one end.
This allows you to strike the opposite end while "walking" the ledge end across the flint edge, chipping small pieces off. You'll end up with a nice sharp flint.
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I was taught to do it like Bob says except using an antler tine instead of a steel rod. I have tried both and also a brass rod. All work, the antler works best for me
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Supposedly you can use pliers to knap a fresh sharp edge. You just nip the edge and the result is a sharp blade.
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I use the bottom of the frizzen, most times. Let the cock down until the bottom of the frizzen is in contact, then push dodwn on the frizzen - Englihs flints are easily knapped this way - not so the river rocks as they are way harder.- bot if only a small round spot is bothering the spark, it can generally be chipped off usng the bottom of the frizzen - sometimes on Rich's flints, always with English flints. Rich's flints spark better for me, though.
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"A knapped flint will be sharper than any filed edge flint."
Sorry Bob. I have some fresh knapped ones and some I reworked today. I don't know if the ones I reworked are as good for shooting as the knapped ones but they are much much sharper. I think part of the dilemma with the diamond "file" is to keep from creating a bevel within the edge. Maybe some photos will help explain that. But I'm telling you the sharpness of the filed flints blows away the sharpness of the knapped ones. As a matter of fact I think the edge is so sharp and fine that it will chip off as it used for shooting.
I have also tried pliers, snippers, pinchers etc and it did not work for me. But it's just sort of a fun sideline. I still think I prefer the old hand knapper flints.
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Under electron microscope a properly knapped flint is shown to be one molecule wide. Way beyond the best edge of a surgeon's scalpel.
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Molly - don't think so. Flint, chert and obsidian all flake to a molecular edge - sharper 'points' than can be accomplished by filing. Not to say your "filed" flints are not sharp. The knapped, but rough/serrated edge of a knapped flint will scrape steel to incandescent heat better than a filed edge simply because of the lower coefficient of friction compared to the longer smooth surface, I think.
I attempted to make some 'emergency' flints from Tungsten Carbide but the best I got was dull red sparks. They were SHARP, felt incredibly sharp, but failed miserably on the frizzen, in comparison to flint or chert.
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OK, my electron microscope is busted so I'll take your word. I guess I am thinking that the consistency (uniformity??) of a filed edge is in total going to be "sharper" than a knapped edge. Cannot believe one can achieve a single molecule thickness over the total width of the edge. Come to think of it most that I see show a depth of thickness in some small lengths along the edge.
But then I see my flints flake and break off in small bits over time so I doubt one really want that kind of edge. Beats me. When the electron microscope gets fixed I'll take a look!
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Well, their is another alternative to the EMS, experience. It requires time and introspection, some people spend a life time in its pursuit and never find it.
Robby
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Just a little factoid... one who sharpens his flints by skinning them back till they are nubs would have been known as a skinflint...too frugal to use a new flint!
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Pliers work fine, while at home sipping a cold one! It does take time to get the hang of it, but who's in a hurry??
A small knapping hammer while hunting works as well.
~Tony