AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Fowlerman on December 01, 2015, 06:32:41 AM
-
I have shot both out of my fowler and found the chewed ball is more accurate without a patch
What is your view.
-
I strongly think chewing your balls is a bad idea.
-
Nothing like a good dose of lead in your diet. Try putting the ball on a hard surface and rolling it around under a hoof rasp, that will rough it up. I used to get good results with that method shooting an original Brown Bess years ago.
-
The old days they chewed lead balls I am not dumb enough to do that I use a corse hoof rasp my question was if anyone has a fowler do you use a chewed ball
-
The first gun I made was a smooth rifle. I would take a bunch of balls and dump them into an empty plastic jug and shake the bejeebers out of them for a couple of minutes. They would come out all dimpled like a golf ball. I shot them patched and could hold my own against the rifled guns out to 50 yds or so. They seemed to be more accurate than as-cast balls. The "secret" to accuracy with a smooth bore is velocity, velocity, velocity.
-
L. Akers - my take on it as well. The further down range the ball gets before it takes on a spin and curves "off into space", the better.
I have not tried dimpled balls, but feel the balls from a Tanner mould, without a sprue, are more accurate (or should be more accurate) than balls cast in moulds with sprue cutters. The lack of a sprue should eliminate the opportunity of the wind or the ball's balance setting up a spin. Once spinning - off they go, up, down, or to a side or any combination thereof.
I have observed, through binoculars, balls heading straight at the target, only to spin off in an exponential trajectory, shaped much like a trumpet's horn, missing by up to 3' at only 100yards. The load used by that fellow, was 65gr. 2F in a .62 smoothbore. When Taylor shot his long barreled 20 bore using 80gr. 2F, the balls seemed to have fairly normal trajectory, with none flying off in the trumpet shaped curved flight. This may have been due to the added speed, or merely coincidence, however, Taylor, using 80gr. or me using 85gr. usually have no difficulty beating the more lightly charged gun, even though that gun is shot weekly (yes - EVERY week), while our smoothbores spend most all of their time in the locker, used on the trail only a couple times a year.
-
I've been swearing by dimpled round balls forever ('cause I can't remember when I started). When I finish casting them I put them in a tin coffee can and shake and tumble the bejeevers out of them like Mr. Akers does. Much easier and consistant than using a file, for me.
I use them, with greased patch, that way in ALL my muzzleloaders.
-
I read another article recently but don't recall which mag it was. I get so many I cannot keep up! BUT as I recall the conclusions were... "inconclusive".
A "control" test could not be constructed as it was done or something to that effect. I just watched a vid clip of a guy putting a collar on a 58 cal ball to load in a shot shell case for use in a Snider Enfield. He rolled the ball on a smooth sheet of iron with a leather pad which flattened a ring around the ball. Seems to me you could roll a ball over a rough surface as a brick or cement block (or yes, a wrasp).
-
I am going to try shaking the round balls in a can sounds a lot easier and a lot less time good idea guys
-
They put dimples on golf balls to ensure that they fly straight. Doesn't work for me.
-
A friend of mine got an old paint shaker from the local recycler,it works great for dimpling round balls, and stopped his neighbor from playing rap music at all hours of the night as well. I am working on one made from a broken jigsaw I got from the recycler. I would think you could power one of these units with a saws all pretty easily also.
Hungry Horse
-
Nice ideas guys keep them coming sounds like file days are over
-
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi257.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh217%2Frobin101st%2Fpotpori%25201%2FDSCN1186.jpg&hash=8d2ce6ed0222717920bc4beacc48b3eb2f8b2c87)
This is something I rigged up to create what I call 'random symmetry' on RB's for my smoothbores. An old stainless steel mixing bowl and variable speed motor. Balls come out pretty much alike, making for more consistent shooting.
Robby
-
Robby;
Your contraption seems to be designed to do just the opposite of what we are discussing. Doesn't your tumbler roll the balls smooth and uniform?
Hungry Horse
-
HH, No they are totally and uniformly dimpled.
Robby
-
If I shoot solid shot I shoot a rifle.
Dan
-
Before rifling you still shot round ball that is why this forum is here so we can live hiftory with my fowler I am just as accurate as my rifle only with a chewed ball
-
Does anyone else cringe or flinch at the term chewed balls? Yikes.
Quite often I end up scoring better with my smoothbore than with my rifles at close ranges. If I tried to shoot at longer ranges, I'd certainly benefit from the rifling in my rifles. But saying all that, I would not consider myself a skilled or gifted marksman... just a recreational burner of black powder.
But even with my modern smokeless guns, I seem to be a much better shotgunner than a precision rifleman. My father was the opposite--- he was a fine rifle shooter, and miserable bird shooter.
-
Ken, I have a friend who shoots every Sunday, all year long. He goes through well over 100 rounds every Sunday, yet he often is only luke warm with his rifle.
But load his Tulle(s) with shot and throw a bird - he rarely misses!! He doesn't get time to think about the wing shot, and connects practically every time. But he over-thinks with his rifle, and takes too long to send the ball. For example, he shoulders his rifle and sights down the barrel - then he pulls the cock back to full bent, then aims some more, and then fires, often with a flinch or in the least, shot anticipation - and misses! There is only a very short window when the sights are clear as well as the target, if you are lucky. The longer you delay sending the ball, the worse the picture becomes. Nothing like a confident rifle shot.
-
Ken, I have a friend who shoots every Sunday, all year long. He goes through well over 100 rounds every Sunday, yet he often is only luke warm with his rifle.
But load his Tulle(s) with shot and throw a bird - he rarely misses!! He doesn't get time to think about the wing shot, and connects practically every time. But he over-thinks with his rifle, and takes too long to send the ball. For example, he shoulders his rifle and sights down the barrel - then he pulls the cock back to full bent, then aims some more, and then fires, often with a flinch or in the least, shot anticipation - and misses! There is only a very short window when the sights are clear as well as the target, if you are lucky. The longer you delay sending the ball, the worse the picture becomes. Nothing like a confident rifle shot.
Just wow. Why on Earth would one shoulder a loaded gun without fully cocking it? I'm one who is best with rifle. Even better with short arms, but they are so limited in application. Smoothie, someday maybe.
-
I get your point about taking too much time... I feel like when I shoot my flintlock rifle or my modern handguns and modern rifles, I have trouble with shaking and the sights moving around too much. And then I get anxious and my trigger pull gets wonky and I anticipate the shot, flinch-- terrible...
But when I shoot my smoothbore, I guess there is less to think about and I do not seem to worry about it as much?... I concentrate on the front sight and line it up with the blurry tang bolt. squeeze the trigger really gentle and steady and just let the gun do what it does... And with shot, its just instinctive point, lead and squeeze... no waiting around.
-
I read another article recently but don't recall which mag it was. I get so many I cannot keep up! BUT as I recall the conclusions were... "inconclusive".
Muzzleloader magazine had an article on them recently.
I've had mixed results, .395 balls in my .40 shot better after dimpling but .400s in the same gun were worse. .490s shot better and .495s shot worse out of the same .50.
-
No experience shooting such but to put a period appropriate American slant on it there is an interesting reference to the common use of 'textured' balls being fired from muskets in Poison Arrows
North American Indian Hunting and Warfare by David Jones University of Texas. 2007. Balls were heavily textured and then coated in a slurry of ick.....biological weapon or accuracy panacea ? ::)
My guess is that if there was a marked improvement in un-patchced RB accuracy in smooth bore muskets with such a simple step as marring a ball than there would be no question left about it after 500 years and a billion or so rounds fired. Lot of smart folks been at this for a long time and most had more to gain from accurate fire than we.
That said only way to know if your mold casts a ball that is improved in performance by texturing when fired by you in your smooth bore is to try an build confidence in it by burning up willow and sulphur.
Often a placebo works every bit as well as the drug you think it is.
-
Robby - I just aquired a 40cal smoothbore and was thinking of trying dimpled balls.. Your invention looks to me as the ticket.. Nicely done..
ddoyle - You are correct about the placebo.. As long as you believe.. My recurve always shoots better when I use red nocks on my arrows
Thanks
-
I strongly think chewing your balls is a bad idea.
;D ;D ;D
-
I am to old stiff and fat to reach them. :'(
-
Before rifling you still shot round ball that is why this forum is here so we can live hiftory with my fowler I am just as accurate as my rifle only with a chewed ball
Its a matter of the definition of "accuracy". When I see people stating that their SB is as accurate as their rifle I wonder just how accurate the rifle must be or if the shooter has bothered to find the best load for the rifle. Try shooting a 4" 10 shot string at 60 yards with a SB and see how it works out. (I have seen this done with a Green Mountian "production" barrel BTW).
Its apples and oranges.
With a scope there are RB barrels out there that will, in good weather conditions, shoot under 1" at 100. This is accuracy.
Then there is PRACTICAL accuracy vs target accuracy. If a gun will shoot into a 5" circle at 50 yards it will kill deer reliably. But at 100 its useless. and will throw balls over, under, in front of or in the guts. Not that great for small game so small shot must be used and the charge invariably is more wasteful of lead than a rifle. Why do you think all those small bore rifles were made from 1800 onward? That the SB is far less efficient than the rifle in all respects for any use the but flying birds or shooting several on the ground or water art once has been known for centuries. This was one complaint the traders had with the natives in America using rifles was that they used far less powder and lead and reduced sales volume. This is documented. People in the 18th c knew the rifle was superior. I have read accounts of people being laughed at when getting off a flatboat in Kentucky with a fowler.
I don't care about what people shoot. I like the lines of a nice fowler and they have a purpose. But telling people that the SB is as accurate as a rifle might mislead some of the less experienced people here.
One other thing. Back in the day rifle matches were shot from a rest. Shooting offhand was a poor test of a rifle.
Dan
-
Shooting off hand is still a poor test of a rifle.
-
It appears that good commonsense should dictate that a SB cannot be 'as accurate' as a rifled barrel! There was a reason why American and British forces advanced their ranks up to within almost 'spit ball' distances before letting loose with massed fire!! This scenario also accounted for vast casualties during the War of Northern Aggression as the Rifled Musket had come into being but the warring forces commanding generals still applied tactics utilized during the revolutionary war! I rest my case! ;D ;D
-
Shooting off hand is still a poor test of a rifle.
It's _no_ test of a rifle in my journal. Never was. ;)
-
Not much of a test for a smooth bore, either!
-
Why not as cast roundballs? We strive to have everything as smooth and consistent to the point of weighing balls, exerting the same amount of pressure each time, drop tubes,etc. but for a smoothbore that all changes?
Urban Legend? Just sayin'.
-
If the dimples cover the entire surface of the ball why would it not drift in a random pattern .I saw an article about an experiment with a.22 small bore rifle iin which the muzzle was cut an angle to see the effect on accuracy the bit that interested me was that the projectile was deflected a lot but accuracy was not so not so much my thought perhaps if the muzzle was cut at an angle so that the ball was given positive back spin then accuracy would/ could be in creased if the ball always spun in the same direction that would be one constant thing which could only be good .. Rob
-
I have watched through my binocs, balls being shot from a smoothbore by one of the lads here (Hatchet Jack) on a 92 yard target. I have seen a number of them heading straight at the target, yet seemingly only feet in front of the target - they veer off to one side or the other- quite randomly, to miss the fox target by 2 feet to 3 feet. Hatchet Jack's load was a mere 65gr. 2F, thus he would be lucky to beat the speed of sound.
The visual shows the balls appear to take on a spin and the dramatic veering appears like a curve ball in baseball.
Now - the more powder used, thus generating higher speeds, showed slighlty better accuracy at the longer ranges, perhaps due to the ball getting out there further before taking on that accuracy destroying spin?--
That is a supposition on my part.
Another of the 'lads' here complained about his 20 bore shooting left. Taylor and I tried it, finding it shot quite centred for us. The difference must simply be the way we see or saw the barrel and blade, compared to the owner.
With this fairly long barreled smoothbore 20, I shot a 5-shot, 3" group at 50yards from the bench. It was a nice round group, but I only shot the one group- no more for proof of capability.
I cannot even come close to that with my own 20 bore (never), thus I have relegated my 20, to only shooting multiple little round balls at clay targets. My best at a normal 8"x11" target was 4 hits for 5 shots.
4 hits out of 5 shots on the 8"x11" page was actually better accuracy than the first place shooting in the first and last 50 yard smoothbore chunk match we held at Hefley Creek Rendezvous. The best target of all those shooters, had 5 hits (prone over a chunk) for 10 shots fired- 3 on one target and 2 on the other - supposed to be 5x5.
I think Dan's got a good handle on normal SB accuracy, or inaccuracy as it should more accurately be called. ::)
-
All I can say is several West Coast rifle shooters decided to take up golf, after shooting against the Canadian smoothbore shooters at Frog Holler years ago. Those guys could outshoot a rifle pretty regularly out to a hundred yards. Any rifle shooter that went to Frog, and then said he wasn't intimidated by the smoothbore shooters, was either lying, or he wasn't there.
Hungry Horse
-
No offence but them West coast fellows either had rifles that could hit the broad side of a barn or they couldn't.No way a decent rifle and good shooter gets bested at a hundred yards by a smooth bore.Not saying there's folks out there that can't make good scores at a hundred with smooth bores but find it hard to believe they would beat a decent rifle shooter.
-
I hesitate to say anything, but something must be said to defend "SOME" smoothbore shooters.
There are a few of them come to Rendezvous BC every year, who are about impossible to beat in the smoothbore matches, and who sometimes post scores higher than the highest rifle score - that does not happen very often - but odd times it does. Years ago, in the silhouette match we used to have at Helfey, 2 smooth shooters come to mind & who always compete against each other sometimes posted scores higher than the rifle scores - by one or 2 points. Since neither of them shoot rifles very much at all, generally only smoothbores at EVERY match, familiarity helps them I am sure. But- those guys are hard to beat. Some matches have skinny or very small targets at 60 to 80yadrds and those will sort out the smooth shooters fairly quickly - especially if Taylor is shooting "Voluptuous Virginia", a .50 "C" weight.
I am also sure neither of those smooth shooters would even consider scratch-rifling his smoothbore as I have heard has happened at other shoots.
-
not saying it can't happen but I'm sure it's not very often.If we put the best from both sides up against one another my money's on the rifle.
-
Not sayin' the rifle shooters got beat every time. But, it happened often enough that nobody counted their chickens before the final hatch. Most of these guys from Canada didn't own a rifle. And most of the guys that got beat owned too many rifles. Its the old story that goes, fear the man that only owns one gun. I learned to load a bare ball in my trade gun from these guys. They couldn't hide that part of their loading process, but it took another ten years to learn the rest of the trick.
Hungry Horse
-
Some folks are just better shooters, period. I know that I can depend on my smoothbore to shoot a very very tight group at 25 to 50 yds. Astonishingly tight. Having said that, I wouldn't expect to shoot a 48 to 50 score at 50 yds ...repeatedly. My rifle will do it. As a matter of fact, it has shot many 50's off the log, or the bench.
I started using a smoothbore some years ago, just because I like them. Off hand matches are a complete different ball game, since the person shooting is the main variable IMO. Off hand, my smoothy has been a contender many times :)
-
Of the SB shooters up here, Taylor ranks with the top 2 or 3. All of them use patches, usually denim or linen and one wipes between shots every time.
This man also went to 140gr. of 2F powder for the "Up To 150yard" smoothbore shoot in the rain one day and won that one as well. He then looked me up in my camp and thanked me for the suggestion of upping his charge to gain the added elevation and accuracy for the longest shot in that match - "it works", he said. He was the only one to hit that old oxygen tank. Lucky or skill - ???? For him, that day, it worked.
-
Long range hits by a smooth bore can be mostly a matter of luck; but the more you practice, the luckier you get.
-
During the summer I go to NMLRA , state and other shoots. I have never see anyone shoot a smoothie in the regular matches , just in the smoothbore matches. No one shoots smoothbores in the log shoots, (60 yds.)
Sez something.
.
.
-
O.K. Sorry guys, I forget that in places other than the far west people shoot muzzleloader in rather formal matches where you can have a metric ton of gear at the line, and a spotting scope the size of Mnt. Palimar. The trade gun vs. rifle shooting I was referring to, was on a trail walk, with steel changers as targets, or on survival runs where all shooting was out of the pouch.
And just for the record some of these rifle shooter were more than just pretty good shots.
Hungry Horse
-
O.K. Sorry guys, I forget that in places other than the far west people shoot muzzleloader in rather formal matches where you can have a metric ton of gear at the line, and a spotting scope the size of Mnt. Palimar. The trade gun vs. rifle shooting I was referring to, was on a trail walk, with steel changers as targets, or on survival runs where all shooting was out of the pouch.
And just for the record some of these rifle shooter were more than just pretty good shots.
Hungry Horse
Same here, H.Horse, trail walks and steel target, offhand shoots.
-
Tip Curtis has a 100 yard smoothbore target on the wall of his shop that has all the holes touching in a tight group. I think he shot it at Friendship, very impressive.
Like has been mentioned; some folk are better than others.
-
Eric, with all due respect, [ and this coming from a dedicated smoothbore shooter ] I have many/multiple similar targets which were shot with my .54 rifle. I applaud the target results you speak of, but my comment would be......." let's see you do it again ;D " My rifle will beat my smoothbore any time.