AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: alhedrick on August 31, 2015, 11:03:51 PM
-
does anyone know any thing about any of these company's as far as quality of product and customer service?
as I am looking to buy a 48 long land brown bess
Middlesex village trading co.
discriminating general
vetran arms
any help would be greatly appreciated . got my first smoothbore a couple months ago and now I want another
and I want a bess
-
Go to the search spot above and search those names. I remember some some neg. comments in the past. Some about safety issues. Have had two Bess locks brought to me to look at that were from Disc. Gen. They were both junk. I'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will comment. Good luck.
Bob
-
They are dealers that import wall hanger quality firearms from India. If you want a gun to shoot I'd look elsewhere.
-
Hi Al,
I do not own any products from those dealers but I repaired quite a few muskets and musket locks sold by several of them. All of the firearms they sell are made in India and the quality is poor compared with some European commercial repros (Pedersoli) and custom made guns. They are popular with re-enactors, particularly Middlesex Valley, because they sell a wide variety of muskets and other guns at low prices. MVT seems to stand behind their products to some extent. At best, the guns are shootable cartoon versions of the originals, at worst, they are wall hangers that kind of look like the originals if you look from a distance. Stocks often are made of teak with way too much extra wood left on them, inletting ranges from adequate to poor, all the metal is over polished with buffing wheels (every screw hole gets dished out), sometimes locks don't function or spark, and heat treating of lock parts sometimes is not properly done. Don't expect easy replacement of faulty or broken parts. That said, there are many satisfied shooters and re-enactors out there using these guns. There has been heated discussion about barrel safety but it is hard to quantify or actually verify that concern. In short, they are low cost and crudely made vague reproductions of original muskets and the majority seem to be useable shooters. However, do not expect anything that approaches the quality of the originals for which they purport to be copies.
dave
-
I had a good long look at several of those India made Brown Bess's such as the ones you speak of that were for sale at a place I visited in St. Augustine Florida earlier this year - nope! Poor in every way.
Those are just tacky reproductions sold to decorate a wall with. The fact that they arrive at your doorstep without a touch hole should tell you what they think of their product as far as actually shooting one goes. No way in the world would I load powder and a more or less 75 caliber ball in one and shoot it.
Save your money and purchase something you can feel safe with, or buy one and hang it on the wall (up high) and leave it there.
dp
-
Hi Dave,
I am not a fan of India-made guns either but Middlesex Valley Trading Co and Loyalist Arms seem to do a pretty good job obtaining better quality work from India and in preparing them to be used as shooters. I think there is a range of quality out there. I am not sure if MVT and Loyalist drill their own vent holes and also work over the guns before resale. I think at least some are shipped from India without vent holes so they do not have to have the barrels proofed in India. There are hundreds of re-enactors using these guns and firing them. Regardless, I personally would not waste $600-700 on one but then I can build whatever I want.
dave
-
Might want to look at a company called military heritage muzzeloader reproductions. Lot of people that do colonial reinactments like them. There rifles are shown in the Smithsonian. So they are reasonably accurate to history. Not my opinion but of others. They also make guns for some of the major movie productions. Such as Masters an Comanders, pirates of the Carabian and others. They also have a good warranty an return policy.
-
There rifles are shown in the Smithsonian.
You have got to be kidding.,... ::)
-
Military Heritage = Discriminating General. Same thing. If these "guns" are used in movies, they must be authentic, right ? ::) Not hardly. I owned one way back in my beginning reenacting days, [ a Bess ] and it worked sort of OK especially since I didn't know any better. With a lot of rework of the metal and wood, I got it looking and functioning much better. The locks are individually forged , so replacement parts aren't available. Most of the reenactors I knew back then treated their guns as a prop. Blanks only, ..no live fire with ball etc. Cost was the main deciding factor re the guns used . I've moved on from that whole scene .
My question to you would be - what do you expect to do with your musket [ Bess ] ???
If you want to actually use it , i.e. you want a safe properly functioning, dependable firearm, go elsewhere.
A bess was a military firearm. If you just want a large bore gun , a civilian "fowling " gun might be more appropriate. My own Chambers New England fowling gun { 10 bore } is much more shooter friendly , and easier to shoot accurately than any Bess I've seen.
-
Hi Dave,
I am not a fan of India-made guns either but Middlesex Valley Trading Co and Loyalist Arms seem to do a pretty good job obtaining better quality work from India and in preparing them to be used as shooters. I think there is a range of quality out there. I am not sure if MVT and Loyalist drill their own vent holes and also work over the guns before resale. I think at least some are shipped from India without vent holes so they do not have to have the barrels proofed in India. There are hundreds of re-enactors using these guns and firing them. Regardless, I personally would not waste $600-700 on one but then I can build whatever I want.
dave
Thanks Dave. I was going by what I saw and felt at the place in St. Augustine this year. Not my cup'o tea and for sure wall hangers.
dave
-
India's is a member of the international group of countries that have fully compatible and thoroughly modern firearms proofing regulations. But that won't apply to those shipped without touch holes. These are intended solely as display pieces though they may have been manufactured to the same standard (or not). So until properly proofed .........
If a local company is drilling the touch holes and selling as fully functional I would want to understand their proof testing. Does it comply to international standards? Is it so guaranteed and stamped?
Are to value for money? Well you get what you can afford. And to give them their due, what western country could produce anything approaching the Indian guns for that same price? A different culture - there is pride in their work and skill and if you don't work they and their family don't eat.
There is no walnut in India so it must be local wood. The East India Company found there was no local equivalent timber for gun stocks back in the early 19th century.
-
I agree but sometimes people can't afford a custom gun. For what ever reason. So people make suggestion on here to help them. Then they can make a decision based on that. There are a few out there . As for a custom gun. Buyer beware also. Because there are some that build them. But the internals are a nightmare. An yes I was burned! So I have experienced that end too.
-
I agree but sometimes people can't afford a custom gun. For what ever reason. So people make suggestion on here to help them. Then they can make a decision based on that. There are a few out there . As for a custom gun. Buyer beware also. Because there are some that build them. But the internals are a nightmare. An yes I was burned! So I have experienced that end too.
You always get what you pay for. ;)
-
You always get what you pay for. ;)
Not always! Better way to phrase it is "you pay for what you get." Sometimes you get LESS than what you pay for. I've been lucky so far.
-
The primary problem is the incredible cheapness of many ML "shooters" in America. They can buy a Brown Bess of french musket and some other designs made in Italy that is actually intended to be shot, is properly proofed, has a quality barrel and has some resemblance to an original.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/guns-rifles.asp/l_en/partenza_0/idl_2/rifles/rifles.html
But of course this "costs too much" and most reenactors see the gun as a prop they gotta have so they buy the cheapest thing they can find or get away with. Sooner or later someone will be seriously hurt and then the reenactors are going to see serious interference with their "sport" from either the gov't and/or the owners of the property the events are held on. But they figure that the chances are so remote that they let people shoot blanks and maybe real ammo in guns that are little better than pipe bombs.
Dan
-
I don't know if it is because people are so cheap.... I just finished looking at an ad from our local Rural King. They have on sale many firearms, including high power rifles, shotguns, and handguns; many good names like Remington, Winchester, etc. all of them are less than the cost of an India made musket.
When a newbie sees the cost of a Pedersoli musket, compared to these modern guns; I can't blame them for feeling they are overpriced.
-
You always get what you pay for. ;)
Not always! Better way to phrase it is "you pay for what you get." Sometimes you get LESS than what you pay for. I've been lucky so far.
We could debate your luck..... ;)
-
Hanchii you hit the nail on the head.
-
The better of the ones you are talking about run around $700 for a Brown Bess, I have seen a number of Bess's made by Pedersoli go for around $800 on Gunbroker, so why not wait, save your money until you can come up with the extra needed and try bidding on a musket that has a lot more quality to it. I'm not saying that the India made firearms are junk, I've done a lot of reading on several forums regarding these and there are a many folks out there that own and shoot them and have done so for quite some time without any problems safety wise, but most of them did say they had to work on them to get them to function reliably, and several mentioned that in their opinion they were pretty much a "kit" that needed to be reworked from end to end in order to come up with a decent looking gun. I spoke with Dr. White of White Muzzeloading about the one he reworked and sold on one of the auction sites and he said that the basic gun wasn't all that bad, just needed a lot of work to make it shoot reliably.
-
I don't know if it is because people are so cheap.... I just finished looking at an ad from our local Rural King. They have on sale many firearms, including high power rifles, shotguns, and handguns; many good names like Remington, Winchester, etc. all of them are less than the cost of an India made musket.
When a newbie sees the cost of a Pedersoli musket, compared to these modern guns; I can't blame them for feeling they are overpriced.
You apparently don't understand the difference between guns designed for mass production and assembly by sometimes low skill workers and a flintlock. The latter takes a lot more time if its actually traditional. Not the mention the cost reduction high volume gives...
A friend of mine explained that it was possible to make a custom 700 Remington based rifle in maybe a 3-4 days and sell it for the same money as a Winchester Single Shot (all new parts) that took 2 weeks. ALL 18th - c-19th c designs are FAR more labor intensive than any modern design, especially the bolt actions. If I can get the parts in hand I can built a match grade AR upper in a could of hours. Because its just assembling the parts there is no fitting at all....
Sorry about mentioning the modern stuff but there is no way to explain the REASONS 18th-19c C firearms cost more than "moiderns" without mentioning them.
Dan
-
I don't know if it is because people are so cheap.... I just finished looking at an ad from our local Rural King. They have on sale many firearms, including high power rifles, shotguns, and handguns; many good names like Remington, Winchester, etc. all of them are less than the cost of an India made musket.
When a newbie sees the cost of a Pedersoli musket, compared to these modern guns; I can't blame them for feeling they are overpriced.
You apparently don't understand the difference between guns designed for mass production and assembly by sometimes low skill workers and a flintlock. The latter takes a lot more time if its actually traditional. Not the mention the cost reduction high volume gives...
A friend of mine explained that it was possible to make a custom 700 Remington based rifle in maybe a 3-4 days and sell it for the same money as a Winchester Single Shot (all new parts) that took 2 weeks. ALL 18th - c-19th c designs are FAR more labor intensive than any modern design, especially the bolt actions. If I can get the parts in hand I can built a match grade AR upper in a could of hours. Because its just assembling the parts there is no fitting at all....
Sorry about mentioning the modern stuff but there is no way to explain the REASONS 18th-19c C firearms cost more than "moiderns" without mentioning them.
Dan
I do understand the difference between production and handmade. I've made many flintlocks entirely by hand. I've also been involed in making custom and production archery bows for 40 years. Maybe you should re-read my post, and you would see that I said when a NEWBIE sees the price of a modern firearm, they may think a reproduction such as a Pedersoli musket is overpriced.
By the way, a Pedersoli musket IS a production firearm.
-
I don't know if it is because people are so cheap.... I just finished looking at an ad from our local Rural King. They have on sale many firearms, including high power rifles, shotguns, and handguns; many good names like Remington, Winchester, etc. all of them are less than the cost of an India made musket.
When a newbie sees the cost of a Pedersoli musket, compared to these modern guns; I can't blame them for feeling they are overpriced.
You apparently don't understand the difference between guns designed for mass production and assembly by sometimes low skill workers and a flintlock. The latter takes a lot more time if its actually traditional. Not the mention the cost reduction high volume gives...
A friend of mine explained that it was possible to make a custom 700 Remington based rifle in maybe a 3-4 days and sell it for the same money as a Winchester Single Shot (all new parts) that took 2 weeks. ALL 18th - c-19th c designs are FAR more labor intensive than any modern design, especially the bolt actions. If I can get the parts in hand I can built a match grade AR upper in a could of hours. Because its just assembling the parts there is no fitting at all....
Sorry about mentioning the modern stuff but there is no way to explain the REASONS 18th-19c C firearms cost more than "moiderns" without mentioning them.
Dan
I do understand the difference between production and handmade. I've made many flintlocks entirely by hand. I've also been involed in making custom and production archery bows for 40 years. Maybe you should re-read my post, and you would see that I said when a NEWBIE sees the price of a modern firearm, they may think a reproduction such as a Pedersoli musket is overpriced.
By the way, a Pedersoli musket IS a production firearm.
Yeah I might read a little better.
Production?
I used to help make 19th c design firearms. Quite a few. My wife stocked a thousand or more, don't know exactly. The problem was about 30" of inletting that had to be within .001 to look anything like right. Not counting the forend or buttplate.
Don't have that problem with a modern "lathe gun".
Dan
-
Close one eye, what do you see? Do the same with the other. Now count your fingers.
If you like what you saw, and the number of fingers -
Buy the Pedersoli. The Indian gun may end up being much more costly.
Disagreements with styling details on Pedersoli? Restock it. Get more interesting hardware, as in what Reeves Goehring sells.
Get the Pedersoli. They use, or at least say they use, real steel, with low phosphorus and low sulfer.
-
Hello, first want to say to - alhedrick - a long land brown bess has a 46 inch barrel. We here in Germany have the same problem the people liked to spend the money not much they take the india the other take the pedersoli and very few the Rifle Shoppe kit brown bess like me or the one from TOW. For the most the india works when they get a good revision but it is a lot of work to do and then it looks and work a little better. The pedersoli works out of the box but it does not look right. As an example a india cost here in germany about - euro 600,- a pedersoli euro 1200 new, some times you get them used for euro 500-600. The rifle shoppe kit I think $ 1000,- than you made it by your self or find a gun builder and pay for he assembly my one was a finsh one and I pay with shipping and the high tax here in Germany euro 2500,- but it was worth it.
Also all depends on what you need them. For me it is important that it works and looks historically correct.
Monty
-
Just for grins and giggles, TOW sells these low priced, low quality firearms from India. And "yes" the vent hole needs to be drilled. :o ;D
CW
-
Just for grins and giggles, TOW sells these low priced, low quality firearms from India. And "yes" the vent hole needs to be drilled. :o ;D
CW
Is there any reason to activate such a poor quality musket?
The ones I saw some years ago were barely useable as a
floor lamp which is my suggested use for them.
Bob Roller
-
If you read about these muskets elsewhere, they are known to have varying degrees of quality even from the same selllers, but they are not designed as wall hangers as many people like to state. They are simply not drilled so they can legally be shipped just about anywhere. They steel is said to be plenty strong enough to handle appropriate loads just fine, multiple sellers of these muskets will proof test them for you for a fee and many reenactors have used these muskets for years. If they were so dangerous these companies would be out of business due to continual lawsuits. Places like FlintlockRepair.com function test them and fix any issues as well as drill the holes and harden the frizzens.
-
If you read about these muskets elsewhere, they are known to have varying degrees of quality even from the same selllers, but they are not designed as wall hangers as many people like to state. They are simply not drilled so they can legally be shipped just about anywhere. They steel is said to be plenty strong enough to handle appropriate loads just fine, multiple sellers of these muskets will proof test them for you for a fee and many reenactors have used these muskets for years. If they were so dangerous these companies would be out of business due to continual lawsuits. Places like FlintlockRepair.com function test them and fix any issues as well as drill the holes and harden the frizzens.
Reenactors fire blanks, the equivalent to a firecracker load that comes nowhere near the powder and ball load a true charge produces. Your statements leads me to believe you would stake your, a bystander or a loved one's life on one of these " ...known to have varying degrees of quality..." muskets modified to shoot full loads. One, of course, that you bought on the cheap but have paid extra to have proofed and brought up to a marginally useable standard. Money spent that would go a ways toward purchasing a firearm worthy of the name. What else but a wall hanger is a faux muzzleloader sold without a touch hole? And likely sold that way to avoid the lawsuits you mention. And last "...[The] steel is said to be plenty strong enough..." - who then, specifically, said this?
dave
-
Hello dogface you right TOW sells also the India stuff. But I meant the 1746 Willits First Model Long Land Pattern Brown Bess kit and with a good gun builder you have
a nice working and historical accurate musket.
Monty
-
Just seen that musket on TOW, Dogface. Just have to drill the touch hole?? What about proof? Yet are TOW guaranteeing these as safe to shoot? They do seem to be. That would be illegal in the UK where it is against the law to sell or transfer any firearm intended to be, or suggested may be, shot without a valid Proof. And for very good reason.
Aren't those Middlesex Village guns sold with touch holes proofed locally before shipment? May be adrift here.
-
As to the statement you get what you pay for. Three grand you should get a quaility firearm. In my case not quite. Look good on the outside. Real mess on the inside. Should have taken her apart before I took her home. Big learning curve. But lesson well learned.
-
I do not own one nor have I fired one, but I have seen a couple. The main reason I don't own one is I took the advice of the more experienced people on this forum, and I obviously have a great deal of respect for the talents of many of this forum's members. I just think that the denunciation of these things often goes to far. I simply wanted to point out that these dealers will proof test the guns, and they are not made to be wall hangers or only fired with blanks as many people have suggested. Recommended load information is included by the dealers. The varying degrees of quality I mentioned are mostly reported in terms of how good the bores are and whether the locks run well out of the box. Some of the dealers inspect this, the frizzen, breech plug, etc. before they ship each gun.
Here is a description from FlintlockRepair.com concerning the barrel strength:
"The steel in the barrels are typically SAE 1026 high pressure DOM (drawn over mandril) grade which is typical of smooth bore. Metallurgy of India musket barrels comply with modern and original requirements and have been shown to have a tinsel strength of approximately 85,000 psi."
-
Hi Hammer,
Yes, Middlesex Valley Traders and Loyalist Arms (Canada) do advertise that they proof the barrels and tune up the locks. In truth, I don't think any of the India-made muskets would pass inspection by the British ordnance inspectors during the 18th century. The barrels might prove safe but the quality of the locks and stocks is not nearly comparable to the quality I observed on original British muskets from the period. Actually, I doubt Pedersoli's Bess would pass either. Locks and other hardware are inlet too deep and the quality of the stock wood and shaping is not comparable to the originals that I have handled and inspected closely.
dave
-
Gentlemen... Please don't mistake my previous post for a letter of endorsement for these pieces of C@$&. Far from it. I was merely showing that these things could be found just about anywhere. Would I buy one? H#** No. Would I shoot one? Absolutely not. I wouldn't even be on the line next to one, or next to that or next to that.
CW