AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: JCurtiss on January 25, 2016, 08:37:29 PM
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Hi everyone.
This is my first post on this sub-site. However, I have several posts in the Gun Building site and have recently completed a 50 caliber flintlock; see "Warts and All" .
So now it's time to shoot it.
Questions, please:
1) Is there a one-stop shop where I can get: real black powder; flints; patches and balls? I assume I will have to order this stuff rather than purchase locally (Houston, Texas).
2) What is the recommended ball diameter and patch thickness for a 50 caliber rifle?
Thank you!
Jason
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Try here, great group and knowledgeable: http://www.logcabinshop.com/
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Most all of us around here (home) use a ball diameter .005" under bore size, ie: .495"- in dead soft lead - we call pure lead, but it is only about 99% pure - plumbers lead it is called.
.010" under bore size (.490") can work well if the patch thickness is 10 ounce denim or thicker if a Rice or Getz barrel with round bottom rifling. You should fill the rifling to the bottom of the grooves PLUS having .002" to .007" compression of the ball by the patch.
Thus, the patch should be .022" to .0250" thickness, compressed. 10 ounce denim I measure at .022" compressed. Some batches ran .0225", ie: 22 1/2 thousandths of an inch thick.
.500" bore + .016" + .016" (rounded rifling depth) = .532"
.495" ball + .022" + .022" (compressed patch thickness) = .539" - which gives .539" - .532" = .007" divided by 2 = .0035" compression in the bottom of the grooves. 3 1/2 thousandths compression.
Using a .490" ball in this case, will allow flame blow-by in the bottom of the grooves, but with lighter loads such as 80gr. or 90 2f, there should be minimal of no fouling buildup, as long as a wet patch is used. If using 3F. I suggest you stay below 75gr.
.490" ball + .022" + .022" patch = .534" - .532" = .002" which is only .001" compression per side in the bottom of the grooves. This load might give adequate accuracy - or not- with heavier hunting or long range loads, there may be gas cutting. It should still shoot fairly cleanly, without much buildup - maybe none, but a thicker patch yet would be more accurate.
Most of us use a ball that is only .005" under bore size, with that 10 ounce denim (.022" patch) in square rifling which is usually .010" to .012" deep, giving up to .010" compression in the bottom of each and every groove.
That combination is ..495" + .022 + .022 = .539"
Groove depth with .012" rifling is: .500 + .012" + .012" = .524"
Thus, .539" - .524" = .015" divided by two = .0075" compression in each and every groove.
Is it any wonder we get no fouling buildup? With a proper crown this is not a difficult load to put down the barrel with a short starter and 3/8" hickory rod - shoot all day without having to wipe and achieve excellent accuracy = right of the bat with little or no load development - shoot 85gr. 2F and you are there, for out to about 75yards, even 100, however a bit more 2f will shoot better at 100 yards and further.
These are the types of combinations my wife and daughter use as well as a friend's daughter and wife - so - no, they are not too tight to load and they use only a short starter and the rifle's hickory rod- no mallets or hammers.
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Hi Daryl,
Thank you for the excellent response!
Jason
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It may help if it was known where your located. There are a lot of great shops in Pa.,Tenn.,Ohio,Minn.Utah,Mo. & on & on so it may help you get a close location! Chubby
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It may help if it was known where your located. There are a lot of great shops in Pa.,Tenn.,Ohio,Minn.Utah,Mo. & on & on so it may help you get a close location! Chubby
I think you missed it in my original post (Houston, Texas)
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Try here, great group and knowledgeable: http://www.logcabinshop.com/
Thank you there dapper.
The Log Cabin Shop appears to be a good source for patches and balls, but they seem to not have powder or flint; perhaps I missed these items on their website?
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For powder, best to order a 25-lb case from www.powderinc.com or some of the others. You'll save about 40-45% compared to buying it in the big chain stores (Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc)
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For everything but powder (patch material, balls, flint, etc) I prefer TOW. (track of the wolf). Been buying from them since around 77 or 78 and find their customer service unbeatable. If you have a question or have a special request like having them hand pick flints for low crowns or something, just pick up the phone.
I love the answer above about ball size and patching. Don't know how you could improve on that!
I generally get my patching material from the local material shop. They have several thicknesses of 100% cotton flannel and ticking, so why use a mail order store? Of course, if you don't have a material store handy, there is Cotton Plus.com and lots of other places for material.
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Try here, great group and knowledgeable: http://www.logcabinshop.com/
Thank you there dapper.
The Log Cabin Shop appears to be a good source for patches and balls, but they seem to not have powder or flint; perhaps I missed these items on their website?
I know they have everything, but I haven't tried ordering powder from them I always get it in person. Try calling them I think you will be happy that you did.
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You didn't mention how long you have been shooting ML's. I would recommend hooking up with a local ML club. I can't imagine buying BP in bulk at this point and I think you will be surprised at the number of ML clubs across the country. It has been my experience the in general members are happy to help.
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You can contact an NMLRA field rep. in the Huston area and inquire about local clubs and supply sources.
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Being retired and trying to survive on a SS check. i can't buy BP by the case anymore. So, I get mine from Graf's and Sons. They'll sell you just 5lbs at a time. Shipping is cheap, but you'll get a hazmat fee every time.
It cost me $120 for 5lbs Goex delivered.
The rest of the stuff I get from 3-4 places online. Some of it even from the local gun shop. (balls)
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I'm the same as you, OldMtnMan. I buy a half case from Powder, Inc and that's about what I pay with them. They are really nice folks down there in Arkansaws. I've ordered online, and by phone and they have really nice customer service which is very important to me.
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You can contact an NMLRA field rep. in the Huston area and inquire about local clubs and supply sources.
Jason,
We, the NMLRA, have a local contact listed in Houston, you might want to connect with him. Here's the info: http://nmlra.org/business-directory/1421/texas-muzzle-loading-rifle-association/
Mole Eyes
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Thank you for the NMLRA contact Mole Eyes.
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In my area bass pro shop carry's powder.
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In my area bass pro shop carry's powder.
How much is it? Knowing BPS the hazmat fee is worked into the price.
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The local Bass Pro Shop here carries real BP for about $28-30 per pound.
I ordered GOEX from Powder, Inc at about $16/lb (case of 25 lbs).
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When I get half a case through Powder, Inc I guess I pay around $120 or just a couple dollars more and that is delivered. Just recently my club started getting powder (all grades) so I can now get it through them for around $15 a pound. At a local gunshop (the only one in the area that has BP) it was $21 a pound year before last which was the last time I got any powder there. I ran out of 4F (and no, I'm not starting the old priming horn/4F v priming with 3F from main horn discussion again hehe :P).
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When I get half a case through Powder, Inc I guess I pay around $120 or just a couple dollars more and that is delivered. Just recently my club started getting powder (all grades) so I can now get it through them for around $15 a pound. At a local gunshop (the only one in the area that has BP) it was $21 a pound year before last which was the last time I got any powder there. I ran out of 4F (and no, I'm not starting the old priming horn/4F v priming with 3F from main horn discussion again hehe :P).
How is it possible to get a half case for $120? That's less than $10lb not counting hazmat and shipping. I used to buy it by the case and got free shipping and hazmat, but they didn't offer that deal for 1/2 case. Even buying by a case it was still $15lb.
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I have bought BP thru Powder, Inc, but their web site is not working properly on my computer.
Have they gone under, or been hacked ???
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Not sure about Powder Inc.their web page has some problems. Maybe call them to see if they are still in business. Try Graf and Sons, Goex was right at 16 per pound and that included shipping and HAZ MAT, I think.
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Buy a bullet mold , go to fabric store and bring micromiter and get some 18-22 thousands thick denim for patches and 100% cotton flannel for cleaning patches. Dont trust the claimed thickness of the commercial patches. Measure the denim compressed. Buy in small batches untill you get the combo that shoots the best.
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Not sure about Powder Inc.their web page has some problems. Maybe call them to see if they are still in business. Try Graf and Sons, Goex was right at 16 per pound and that included shipping and HAZ MAT, I think.
They apply a single $7.95 "Shipping and insurance" fee to each order. That price does NOT include the $30.00 HAZ-MAT fee however. When you get to the "checkout"...it is added to your total.
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I just ordered 3 lbs of 3F from Graf- a hair under $89 including everything (HAZMAT fee, etc.).
So almost $30 per pound. :o
It would have been cheaper per pound if I ordered more (as the $30 HAZMAT fee is per order), but, as they say I'm now on fixed income, and that's all I could afford right now. :'(
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OldMtnMan, my mistake. That approx $120 is delivered for 5 cans, not half a case.
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OldMtnMan, my mistake. That approx $120 is delivered for 5 cans, not half a case.
That is IF Powder Inc is still in business - not much info at all (to include current price, if any) on their webpage.
Many links lead to "File not Found" !!!
I have e-mailed them to try to find out what is going on - will post if I hear back from them.
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Good news - I go this email in reply to my query -
jerry@powderinc.com
To Dewey
Our website will be under construction for a few weeks. We are still here,
you can call or email with any questions.
Thank you!
Naomi Dean
Powder, Inc.
1861 North College Ave
Clarksville, AR 72830
877-833-1799 Toll Free
www.powderinc.com
So there is still another place to get yer powder !!! :)
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My "one stop shop" is Friendship. I go there spring & fall, pick up what I need, and have a good time doing it. I often pick up stuff for friends "back home" also. Powder is very reasonable. Of course I drive there so I don't have to mess with the "hazmat fees." I keep my powder magazine well stocked by buying a few pounds per trip. It's all in the planning. I also buy balls wholesale from Rush Creek Roundball there. I currently have on hand a few hundred for most "standard" calibers and plenty more for the rifles I shoot regularly. In my circle of friends, I'm the go to person if you need something. I guess I'm somewhat of a hoarder.
Hessian