AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Molly on November 09, 2015, 05:32:57 AM
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I always appreciate owners who are in possession of unique, dare I say RARE works but who are willing and actually enjoy others not only seeing them but taking photos of them for the world to see. Yesterday, I had such an encounter and would like to share some very poor photos of a very extraordinary longrifle. Some folks on the forum should know the maker and may have actually seen this rifle. But I'm guessing that most have not seen it. If you absolutely KNOW, log a response but no mention of the makers name yet please. If you would like to take a guess log your guess as well. I'll let the subject run a few days and post "the rest of the story" this week. What a rifle! Sorry the pictures are so bad but they were taken with a phone cam and through the glare of a class case. There is a mirror behind and below the actual rifle in an attempt to show some detail of the opposite side. Two people who would call themselves experts made the following claims.
1. That the rifle is probably unfired.
2. That it is one of a matched pair.
3. That it may very well be the most expensive antique longrifle on the planet.
Photos in process.
The specific rifle is the lower one just above the horns. Don't confuse yourself in the one photo which shows the patch box with the eagle. The rifle in question is BELOW that one and the effort is to see the opposite side in the mirror. Yeah, I know it will be hard for some with optical rectitus but it was the only way I could get it.
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I visited with it last Christmas at Williamsburg ;) !!
Mitch Yates
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That's what I was wanting to guess,however this gun doesn't have the trigger adjustment on the front
trigger and that made me wonder.
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Interesting...130 views and two comments. I thought it would have generated more. Maybe the rifle is so well know the question is insignificant. Maybe the photos are so poor it's difficult to see. Maybe the experts seek greater challenges. Or maybe????
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Molly
Not sure what you're looking for.I can post a picture of the signature plate if you wish, but you stated you wished the maker be unnamed for a bit.
I do not believe that the rifle is unfired.There is sufficient wear and handling marks to tell me the the rifle was used.Even the barrel keys have been removed enough to wallow out the holes which tells me the rifle was used.
Whether it's the most valuable I do not know ,while certainly one of the finest American made rifles in existence whether it's the most valuable is above my pay grade ;) !!
Mitch Yates
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Even though it is an extremely fine example, it has to have a great provenance to make IT the most
valuable. Anxious to hear the story. I don't ever recall seeing this rifle before.
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tallbear: My intent here is just for a little fun. I presume you and I both know the maker so let's keep that under wraps for a while and see what others think so no, please no photo of the signature at this time. As to unfired and provenance, all I know is what "they" said. But I'll readily agree "they" may be incorrect or just don't really know. Also don't know how long it has been in the hands of the current owners but if it has been many years then there would be a potential connection to the acquisition AND one of the leading "experts" in the field of the long rifle.
Shreckmeister: I look forward to giving the rest of the story. Please stand by...
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Are these rifles in a museum? Where? I do recognize the Salem Vogler style rifle in the photos.
Michael
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Well since a view requires a comment, here are mine.
First of all, "who would call themselves experts" doesn't make them such. It's when others in the field regard them as experts that validates expertise. No offense meant to whomever these two folks are. They may be the foremost authorities, my comment is simply on the phrase as indicated.
I'm here to learn and I learn from all sources. Also, experts in any field tend to disagree on some finer points of many things-nearly always.
I don't know much about this school of rifle or any of the revered makers of such. My studies haven't expanded that far beyond general overviews and simple appreciation of technique and workmanship. As such un-learned person, I have no comments on this rifle and the guessing games are no fun.
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The rifle is on display at Williamsburg.It was also the subject of a super in depth article with detailed photographs in Journal of Historical Armsmaking Technology Vol. 5 by Wallace Gusler.
Mitch Yates
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This rifle is in the museum at Col. Williamsburg ande was made by John Sheetz of Staunton Va. Per Vol. 5 JHAT. It is a very fine example of the quality of the Sheetz family of gunsmiths.
I have visited the museum and marveled at this rifle and based a rifle that I built on it. It is my favorite build of all that I have done. I am going to do another build based somewhat on this rifle and a Lauck after the first of the year.
Darrin McDonal and I had the pleasure of building a bench copy of the John Jacob Sheetz "Battle of New Orleans rifle" for the 2013 CLA auction. I don't know if this was the same builder of the museum rifle but there are many similarities between the two rifles. There is another rifle that is very similar to the "Battle of New Orleans rifle" that is signed Matin Sheetz. All of these rifles are quality rifles and they demonstate that the Sheetz family were very talented. ;D
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Is this the one that was found in England a few years ago and bought for the museum?
If so, I saw it about 20 years ago. I was amazed that the inlays were flush with the wood, showing no shrinkage from age. My second guess is that Wallace is the maker.
That should stir up a reaction of some kind
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Well, so much for that!
I don't know of any rifle I have seem (original) that is so impressive. I think tallbear noted in a PM that there was an extensive article on it that maybe hit the forum some time ago and that maybe Wallace Gusler was responsible for the content. I personally question the claims of "unfired" as well but given that it is owned by and acquired by the Col Williamsburg Foundation I would expect they went over it pretty well and maybe Mr. Gusler was a participant to the acquisition process. If not unfired, it has certainly been "lightly" used and exceptionally well cared for. According to one at the museum Saturday, the rifle was made for an Englishman nobleman along with another exactly like it other than a small "crest" as a thumb piece. The claims also were that original documentations exist of the order or purchase between Sheets and the original buyer.
bama: I would love to see a photo of your build noted in your reply if you have one and would post it I would appreciate it. I must confess to having a flash of a thought of trying to get a copy of this one done by someone....but I guess the task might be too difficult for a mere mortal :D
If anyone is in the area it should be on your must see list. They have a good many others but the focus seems to be generally on military style firearms of the revolutionary period. I saw a couple of carbines which were called "Parks Rifles" if I recall correctly. Breech loaders, single shot and the short barrels unscrewed from the breech. One loaded the charge, then screwed that barrel back on. So can someone tell me if they loaded the thing in the breech OR in the barrel? At first I concluded they loaded it in the barrel and then screwed it back together but after thought is they loaded the breech and then screwed the barrel back on.
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Just to add to the discussion here are some pics of the rifle in question.First the signature plate and finally a couple of close ups of the inlays which are certainly not flush !!!
Mitch
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Is this the same John Sheets ( Sheetz) that made his set triggers with a horizontal screw in front of the
front trigger?
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From the display.
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First time I have seen the spelling with one "e".
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J. Sheetz Has always been one of my favorite builders.
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Molly,
It's a great gun, but not THE BEST. Theres too many around to call a single rifle the best.
Just my opinion.
Buck
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Isn't most of John Sheets rifles signed J Sheets? I know I owned one made by his son Henry signed H Sheets. Don't see the horizontal trigger adjustment like found on most of John's rifles. All of the Sheetz from here in Hampshire County signed their rifles with "Sheetz" . When did Williamsburg get this rifle? I was there not to long ago and they did not have it then. The Sheets of Staunton Virginia ( Augusta County) are not related to the Sheetz of Jefferson & Hampshire County WV. Here is a link to Frederick Sheetz. Some similarities, but think it is a John Sheets rifle.( I think both of these dudes worked in the Lauck shop) Maybe made back before John Sheets figured out how he was gonna spell his name. ( took some of em a lil while )
http://hampshirecountylongrifles.blogspot.com/search?q=frederick+sheetz
Here is some of John Sheets court cases.
http://www.lva.virginia.gov/chancery/case_detail.asp?CFN=015-1819-075 " real interesting"
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Here is another good one, where Gunsmith John Sheets borrowed money and used guns for some of the payments.
http://www.lva.virginia.gov/chancery/case_detail.asp?CFN=015-1819-077
Looks like he was getting about 32.00 for his rifles in trade/payment ( 1815). & he was using Sheetz spelling then. A lil hard to read. Once it appears that the lender thought the rifle was worth only 30.00. Maybe someone on here can read better than I can figure it out. ;D
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Avric: If you note the photos posted by tallbear you will see the signature of "J Shetz".
Also, the text posted by Colonial Williamsburg indicates that the rifle was acquired in 1980 and they numbered it "210". That is shown on the 4th line down at the end.
As to being the best (most valuable) those are not my claims but those of two gunmakers as well as another in the foundation. "Best" is going to come down to individual judgment based on many things. Provenance is certainly one and to have original documentation of the order by the original owner and the invoice by the builder to him is pretty good stuff. (But that is NOT displayed with the rifle.) Yet there are no claims about the experience of the rifle. And while it was owned by a "nobleman" apparently he was just your run of the mill English aristocrat.
I understand that one may have missed this display during a visit. It was NOT with the larger display of firearms on the ground floor. I came upon it totally by accident when walking through the furniture section. It was at the top of the stairs up one floor from the firearms display. I think that reflects the Foundations view that it is more representative of "folk art" than a firearm. I think if you read the text displayed you can see that view.
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Great looking rifle. Golden Age rifles are not my thing; I prefer earlier pre-Revolutionary War rifles. As far as unfiired, it certainly has been extensively handled and cleaned and possibly rubbed down with finish. It shows as much wear as my first flintlock I built in 1978.
It might be the most valuable rifle (MVR) on the planet to those who specialize in early Southern Golden Age rifles, but others with a passion for Virginia rifles might favor an early Haymaker Or the Woodsrunner by some simply because of the period. I am not sure that Sheetz rifles are as valued in general as a JP Beck, an Armstrong, a Sell, simply because the work of those makers has been well known and published and sought after for over 70 years. Similarly a rifle like the Griffon Christians Spring rifle has been heralded as the MVR on the planet before and has its adherents, as do the Musicians Rifle (Fessler), RCA #42, favored both by collectors of early Pennsylvania rifles and early Southern rifles, and your top shelf Golden Age Armstrong rifles.
Beauty and collectibility are in the eye of the beholder, and this one sure is pleasing to the eye! I'd love to have that article and some great color photos.
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I'd hate to believe that the most valuable American longrifle would be one made for an Englishman....
I'd like to see this purchase order. Unless it had a very detailed description or rifle number, how could
you tell the order was for this rifle?
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Molly here are a few pictures of the rifle I built based on the Sheetz rifle. I did not try to copy this rifle I just used some of the carving designs and some of the wire inlay designs. The patch box design I used is from the remants of an original box that I have. At the time I built this rifle I thought my box was a virginia box but I now believe that it was made by Peter White when he worked in Maryland. I hope you enjoy the pictures.
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Avric: If you note the photos posted by tallbear you will see the signature of "J Shetz".
Also, the text posted by Colonial Williamsburg indicates that the rifle was acquired in 1980 and they numbered it "210". That is shown on the 4th line down at the end.
As to being the best (most valuable) those are not my claims but those of two gunmakers as well as another in the foundation. "Best" is going to come down to individual judgment based on many things. Provenance is certainly one and to have original documentation of the order by the original owner and the invoice by the builder to him is pretty good stuff. (But that is NOT displayed with the rifle.) Yet there are no claims about the experience of the rifle. And while it was owned by a "nobleman" apparently he was just your run of the mill English aristocrat.
I understand that one may have missed this display during a visit. It was NOT with the larger display of firearms on the ground floor. I came upon it totally by accident when walking through the furniture section. It was at the top of the stairs up one floor from the firearms display. I think that reflects the Foundations view that it is more representative of "folk art" than a firearm. I think if you read the text displayed you can see that view.
Yeah, like I said, must of been before he started to spell it Sheets. In those court documents, he was using Sheetz. In a ad he placed in 1796 Virginia Gazette, he used Shitz. Maybe the print setter was trying to be funny. In the 1800s they were @ least 30 gunsmiths with the last name of Sheetz/s or other various spellings. And about half a dozen first name started with a J.
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I have all three editions of Whisker's books on VA gunmakers. He only shows "John", "Jacob" and "John Jacob". I have not made an effort to establish if that is three different people, two different people or just one maker and while there are many Sheetz I don't think there are a dozen beginning with "J".
bamma:
That is a knock-out spectacular rifle! I like the idea of a patch box patterned after an original but I think I do like the original on the rifle in question best. Also very much like the "wire" waves. A simply beautiful work of art. I also have visited your web site and saw others. Your cup of talent runneth over! Up to another one?
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I think I said about half a dozen. Lets see off the top of my head. Here where I live they was 1.Jacob Sheetz , his son 2. Jacob Dice Sheetz , then over in Jefferson County3 John Jacob Sheetz, down in Augusta County Virginia, 4.John Shetz, Sheets, Shitz & Sheetz. that is @ least 4 ways I have seen his name. Then they was at least one 5.John Sheets gunsmith in Ohio, so that's five & I might have missed one or two. The Henry Sheets gunsmith from Virginia who went to Missouri , had a son John, who no doubt worked for his father and may have built guns can't remember. At the time of his death he was a clerk. He was the John Sheets who Jesse James killed.
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I used to own a signed D (avid) Sheets rifle. He was a NC maker. Dr Whisker did a write-up (Sheets Gunsmiths of Ohio) on that family of Sheets in the Feb 1992 Ohio Longrifle Association. As well as I remember David Sheets moved his father Martin Sheets to Ohio circa 1812.
Dennis
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Maybe the question of which "Shetz" made it can be answered by the nature of the documentation they are said to have. And since there is a sage who has tuned in maybe he can add as to if that documentation is fact or fiction.
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Maybe the question of which "Shetz" made it can be answered by the nature of the documentation they are said to have. And since there is a sage who has tuned in maybe he can add as to if that documentation is fact or fiction.
Was the "sage" thingy meant for me, if so, that is hilarious. ;D. I think in my first reply to your thread I was in agreement that the rifle was made by John Sheets of Staunton, but maybe you missed that. Go back and check I may be wrong, sure as heck would not be the first time. But my other comment's was just giving other insights & conversation. If I was a novice collector ( which Homerifle says I am) , I would sure like to know they are @ least 5 or 6 J Sheets gunsmith, so I might want to do my home work to get the rifle by the maker of my choice.
It is one heck of a rifle and I would think the best condition of any surviving John Sheets rifles. But who knows what the future may turn up.
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Avirc: EVERYONE is a sage when contrast to me....but actually I was more thinking of Dennis at that time. I actually am nothing but a sage wannabe and I readily admit that and it does not embarrass me. Just remember, you too were once young beautiful and ill informed...just like me! And I appreciate every comment. There are real questions to be answered and it's a great rifle for a discussion. It's breath taking to see it. Not totally because of the way it is made but also because of the condition and all the detail. But I will be bold here and disagree with Don Stith. I don't think Wallace Gusler made it!
BTW, when looking at it I did not notice the one screw missing on the rear of the trigger plate. ("Plate"...is that what it's called). But maybe that just stands that it is in the condition "as found" and not tampered with by the Foundation's "experts".
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"EVERYONE is a sage when contrast to me....but actually I was more thinking of Dennis at that time"
Oh, that makes more sense. :)
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Anyone interested in studying this particular rifle should see, " Journal Of Historical Arms Making Technology " by, Wallace Gusler. If you can find one I highly recommend It!
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Anyone interested in studying this particular rifle should see, " Journal Of Historical Arms Making Technology " by, Wallace Gusler. If you can find one I highly recommend It!
"Sorry Vol. 5"
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I wonder if the purchase documents give the location of John Shetz shop. On Clay Smith's website
he says its John Sheetz in Shepardstown,Va, pertaining to the copy he built. Then I have read it was
John Sheets from Staunton, Va. Makes me think we are talking about two different people? Phillip
Sheetz had 3 son's named John- John Phillip b. 1774, John Jacob b. 1785 and John Frederick b. 1790
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I actually wonder if there are really documents as claimed. But then I would think that the Foundation would properly research things given the access they have to experts and talent in the field. A lot of items, most actually, are displayed with little or no indication of anything specific about the history or maker of the item.
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From the JHAT article
John Sheetz appeared in the personal property tax records of Winchester Virginia April 30 1792 working in Simon Laucks gunshop.He disappeared from Simon Laucks tax list in 1796 and appeared in Staunton VA that same year.He continued to work there until he disappeared from the records in the ear;y 1820's.
Mitch
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Thanks Mitch, perhaps John Phillip didn't get along with his father and went to Simon Lauck for his
apprenticeship. He would have been 21 in 1795, finished his apprenticeship and then moved to Staunton.
In Phillip's will he left his gunmakers tools to Martin and no mention of John Philip.
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Thanks Mitch, perhaps John Phillip didn't get along with his father and went to Simon Lauck for his
apprenticeship. He would have been 21 in 1795, finished his apprenticeship and then moved to Staunton.
In Phillip's will he left his gunmakers tools to Martin and no mention of John Philip.
The above is what I was told by an old collector when I first started collecting. But awhile back I was exchanging email with someone on ancestry.com. that was a descendant of John Sheets of Staunton and they said they had DNA tested and they was not of the that line ( not related to Henry or Philip of Jefferson/Berkely County VA/WV). Seems then I looked all of the Sheetz up and they was correct, but been awhile.
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Thanks Avirc, It was just a possibility I had thought about. Also, I really like the HCLR blog. Thanks for
your and homerifles hard work.
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Thanks Avirc, It was just a possibility I had thought about. Also, I really like the HCLR blog. Thanks for
your and homerifles hard work.
Welcome. But back to the Sheets, I need to go back sometime and check that all out again. Just have other interest right now. They are a bunch of Henry Sheets gun-makers as well. One Henry is from Ohio. Then their is the Henry Sheets son of John ( or maybe his brother, heard that to). And the Henry Sheetz brother of Philip. This Henry also had a son named Henry who was a gunsmith. Oh, who is the Henry sheets from Missouri? So whats that 5, & probably more. A collector could get the wrong H Sheets rifle if he does not do his homework. ???
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I used to own a signed D (avid) Sheets rifle. He was a NC maker. Dr Whisker did a write-up (Sheets Gunsmiths of Ohio) on that family of Sheets in the Feb 1992 Ohio Longrifle Association. As well as I remember David Sheets moved his father Martin Sheets to Ohio circa 1812.
Dennis
I seen a gun a few years ago signed in script D Sheets, the gun was a smooth bore musket or fowler.
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I think the one I had was signed in script. I just looked and I don't have a photo of the signature.
Dennis
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Being no expert, I never would have guessed who the maker was. A very well preserved example that great to see (even in pictures). I like the rounded bevel at the top of the butt plate, is that a common feature from Sheetz?
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No expert here either! And about as near as I would have gotten would have been a "Virginia made rifle". As to the butt plate I don't know but I have three Sheets replicas by different makers and all have a similar feature. Similar but not exactly.