AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: bones92 on February 22, 2016, 06:53:00 PM
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It seems that if one did not swab the bore between shots, that the process of pushing a PRB down the bore would cause a bit of a layer of fouling and soot to form between the powder and PRB by the time loading is complete. I say this based on the amount of black fouling stuck to a patch after swabbing (and the assumption that even more of the fouling was pushed and left at the bottom of the barrel).
Just curious what effect this might have on powder.
Also, I'm thinking of designs for an improved jag that would expand and tighten inside the bore only when it's all the way at the bottom of the barrel. This would enable one to pull all the fouling out of the barrel, instead of pushing most of it to the bottom of the barrel.
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Pushing a patched ball down a dirty barrel does, as you say, push fouling down ahead of it but it is blown out when the shot is fired.
To comment on your improved jag idea, I will say that if your jag/patch combo is correct the jag/patch will go down loosely and not push crud to the breech then as it is withdrawn the patch will wad up behind the jag, tighten in the bore and pull the fouling out.
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I think that the need to "swab" between shots only reflects something wrong with a ball/patch/lube combination. As for fouling being pushed down the barrel.... again that tells me there is something wrong my load combination. If there is excessive fouling left in the bore.... it seems a swab would push it towards the breech just as another load would. But with the proper load combination, which includes proper lube function, most of the fouling is placed forward of the fresh powder charge which is then expelled during the next shot. If that combination(patch/lube/ball) seals the bore on the way out as it's supposed to.
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Everyone here probably knows I am a strong proponent for using a combination that does not REQUIRE wiping between shots & not wiping for an entire day's shooting.
Now, IF I was in a competition that required long periods of time between shots, like a Wyoming Plank shoot, or an Eastern Chunk Match where posting new targets between shots was necessary and there was 10, 15 or more minutes between shots, I-too would wipe and dry the bore before loading fresh.
I would also HAVE to develop a load for the rifle that shot well using this exact process. The rifle used and cleaned in this manner will likely require a different load than when shot as normal 'dirty' and of course, quite likely would need different sighting as the POI would most likely be different than my 'normal' trail load produces.
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What happens when you don't swab between shots?
Nothin.
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What happens when you don't swab between shots?
I get to shoot more.... with the right ball/patch/lube combination.
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Daryl, Mike Brooks and 54Bucks tell it all. A tight prb combo and a liquid lube require NO wiping.
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By liquid lube, you mean one that is wet to the touch? I have been using Lehigh Valley Lube sprayed onto the patches.
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Patches lubed with a liquid lube need to be dripping wet.
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Won't a patch that is "dripping wet" impact the powder charge?
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I usually don't swab till 5-6 shots or sometimes ooner if it gets too hard to seat the ball.
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Won't a patch that is "dripping wet" impact the powder charge?
That's what I'm wondering, too.
Hmmm, unless the lube is drawn from the patch as it goes down the barrel, so that the bore is coated and the patch is not as wet when fully seated, perhaps.
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The 1st point is that we are talking about numerous consecutive shots at the range or such vs a hunting situation. My opinion is that a very wet patched/ball combination is not a problem regarding the powder charge when it's finally seated. It has done it's job cleaning up powder residue and leaving a trace of "lube" in the bore. That's a lot of tight bore surface to cover from the muzzle to the top of the powder charge! In a hunting situation where the lubed-patched ball sets on top of the powder charge for an extended period, I prefer a different lube such as Tracks Mink Oil. In a hunting situation I'm not depending on the lube for cleaning purposes or to avoid dampening the powder charge.
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More overthinkin'.
Great luck on your product (think expansion plug) and you best market them to another group of shooters (than this one).
;)
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I use a sloppy wet (with spit) pillow ticking patch, cut at the muzzle. Last weekend I shot at least 50 rounds at the range. No swabbing between shots, hit where the muzzle was pointed every time, easy cleanup later that evening.
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More overthinkin'.
Great luck on your product (think expansion plug) and you best market them to another group of shooters (than this one).
;)
Granted, my experience is limited, based on my own observations. Perhaps my jags are too big, and should be ground down a bit in size (or better yet, find a jag slightly smaller than advertised bore size). If I can find a jag/patch combination that can go down easy and come up with a tight fit, then that probably would address my concern. I'm not trying to create solutions to problems that don't exist, by no means! :o
Okay, I will try a wetter patch next time out. And if the PRB does push a bit of fouling down with it, that fouling might act as a bit of a buffer between a wet patch and the powder.
Basically, I want to reduce the amount I'm having to swab the bore between shots. I spend a lot of time (and patches) currently.
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Some barrels such as Thomson Center do have more shallow rifling depth than say a Rice. Those shallow "grooved" barrels are much more sensitive to any fouling build-up. Perhaps that's the beast???????
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There are many thoughts on this. This is for line shooting not hunting. I use mostly Rice radius cut groves. My jag for a 36 cal will be 32 cal jag and a bigger cleaning patch. In the mid west we have quite a lot of humidity that can effect the residue from BP. A .350 ball .022 patch, saliva for lube 30 grs. of 3f and I can shoot many shots 15-30 or more depending on the humidity. The idea of wiping between shots is in target shooting, each shot is the same. Some barrels as they get dirty will start shooting higher due to more pressure, due to more resistance. Also remember the more powder charge and coarseness of the powder the more residue you make. The above is what works for me however there is always room for improvement. My 36 and I can give the younger guys a run for there money off the bench. I,m 74 and and too broke down for off hand anymore. There are many challanges in shooting and I think off hand, flint lock is a good try at ones skill.
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Some barrels such as Thomson Center do have more shallow rifling depth than say a Rice. Those shallow "grooved" barrels are much more sensitive to any fouling build-up. Perhaps that's the beast???????
The only fouling buildup, is in the breech 'powder chamber area'. The rest of the bore is wiped when the next shot is loaded. There is no buildup.
We use an oil, like Neetsfoot Oil, or a grease, like Track's Mink Oil for patch lube when hunting. NEVER use a water based lube for hunting and I would include "straight" Ballistol in that NEVER statement as well. Ballistol, being water soluble, will or may absorb moisture from the air- you so not want that in your bore. It may make as good a lube for target shooting, as any other water based lube, but since I have never used it for this, do your own experimenting on that topic. I would NEVER use it or any other water soluble lube for hunting where the gun may be loaded for a day or a month or more.
All of my guns will shoot all day long without EVER needing to be wiped, when using Neetsfoot oil or Mink OIl for a lube.
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I usually don't swab till 5-6 shots or sometimes ooner if it gets too hard to seat the ball.
This 'necessity' to wipe at any time, shows your patch is too thin, or the ball too small. If it gets the least bit "harder to seat the ball", you are building fouling in the bore - our bores remain consistent from the 1st shot to the last of the day and THAT might be the 20th, 30th, 60th, or the 100th shot. That all depends on the day and how long we shoot.
One fellow we shoot with on Sundays, usually starts shooting the trail at 8AM. We normally arrive at 10AM and shoot until 1:30 or so, then all go for lunch at the Bonvoyage Restaurant. So- this man, also known as 'Hatchet Jack', has been shooting for 2 hours on the trail before we even get there and since he's alone for that length of time, he's usually fired off close to or over 50 shots. After we arrive, a normal day would see him firing off another 50 or 60 - like us, he never has to wipe his bore, whether he's shooting his .50 or .58 rifles, or one of his smoothbores. They do not get harder to load as we've taught all the benefits of a good smooth muzzle crown and tight combinations.
Yes - he uses a short starter & his hand for seating the ball into the muzzle - we all do - no mallets, no hammers are used, just the ones the Lord gave us, our hands. HJ also only uses his rifle's or smoothie's ram rod for loading. This man keeps track and a recording of every shot his guns have fired. He is VERY meticulous that way - details are VERY important to him. Only his new .58 Hawken Full stock has fired less than 10,000 shots. He's at 20,000 on some of his guns. He shoots Sunday and Monday - every week - that's a lot and he's dedicated to this sport. Keeps him out of trouble - ;).
A local guy here is kept busy at times, with sometimes lock or spring repairs as well as frizzen re-grinding and/or replacements - they don't last forever, at lest not for much over 10,000 shots each.
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I used to wipe between shots, because the patch material I was using, 7oz denim, was too thin. I noticed that the fired patches had burn holes in them, so I went to a thicker denim. Now I don't wipe between shots, because I followed Daryl's advice about finding the right size ball and patch material. It's no harder to ram the ball without the wipe than with it. And like the knowledgeable one says, lubed patches must be wet, wet, wet, either with spit or the lube of your choice. I'm sold on the process, and now I can fire more frequently, especially on woods walks.
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Your brand of powder could effect fouling also. Some burns much dirtier than others.
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Also the humidity - I see a big difference between what I got in the Black Hills of South Dakota with very low humidity and what I get now in Iowa !!! :o
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I sometimes scratch my head when reading some of these threads.You have folks like Daryl and his brother who between them and their buddies probably threw more lead down fieldthan most here yet some dont listen.When I first started shooting muzzleloaders I too was dissapointed about only getting maybe half dozen shots or so before having to give the barrel a cleaning,ect to keep going.Back in the day it even turned some of us off from really getting into the sport.Things changed when you finally meet folks who put the time in and studied the craft and put the many hours into the sport and learned what works and what does not.Dont take this the wrong way but you have a couple folks here that know their s@#t, maybe you should give whats been working for them a try.
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My daughter and I have been shooting competitively for many years (her 7 years , myself 20yrs plus). She shoots predominately bench I shoot off-hand. We have always wiped between shots and will continue. If you want to do the same down range you need to do the same when you load, to even begin to shoot one hole groups. We wipe with moist cotton patch, black solve is what we use (1oz. to 7oz. water). The jag is flat bottom, this keeps from pushing the fouling down the barrel with every pass up and down the barrel. Jag's with a coned tip push fouling down the barrel. Flat bottom jags take fouling out. Not only does wiping in between every shot keep the barrel consistent it also keeps possible hot embers from contacting a fresh measure of powder for your next shoot. I write this only to add my two cents as to how we approach shooting and loading muzzle loaders. I do have one question, can someone explain to me their dislike of wiping between shots. The down side it adds about 30 to 45 seconds to loading between shots but the up side it greatly increases consistency/ accuracy and at the same time adding some safety. Thanks in advance Steve
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I've got no problem with anyone who chooses to wipe between shots. And once again the discussion has twisted away from the Subject and title into what you mentioned. But then again there are only one or two people here who know it all. They and their disciples are bothered by the stupidity of the rest of us.
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Speaking entirely for myself alone, I learned about 35 years ago, when I was young and knew everything about shooting black powder, that I in fact did not. And here's another one: I have never wiped between shots with a muzzle loading rifle, so I cannot say if my accuracy would or would not improve. So make your own choices, but listen to them all.
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I find good advice wherever I can. I am just starting out in the world of BP shooting, and time doesn't permit the opportunity to get to the range often. Nevertheless, I'm paying attention, and I plan to try some of the advice offered.
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Also the humidity - I see a big difference between what I got in the Black Hills of South Dakota with very low humidity and what I get now in Iowa !!! :o
Humidity and as Mike notes, brand of powder can play a BIG part in how much or what type of fouling is produced.
With the combinations Taylor and I used, we find little or no difference between shooting here where the average ambient humidity is 50% - with extremes when it's raining to 85% to when we're shooting at Rendezvous at Hefley were the humidity is single digit much of the time.
I "think" that both of these changes, powder and humidity make MORE of a difference IF the ball and patch combination is on the edge of not being tight or snug enough.
If anyone wishes to wipe their bores - by all means do it. I've even noted I'd do it myself if in a match were there was a lot of time between shots. I've only tested the accuracy edge a couple times, but I did not bother to work up a load while wiping, but used the same load as I use when not wiping. I do no better accuracy when wiping- each time tested, so I don't do it.
WANTING to wipe their bores?- I really don't care - really, I could not care less - what does bother or interest me, is someone saying they HAVE to wipe due to fouling buildup - This says they would not wipe if they did not HAVE to - and - no you don't HAVE to wipe if you use a tighter combination and appropriate lube - that's all, it's pretty simple, really - and - it is all a learning experience.
If I HAD to wipe between shots because of fouling buildup, I would have quit shooting muzzleloaders long ago.
Wanting to wipe between shots or every few shots is entirely different than HAVING to wipe. One is a choice, the other - well, LOL, as you can see - it's a choice too. ;)
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I confess, I'm a wiper!
Range time (recreational/social) shooting is all I do. I want to enjoy my time there to the fullest so I take my time and do my ritual...slow and methodical, same order same way every time. It's like savoring a fine wine (or maybe a good cold beer). Don't want to see the experience end. If I get more than 8 rounds off an hour I want to slow down. And I even enjoy the cleaning ritual as well.
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Interesting, Molly, that you get about 8 rounds an hour. I say that because I don't wipe and still don't get that many more shots an hour than you do. In my case a couple of things affect my shooting rate. One is that I'm SLOW, really slow. Just born that way, I guess. And I've never liked hurrying! Second is the distraction caused by other shooters, changing targets, etc. I always give my time to those who see me shoot and are curious about real muzzleloaders.
I quit wiping long ago due to getting so many misfires and finding the advantage of a tight prb and liquid lubes. Hunting is different in that I start off with a prb lubed with (usually) Mink Oil or BB. That way if I don't get a shot I can leave the charge in the bore. In those instances - a long time ago - when I used grease only, I always had to wipe every two or three shots. But when I got into the hobby I used spit patch and was aware of the advantage over grease. But a tight prb really does make a difference.
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As one who has a very busy schedule, and who is often in a rush, the slow fire of muzzleloading is the perfect experience for me.
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It might seem contradictory to call BP shooting "peaceful," but I agree that the slow operation of a BP gun is just that. It's a pleasure to do all the various things to effectively shoot BP, and when I go to the local rifle range, those ugly plastic-fantastic guns, with their magazines full of expensive cartridges, just seem silly. At first, those guys seem to be amused when they watch me "fussing" with all the steps in loading and shooting, but before long they want to see and hold my flintlock. It might take me a couple of hours to get in my usual "basic load" of 20 rounds, but that's a couple of hours spent in pure enjoyment.
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It might seem contradictory to call BP shooting "peaceful," but I agree that the slow operation of a BP gun is just that. It's a pleasure to do all the various things to effectively shoot BP, and when I go to the local rifle range, those ugly plastic-fantastic guns, with their magazines full of expensive cartridges, just seem silly... It might take me a couple of hours to get in my usual "basic load" of 20 rounds, but that's a couple of hours spent in pure enjoyment.
Some of our guns can be "expensive", but a pound of powder goes bang way more times (unless you're banging a cannon) than a box of suppositories (probably cheaper these days too, I wouldn't really know as I always assembled my own suppositories :P )
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Guns which shoot brass cartridges are nothing but a passing fad! You just watch and see. I was a pretty dedicated "cowgirl" style shooter. Winchesters, Colts, Springfield, Sharps, Marlin etc etc etc. All 1866 to maybe 1885.
Have little to no use for the lot of them now. I even don't think that much of cap locks to tell the truth. Being on the range with any of my flintlocks and maybe a few selected shooting companions is just short of a spiritual experience. True, a lot of people interfere with my activity but I can even tolerate that. Sometimes I get into letting someone fire my rifles who has never had the experience. I have hooked a few people into getting their own rifles. I think there have even been a few time where I get things sort of set up and along comes a crowd. I stop and do a show and tell and never get to fire the thing! But I never leave frustrated no matter what the extent of the activity has been. Yes, I'm a wiper, slow shooter, hardcore flintlock lover. Not the best shot but always getting better.
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Won't a patch that is "dripping wet" impact the powder charge?
When shooting a wet lubed patch ball load......the tight fit to bore squeezes out the lube.
My patch ball combo leaves a weave imprint on the round ball.
short start your ball patch combo...pull the combo and see if there is a patch weave imprint on
the round ball...I have found that this fit was the most accurate in rifled bores on calibers from 32 to 62 cal.
With this tight fit the bore is wiped while driving the ball down to the powder.
Its that simple...
I believe the wet lube eases the starting of the ball patch
combo to bore only...the tight fit does the swabbing.
when shooting a lose patch ball combo my bores required wiping.
yes I use a short starter not a mallot.
This is my view using my patch ball combos.
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Gee, can I talk about cartridge guns too? ;)
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I started another thread to keep my observations about my Coconut Oil testing from getting into this thread about swabbing. That said, this series of tests is my first experience with not swabbing/ wiping my bore after every shot. One of the first things I noticed was the formation of some kind of buildup in the breech area. In my 10 shot test, it didn't seem to have any effect, but it was definitely there, and in the thousands of rounds I've fired with wiping..it's not there.
My question is whether this buildup is common when shooting without wiping..??
Thanks.
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Don: ylu've tried two new things at the same time...coconut oil, and not wiping. Which causes the crud build-up? I suspect it is the low flash point oil turning into asphalt in the 'chamber'.
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Taylor, or it's some sort of other "fouling". If not wiping to the breech-plug every shot or not wiping at all, there will be fouling buildup somewhat in the 'chamber' area. This is simply normal.
If your rod is marked for your standard load in a clean barrel and that gun is shot "all day" without wiping, say 20 to 100 shots, you will find that the mark on the rod is above the bore when the ball is seated with the same pressure, each and every time. As the shooting progresses, the mark gets higher and higher above the bore. If you MAKE the mark stay at the muzzle's crown no matter what, you will have to be over-compressing the powder to make up for the buildup in the breech - don't do that. Your load, to be accurate, must be loaded exactly the same, each time- remember- consistency.
In the 1800's throwing the rod onto the powder or compressing the charge too hard, was called "crushing or mealing" the powder. This caused different pressures and velocities which caused and causes fliers.
If you wipe the bore down into the breech area, the rod's load mark will remain level with the crown - obviously, as the powder chamber has never changed shot to shot. Without wiping, that 30gr. or 80gr. or even165gr. of powder will leave some buildup in the breech, every shot, which over time (long or short) will reduce the powder chamber's diameter, and thus your stricken charge will take up more room. On targets, I have never been able to prove to myself that this has ANY effect on accuracy as the last group of the day is virtually identical to the first ones.
By the end of the day, it is common to see 1/4" between the mark and the muzzle's crown. This matters not, if the load is seated exactly the same, with the same pressure on the powder, the accuracy will be unchanged.
When cleaning the rifle in the little stainless bucket (I stopped using coffee cans or Folgers plastic can a few weeks ago) the water only turns somewhat grayish as the only fouling that is in or on the gun is not very much at all - what's on the lock, outside of the breech, inside in the powder 'chamber' area and what is left in the bore from the last shot will only turn the water grayish.
Just for the heck of it, I've found if I load 20gr. of powder for my last shot of the day - puuuuut- ------------tunk on the big #1 target plate - 20gr., which barely fills the hollow of the breech plug in the .69's patent breach - most ALL of that accumulated fouling form the day's shooting has now been wiped from that chamber's walls and pushed from the bottom of the grooves back to the plug itself by the patches ball - then fired.
The cleaning water of that day's shooting which had that 20gr. 'cleaning charge' fired, barely changes water colour at all (includes outside barrel breech fouling and lock fouling) as all of the builtup fouling that was in the breach was blown out with the last 20gr. shot that made barely more noise than my .22 cal. PCP air rifle.
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Daryl, very interesting. This thread is teaching me much.
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Yes, this thread is very interesting. I recall reading an article decades ago - can't remember by who - called "Slowpoke Shotgunning". It was, of course, about ML shooting. The point was well made as it almost vies (almost) with puppy dogs as a stress reliever.
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>:(Muzzleloading is peaceful until you cut your thumb on a sharp flint or pound the short starter and the ball doesn't enter the bore and it hurts. Or your rip the palm of your hand on that nice sharp front sight.
Bob
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or- raise the rod before shoving it down to get a bit more momentum to start the tightly patched ball moving, you inadvertently pull the rod up clear of the muzzle then when you ram it down, the rod misses the bore and you remove the skin off 2 knuckles as they hit the top corner flats of the barrel- ouch! More painful if it's cold (freezing) and the skin seems more likely to come off in a large rounded chunk. Eh, Leatherbelly, LOL - happened to me a couple weekends ago - again, but only cut it part way off - healed already.
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There ain't no free lunch. ;D
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Daryl,
How about cutting your fingertip with your patch knife (normally when it is cold) and not notice it until there is blood all over your shooting kit. OUCH.
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Fired this yesterday with no wiping. Just a wet patch of pillow ticking with virgin olive oil. ;D
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1580/24732087894_c2e374f07c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/DFuq5w)canvas (https://flic.kr/p/DFuq5w) by Rick Mulhern (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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Daryl,
How about cutting your fingertip with your patch knife (normally when it is cold) and not notice it until there is blood all over your shooting kit. OUCH.
Spot-on - often - hey! Where's that blood coming from - then you look - OH - @!*%. When you crack open your knuckles on the corner flats for the muzzle- you know right away. LOL
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This posted as a sample. The rifle used is a VERY accurate rifle, .690 calibre (14bore) - if you don't flinch, that is. Happened first target as you can see by the far right hit.
Here's a couple groups with no wiping - shot while testing loads - could have been 30 or 40 shots fired before these, maybe less - doesn't matter. The accuracy does not change.
Note the interesting (to me) & varied load data, including notation on how they shot at 100 meters. All rest shooting at a bench.
This target shot with a .662" WW ball and 2, .017(compressed) denim patches.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F14%2520Bore%2FP1012731_zpsf46bd0fb.jpg&hash=188499183f4786a1314ade187181e95f1735e2ee) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/14%20Bore/P1012731_zpsf46bd0fb.jpg.html)
This target shot with a larger, .675" pure lead ball. The measurement should read 1.785" - .675" = 1.11" .684" is the normal pure lead ball diameter I use in this rifle. The "heavy denim" is 12 ounce, .025" with my mic cranked down and .030" with my new 'Hornady' calipers. (they are nice) There are only 6 hits visible on this target, so the British Columbia Black Powder Federation scorer's would score 4 or 5 misses for 50 or 60/100, if the 4" bull scored 10.
As to the winter windshield washer fluid + pine sol- I usually don't use soap, just tried it that day. Didn't make any difference - or maybe it did? I did not cross-test with anything else so the results, better or worse, are not conclusive of anything- just that most anything works if the basics ie: water, is present.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F14%2520Bore%2FP1012729_zpsb5a30f03.jpg&hash=bd06bae440723b151208fdefdef2eb491a3925ff) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/14%20Bore/P1012729_zpsb5a30f03.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F14%2520Bore%2F14%2520bore%252050%2520yard%2520target%2520ringed_zps1oz8koc7.jpg&hash=b79475fa45f2baec8505706888c105f4e87cf24b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/14%20Bore/14%20bore%2050%20yard%20target%20ringed_zps1oz8koc7.jpg.html)
I made the ball holes undersized as this appears to be closer to a 1.5" group by the size of the circles I used in 'paint'.
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Just for the heck of it, I've found if I load 20gr. of powder for my last shot of the day - puuuuut- ------------tunk on the big #1 target plate - 20gr., which barely fills the hollow of the breech plug in the .69's patent breach - most ALL of that accumulated fouling form the day's shooting has now been wiped from that chamber's walls and pushed from the bottom of the grooves back to the plug itself by the patches ball - then fired.
The cleaning water of that day's shooting which had that 20gr. 'cleaning charge' fired, barely changes water colour at all (includes outside barrel breech fouling and lock fouling) as all of the builtup fouling that was in the breach was blown out with the last 20gr. shot that made barely more noise than my .22 cal. PCP air rifle.
Never heard this before. Out shooting my .36 the other day and tried it with around five grains of powder and a super-sloppy wet patch.
My rifle has never been so easy to clean! I'm sold on this and can't wait to try it on my other rifles.
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It seems that if one did not swab the bore between shots, that the process of pushing a PRB down the bore would cause a bit of a layer of fouling and soot to form between the powder and PRB by the time loading is complete. I say this based on the amount of black fouling stuck to a patch after swabbing (and the assumption that even more of the fouling was pushed and left at the bottom of the barrel).
Just curious what effect this might have on powder.
Also, I'm thinking of designs for an improved jag that would expand and tighten inside the bore only when it's all the way at the bottom of the barrel. This would enable one to pull all the fouling out of the barrel, instead of pushing most of it to the bottom of the barrel.
Wiping? It depends.....
If using an accuracy load. A load with a fairly dry patch like teflon coated material or patches soaked in water soluble oil then dried wiping is required. These and other relatively high friction "dry" lubes require wiping. I use a "heavily damp", fairly large patch, not dripping, on a loose jag. Both sides used then a dry patch both sides. in regards to the expanding jag... The loose jag will let the patch ride over most of the fouling on the way down then bunch up and pull the fouling out when the direction is reversed. If you compete in a string measure rest match and don't wipe then you will likely not be all that competitive.
A lube like Neatfoots oil or tallow or a water based "lube" can be shot without wiping especially if the shooter blows through the barrel between shots (this can be climate dependent) but will still need to be wiped now and then in dry climates4g . Water based patch lubes can work very well since I consider these to be high friction. However, I quit using spit, for example, some (too many) years ago when I found a ring in a 58 caliber barrel where the ball sat in the bore. I have a 36 cal that I shot when I was a kid and it shows no ring. So (?) Anyway I don't use water based lubes and where I live I "blow" if I don't wipe. But these slick lubes usually will not give the necessary precision for over the chunk or other string measure matches. Paper matches shot on scoring ring targets are more forgiving. Hit and miss matches on steel targets even more forgiving and generally require less accuracy.
This is why I use one load for accuracy and another for hunting IF shooting matches that allow time for wiping. If shooting steel or other novelty targets I use a hunting load.
Cautionary note. While few FL shooters use the product a letter Hodgdon wrote to "Rifle" magazine some years ago explained that if ANYTHING liquid was used to wet the fouling from Pyrodex that ALL the fouling had to be removed immediately. This stemmed from a subscriber wetting a rifle bore (in this case a modern brass suppository arm) with a very common smokeless bore cleaner overnight and the barrel being so damaged that it required replacement. It turns out that the product has alcohol in it and alcohol always has a greater or lesser amount of water in it.
Dan
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Interesting post, Dan, and an exceptionally good note about Pyrodex. The guys should read that several times until all the "nuances" and innuendos are understood.
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I have been using the Lehigh Valley Lube that I ordered from TOTW, which I understand is considered a good product for both patch lube and cleaning. I suspect that I have just been using too little. A barely-damp patch seems to make loading hard.
If I read you all correctly, I want a wet, but not dripping wet, patch. I think I will start soaking them in a Ziploc bag so that they evenly absorb the lube.
I'm also tempted to try Ballistol as a patch lube.
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I like a liquid patch lubricant for trail and target shooting. And I like pre-cut round or square patches. I put my patches that I will use during any given session into a tin with a hinged lid, and pour the liquid into the box. After all of the patches have absorbed as much of the fluid as they will, I gently squeeze the whole sloppy mess and run the EXTRA back into the lube vessel. I like my patches to be soaked - not just damp - but without the liquid running out of the tin.
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A lube like Neatfoots oil or tallow or a water based "lube" can be shot without wiping especially if the shooter blows through the barrel between shots
Not sayin this is a good or bad practice, but if you're gonna shoot at Friendship blowing through the barrel is a major no-no.
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You can easily use a blow-tube made of plastic (or bend metal) tubing, if you need to blow down the barrel (just as many of the BP Ctg. shooters do. Thus, your head never need be over the muzzle.
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You can easily use a blow-tube made of plastic (or bend metal) tubing, if you need to blow down the barrel (just as many of the BP Ctg. shooters do. Thus, your head never need be over the muzzle.
Or, you could just do as I did and quit shooting at Friendship!
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You can easily use a blow-tube made of plastic (or bend metal) tubing, if you need to blow down the barrel (just as many of the BP Ctg. shooters do. Thus, your head never need be over the muzzle.
Or, you could just do as I did and quit shooting at Friendship!
BP cartridge shooters use a blow tube thru the BREECH. That would be a real trick
with a muzzle loader. Blow ACROSS the muzzle and that creates a vacuum to draw
smoke out of the barrel. Simple solution to a non problem.
Bob Roller
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Blowing across the muzzle would have no effect that was usefull. You blow down the barrel to soften the fouling. The old timers did this. In fact it was common practice untill the past decade or so when people got too stupid to not blow down the barrel of a loaded gun....... ::)
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Mike, I still blow down the barrel after each shot. Political correctness and other nonsense says I shouldn't, but I'm well aware of when I discharge my firelocks and doubt that my empty firearm will discharge twice without reloading.
Dan
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You can easily use a blow-tube made of plastic (or bend metal) tubing, if you need to blow down the barrel (just as many of the BP Ctg. shooters do. Thus, your head never need be over the muzzle.
Or, you could just do as I did and quit shooting at Friendship!
There is ALWAYS that Mike - or - you could use a load combination (ball/patch/lube) that does not require blowing down the barrel - in ANY weather, hot, cold, wet or dry with the humidity in the single digits, 7 to 9 - as we do.
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I wipe during a match. But I wipe as I load the ball with my range rod. I don't need to wipe, but once again its a match. I have to shove the ball down anyway so why not do two things at once. I don't do this on trailwalks with the regular wooden rod. I've seen more misfires with people wiping and shoving gob down into the firing chamber and then loading the powder on top if the gob. After short starting the ball I place a patch over the muzzle and shove cleaning patch and the patched ball down on the charge whether I'm using a flint or percussion. The result is no misfires ever from fouling shoved in the chamber. I can safely say that my flintlocks are fire more reliable than the percussion guns at our matches.
Bob
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Bob,
You didn't mention if you are using a wet patch or not or if you are using a tight fitting patch and ball combination. But if you are doing both of those things, as many of us do, it seems that the tight fitting patched ball would do the wiping and little would be gained from putting a cleaning patch (wet or dry) in the barrel on top of the shorted started ball. I'm not knocking your method, just trying to understand what advantage could be gained by doing that.
Also, if that cleaning patch loaded on top of the ball is a dry patch, have you ever found one of them smoldering on the ground? Again, Bob, not knocking you in any way, just curious. Thanks.
Mole Eyes
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About 30 years ago, I started observing what the guys in the winners circle were using and doing. Most didn't wipe, some did.
My bore is always clean. The new load cleans the barrel from the spent one. Residue and a wet patch won't affect your powder's integrity. Loading the ball wrings out the patch, squeezing the lube into the bore above the balls center line as it's pushed on to the charge.
So when you don't swab between shots, you shoot more, dats it! ;D
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If you swab after every shot, you will be almost guaranteed to run out of time before you get your lifetime of shooting done. Of course you will be five,or six years, ahead on your swabbing,if that is any consolation.
One of the founding members of the Konocti Rod and Gun Club, and one of the few old timers that shot muzzleloaders swabbed after every shot at our club matches. Twenty years later we had become good friends, and he invited me to come out to his ranch,and shoot on his private range. We shot for a while,and I finally asked him why he didn't swab after every shot anymore. He laughed, and said that he quit doing that when it stopped agrivating me,and making me shoot poorly. Shooting is a mental game after all.
Hungry Horse
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For offhand shooting, I use a wet patch on the round ball and don't wipe unless a relay gets delayed. For shooting chunk, I wipe between shots and use a damp patch on the ball. The difference is subtle and doesn't show up obviously until 5 shots into the match, but it is there. If the ball starts sticking on the way down, noticeably different from the start, you are not wiping enough for the patch/lube combination... In my opinion. I shot several chunk matches where shot 6 would go wild and then downhill after that. After a couple matches I tried wiping more before shot 6, and relative accuracy was restored. I then doubled my wiping habit and got better consistency shots 1-10, and I can replicate the result pretty much any time by varying the wiping. Of course, each barrel is unique, but the new Rice .50 acts just like the older GM .40. I need all the help I can get shooting chunk!
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For offhand shooting, I use a wet patch on the round ball and don't wipe unless a relay gets delayed. For shooting chunk,... I need all the help I can get shooting chunk!
After attending my first chunk event this last weekend (York), I see exactly why I shall design my procedure for a wipe (with tow of course). The great long delay possible between firing and re-loading is what concerns me-especially in dry air. This is why I stood around taking notes instead of entering the event and load dryballs and shooting cross-targets. ;)
But so long as I can reload after firing without substantial delay, I'll remain wipeless.
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For offhand shooting, I use a wet patch on the round ball and don't wipe unless a relay gets delayed. For shooting chunk,... I need all the help I can get shooting chunk!
After attending my first chunk event this last weekend (York), I see exactly why I shall design my procedure for a wipe (with tow of course). The great long delay possible between firing and re-loading is what concerns me-especially in dry air. This is why I stood around taking notes instead of entering the event and load dryballs and shooting cross-targets. ;)
But so long as I can reload after firing without substantial delay, I'll remain wipeless.
Wade,
That's part of it. I don't wipe until the beginning of the relay, then load and shoot. The other components is that I get better group with the patch less wet, or at least it is easier to get consistently damp patches rather than consistently wet patches, at least for me... And so I have to wipe bore. It's only a matter of 1/2" or so at sixty yards, but it adds up!
Did you shoot the York or watch? I never do well there due to little/no practice over winter and having too much fun just being there, but I wouldn't miss it!
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Hello Moleyes. Regarding my swabbing while loading. I do remove the cleaning patch I just shove the ball down with a patched jag and withdraw.
I use a wet patch (Le-High) Not soaking wet just damp. I have a jag on the end of my steel ramrod. After short starting the damp ball/patch combo and getting it down in the barrel about 4 inches I seat the ball with a cleaning patch on my steel ramrod. After seating it I might slide it up and down and withdraw the jag with the cleaning patch. Just for consistency in the bore condition. When doing woods walks or shooting from the bag I seat with the wood rod without the cleaning patch. I prefer not to swab and don't really know if I need to or not I just like doing it when I seat the ball to make things simpler. Plus in my drum percussion guns I don't ever have a misfire period caused by shoving any gunk up near the nipple.
Bob
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For offhand shooting, I use a wet patch on the round ball and don't wipe unless a relay gets delayed. For shooting chunk,... I need all the help I can get shooting chunk!
After attending my first chunk event this last weekend (York), I see exactly why I shall design my procedure for a wipe (with tow of course). The great long delay possible between firing and re-loading is what concerns me-especially in dry air. This is why I stood around taking notes instead of entering the event and load dryballs and shooting cross-targets. ;)
But so long as I can reload after firing without substantial delay, I'll remain wipeless.
Wade,
That's part of it. I don't wipe until the beginning of the relay, then load and shoot. The other components is that I get better group with the patch less wet, or at least it is easier to get consistently damp patches rather than consistently wet patches, at least for me... And so I have to wipe bore. It's only a matter of 1/2" or so at sixty yards, but it adds up!
Did you shoot the York or watch? I never do well there due to little/no practice over winter and having too much fun just being there, but I wouldn't miss it!
Observation mode. Talked to a few folks too. ;)
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Won't a patch that is "dripping wet" impact the powder charge?
That's what I'm wondering, too.
Hmmm, unless the lube is drawn from the patch as it goes down the barrel, so that the bore is coated and the patch is not as wet when fully seated, perhaps.
You hit it on the head, Bones. Very little touches the charge and I don't think it compromises it enough to notice. Having a soaked patch never hurt the ball on exit that I've noticed either. At the end of shooting all day, your barrel should clean up like you only took a shot or two. JMHO tho.
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Blowing across the muzzle would have no effect that was usefull. You blow down the barrel to soften the fouling. The old timers did this. In fact it was common practice untill the past decade or so when people got too stupid to not blow down the barrel of a loaded gun....... ::)
MY impression as well.
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If you want the very basic view of dealing with bore fouling in a bp fueled ml gun you might want to look at the following information.
Go to:
laflinandrand.com
The Mad Monk On black Powder
Imported Black Powders
Swiss (pdf file) You can download the file.
Page 33, Bore Fouling Properties
It explains why the late 19th century "moist burning" (Nassbrand) powders were highly desired.
Mad Monk
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I don't personally care if someone blows down the barrel of not (my range officers do, however!) -
I just have trouble believing there is enough moisture in one breath to have much of an effect. ???
But whatever trips your trigger !!! ::)
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If you swab after every shot, you will be almost guaranteed to run out of time before you get your lifetime of shooting done. Of course you will be five,or six years, ahead on your swabbing,if that is any consolation.
Hungry Horse
Well put Hungry Horse - there is always the benefit of "being ahead" on swabbing! ;)
Dewey - if you use a moist, sufficiently thick patch, there is no need to blow down the barrel - none at all in ANY weather.
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If you swab after every shot, you will be almost guaranteed to run out of time before you get your lifetime of shooting done. Of course you will be five,or six years, ahead on your swabbing,if that is any consolation.
Hungry Horse
Well put Hungry Horse - there is always the benefit of "being ahead" on swabbing! ;)
Dewey - if you use a moist, sufficiently thick patch, there is no need to blow down the barrel - none at all in ANY weather.
There will be a difference of opinion on this of course.
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Possibly. But mine is the only one worth considering. ;D
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It seems that if one did not swab the bore between shots, that the process of pushing a PRB down the bore would cause a bit of a layer of fouling and soot to form between the powder and PRB by the time loading is complete. I say this based on the amount of black fouling stuck to a patch after swabbing (and the assumption that even more of the fouling was pushed and left at the bottom of the barrel).
Just curious what effect this might have on powder.
Also, I'm thinking of designs for an improved jag that would expand and tighten inside the bore only when it's all the way at the bottom of the barrel. This would enable one to pull all the fouling out of the barrel, instead of pushing most of it to the bottom of the barrel.
If you shoot in a match where precision is important. Like an over the chunk type match then as a friend has said; "you don't have to wipe between shots but you have wipe if you want to win".
Generally speaking rifles shoot better with a "high friction" patch lube. IE, pretty dry. This requires wiping. Damp patch both sides and a dry patch both sides. Jag is loose enough to let the patch ride over the fouling on the down stroke than bunch up and pull the fouling out.
Now if you are shooting gongs or shooting even scoring ring targets then shooting a 4"-5" 10 shot string is not needed to win unless someone shoots all Xs in the paper match.
The primary thing is bore CONDITION being the same from shot to shot.
Solvent patch lube can prevent fouling build up in the bore and it probably shoot pretty darned well, ala Daryl. I don't like this because over the years at the Nationals there have been accidents of varying severity when heavy fouling in the breech held a spark. Back in the 60s a pistol shooter had a rod, ball and patch shot through his wrist. This was the first I heard of but there have been others, one not so long ago on the trap range.
Note I believe that the fouling pushed down the bore by the patch and ball is mostly expelled since its setting on the powder charge. The fouling in the breech is from the powder fouling that never gets touched unless the bore is cleaned.
Obviously Daryl doe not have this issue. How the guns that have been involved with "incidents" were cleaned or not cleaned is not known to me. Improper cleaning could be an issue and long term build up could be a factor. Its not unusual to find significant fouling in the breech of used MLs.
Dan
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If you swab after every shot, you will be almost guaranteed to run out of time before you get your lifetime of shooting done. Of course you will be five,or six years, ahead on your swabbing,if that is any consolation.
Hungry Horse
Well put Hungry Horse - there is always the benefit of "being ahead" on swabbing! ;)
Dewey - if you use a moist, sufficiently thick patch, there is no need to blow down the barrel - none at all in ANY weather.
If hunting in Montana or other prairie areas along the eastern front and the Humidity is in the very low double digits, under 20 percent and you don't want to reload with a water based patched lube you better blow down the bore or wipe it or a stuck ball could be the result. Where I live 50% or more means it may rain. Rained for quite some time before about 1PM some VERY heavy, but now as the clouds have thinned and its partly sunny, 8pm Mountain Time temp 55 the humidity has dropped to 45%. I have used about anything in the inventory that is not water based, Sperm Whale Oil, Neetsfoot, tallow, beeswax mixed with the Sperm Whale Oil (its pretty good actually). if the fouling is set up hard it takes some H2O to soften it. Blowing is the best option short of wiping. Once in the mountains or when the weather cools out on the plains its not so critical.
Dan
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I fully concur that when shooting in low humidity - the fouling from one shot will make sticky/crunchy loading if not loaded soon after that shot. Also, that when shooting and loading in hot weather and low humidity, the drying time of the damp fouling after each shot, happens much more quickly than when the weather is cooler. None of us have trouble loading and shooting the various trail walks at Rendezvous B.C. shoots at Hefley Creek - and the temps can be as hot as 100F - once at 122F, and the humidity in the single digits, 5 to 8.
Under those circumstances, as I have said right right here at ALR a number of times, if I was in a chunk shoot, or plank shoot where there were a number of minutes between shots - 5-15 or more, I-too would probably wipe the bore after my last shot, just to maintain consistency - as waiting too long to load gives the damp bore time to dry out and make the fouling crunchy.
I also maintain when the shooting is fairly rapid - there is complete consistency in my bore condition - it does not change from 5 shots to 100 shots - the grouping capability of my rifles shows this.
Mike - when I said that if you used a sufficiently thick patch, there is no need to blow down the barrel - none at all in ANY weather", that was a statement of fact - it was not an opinion.
Of course, I took for granted one might know one needed some form of lubricant or fouling softener.
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This is how it worked out for me.
Thompson Center 50 kit Hawken.
Played with various combinations of patch, lube, wiping, what ever I could think of, because it just didn't shoot the way I wanted. Didn't know about thick wet patches.
Thompson Center 54 Renegade, never fired.
Tried the thick wet patch from day one. Ragged one hole groups at 50 yards, always, as long as I feel like shooting.
Went back to my .50, spotless clean, thick wet patch, one ragged hole at 50 yards .
My goal was a simple process with good accuracy.
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The thicker, wet patch trick works for me as well CTS. Thanks to Daryl & Taylor for alerting us to this method! ;D
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Not swabbing between shots? Well, where I shoot, you get a warning. If you continue you get kicked out.
That club requires that you swab between shoots, no exceptions. They believe it is unsafe to load without swabbing. I personally think that viewpoint is incorrect. Unfortunately if I want to play in their sandbox I must play by their rules. So, I use a nearly dry patch. Just wet enough as to not stick in the bore, no more. If you use it wet you will have misfires.
I do find it humorous to see all this misfires. Some use wet patches between shots. Some of them can't get a rifle to fire reliably. Lots of busted caps an flinching going on. It is obviously because of their "safety" policy. To my way of thinking, if the rifle is unreliable, that is unsafe. I think they are trading one kind of hazard for another.
A few of them shoot really well. I will grant them that. It is interesting to me that such a simple firearm and sport can be made so complicated.
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;) I agree, Scota4570 - when we go to a shoot or to the club's trail, we go to shoot. After we finish shooting and maybe having lunch and a beer, THEN it's time to clean - we likes it simple.
I can somewhat understand the paranoia though - as some think smoke coming from the vent or muzzle after a shot means there is still something burning in the barrel - and - trouble is, that could with true with people who shoot really loose, light loads.
Why, one lad thought there was unburnt powder left inside the bore of a cannon after a shot and that's why the bore was WET scubbed after each shot - to damp down that left over powder so it wouldn't go off unexpectedly. Some times, these people get to make the rules for clubs.
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This is the first I've heard of using a wetter patch and not wiping. I'm going to give it a try. Nothing breaks down rhythm like wiping the barrel...
Brand new to this forum and already picked up a handy tidbit. Nice!
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When just shooting in a match, plinking or whatever, My rhythm I includes a wipe. One pass in and out w a damp patch. Next wipe other side of the same patch. I've used wet patch too and it does work. Wiping is just what I've done for 40+ years and it doesn't hurt.
TC
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Good Evening All,
"To be or Not to be; that is the question." Oh...., FUDGE! I got this forum mixed up with the Shakespeare Forum.
The question is "To Wipe or Not to Wipe; that is the question." Now Fellow Forum Members, do not let your imagination go too far astray.
This a debate that is never settled of finished. It is endless, but I will put in my .02 cents worth. I have been shooting the ML Rifle and researching the subject since when most of the members on this forum were still wearing diapers or at least training pants.
The historical evidence is that under most circumstances the oldtimers wiped their barrel between shot. Somewhere in my files are two specific historic references to wiping the barrel. One was the recollections of an older gentleman recalling a day in his youth as a referee in a squirrel shooting contest. He stated that after every shot, every shooter "wiped" his barrel before reloading.
I do now recall another instance, a group of Rocky Mountain trappers encountered a group of "Hostiles" The brigade leader shouted out to the men. "Better pull your wiping sticks Boys! We might have to shoot"
There is of course, a great deal of difference between a peaceful shooting match and a life or death shooting situation or even a very quickly needed second follow-up shot in the hunting field.
The second reference came from a name most folks here will recognize, one David Crockett. He stated that during a beef or turkey shoot, every contestant carefully wiped their rifles before reloading for the next shot. In both instances, I doubt very much that the shooters were wiping the outside of the barrel or the stock.
I realize that I no longer have the experience of youth, and are stuck with my antique methods. These go so far back, that at that time, all of the shooter at a monthly event arrived, carrying a heavy duty wooden "wiping stick" in the bore of their rifle. One end of the "wiping stick" was notched (probably with a pocket knife) to form a jag.
These gentlemen wiped between every shot; no exceptions. Metal range rods were still two or three years away. Most of these men wiped with water with a small amount of soap, then a second patch to dry the bore. The favorite patch lube was Hubbers Shoe Grease. A few used a spit patch, sometimes flavored with Beech Nut.
Since the relays were 30 minutes in length, there was plenty of time to wipe the bore between shots and get off 5 shots for record and 2 or 3 extra practice shots.
My old Mentor, the late "Judge" H. E. Resley of Fort Stockton, Texas explained to me that there were three reasons to wipe the bore between shots.
1. To maintain consistent bore condition for best accuracy.
2. To ensure that no glowing embers were left in the barrel that would ignite a fresh powder charge.
3. To keep something called the "Crud Ring" from forming 1/2" to 1" in front the powder charge. The ball would seat against the "Crud Ring" leaving a large air space in front of the powder charge, thus creating a very possible bomb situation.
Gentle Forum Members, I will have to finish this tomorrow. The wife is becking me to finish a few household chores. I am sure you married men understand.
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
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FWIW, At the range, plinking, trail walks, etc, I use a liquid lube, Hoppes BP Lube, and never have to wipe. In the bush in search of deer the rifle is always lubed with mink oil. A "quick" second load is no trouble with m. o. but swabbing is usually warranted somewhere around the 3rd or 4th shot. Often I'll carry a few Hoppes lubed patches so I don't need to swab. I use a fairly thick(er) patch, .019"-.020" squeezing the caliper jaws as hard as I can. And yes, I'm still looking to either a .005" larger ball, an even thicker patch or both. Snug patches do stop fouling buildup. Any time tree rats are on the menu a liquid lube, Hoppes, is used as lots of shots may be taken. Other's preferences may differ.
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"What happens when you don't swab between shots? « 1 2 3 4 »"
The above sentence is the title of this thread.
Much has been written on this topic.
Answering the actual question, though, has not been done in it's entirety - close, though.
To answer this question is simple
: If you do not swab between shots, you will have the opportunity to fire more shots in any 'given' period of time. ;)
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Greetings All,
Daryl has stated an absolute truism that cannot be disputed, and I totally agree with his assessment.
One can absolutely shoot more times in a given time frame if one does not wipe the bore between shots.
Hard, if not impossible, to argue with that.
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
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Greetings All,
Daryl has stated an absolute truism that cannot be disputed, and I totally agree with his assessment.
One can absolutely shoot more times in a given time frame if one does not wipe the bore between shots.
Hard, if not impossible, to argue with that.
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
Yes he did.
Also, it appears that you've not come to the understanding yet that Daryl Sapergia and many of his shooting pals, both local to him and some located great distances from the Great White North have found that a "properly" tight loading combination with a thick, well-lubricated patch can eliminate any of the "reasons" for wiping. At all.
That these fellows shoot trail matches without wiping. All day long. Ten shots or fifty two, if the combo is right each new loading wipes the previous shot and ZERO build-up or ring creation can happen.
But there is a tremendous resistance to the adoption of this truth by the black-powder shooting community. That's okay, do it your way. But it's not fair to newcomers, nor an accurate statement to claim that "wiping is necessary" at ANY interval of shots. It's all a matter of HOW YOU DO IT.
If one chooses to load a "slip/slop" fit and/or with bedsheet thickness patching, then INDEED he will do a lot of wiping to keep operations going smoothly. I would say that he's/she's losing accuracy and performance as well, but that's a slightly different discussion.
The only time I have to wipe (or will) is when I cannot reload immediately and the fouling becomes tough in dry air. This is why I'll wipe at the York or any time I have to wait some time before dropping another charge.
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When I started this thread, my main concern was buildup of residue in the bottom of the barrel if you don't wipe. Since then, I had an experience where I was wiping between shots, and after 7 or 8 shots, the vent hole began to foul. I wiped the bore, cleaned a bit with a scraper (which brought out a good bit of crud) and decided to try loading without wiping between shots.
Not surprising to many of you, my vent-fouling issue seemed to go away. However, if I let the rifle sit between relays, it was a bear to load the next round, as the fouling had set up in the barrel.
In many ways, it makes sense now. If I was using a jag/patch combination a bit too tight, I would be pushing fouling down. Shooting may have just compacted this fouling rather than blowing out with each shot.
By not swabbing, one can get the powder down into the breech area without fouling being accumulated near the vent. Loading a PRB will certainly push a bit of fouling down with it, but perhaps this is a good thing... it may serve to form a bit of a layer between a wet/greased patch and the powder.
I believe I will try loading without swabbing, and use a better lubricated patch. I think a more persistent lube (i.e. something that will leave a longer-lasting coating on the bore) may be a bit better than LVL or spit, which can quickly dry on the surface of a hot bore.
There are so many factors that are at play here, and I understand that there is not just one way to do things. But I have learned quite a bit, and I hope some of you have, as well. I plan to read through this entire thread once in a while, as there is a wealth of "gouge" (useful info) to be gleaned.
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Not surprising to many of you, my vent-fouling issue seemed to go away. However, if I let the rifle sit between relays, it was a bear to load the next round, as the fouling had set up in the barrel.
Blow about three huge breaths down the barrel and you'll be able to load with ease after a pause.
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Blow about three huge breaths down the barrel and you'll be able to load with ease after a pause.
Mike, I've wondered about that. Recently, I have blown down the muzzle a few times, and was surprised at how thick a smoke came out the vent. It would make sense that this heavy smoke would settle to the walls of the bore.
But if at the end of a relay, it would probably be wise to swab the bore with a lubed patch, anyway.
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I've been blowing down the bore since the 70's. My head is still intact.
For target work I use a Ballistol mixed kind of strong with water. For hunting, I use bear tallow.
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Well, I both blow down the bore AND use a, at least for me, snug ball/patch combo. Lube does make a difference, again in my shooting, with liquid lubes allowing an afternoon of shots to be fired without the need for wiping the bore. Burned black powder releases about 1/2 gases and 1/2 solid fouling. This is why the smoke needs to be blown from the barrel; otherwise it forms fouling in the bore. Grease lubes don't work as well for me as liquids. I pre-clean my guns prior to returning home. I usually start with a scraper and it is rare that there's anything to remove; The scraper basically comes out clean. A loose prb fit simply won't allow this.
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Liquid lubes freeze up on me for hunting in cold weather. That's why I use bear tallow for hunting.
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Greetings All,
I have no argument with anybody's method of loading: wiping the bore or not wiping the bore between shots, whatever. Nor have any intention of trying to change anybody's mind about their method, nor try win some kind of argument.
To each, his (or her) their own; different strokes for different folks.
Everybody has a procedure that works for them, and they are not about to change that. I have no problem with that. Live and let live.
Sorry fellows, I will not be a part of a debate or argue the merits what somebody does or does not do.
However, a question was asked , and I partially stated my answer. Here is the rest of my answer.
For over 60 years, and at least 30,000 - 35,000 rounds, I have used the the wiping between shots method. The only variable has been experimenting with different solvents. For the most part, Black Solve has the primary wiping/cleaning agent since it was first put on the market.
After each shot, a 2" X 2" cotton flannel patch is moistened on each corner. Do not moisten the center; nothing to clean in the center of the bore.
The patch is run up and down the bore three times, then the patch is turned over and run up and down the bore three more times. If the day is humid, a second patch is used to completely dry the bore. Most of Texas is usually pretty dry, so the second patch is seldom needed. I do use Teflon coated ball patching material; even used it for hunting. It is always dry and consistent. Most of my shooting is with a favorite 50 caliber custom Hawken using a .500 ball with 0.018 Teflon coated patching
The rifle is then loaded. NEVER have had a misfire except the times I overlooked dropping in a powder charge. The fellows I shoot with all wipe between shots, They have any misfires, because of a wet patch.
And oh yeah, blowing down the bore is strictly prohibited at the ranges, I frequent. Definitely a no-no at the NMLRA range at Friendship, and that rule is enforced.
Other than a few times in the hunting field, I have never had a need to rush to load a quick second shot.
Since I stopped hunting close to 15 years ago, all of my shooting has been at the range, attending 2 - 3 local matches a month; sometimes just one. The relays are usually 30 minutes, so can leisurely take my time. Always have time for 2-3 shots on a practice target with 5 more for record. Even in 15 minute silhouette relays always have plenty of time to wipe the bore and get off 5 shots.
Shooting is also a very pleasant way for me to spend 1-3 days a week at the range (Did I mention that I am retired?). There is no need for me to rush my shooting by not wiping the bore between shots. The range time is relaxed, therapeutic, a time to try new ideas, test what the old timers (or new timers ) did/ are doing, and just enjoy being there to smell the roses.
The range is a private one Most of the time, it is just my wife and me. Incidentally, back in June, 2016, she won the Texas Muzzle Rifle Association Ladies State Championship, and that after only three years of shooting. She wipes the bore between shots; must be doing something right. I will eventually figure out what it is.
Well that is my method and reasons for wiping the rifle bore between shot and has been for 60 plus years. Do not intend to change. Have tried about all of the other methods posted here. Been there; done that. They are OK; no argument from me, but I still continue to wipe the bore between shots.
I would recommend that new shooters to the sport start by wiping the bore between shots. Once some experience has been gained, experiment with the other methods described in this thread. You are the one that has to be satisfied
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
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Blow about three huge breaths down the barrel and you'll be able to load with ease after a pause.
Mike, I've wondered about that. Recently, I have blown down the muzzle a few times, and was surprised at how thick a smoke came out the vent. It would make sense that this heavy smoke would settle to the walls of the bore.
But if at the end of a relay, it would probably be wise to swab the bore with a lubed patch, anyway.
You blow down the barrel to keep the fouling soft, the moisture in your breath does this. Has nothing to do with the smoke or extinguishing embers.
Up untill the mid 90's everybody I knew blew down the barrel, even at Friendship. Then the NMLRA had some anti gunner come through Friendship and see people blowing down the barrel and had a fit. The NMLRA got all scared and lawyered up and outlawed blowing down the barrel. So, I quit going there as well as anywhere else that dictates how you load and shoot your rifle. Life is too short to deal with BS. So, I pretty much just shoot muzzleloaders at home for my own enjoyment. I don't see well enough to compete anymore anyway. ::)
BP cartridge shooters use a blow tube from the breech to soften fouling as well, same principle.
As Hanshi says a tight ball/patch combo works as well, as well as plenty off lube. Anyone who wants to swab the bore every shot is more than welcome in my book, I have just always tried to figure out a way around it, I'd rather shoot than clean my gun all day.
The two guns I'm shooting now are fouling about 8" down the muzzle for a short section, seems lube starvation is the problem . I had bought some pre-lubed patches and I don't believe they're carry enough lube. I just got some more patches and I'll be lubing by hand with wonder lube or something similar.
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I've been retired for 19 years. I have plenty of time to shoot and except for the middle of winter I shoot every day. I not only blow down the barrel, but use a sort of wet patch, and I swab every shot. I think I have all the bases covered. I like a clean bore when I shoot. I'm never in a rush.
As I said already I use bear tallow for hunting. I use it on a squeaky clean bore and i've never needed a fast 2nd shot, so I have plenty of time to make it squeaky clean again before reloading.
Right or wrong that's my method.
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Mike, I've noticed that recently, as well... like a rough patch of fouling about 8" down. I am certain I'm not using enough lubrication. I'm actually thinking about letting some of my patches absorb a bit of Bore Butter. I have a tube or two laying around... might as well use it.
Funny, but I figured blowing the smoke out of the barrel would, in fact, keep some fouling from sticking to the bore. Any humidity from one's breath would be dissipated quickly in a warm bore... or so my simple mind would think.
Also, I didn't start this thread to change anyone's mind or challenge anyone's ways of doing things. There are many suitable approaches. I was just curious about what actually happens if one does or doesn't swab. I've been able to figure out a bit of it on my own these past few trips to the range, but I still enjoy hearing what others think.
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I've always said if someone is always in a rush. They should just shoot a CF gun.
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When using a thicker wet patch, don't you have to use a slightly small ball size to permit the thicker patch to seat?......sonny
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Sonny: you can use patches that vary in thickness from .015" to .025", as an example, using the same ball, provided it is dead soft lead.
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I've always said if someone is always in a rush. They should just shoot a CF gun.
I do...I'm not prejudiced .... ;) as long as it shoots a projectile I'm for it.
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I used to. I'm hung up on the dirty stuff now. ;D
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I used to wipe between shots, and when I did I noticed that the mark on my ramrod would work up from the muzzle, meaning that crud was building up on the breech plug from being pushed down the barrel. I would run my scraper down and turn it around a few times, and when I tipped the gun upside down, grains of hard, dry black stuff would fall out on my hand. Now that I have stopped wiping, except for those times at competitions when there is a long wait between relays, this never happens, and I don't have any trouble ramming successive loads. I took Daryl's advice about not wiping, and I haven't had any trouble with fouling. I mostly use spit, putting the patch in my mouth while I measure and pour the powder. Now, if I could just stop my long gun from wobbling around when I shoot off hand, I'd be very, very happy.
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I used to wipe between shots, and when I did I noticed that the mark on my ramrod would work up from the muzzle, meaning that crud was building up on the breech plug from being pushed down the barrel. I would run my scraper down and turn it around a few times, and when I tipped the gun upside down, grains of hard, dry black stuff would fall out on my hand. Now that I have stopped wiping, except for those times at competitions when there is a long wait between relays, this never happens, and I don't have any trouble ramming successive loads. I took Daryl's advice about not wiping, and I haven't had any trouble with fouling. I mostly use spit, putting the patch in my mouth while I measure and pour the powder. Now, if I could just stop my long gun from wobbling around when I shoot off hand, I'd be very, very happy.
Yeah.
I blow down the bore for shore. I need to make a blow tube so I can "sneak" my breath (always quite handy) down the pipe when in competition (the ONLY time you'll find me at a range frequented by
Joe "RockThatSemiTriggerFAST" Sixpack).
Mmm, Goex residue. :P
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Your ramrod will clime little by little, noticeable especially in a small bored rifle, even if you don't wipe between shots. When you load successive shots, your patched ball cleans the bore down to the powder charge, but the space occupied by the powder never gets cleaned, and the fouling accumulates not only against the plug, but in the bore itself, creating a smaller and smaller area for the charge to rest. Thus the charge must go somewhere and into the previously occupied space above the last charges is where it goes.
To get around this, you can either wipe occasionally, or you can load a pistol load of only 20 or so grains of powder, and a sloppy wet patched ball, to clean further down the bore.
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Good Evening OldMtnMan,
Have a question for you about using bear grease for a patch lube. It would seem that bear grease was the favorite lube with the old timers. Ned Robert wrote that Sperm Oil was also preferred when one could get it.
Back in my first 10-15 years of ML shooting, I tried everything that anybody wrote about. Once had a quart jar of bear grease (35-40 years back). Used it; had no problem. Used about 1/3 to 1/4 of it, then gave to the guys I shot with at that time. Nobody had any complaint; it worked well.
Brownell's had sperm oil at one time, very expensive through. Used that for a while; gave the rest to a friend. He liked it. Both of us did not think that bear grease or sperm oil had any thing special over the other. Used a number of other natural greases, coon, wild hog, unsalted bacon grease, etc. All worked well. None seem to have been better than the others.
Always came back to Hubbers Shoe Grease. It was not expensive and always easy to find. Used that until Hoppes No. 9 Plus came out, then used that for several years until I started using Teflon coated cotton patching. Have been using that for the past 20 years or more. Will probably continue to that the rest of my shooting life. Have experimented with Young Country Lube and the old Ox-Yoke lube.
All of these gave good or better results.
So OldMtnMan, what makes bear grease special and sets it apart from the other lubes? Have you found something special about it that escapes me? Or is simply the mystic and lore of using what the old timers
used?
This is a serious question. I have no intent to start a debate. but am curious. Never too old to learn something. It is obvious that my shooting and loading is a more formal type of range shooting than most of the members on this thread. I live in a different camp, but we all shoot the muzzle loading rifle.
And just for the record, I have never used anything but real black powder in my 60 plus years of shooting the ML rifle.
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
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My thoughts are do whatever works well in your weapon keeping an open mind and don,t BS your self about the results.
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Good Evening OldMtnMan,
Have a question for you about using bear grease for a patch lube. It would seem that bear grease was the favorite lube with the old timers. Ned Robert wrote that Sperm Oil was also preferred when one could get it.
Back in my first 10-15 years of ML shooting, I tried everything that anybody wrote about. Once had a quart jar of bear grease (35-40 years back). Used it; had no problem. Used about 1/3 to 1/4 of it, then gave to the guys I shot with at that time. Nobody had any complaint; it worked well.
Brownell's had sperm oil at one time, very expensive through. Used that for a while; gave the rest to a friend. He liked it. Both of us did not think that bear grease or sperm oil had any thing special over the other. Used a number of other natural greases, coon, wild hog, unsalted bacon grease, etc. All worked well. None seem to have been better than the others.
Always came back to Hubbers Shoe Grease. It was not expensive and always easy to find. Used that until Hoppes No. 9 Plus came out, then used that for several years until I started using Teflon coated cotton patching. Have been using that for the past 20 years or more. Will probably continue to that the rest of my shooting life. Have experimented with Young Country Lube and the old Ox-Yoke lube.
All of these gave good or better results.
So OldMtnMan, what makes bear grease special and sets it apart from the other lubes? Have you found something special about it that escapes me? Or is simply the mystic and lore of using what the old timers
used?
This is a serious question. I have no intent to start a debate. but am curious. Never too old to learn something. It is obvious that my shooting and loading is a more formal type of range shooting than most of the members on this thread. I live in a different camp, but we all shoot the muzzle loading rifle.
And just for the record, I have never used anything but real black powder in my 60 plus years of shooting the ML rifle.
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
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One thing wrong here. I did NOT post any thing and this is my first post of the day.
I have both bear grease (over the objections of the bear) and sperm oil in an antique
can.Also half of a bottle of sperm oil I bought from Wes Kindig about 50 years ago so
I am assuming it is a stable lube.
I have done little PRB shooting in the last few years so can't comment on how these
ancient lubes will work with such loads. I also have read the writings of Ned Roberts
and Walter Cline and have high regard for the research the did.Cline refurbished worn
out relics and got acceptable results and Roberts was in the Industrial Northeast and
had better quality rifles to test and wrote about them.
When I shot PRB matches in the late 1950's and early 60's I used a light 58 caliber
hunting rifle with a Bill Large barrel and a lock and single set trigger of my own make.
I used a .575 ball in a .576 bore with a GI cleaning patch soaked in Black Solve which
was a concentrate that made a quart jar full. It looked like anti freeze and was claimed to
have silicon as an ingredient. It WORKED and worked well in that barrel which was the
first octagon barrel Bill made after he got his big shop going. He gave it to me and said he
didn't know if it was any good or not.
I have no good advice for any loads and used what I had on hand and I think we all do
that to a certain extent.
Bob Roller
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Good Evening OldMtnMan,
Have a question for you about using bear grease for a patch lube. It would seem that bear grease was the favorite lube with the old timers. Ned Robert wrote that Sperm Oil was also preferred when one could get it.
Back in my first 10-15 years of ML shooting, I tried everything that anybody wrote about. Once had a quart jar of bear grease (35-40 years back). Used it; had no problem. Used about 1/3 to 1/4 of it, then gave to the guys I shot with at that time. Nobody had any complaint; it worked well.
Brownell's had sperm oil at one time, very expensive through. Used that for a while; gave the rest to a friend. He liked it. Both of us did not think that bear grease or sperm oil had any thing special over the other. Used a number of other natural greases, coon, wild hog, unsalted bacon grease, etc. All worked well. None seem to have been better than the others.
Always came back to Hubbers Shoe Grease. It was not expensive and always easy to find. Used that until Hoppes No. 9 Plus came out, then used that for several years until I started using Teflon coated cotton patching. Have been using that for the past 20 years or more. Will probably continue to that the rest of my shooting life. Have experimented with Young Country Lube and the old Ox-Yoke lube.
All of these gave good or better results.
So OldMtnMan, what makes bear grease special and sets it apart from the other lubes? Have you found something special about it that escapes me? Or is simply the mystic and lore of using what the old timers
used?
This is a serious question. I have no intent to start a debate. but am curious. Never too old to learn something. It is obvious that my shooting and loading is a more formal type of range shooting than most of the members on this thread. I live in a different camp, but we all shoot the muzzle loading rifle.
And just for the record, I have never used anything but real black powder in my 60 plus years of shooting the ML rifle.
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
Hi John,
It's really simple in my case John. I live in Colorado at 8000ft and hunt up to 12,000ft. It can get cold here during hunting seasons. I wanted a patch lube that wouldn't harden up when it's cold. Lot's of lubes will accomplish that. So, that's one reason.
2nd reason is as you guessed it's PC to the fur trade era that I like to follow. That's just a personal reason.
The 3rd reason may be a little strange to some. I'm a bear hunter. I hunt mostly for elk and bear, but bear hunting is much more of a challenge and it's much more exciting. Baiting is not legal here and I wouldn't do it anyway. So, my style is to sneak in on game (still hunting) close. Getting close face to face with bears can keep you alert. I love it though. I'll be hunting for bear long after I retire from elk hunting. Which will be soon.
So, using bear grease somehow seems right. I also eat bear jerky during the hunt. I wou;ld also wear clothing made from bear hide, but my best friend is a Lakota Indian, and I give him the bear hides. He makes drums from them.
Somehow using bear products brings me more in tune with the bears. I told you it will seem strange. The good part is bear grease happens to be a great patch lube, so i'm not sacrificing anything.
Hope that helps explain.
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I use bear grease when hunting-- works fine. I also use spit at the range and it works fine too, and its cheap.
K
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Good Morning OldMtnMan,
Many thanks for the reply to my question. I did you used the bear grease because it was more fitting to the era you follow, and that is completely understandable.
I personally will not use that PC word(s). The way it is today by certain groups it is just a substitute for Censorship. I about as non PC as you get, as most likely many of the members of this forum are.
And enough of that. And, everybody, please let us not turn this thread into a PC discussion.
Now back to the real subject.
I greatly enjoyed your background information. It was very interesting but all too brief. I would like very much to hear more, but that subject is probably for another thread.
Fellow members, When I fired my first shot through a ML rifle in 1953, I was more interested in shooting than combining shooting with a particular historical era. My tutoring was more along the lines of Ned Roberts.
There was very few ML supplies available in the 1950's, so everybody I shot with was very concerned about wiping the bore between shots before reloading, so that is what I learned. Besides the commonly available Hubbers Shoe and Boot Grease, Crisco was the next commonly used patch lube.I was too young and too new to the game to have any original thoughts of my own, so just followed the lead of the men who were teaching me. These gentlemen tried everything from bear grease to spit; always looking for something better, but always wiped the bore between shots. I never questioned that.
To give an idea what WAS NOT available. Dixie Gun Works was new. Turner Kirkland was a very young man. The DWC's catalog was less than 40 pages, printed on a purple spirit master copier, folded, and stapled to form a 4-1/4 X 8-12 size catalog. The price was 50 cents. I ordered mine by taping five dimes to an index card inside an envelope and sending the order off the U.S. Mail.Received the catalog about 10 days later.
I completely understand the desire that many members here have to replicate the ways of a long ago time(s). As a historian and researcher, I have a deep appreciation for what our forefathers and (and mothers) did. My family has been in this country since 1620. I can only imagine their hardships.
So let continue to have this discussion, hopefully in a very civil manner. OldMtnMan's reply to my question was that type of reply.
I also strongly think that the shooting and reloading advice for "newbies to this fine sport should be simple and safe, and for that reason, I do recommend starting by wiping the bore between shots. When they have acquired a better understanding of shooting the ML rifle (things like the best powder/patch/ ball combination for their rifle proper cleaning after shooting)) then encourage them to simulate what the Old Timers did.
All too many new ML shooters quit because of a lack of understanding these problems. These are folks we cannot afford to lose.
Keep it simple for them.
With that, I doubt if there is much more I can contribute to this thread other than to say we all shoot the ML rifle, just live in different camps.
See you on another thread.
My respects to All.
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
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John....................Let me further explain my comment. I too could care less what anybody else thinks of what I do. I don't go to a rendezvous that would be like that. I'd probably end up slugging someone. Not a good idea at my age.
No, I meant I like to be correct to my era for just myself. It's a lifestyle to certain extent. I want to experience what the mountain men did. I can't of course, but I do what I can do.
I know this is a longrifle forum, and what i'm doing doesn't fit in, but I have the same passion for my era that you guys do. I just came along later in history. There's something about living in the Rockies and thinking about the mountain men that appeals to me.
Anyway, I didn't mean using PC the way I did. I should have explained better.
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Good Afternoon OldMtnMan,
I understood exactly what you were telling me. Hope that I did not offend you. You and I are pretty much in the same philosophical boat.
About that PC comment; I did completely understand what you were saying, and I was not offended in any way. I just have had it up to and way past with this pc bull droppings. That is the reason I do not use that word unless it has un as the first two letters.
No need for you to explain any further.
I am a bit busy right now (my wife wants to go to local HEB Market Place), but when I get back, do to relate an interesting true story about bear grease. This will NOT be one my infamous and notorious Texas Tall Tales.
Jim Bridger and I would have gotten along great telling Tale Tell stories around a camp fire.
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
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Ok John. I'm always up for a good tall tale. Even if it's true. ;D
I feel i'd get along with Jim too.
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Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, gents, but "PC" around here means PERIOD correct, not "politically" correct. If that was already understood by everyone, I apologize...just want to be sure we all understand the abbreviations.
I am a shooter and hunter, but I don't and have never competed with muzzleloaders. I have a lifelong history of firing just about every kind of gun, civilian and military modern weapons to the old-time stuff we all love on this forum. My experience with modern weapons over a lifetime of shooting and hunting eventually meant that flintlocks, due to my (also lifelong) love of early American history, became what I shoot the most today. I find myself rarely shooting anything else these days. Since the history of these old guns is so much a part of why I do it (I have ancestors that came to America in the 1600s, too), I'm only interested in shooting the guns the way they did it back then.
To each his own in this game, and I love to hear of everyone's techniques as there's more than one way to skin a cat, but personally bear grease, or mink oil are the way I do it all the time. I've shot on the range with some modern lubes, but really, the reason I carry that flintlock in the woods is to do it like my ancestors.
So the idea of never wiping, or wiping every shot, just doesn't occur to me. I don't think the frontiersmen or hunters in the 1700s wiped after every shot, nor do I believe they hammered super-tight balls down their barrels so they wouldn't have to wipe in a hundred shots. I can fire accurate groups with animal fat for lube, shooting balls .010 to .020 smaller than bore, with a patch around .020... and shoot at least eight to ten shots before I wipe the bore. With all of my rifles and smoothbores. And they load easily and quickly without taking a sledge hammer to them. I believe that that is closer to the way the flintlocks were shot in the 1700s, and it works for me, so I'm happy.
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John - for very cold weather, I found nothing better than marmot oil - or real Neetsfoot Oil. Both remained quite liquid at sub-freezing temps.
I also used, in my 14 bore hunting rifle, only the first shot was a patched ball - I had 5 paper ctgs. in my pocket - which gave same accuracy as a patched ball shot to the same point of impact. I could load and shoot a second shot in 8 seconds. I was practiced and able to perform this quite easily. With the paper ctgs. I could fire up to 10 with equal accuracy - the bore became a mite crunchy and I had to fire a cleaning load using a light 3 drams (82gr.) 2F charge and wet patched ball - then I could load up to another 10 ctgs. before needing another cleaning shot.
That was all with using a short starter, my normal load of .030" patch and .684" ball in the .69 (14 bore) rifle - using the rifle's wooden rod. I did not need a hammer, sledge or mallet to load this or any load in that rifle. I do not understand why people have to use mallets or hammers to load snug combinations. I also use, when hunting & sometimes on trail walks, only the rifle's hickory rod for loading - which is original to the rifle which was made in 1986 - 30 years old, now - WOW!
It was only a 23 years old when this picture was taken with my late buddy Brad holding the rifle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F14%2520Bore%2F2ec0cbe0_1.jpg&hash=b4828f20cb87dcdb8e26339f892366c409613f54) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/14%20Bore/2ec0cbe0_1.jpg.html)
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How hard do you have to squeeze a marmot to get oil out of it?
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PC means period correct to me. Who mentioned politically correct?
I'll say again. I've never found a situation when a quick 2nd shot was needed. I've never run into hostile Indians, so that's one part of PC that isn't going to happen. I have lots of time to swab between shots.
I think everybody should use their method without critiquing how others do it.
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I don't think anybody is critiquing anybody, just an exchange of information.
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YES - if you use the fat from inside the cavity only (marmot or bear), you will get more clear liquid oil and less lard/shortening. Friend of mine up in Smithers used to simply put a handful of inner fat in a zip-lock bag, then store them in the freezer. When needed for water proofing his boots, he'd take out a bag of fat and run it onto his boots - worked better for him than any commercial prep.
I found that after handling the fat, I needed to wash my hands with dish soap - twice, to get all the fat off them.
The marmot oil I had was from the largest ones, the Hoary Marmots on Hudson's Bay Mountain. It made a very good patch lube, for my .58 Hawken.
I used very low heat to 'try' it out from the fat.
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I personally will not use that PC word(s). The way it is today by certain groups it is just a substitute for Censorship. I about as non PC as you get, as most likely many of the members of this forum are.
And enough of that. And, everybody, please let us not turn this thread into a PC discussion.
OldMtnMan,
I could be wrong, but based on context I'm not certain John is referring to "period correct" when he reads the words "PC".
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Daryl,
I wonder if fat from eastern woodchucks would work as well, being close cousins of the marmots...I've always noticed how greasy they are. Next big one I shoot I plan to skin to make some pouches, so I'll have to try rendering the fat as well. I agree that low low heat is the way to get the most liquid oil.
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Good Morning OldMtnMan,
OK..., OK,
Yes..., I am referring to words "Political Correctness" as used by those who are consider a number us to be "Political Uncorrect" for our beliefs and our style of life.
And I do strongly think that word is just another word for "Censorship." Just look at the colleges and universities across this county that issue a formal list of words that cannot be uttered on campus without reprisal.
My paternal Grandfather taught me "There is never any excuse for bad manners." And I work everyday trying to live by that. Some days are much harder that others, but not the case here.
Now please..., can we end this before I am accused of trying to start political discussion, which is definitely not my intention. This is one of those times when I wish I had kept my opinion to myself and my big mouth shut.
My apologies to anybody I might have offended. Perhaps one of the moderator will move this part of this discussion to a more appropriate thread.
My respects to All,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
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I was talking about doing things as they did in the fur trade era. I don't know why you thought I meant political correctness when I said PC?
btw...I go out of my way to never be politically correct. I'm never offended, but i'm sure I offend. Just a grumpy old mountain man.
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Daryl,
I wonder if fat from eastern woodchucks would work as well, being close cousins of the marmots...I've always noticed how greasy they are. Next big one I shoot I plan to skin to make some pouches, so I'll have to try rendering the fat as well. I agree that low low heat is the way to get the most liquid oil.
I don't see why woodchucks would not make good oil for patching. Even if it came out in a fairly solid state, the shortening should also work - in warmer weather, after all, bear grease does.
Dan always suggests to use a double boiler for rendering fat into oil.
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Well Folks, what happens to me is that I typically shoot 40 shots a session without fouling.
Prior to learning not to swab between shots, I had fouling and misfires. Some wise fellow shooters of long experience suggested I use sloppy wet patches.I use Ballistol, liquid soap and window washer, 1/3rd each as the lube.
The rifle ,a 54 percussion Pedersoli Tryon shoots extremely well and I have not had any fouling problems since changing.
Clean up is flushing with tepid water/ window washer and and half a dozen patches and re oil with Ballistol. ten minutes work and is far cleaner and faster than old method.
In addition no one is grumpy at me cos I take so long to load and cycle through in a multi shot comp.
It works for me!
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The liquids are fine for target shooting, but not so hot for hunting in cold weather. Maybe not for hunting at all.
I use bear tallow for hunting and I like to do everything the same all the time. So, I use the same thing for target shooting even though it requires swabbing. If the liquids worked for everything i'd use it.
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Prior to learning not to swab between shots, I had fouling and misfires. Some wise fellow shooters of long experience suggested I use sloppy wet patches.I use Ballistol, liquid soap and window washer, 1/3rd each as the lube.
Bluesmoke, you know, I think this is good information (for me, at least). I was hesitant about using sloppy (drippy) wet patches because, well... nobody wants to taint their powder charge with wet lube, right?
But then I thought about it.... pushing a drippy wet patch tight into the muzzle, then rubbing that along 35-40 inches of bore... most of the lube will be left on the bore, as the wetness is drawn out of the cotton.
So not only is the patch considerably drier at the bottom of the barrel, you have a nice coat of lube on the bore. So each shot cleans the bore quite nicely. With less fouling stuck to the bore after each shot, you are pushing less fouling down the bore, so it accumulates more slowly at the breech.
I am going to do this next time out at the range.
And I'm still kicking around ideas for a jag that will pull the fouling out without pushing much of it down to the breech.
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The middle of the wet patch that sits on the powder will not be touching the bore on the way down.
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I use a sloppy wet thick patch and a .005" maximum bore undersized soft lead ball when I load. The patch is stretched tightly around the bottom of the ball, and that wet lube has to go somewhere. I think a good portion of it is transferred to the bore and the fouling left from the previous shot, but some for certain remains and is deposited onto/into the powder charge. So what?! You will never have a misfire because your powder was contaminated with water/oil even if you have to wait for fifteen minutes between shots. The important things here are first, consistency in the load and second, in the bore's condition.
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I can get the same accuracy and leave it loaded for a week. Which is my point. Target shooting and hunting are different. I can make my hunting method work for target shooting. I can't do it the other way around if I use a sloppy wet patch.
We don't all have the same goal.
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I can make my hunting method work for target shooting. I can't do it the other way around if I use a sloppy wet patch.
We don't all have the same goal.
I agree. It's bear or other animal grease for me all the time. And as I've said also, I prefer to load and shoot traditional guns in the traditional manner. If I thought I "needed" to load a piece of 18th Century technology in a modern fashion to improve performance, I'd just as soon shoot a modern gun.
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I've left a hunting load, loaded for 3 months, then hit centre, right on the bead at 100 meters when I finally touched it off. Neetsfoot oil works for me.
When I lived in Smithers before Marmots became protected, I used marmot oil for a hunting patch lube, as well as bear grease. Both worked very well. I also bought some mink oil from Track and that worked well too. Now, I have a choice, mink oil from Track or Neetsfoot oil.
Both oils seem to shoot about the same in my 14 bore - most everything does.
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I like mink oil too from TOW. I used it before the bear tallow. Both about the same in results. Bear tallow just sounds more mountain man. :D
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Looks like there are lots of ideas out there, we all have our favorite method. with the right PRB combo I have shot most of the day at rendezvous and only needed to replenish my own spit with a good cold beer, nothing technical at all about it.
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My gun is my buddy. I'd never spit on it. :D
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I've left rifles loaded for months after deer season closed; when fired later they all went off perfectly and were just as accurate as a newly loaded rifle.
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Which means you have a loaded gun in the house. I don't want that.
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I've left rifles loaded for months after deer season closed; when fired later they all went off perfectly and were just as accurate as a newly loaded rifle.
A loaded deer season rifle that would not go off was put on the wall in the town I live several yrs. ago and guess what, couple months later the 14 year olds were were pulling bull $#*& with it and the result was a dead 10 year old in the next room who was watching Sat. morning cartoons. May his soul rest in peace as his life was was stolen from him.
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Which means you have a loaded gun in the house. I don't want that.
OldMtnMan, little joe, you both would then likely be SHOCKED speechless if you only knew how many loaded guns live at my house and where they reside. My wife and I live alone and no urchins are ever at our place. True, we did childproof the house many years ago; but one still managed to get in ;D.
While I don't don't really need a gun to be dangerous, nothing wrong with being super dangerous. 8)
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I live in an apartment with strict rules. If I got caught with a loaded gun i'd get booted out. I'm in the habit of shooting out the load at the end of a hunting day anyway. So, no big deal for me.
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I consider a ML unloaded if the cap/prime is removed and the hammer down on a leather pad or toothpick plug. Several states have or had this or similar in their game regs. Nothing wrong w a totally empty ML either. Local laws, rules and common sense apply.
TC
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Here in ol' Va, as well in my native Ga, a ML is unloaded when there's NO PRIME and NO CAP. Been that way since my Neanderthal ancestors were hunting with spears.
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Same here in Colorado, but a flintlock has been known to fire with no prime in the pan.
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Same here in Colorado, but a flintlock has been known to fire with no prime in the pan.
I have demonstrated this. I had a smoothbore and on average 7 to 10 trys and it would go off. It only takes 1 spark in the right place.
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I've fired them with no prime, myself. But it can't happen unless there's a nut behind the trigger.
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You always have to imagine the worst. let's say you get hit by a truck and go to the happy hunting grounds. Your wife sells the guns. the buyer takes the gun(s) home and has kids. You can imagine the rest.
It's always best to keep guns unloaded. You never know what can happen in the future.
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I agree OldMtnMan... I kept a flintlock loaded overnight once this season, knowing I was going back out the next day. Of course, the pan was emptied out and a toothpick inserted in the vent hole. I probably won't do it again, though, as I believe the powder may damage the metal inside the bore at the breech, if left loaded often.
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I have a loaded one in the shop now soaking to soften things up, About 28 ga. and looks like has been loaded for 100 yrs or more as it was a family hand me down. The owners grampa said said it was his great grandads and the old folks who have passed on could never recall it being shot. I do not know what is in there but something is in there. There was a case several yrs. ago where they were trying to un breech a bbl mounted in a vice, applying heat to the breech and the son walked in front of it as it discharged taking his life. We cannot be too careful.
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I agree OldMtnMan... I kept a flintlock loaded overnight once this season, knowing I was going back out the next day. Of course, the pan was emptied out and a toothpick inserted in the vent hole. I probably won't do it again, though, as I believe the powder may damage the metal inside the bore at the breech, if left loaded often.
Bones, the powder sitting in the breech will not harm the bore by itself.
If there is fouling in the bore THAT will harm the bore.
Now, if a water based lube is used on the patch - THAT will harm the bore.
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Black powder is hygroscopic. It attracts moisture. Moisture = rust.
I don't understand. We buy BP by the case to save money. We cast balls to save money. We go to fabric stores to buy cheap patching material. A PRB load is very cheap to shoot and some leave the gun loaded for long periods. Shoot it out and clean the gun.
I couldn't sleep at night if my gun was loaded or even worse.......not cleaned.
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Black powder itself is not hygroscopic enough to cause rust. Old guns have been found loaded and after more than a century later the powder was still good and the gun free of rust in the breech. BP fouling, however, IS hygroscopic and will cause rust in even a modestly humid climate. Those in a dry climate will find they can safely wait days to clean and still not experience rust.
I lived in Georgia (USA) for 62 years. The climate is often HOT and HUMID in the extreme. Guns I've left loaded for months exhibited absolutely no rust; of course they were clean when loaded. As long as the gun is clean of fouling to begin with, it will not rust from unburned powder given normal storage. I once kept a c&b revolver loaded for nearly a year out on a table next to a window. Eventually I fired it and it was still pristine.
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You say it's not hygroscopic enough to cause rust. Which means you're admitting it is hygroscopic. Even if it's a little hygroscopic it will attract moisture by the very definition of the word. We're talking about powder that's in contact with air and it's on bare metal.
Your experience is only your experience. Not a 100% final answer.
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Wow. Decades of partially used metal cans owned by ? How ndreds or even thousands and they rusted thru ? Oh they didn't. Ok.
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Nice sarcasm.
From a chemist.
"A problem associated with black powder is its hygroscopicity. Black powder absorbs about 1.5 weight percent moisture under 75 percent relative humidity at a temperature of 21.1.degrees C. (70.degrees F.) over a period of 24 hours. If black powder picks up sufficient moisture, there is a possibility that the black powder will not burn as fast. High relative humidity may cause erratic behavior. Water may cause the potassium nitrate to migrate out of the black powder and cause corrosion of metallic parts."
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Lots of "ifs and mays". It may happen to me and if it does , well ok. Been leaving hunting loads for week plus from AR and LA to TX, NM and CO for 40 years. Have 2 right now.
TC
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Good for you. I've been shooting mine out for almost 50 years.
I could care less what anybody else does. I'm simply pointing out that it's possible to rust. I also think it's dangerous to leave guns loaded. Nobody can predict what happens to a gun in the future.
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Most everything, gun stock wood for example, will admit a bit of moisture. You're using a "play on words" about it. I can assure you that I've never - and this goes for my friends who keep guns loaded, often in hot, humid weather - had BP "soak up moisture". Even when I've happened to leave a container of BP open and exposed there was NO moisture detected. I've hunted in rain and fog and NEVER had to change the prime; assuming the gun hasn't been fired and I kept the lock under my arm. Do as you see fit and good luck.
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There's other reasons to not keep a gun loaded and they were pointed out in this thread. That should really be the bottom line and forgetting the moisture part.
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So, where are the moderators that are so quick on the trigger to lock a subject when it has only gone a page or less? This thread is starting to look like "War and Peace". And, it's never going to end. Those that swab after every shot aren't going to stop, and those that don't aren't going to start, end of story.
Hungry Horse
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So, where are the moderators that are so quick on the trigger to lock a subject when it has only gone a page or less? This thread is starting to look like "War and Peace". And, it's never going to end. Those that swab after every shot aren't going to stop, and those that don't aren't going to start, end of story.
Hungry Horse
Here I am Mr Horse, let me know where I missed seeing that ALR rules have been broken and I will gladly take care of the problem, otherwise carry-on.
Dennis
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Funny about all of this is:
"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still".
However, for all of those who will not attempt trying without wiping, there are a few, who are very happy they tried - THOSE people we are so happy to have reached and are indeed, the reason we endeavour to persevere.
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I find being stubborn more fun. :)
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I have no problem with those who wipe between shots, although personally, I've never found the need to do so.
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Which means you have a loaded gun in the house. I don't want that.
OldMtnMan, little joe, you both would then likely be SHOCKED speechless if you only knew how many loaded guns live at my house and where they reside. My wife and I live alone and no urchins are ever at our place. True, we did childproof the house many years ago; but one still managed to get in ;D.
While I don't don't really need a gun to be dangerous, nothing wrong with being super dangerous. 8)
I have alot of loaded guns in the house and in the shop. What good is a gun that isn't loaded? We have a rule here, always assume a gun is loaded.
I have raised 4 kids with loaded guns all over the house. Never has been an issue. If you don't make guns mysterious scary objects kids could care less about them.
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Which means you have a loaded gun in the house. I don't want that.
OldMtnMan, little joe, you both would then likely be SHOCKED speechless if you only knew how many loaded guns live at my house and where they reside. My wife and I live alone and no urchins are ever at our place. True, we did childproof the house many years ago; but one still managed to get in ;D.
While I don't don't really need a gun to be dangerous, nothing wrong with being super dangerous. 8)
I have alot of loaded guns in the house and in the shop. What good is a gun that isn't loaded? We have a rule here, always assume a gun is loaded.
I have raised 4 kids with loaded guns all over the house. Never has been an issue. If you don't make guns mysterious scary objects kids could care less about them.
Elmer Keith invited 2 friends of mine in to his house. They drove from Smithers, B.C. to Salmon Idaho, just to visit him. Elmer said - don't touch any of the guns, they are all loaded - his gun collection sold last year at Holt's Auction House, for 16 million US Dollars total. bob asked him- why loaded - Elmer replied" what good is an unloaded gun?" Then he said " people only have accidents with unloaded guns. If they are loaded, no one touches them unless they are needed. If needed, they need to be loaded".
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Not sure Elmer shot sidelocks? A CF gun is not nearly as dangerous. It's very easy to see when they're loaded. A sidelock is different. If you aren't experienced you can't tell if it is or isn't loaded. A flintlock can be fired without powder in the pan. It's not hard to see how accidents can happen.
You feel safe because you have control of your guns. What if all of a sudden you weren't around? Do you really want to leave loaded guns for others to handle who may know nothing about sidelocks?