AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: sonny on January 23, 2016, 07:23:11 PM
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I was wondering if anybody was using paper patched round ball loads out of smaller hunting caliber hunting rifles. If so, what kind of accuracy improvement(if any!!), are you getting?.....bore sized balls?.....WONDERING!!!.........T
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I suppose that you might call my paper cartridges a Paper Patched Ball load , since the ball is encased in paper.
I have found my cartridges work extremely well in my larger cal. rifles . The .54 works OK, the .50 is so /so ...anything under .50 is really not that good. Accuracy in my .62 is superb. You will need to play around with your loads, just as with anything else, but I never had luck with this in the smaller bores.
There are many advantages to using a cartridge, but I wonder why you would consider a paper wrapped ball rather than just stick with lubed patches in your small bores?
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Any sort of hunting load in the small calibres develops too much pressure, I assume, for the paper patch to maintain it's integrity as a pressure barrier.
We had a member here some time ago who tested rifles from .73cal to smaller and found his .54 shot reasonably well with paper ctgs, but the .50 did not, with hunting loads.
Light loads, so up to 60gr. might be just fine, but for me, are not really hunting loads, nor target loads, for that matter.
Paper ctgs. shot identically as to accuracy and point of impact with cloth patched round balls in hunting loads in my .69.
DPhar also found this in his 16 bore, as did BruceB in his .75 and woodsy Bob, of course.
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Sounds like a great way to cripple game, and set the woods on fire. What's wrong with a good old round ball wrapped in a piece of greased pocket drill.
Hungry Horse
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The only time I've used any paper with my load was at competition shoots and used it with a pillow ticking patch between the ball and patch. It actually did tighten groups and you didn't have to worry if one should smolder and ignite Range grass as it is easy enough to stomp it out. However, HH makes a good point when one is out hunting in the woods, a different story for sure.
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I've shot hundreds of paper ctgs. - never had one even smolder. My paper ctg. loads are snug and actually need a short starter, or choked up ram rod to 1" length to get started into the rifling. THAT is why they are accurate. A loose combination will not give you the accuracy of a TIGHT cloth patched load.
However - many guys here and there, use such thin patches and weak ball and patched loads, they are indeed a hazzard during fire season.
Tight loads do not catch fire - loose loads allowing gas blowby do - whether you are using paper ctgs. or cloth patches.
The smaller the bore, the higher the pressure and thus the greater the risk of causing the patch, whether cloth or paper to catch fire.
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I will add that the only smoldering patches I've ever seen came from those shooters (not all of the time) that used Crisco/Lard as a patch grease.
I've shot many a .36 and .44 paper cartridge (cigarette paper) revolver loads with no ill effect on natures surroundings, though I know we're talking long gun loads here.
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I suppose the fire danger would depend a lot on what the ambient air temperature is when you're hunting. My neck of the woods is Northern California, and our deer season starts the second Saturday of August. It can, and often is, above a hundred degrees for opening day. Many patch lubes,both commercially produced, and home brewed, are fire bombs in this heat. Crisco, and even some of the commercial lube have way to low of a flash point, for this area. I have found that any hard tallow works pretty well, if a little mink oil is added to it to make it soft enough to use. But, don't add bees wax or you will defeat the entire high flashpoint thing. Nitrated paper cartridges, made from cigarette paper will also hold a spark for quite some time. I haven't used military type paper cartridges for hunting, but in this area I would do a lot of testing before I went into the woods with them.
Hungry Horse
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The loads we used actually engraved on the rifling - never - NEVER had one catch a spark or burn. I've shot hundreds of paper ctgs. in my 14 bore rifle with up to 165gr. 2F. I suspect a loose fitting Military paper ctg. could easily catch fire. A choked up rod, or short starter was necessary to get mine started, which is why they gave such good accuracy, I surmise. If you have flame blowby - you get burning, even with cloth patches as many of you know & have witnessed.
The US military loaded a ball that was up to .050" smaller than the bore size (.640" in their .69 cal. muskets that ran from .685" to .70"), & with a thin paper ctg. They did not seal - obviously and are highly dangerous, fire-wise, in dry locations.
Don't use paper ctgs such as the military issued and especially not combustible (nitrated paper) paper ctgs. as were issued for the cap and ball pistols and Sharps breech loading rifles.
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one of these fine days I'm going to have to learn how to make paper cartridges. I have a chief's grade trade gun being built, and I have thought about making cartridges for it. Internet search, here I come! :o
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPaper%2520Cartridges%2Ffrencart.jpg&hash=4c29e07c0678710b3c18d775f80490636ebe4537) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Paper%20Cartridges/frencart.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPaper%2520Cartridges%2Fengcart.jpg&hash=cd88125be99cb3b72fe66b1ba683efb76abc4c0a) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Paper%20Cartridges/engcart.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPaper%2520Cartridges%2FBuckBallDIAgram.jpg&hash=e58fa410aff9751de3af3e87ea20a2658793ef74) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Paper%20Cartridges/BuckBallDIAgram.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPaper%2520Cartridges%2FBuckandBallctg.jpg&hash=cd8cd9a00e6fe6803f09ed03d4a8613a07831dbc) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Paper%20Cartridges/BuckandBallctg.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPaper%2520Cartridges%2Fctg.jpg&hash=84a75a547b67e6738515d2bc9f0f60339743f8cc) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Paper%20Cartridges/ctg.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPaper%2520Cartridges%2Fctg.%2520pouch%25202_zpsoqeuzre8.jpg&hash=372d8aef75744182438a438a5e11cf1129e1a172) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Paper%20Cartridges/ctg.%20pouch%202_zpsoqeuzre8.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPaper%2520Cartridges%2Fctg.%2520pouch%25201_zps0usjywa8.jpg&hash=0d5504faec695f71f66326b968353e2afa5ceef9) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Paper%20Cartridges/ctg.%20pouch%201_zps0usjywa8.jpg.html)
I use a tapered dowel to make my ctgs for the 14 bore, or like these, for the Brown Bess.
I find the taper easier to use, when tearing off the base, then stuffing into the muzzle. While you pull out the rod, the powder drains down into the breech - then choke up on the rod (or use a short starter) and push the snug (the tighter it is, the more accurate it is and no fires) into the muzzle, then ram it home with the rod.
I use white glue to glue the cartridge seams. I made a whack of tubes, then by the time I'm finished, the glue on the first ones is dry, I pour in the powder charge, drop in a ball, then simply fold and/or glue.
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wonder if 1f would work on smaller bore paper patch to give the shove an not the hard push with higher pressure finer powder loads.?????
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The loads described by Daryl work in my 16 bore rifle, or 15 bore with a 16 bore ball whatever. Identical point of impact to cloth patched loads at 50 yards at least. I have tried a few in my 50 and they seem to work OK.
I only use them if I need a fast followup.
Dan
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I suppose the fire danger would depend a lot on what the ambient air temperature is when you're hunting. My neck of the woods is Northern California, and our deer season starts the second Saturday of August. It can, and often is, above a hundred degrees for opening day. Many patch lubes,both commercially produced, and home brewed, are fire bombs in this heat. Crisco, and even some of the commercial lube have way to low of a flash point, for this area. I have found that any hard tallow works pretty well, if a little mink oil is added to it to make it soft enough to use. But, don't add bees wax or you will defeat the entire high flashpoint thing. Nitrated paper cartridges, made from cigarette paper will also hold a spark for quite some time. I haven't used military type paper cartridges for hunting, but in this area I would do a lot of testing before I went into the woods with them.
Hungry Horse
TOTALLY AGREE -- I also live in CA and on a woods walk that was held at a club members property I was shooting my .36 cal with "the dry patch system" and started three small fires. I was asked to change my lube - went with spit to finish the course ;).