AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: bones92 on July 25, 2015, 03:05:07 PM
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Recently picked this up. Beautiful wood in the buttstock (walnut or black walnut, perhaps) but lacks a buttplate and never appears to have had one.
The lock is, I believe, a DGW... it is virtually identical to the one on the Bill Large rifle I've posted about on this forum.
Note the really strange rear sight, and the odd configuration of the front sight (with two dovetails).
The front sight blade was broken off, but I wonder if I could solder on a new one to the two existing brass bases.
The barrel has no marks on it anywhere, from what I can tell.
I wondered if this was perhaps an old rifle with a replacement lock, but I believe it's contemporary from the 1960's or 70s.
For some reasons, individual photos don't show up... but the album is here: http://imgur.com/a/telOn (http://imgur.com/a/telOn)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FtmbE3Mj.jpg&hash=b9180c68f8175e048c9f15af2acd46adf6404caa)
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Picture links corrected by moderator. The links were lacking ".jpg" at the end of the url. -Ron
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Images work fine, but there is a "special method" of displaying them here.
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You must take the URL from the hosting site, and post it here with image tags around it. There are dozens of threads and a tutorial on the subject. It's "remote hosting". HTH.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWVfHNju.jpg&hash=8338b041ce7b00a662388e495dced2a79f9087cf)
I suspect the front sight was a monster too-and why it didn't survive. That rear is quite "distinctive". :o
Thanks for sharing your gun. I'm no expert, looks fairly generic to me, except for the rabbit ears sight. I don't think it's an old rifle with replaced lock.
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You must take the URL from the hosting site, and post it here with image tags around it.
Hi Wade,
That is usually the problem, but not this time. With photos stored on Imgur there's an extra step to get the full url of the individual photo. The links in the OP just needed ".jpg" added to the end of the url.
-Ron
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Gotcha. I just dig until I get to "view photo" or "copy photo url" and then use that with img tags. I think imgur has "pre-tagged" links as well. What works does work. ;)
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Looks like a 50's or 60's attempt to me.The lock looks like Dixie Gun Works and those triggers I wil wager came from a much higher quality rifle,maybe a WW2 bring back Schuetzen that nobody could figure out.
Let's see the inside of the lock and that will probably tell the tale.
Bob Roller
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Bob, I did a stare-and-compare of photos of the lock in the Bill Large flinter I have, and I'd say it is the exact same lock.
I haven't had a chance to clean the bore, but if it cleans up like I think it might, it should be in fairly decent shape.
She is a hefty rifle, that's for sure. The barrel is at least 1" across and LONG.
The lock seems to throw sparks occasionally, but I think if I clean the face of the frizzen and set the flint back in the jaws a bit, it will do much better. I assume a bit of light rust on the frizzen will yield very poor sparks.
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Rust is a definite deterrent to good sparks and the mechanism probably need a good cleaning as well.
Some of the Dixie locks of that time had a bridle inside the lock but NO small bearing supporting the tumbler.
This will make a drag on the whole device and hinder performance.
Bob Roller
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Bob, I pulled the lock off yesterday, but didn't photograph it. It did have some light rust on the lock mechanism, but because I'm not home, I don't have the time and tools to clean up the lock parts. I did put a bit of 3-in-1 oil on the parts for later cleaning.
I also wiped the frizzen and flint off with a dry cloth, and after a few strikes, it began sparking somewhat, i.e. about 4-5 sparks per strike.
Do you all suggest JB Bore Paste or perhaps Iosso Bore Paste for cleaning light rust from the bore of a rifle like this?
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Bob, I pulled the lock off yesterday, but didn't photograph it. It did have some light rust on the lock mechanism, but because I'm not home, I don't have the time and tools to clean up the lock parts. I did put a bit of 3-in-1 oil on the parts for later cleaning.
I also wiped the frizzen and flint off with a dry cloth, and after a few strikes, it began sparking somewhat, i.e. about 4-5 sparks per strike.
Do you all suggest JB Bore Paste or perhaps Iosso Bore Paste for cleaning light rust from the bore of a rifle like this?
I carry Iosso and JB on www.neconos.com/shop
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The screw holding the cock jaws is not moving, so I put some oil on it to let it soak a few days.
It turns out this is a .45 caliber, not .50, and rifling cleaned up somewhat easily, showing an overall very nice bore but with some small areas of pitting here and there.
Interestingly, there were two ramrod pipes on this at some point, but they seem to have been GLUED to the rod channel. :-\ The rod is cut off square on one end, and the other is shaped and drilled with a hole, likely to hold a patch.
I'll measure the rod and see if I can find a brass combination loading/cleaning jag tip for it.
What to you all think about outfitting it with a brass buttplate? It's kind of an odd shape, but I can probably cut one down and shape it to fit.
And do you all agree the wood is likely Black Walnut?
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I'm no expert, but it seems to spark fairly well. Would this be sufficient to set off the priming powder in an expeditious manner?
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Looks fine to me. If the vent is right it should be about like a caplock
Bob Roller
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Thanks, Bob. The funny thing is that if I watch it spark with the eye, or even with a video shot on the camera, the sparking is much less dramatic. Playing with the timing between both hands, I was able to capture a number of shots with the sparks. The low light makes for a slightly longer exposure, making it easier to capture the sparking.
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I think Bob is right in that this looks like a gun built from modern, and antique parts. I have to ask if the lock has had a fly added to the tumbler? I have owned, and repaired, many of these lock, and none of them have a fly. So either a fly has been added, or the triggers are single phase, that require they be set to cock the piece, or the half cock has been removed from the tumbler.
The front sight with the double dovetails is a North Carolina feature not found in other areas, so maybe the barrel, and possibly other parts came from a rifle built there.
Hungry Horse
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Hungry Horse,
You nailed it - the rear trigger must be engaged (and it's kind of a bear to engage) before it will go to either half or full cock.
The rifle was in the estate of an older gentleman in eastern North Carolina, so your observations corroborate what little facts I do know about it.
I will remove the lock and take some photos.
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Hungry Horse,
You nailed it - the rear trigger must be engaged (and it's kind of a bear to engage) before it will go to either half or full cock.
The rifle was in the estate of an older gentleman in eastern North Carolina, so your observations corroborate what little facts I do know about it.
I will remove the lock and take some photos.
Be careful with that over powered set trigger. If it slips at half cock it may wreck the lock.
Bob Roller
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Bob, can you elaborate? And is there anything I can do to adjust the set trigger? I haven't played with the adjustment screw yet, as I assume that just sets release point for the front trigger.
Besides requiring a fairly good amount of pressure to pull it back, the set trigger doesn't always lock. I assumed it is because it needs a good cleaning, or perhaps adjusting. I haven't had a chance to remove the trigger assembly yet.
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Any recommendations on repairing the front sight? I was thinking about soldering on a blade, but I'm not sure how strong it will be.
Also, I was considering nipping the ends of the rabbit-ear rear sight. I'd be worried about snagging low-flying birds... ;)
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While examining the barrel out of the stock last night, I noticed that the underside is marked Numrich Arms, W Hurley NY. I believe this would date the rifle to the 1960's or 70's, most likely.
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Thanks to a fellow forum member, I was able to address the erratic trigger-setting issue.
I would like to solicit some opinions on the sights...
First, the front sight. Given the odd nature of the dual dovetail bases, it may be a bit of a challenge. I prefer a thin, crisp front sight blade. I thought about drilling a hole into one of the bases and inserting a nail hammered flat at one end to form a blade. I don't know how resilient that might be, though.
For the rear sight, originally I planned to replace it entirely. But I'm debating just cutting the rabbit-ears down a bit, instead.
Any suggestions?
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Bones,
Send an e-mail to me at Buck100-10X@nc.rr.com and I can line you up with a longrifle maker and gunsmith in the Raleigh area, if that's where you are located near.
Buck Buchanan
Field Rep-NC
NMLRA
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I believe that unless you have eyes like a seven year old, that rear sight will be worthless, because it is way too close to the shooters eye. In my opinion this gun is a collection of early, modern, marginal quality parts, that isn't worth wasting your time on. If you get everything working to its optimum, the gun will no doubt produce marginal accuracy, and questionable reliability. Life is just too short to waste time on these early replicas. I recently viewed a collection of such guns and told the new owner just what I'm telling you. This guy had just bought a hundred gun "collection" of these guns, and frankly I didn't see one I wanted to take home.
Hungry Horse
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Horse, I don't see how one can tell whether it will be a marginal shooter or not based on what info I have provided.
I agree that the rear sight is probably not conducive to a good sight picture, but I actually prefer the rear sight to be a bit closer to my eye.
I'll get it sorted out, and when I can put some powder and ball through it I'll post photos of the results.
Given the somewhat heavy barrel with good rifling, I think there's a possibility that it will shoot halfway decently.
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Bones: you have asked for opinions on various aspects of the rifle. When you get answers that don't fit with what you want to hear, or that you don't like, I see you are offended. Rather than argue, listen to what is said. You will do with the rifle what you want anyway, and by all means, find out for yourself. I wish you joy of it.
But this rifle has issues. If that bore is not absolutely polished and rust free, it is unlikely to be particularly accurate, will be difficult to load and clean. Rust is cancer. If not completely cut away, ... I hope you get the picture. It needs to be lead lapped-likely an eight hour job...about the cost of a new one. To repair the front sight, measure accurately the distance between the dovetails, make a blade that spans the bases, remove them support them in a jig at their correct spacing, and silver solder your new blade to the bases. A flattened nail set in a hole in one of them isn't even up to the quality of this rifle.
Remove and keep that interesting rear sight, and replace it with one that suits you. That rear sight may have been made that high to get the shooter's cheek high enough off that exaggerated comb to actually shoot it without breaking his face.
To discuss the butt plate, I for one require more images of the butt stock, or at least some measurements: height, thickness, pitch angle, etc. Photos are best next to having it in hand.
Without insulting you, the rifle is not of much value. It would not hurt it to tinker with various areas to make it suit you better, and might be an enjoyable past time. So again, listen to input you requested, and enjoy it for what it is.
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I don't mean to come across as defensive. I have little invested in this piece (literally, I think I paid about $100).
I know it's somewhat of a train-wreck, but I would like to learn a bit about how to work on these. I don't have anyone to learn from directly, so I am learning what I can glean online.
I really just wanted input on the best way to solve the issue of the sights. I think it's probably best to just order replacements and fit them.
As for the buttstock, I am fine leaving it as-is. I suspect it would be a lot of work to outfit a buttplate, and as you say, it's not worth that much effort. (I must admit, though, it feels comfortable enough when shouldered.)
If it ends up shooting decently, I may make it my default chunk-gun. If not, it's no big deal. Starting off with some ugly, hopeless rifles will help me appreciate the nicer stuff down the line. :)
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Starting off with some ugly, hopeless rifles will help me appreciate the nicer stuff down the line.
Well, you are certainly correct about that one. and this learning process can be lots of fun, so have at it! I'd start by really cleaning that bore, probably with Scotch Brite and oil on a .40 cal jag...a .45 will be too tight. Make a blade for that neat front sight, and maybe install a rear one that makes more sense for target shooting. Hack saw, and file - will teach you more than M/C or Visa.
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Bones 92
2nd request. Send me an e-mail.
Buck Buchanan
Fayetteville Arms Room
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Buck, sending email now.
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Those barrels generally had the breech end off center, We always tried to put the breechplug so the thin part of the barrel was on the bottom. This lead to a rear sight higher than the front sight. That is likely what you have, only it is more exaggerated than I have seen.
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I dropped the rifle off with a local guy who has built a number of flintlocks and has the tools to fit new sights. Once I'm back home and can pick it up, I'll give it a try at the range.
He's fitting a front sight that I will probably want to thin some. What is a good way shave down the width of the blade in an even manner? I suppose the obvious would be to use a triangle file laid flat against each side and drawn back with straight, even strokes. I find that I get a much more precise (and repeatable) sight picture with a thin, crisp front sight blade.
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The best way to end up with the sight you desire is to have him put it on to start with. Thinning the front blade with a file will only thin the upper portion of the sight. If the sight is two piece, the blade will remain the original thickness where it attaches to the base. The same could be true if it is a one piece sight depending on its design. Either way you will end up with a step in your blade that will be noticeable.
Hungry Horse
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That bore may be a very valuable tool to you. If you are currently wife less it can be used as the perfect test of a woman's potential to partake in a happy home.
Do your research to learn about lapping- Vickery's Advanced Gunsmithing 1940 should do it. Pick a nice blue sky Saturday. Head out to the saw horse at dawn with your potential betrothed.
Share the labor 50/50 (or i'd suggest she do 80% of the pulling- pushing and you do the pouring and lap tuning, but 50/50 should suffice to give you the data you require)
At the end of the day when the sun is just right for shooting take it to the range and shoot it. Does everyone share in the joy/disappointment equally?
Used per above that gun could be the best investment you ever made. Potentially save you 100K+ and some heart ache, which leaves a lot of cake and time to enjoy other rifles.
If the odds are bucked and she is happy to work together on something that you value and she only has a vague understanding of I would strongly suggest that the following sunday is planned very carefully ;D i.e you spend some time in the kitchen and she spends some time being worshiped.
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One other Numeric oddity is that they cured the offset breech threads, and corresponding offset breech plug, and tang, by using a big socket head setscrew for a breech plug. And, milling a tang on the end of the barrel. So, the plug almost always is tight against the rifling, but can be hard to remove, if rusted.
Hungry Horse