AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: utseabee on September 29, 2015, 02:02:06 AM
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I've been spending more time shooting my smoothbores this year than anything else. For My 62 cal 50 yards is about it, but my 58 might be a different story. My 58 is shooting about 2 -2 1/2" at 50 yards of the bench and does good off hand if I do my part. It is a Lehigh styled gun with a 44" rice swamped 58 caliber
smooth swamped barrel. I've tried several different ball and patch combo's using .562 and .570 balls. This one loves a .570 ball and a .010 patch. Going to try 60 and maybe 75 yards with it next time out. What has your experience been at ranges of longer than 50 yards? What's your longest shot with a smoothbore? I think I am going to leave the flint rifles at home and go smooth for hunting this year.
Thanks
John
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I can hit the gongs pretty well out around 80 yards with my smoothbore. I have not tried it on paper past 25 yards but at 25 yards I can get 2" groups on a good day if you dont count the random flier.... I do not get out for practice more than a few times a year. I think with regular practice I could do much better. My smoothbore certainly has the capability to do much better with a better shooter holding it.
My load is 70 grains of FF .595 ball wrapped in a .015 patch. I too seem to be moving away from my rifles and shooting more and more with the smoothbore.
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My longest shot with a smoothbore was about 150 yards.
I never hit anything but I tried. ;D
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I'd love to say this shot was perfectly planned, and beautifully executed, but that would be a lie. I was at a rendezvous, with a bunch of friends. We took off on the trail walk, and found out the first shot was a long gong of about 18" at two hundred yards. I poured the charge for my trade gun, and to my horror, found that I had been experimenting with some 3FA blasting powder in my trade gun, and had forgot to replace the powder in my horn, before heading off to rendezvous. I shot my regular charge of 65 grains, and got a hoot from my buddies as the ball fell short by a bunch, and bounced past the target. I asked for another shot, just to see if I could come up with a more usable charge. I put two 65 grain measures into the trade gun and fired. I rung the gong with a center hit. Of course they wouldn't let me score it.
It started to rain a couple of targets later, and everybody in our group switched over to my powder (which was heavily graphited, and we shot the entire course without failures) so I would say 200 yards for my longest shot with a smoothie, but don't ask me to duplicate it.
Hungry Horse
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I was shooting my 24 ga flint smoothy as backup shooter at our trap range, which is on top of a hill. They let a straightway high flyer go and both guys shooting their percussion doubles missed it. I took the final shot at 70 yards and literally dusted the clay. Surprised the heck out of me.
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I've shot lots of targets at 50 yards. But the longest hunting shot was a deer at just over 20 yards. What makes it memorable is the fact that it was a running shot.
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Thank you for the replies. Where I hunt 50 yards will be a long shot with most being 35-40 yards. I was just curious what could be done with one of these. I am going to spend some more time shooting at some longer ranges, but I will still limit any shots at game to 50 yards or less. I still get 1 to 2 fliers if I shoot a 10 shot string. Just when I think I am doing good, I get that flier that brings me back to reality. They sure are fun though!
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100 yard gong at the range. 50 yards [measured ] at a deer two years ago. Perfect broadside shot.
Both taken with my N.E fowling gun. 120 gr FFg and a .735 ball
Black bear..same gun, 140 gr FFg at 30 yards
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A .62 RB with a well placed shot at 50yds or less is devastating to a deer from my experience.
~Tony
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I shot at a ground hog this summer.
I paced it off at three hundred fifty two long steps, I missed the ground hog by a mile, but I did stretch the barrel 4" :o ;D
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My 12 guage fowler put a .69 ball 6 inches low and dead on for windage at a hundred yards one day in my hands. My shooting partner was devastated.
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The longest hit was on a 150 yard plate about 2' square. The longest attempt was at a plate about 4' square at some 250yards. The first ball hit about 30' to the right, proper elevation. The next shot hit about 15' short of the gong, but right on for windage. Hitting at long range with a smoothbore, is purely accidental, but sometime accidents happen. Please limit hunting shots at big game to the range you can consistently keep ALL the balls on a 9" pie plate, rifle or smoothbore - THAT is your effective range and also the range of your firearm.
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First shot of the day with a Thompson Center New Englander 12 gauge. 90 grains of 2 f Goex, wool wad .715 ball with a wool wad over top. Took careful aim at the standard 100 yard rifle target with the New Englanders bead right dead on the bull's-eye and hit a 10x at 100 yards. Everyone at the range was impressed so I tried it again. I hit the edge of the black in the 7 ring. I said "wow smoothbores are more accurate than those guys on the forums said". Then I tried a third, fourth, fifth shot. Never even put them on paper. Never could duplicate it again. Finally settled on being able to keep them on the same target at 50 yards in 6 inch group on a good day.
Bob
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Smoothbores, some, seem capable of amazing accuracy. The fellows using them at Rendezvous BC show this every year, sometimes with scores as good as or even beating the rifles on the same course of fire. Those shooters are few and far between, however, out of the dozen's who shoot nothing but smoothbores, only a few shine.
The best I saw consistently made 3", 5 shot groups off the bags at 50 yards, deliberate fire. Mine will not do that, no matter how hard I try. It simply will not, however I have made hits oft times at the 100 to 109yard targets on our trail- even hit the bunny in the hole, a 100yard shot at a rabbit sized and shaped plate. Does that mean my 20 bore is a 100yard moose or deer gun - not by a long shot. At most, it is a 40 to 50yard moose or 35-40yard deer gun.
Hit a few, miss a few and so it goes. If on real game, I'd be inclined to say 80yards is about max for a really "accurate" shooting smoothbore shot by one of the lads who shoots nothing else but THAT smoothbore.
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I am going to shoot mine at longer ranges just for my own curiosity but will still limit my hunting ranges as I said earlier. With a little more practice, I may try a woods walk with it. My .58 out shoots my .62 by a good margin. I think I am going to build or have built( undecided which way to go yet) in a .52 or .54. I will be using the .58 for deer and bear this year in Pa.
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A .62 RB with a well placed shot at 50yds or less is devastating to a deer from my experience.
~Tony
You said a mouthful, Tony! That aforementioned deer fell in her tracks as if a piano had dropped out of the sky and landed on top of her. I called it "the hammer of Thor".
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My only experience with a smoothbore. The Sunday after deer hunting we held a friendly shooting challenge. We used 12 oz. beer cans as targets. We all had rifles except one. We started at 25 paces and when someone hit his beer can they would have to move back 5 paces. All the guys with the rifles were out to 75 paces before the guy with the smoothbore finally hit it. The next year he took is rifle.
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Smoothbores are weird, unique and temperamental firearms. Especially when it comes to shooting round balls. I can and have been able to get any of the rifles I've had , shooting well with a standard ball /patch combo . My smoothbores simply don't work that way. I've never had much luck with the often suggested tightly patched ball. Actually, I have now switched from a .735 ball to a .715 and from a .610 to a .600 in my smoothbores and accuracy is much improved. My best accuracy ...and I mean 1 and 1/2 in 4 shot group at 40 yds [ my back yard range ] is with my paper cartridges. My guns love them. They load easily and I can shoot 8 to 10 without wiping before fouling becomes an issue, and then I simply load a wet patched ball [ not tight ] and shoot.....then I'm good for more cartridges. The cartridges are all I use for hunting now. Even in my rifles.
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Bob, what kind of paper do you use for those cartridges and where do you get it?
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A month ago I shot paper at 25 yards with my Chambers PA fowler. I happened to have two thicknesses of patch in my bag. One was too thin (I thought) at .010 or .012. The other was thick ticking I am guessing thicker than .018 but not sure. I was shooting .595 ball. The thicker patch combo was very hard to ram down. The thin patch was too easy to ram down I felt. Out of my 10 shots I had 6 shots centered in about a 2" group. I had 3 shots that were lower and strung east to west just under the center. and one that was a flier that hit about 4 inches right of my center group. All stayed on the letter size paper.
I am pretty sure that the thin patched shots were what I had most if not all of my 6 shot group with. I specifically remember the lower shots being the thicker patches. The far right flier was a flinch that I also remember.
I have always been a advocate of tight patching but this session gave me pause as it made no sense. Maybe it was coincidence... dunno. Gotta get out and try it again.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Ffrencart.jpg&hash=13ee7a15f30a2499d75bb3a7a31380d91eb17b8b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/frencart.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FBuckBallDIAgram.jpg&hash=81358012e785930e2f671a23e830e0c070abdb66) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/BuckBallDIAgram.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fengcart.jpg&hash=524ca70e959372a77c903e7b424000aaf6049f87) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/engcart.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fctg.jpg&hash=67f06479efd6481db5918748248a5f025fce1b27) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/ctg.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FBuckandBallctg.jpg&hash=9457da818d7d990bc0146c3ad5100da066aa9343) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/BuckandBallctg.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP3062077.jpg&hash=e8ac2982359af57d75e0ea8ca090412f9b5a2e72) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/P3062077.jpg.html)
The gun that shot this target- with a quite tight patch. Particulars on the target, range 28yards.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F20%2520bore%2520Hunkeler%2FAHunkeler20bore010_zps3e135d41.jpg&hash=0f596a44bce49d8088e4f7bf6b04ee033fe893c5) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore010_zps3e135d41.jpg.html)
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I just use computer/copier paper. Works fine. Look up some of Daryl's posts re cartridges.
I do the same thing. My cartridges are tapered so that I can insert them into the muzzle after tearing of the end...the powder drains into the barrel while I'm drawing my ramrod. Then I just ram the whole thing down the bore. Easy and fast. I dip the ends containing the ball in a mix of bear oil and beeswax.Mix ratio depends on the temp/ time of year, but I like it relatively soft.
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Thanks Bob and Daryl for the info on the cartridges. I will be trying them out in my bear buster next spring maybe.
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Daryl, timely with the paper cartridges, am making some up for a mates Brown Bess. I once shot a rabbit at about 35 yards with a Pat 42 smoothbore British cap lock musket, using a patched round ball, about .69 cal. I was about 14 at the time. I remember being quite surprised at how accurate a smooth bore could be.
Cheers
Gordon
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I forgot to mention about the " grain" of the paper :o Make sure it's running the right way so you can easily tear the end of the cartridge. Otherwise, it could be a toothsome frustration :)
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Like Bob- I used the tapered ctgs. as after the small end is torn off, it can easily be stuffed into the bore and sit there until you get the rod out. The powder will drain down into the breech by the time you are ready to ram it home. The paper becomes wadded up between the powder and the ball. From my shooting and total lack of the paper catching fire nor smoldering, I must assume that it actually sealed the bore behind the slightly undersized load. The ball seems to be ejected out of the paper at the muzzle.
I made paper ctgs. for my 14 bore rifle, with the paper wrapped to give a very snug fit in the rifling. The rifling actually impressed into the paper hard, but a short starter was not needed - just faster. I obtained the same accuracy with paper ctgs. in my 14 bore, as I did with normal patched round balls. The only detractor, if there was such a thing, was every 10 shots of paper ctgs. I'd load 82gr. (3drams) of 2F and and normal patched ball. That was my cleaning load and would clean the bore so I could shoot another 10 paper ctgs. with identical accuracy.
My 14 bore ctgs. were loaded with 165gr. 2f and a .684 ball. 2 wraps (per side) of 3 thou paper, ie: 4x.003" = .012" and was a snug fit (.684" + .012" = .696") in the .690" bore with 12 thou rifling. That .003" purchase (per side) on the rifling was all that was necessary for spinning the ball in the rifling, using either pure lead or WW alloy, it can sometimes be found in one piece.
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So Daryl and Bob, are you using a regular patched ball for the first shot when you go hunting or do you use the ctgs. right from the get-go?
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Last couple times I moose hunted with the .69, I loaded the first shot with cloth-patched round ball with Track's Mink Oil for patch lube. I needed a second shot on the first moose and had that one into the moose in less than 10 seconds (been timed a few times to get it down) using a paper ctg. He had time to merely turn around and give me his other side. That was it.
In training I was able to make the 2nd aimed shot in 8 seconds, using the noted tapered paper ctg. I kept my priming wheel (capper) filled so there were no blank spots. Capping was simple and fast.
The British solder, had to pull the cock to full bent, then rip the end of a ctg. off with his teeth, then prime, then close the 'hammer', then shove the remainder of the paper ctg. with the ball into the muzzle, then pull out 40" of rod, then ram the ball home, and throw the rod on it 3 times. He then raised the gun, pointed it and fired. Usually these loading and firing was on and by command, I think, thus would take longer than someone practicing and doing it on his own at his own pace.
I did not test to see how many I could get off in one hour - that would have been interesting indeed, considering the British Musket shooters were required only 3 per minute. I'm sure that even today, 25 years later, I could still do 4 in a minute - shooting on a plate (deer kill zone size) at 50yards - or 100 on a moose's kill area zone.
Note, to be accurate, ie: as accurate as patched round balls, they have to be snug in the lands with the lands actually impressing into the paper patch.
The Americana Military found out about tighter meaning better accuracy after enlarging the ball's size a mere .010", to .650" from .640". (Firearms of the American West 1805- 1865). The increase of .010" doubled the hits on their test targets at 100 yards out of 10 shots, from one hit in 10 to 2 hits in ten, consistently, so they increased the size that amount - sometime around 1820, I think it was. Considering their muskets ran the gauntlet of size from .69 to 70, they still had considerable 'windage'. Going to a swaged ball increased the hits as well, as it removed the sprue which can cause spinning & curve balls by the air the ball is passing through.
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I was hunting bears today. Just got back in. I had my 20 bore with me this day, and it was loaded with a cartridge.
If I am using my rifle, I'll load first with a patched ball, and any follow up shots are done using the cartridges.
As mentioned, if carrying a smoothbore, I'll just load the cartridge right off. Daryl was mentioning about the rate of fire.
Just for interest...We have done timed [ 2 minute ] rapid fire events. 25 yards..count the number of hits in the 6 in black circle. Most I've done is 12, although 10 is very doable with practice . The barrel gets very hot!
The smoothbores rule at this competition. No one shooting a rifle has ever won.
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The longest hit was on a 150 yard plate about 2' square. The longest attempt was at a plate about 4' square at some 250yards. The first ball hit about 30' to the right, proper elevation. The next shot hit about 15' short of the gong, but right on for windage. Hitting at long range with a smoothbore, is purely accidental, but sometime accidents happen. Please limit hunting shots at big game to the range you can consistently keep ALL the balls on a 9" pie plate, rifle or smoothbore - THAT is your effective range and also the range of your firearm.
As an addition to this very good advice, is that shooting in the field is never like shooting on the range. There is MECHANICAL accuracy that the firearm is capable of and that of the shooter-firearm combination in a given situation. So its best if the hunter spend some time shooting in field conditions on PAPER targets to get an accurate idea of what the capabilities are. The problem with smoothbore with no hindsights is that in field conditions the shooters head may not be ideally indexed on the stock. Shooting uphill, downhill side hill. Sitting or standing. Does shooting prone change the impact point/accuracy? This applies to all firearms, even "moderns" with sophisticated sights.
Many, probably the majority, of trade guns seen in Museums in Montana have rear sights. Even one cut down into a horse pistol in the US Park Service Museum at Mammoth, WY. If people hunt with a smoothbore shooting solid shot a rear sight is a good idea. On Trade Guns many simply had a chisel drive in the top flat to erupt the sight blade then this is notched. Some are very low. The one I took a photo of in Cody has a very low rear sight and a very tiny front. I realize that the NMLRA rules frown on this but for hunting its important. Proper sight alignment will place the ball where the sights are. Improper sight alignment results in and increasing error as the range increases.
Dan
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If one's aim (pardon the pun) is to shoot as accurately as possible, then a rear sight makes great sense. Everyone can't shoot with rifle accuracy by relying on cheek placement to serve as the rear sight. I WANT to hit my target; and that's the reason I had it built with a rear sight installed. Or if one had rather handicap one's self, for some reason or another, use a pistol.
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I had trouble with consistency and had a rear sight installed. I'm now very comfortable hunting out to 75yds.
It made a huge difference for me. I love hunting with my .62 smooth bore , I plan on taking it next weekend for our early BP season.
~Tony
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I killed my first moose with a Brown Bess musket .75 cal with a .735" soft lead ball and 100 gr. Fg GOEX at 100 paces. Perfect lung hit with ball under the hide on far side. I've never shot at game farther away than that with a smoothbore, but I've made consistent hits on our 14" gong at 109 yards (laser'd) with a Chambers' Penn. fowler in 20 gauge...tight combo again and .609" soft lead ball.
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Thanks for your post, Taylor. I would definitely take a shot at a moose at 100 yds. For deer, my limit is 1/2 that. I very confident with my 10 bore, and plan to use it for moose if at all possible this year.
Lately, I've grown extremely fond of the Chamber's English fowler/Officer's fusil that I built last year.
It is perhaps the best handling gun I own. I highly recommend it, and would sincerely love to see more examples of this build completed by others. It deserves to be more popular.
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I've recently switched to a ladies calibre smoothie. What a pleasure to shoot. It's a .540 bore built around a early Colonial Penn. fowling piece. I shoot a .510 RB with a 30thou. patch. A little tough to start, but with 80 grains of Goex 2f, on gongs(which is what I shoot at most), out to a hundred yards she shoots like a rifle.(if I do my part,hehe) It definitely is a handicap having only a front sight but I like this variable. It adds a little extra fun. Game isn't as plentiful here and shots are generally long for deer and moose due to massive clear cuts so I use those demon suppository guns to hunt with. I hit a 250 yard 4'X4' steel gong on the first try ONCE,lol! Other times needed to "dial" in with a couple of try's. Smoothbores are a lot of fun, rifles are more accurate generally, but who cares.