AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: mbriggs on March 17, 2016, 06:55:49 PM
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In 2008, I was invited to join the American Society of Arms Collectors. At my first meeting I was introduced to Mr. George Norton. George said that he had a large collection for Southern Kentucky rifles. In 2010, I traveled to Salt Lake City to look at his collection and to photograph his North Carolina rifles. This was the first time I saw this rifle. There were many features on this rifle that indicated it was from the Mecklenburg School. George believed that rifle was signed "C. G.".
A few years later I learned that George had passed away and his collection was to be auctioned. I went to the auction and purchased this rifle. I still do not know who made the rifle.
I have not been able to find anyone with the initials "C. G." who lived in or near Mecklenburg County that worked as a gunsmith.
Here are the photos.
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Sine-wave engraving with uniform tines is a Mecklenburg School feature
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Most Mecklenburg School rifles have a hunter's star on the cheek rest
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Photo of the patchbox
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Here is the patchbox when viewed from upside down
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Here is the trigger guard with sine-wave engraving
Thank you for taking the time to look at this. All comments are welcome. Please let me know if you can cipher what initials are engraved on the patchbox lid.
Michael Briggs
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If you can't find a smith in or near Mecklenburg then why could it not be a smith who had one in his shop for repair or saw one and decided to copy it from somewhere else in NC or another state for that matter? I feel a lot of schools had hunter stars on the cheek rest side of a rifle. People did what they did.
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The initial s look like Gg to my old eyes. Also there is a t m under the cheek piece. Very nice rifle .
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Please share what features relate to Mecklenburg for my educational benefit. I never get to see these rifles up here in PA.
That rifle has a killer piece of wood.
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If you can't find a smith in or near Mecklenburg then why could it not be a smith who had one in his shop for repair or saw one and decided to copy it from somewhere else in NC or another state for that matter? I feel a lot of schools had hunter stars on the cheek rest side of a rifle. People did what they did.
I don't think there was much of that sort of thing going on......Modern day thinking.
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Interesting it is dated in the same place as the "WB" rifle. Box initials appear as "Cg" to me as well.
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That is a script CG for certain, but that doesn't mean that was the maker's initials. It could have been an owner.
It definitely has a beautiful stock and attractive patch box.
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Michael,
Nice looking rifle.
Is there a chance the patch box is a donor from another rifle? The reason I ask is how the bottom wing does not fit up against the buttplate. Maybe the same for the side plate, it appears to have been extended to work with the lock on this rifle.
Dennis
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I may be all wet (probably am) but the first thing I thought was ZG. I could see the signer making the z in the center first and finishing with the semi-circular line to the left. Like a script z.
-Ron
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That is a script CG for certain, but that doesn't mean that was the maker's initials. It could have been an owner.
It definitely has a beautiful stock and attractive patch box.
Rifles in this area will many times have the maker's initials on the box lid.
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Not 100% certain the initials are "CG", but it looks that way. I do know that it is a very nice looking rifle... I especially like the sideplate. After reading Dennis's comment and looking at the pics again, I am also left wondering if the the patchbox and sideplate weren't from another stock originally.
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If you can't find a smith in or near Mecklenburg then why could it not be a smith who had one in his shop for repair or saw one and decided to copy it from somewhere else in NC or another state for that matter? I feel a lot of schools had hunter stars on the cheek rest side of a rifle. People did what they did.
I don't think there was much of that sort of thing going on......Modern day thinking.
I feel that we will never know 100% what craftsman were thinking or doing and that goes for everything in the decorative arts world. They probably were all looking for that edge over the competitor and if they saw something different they could have copied it.
Also, I didn't notice it at first but after being brought up I think that patch box could have been on another rifle as well to begin with.
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Mike,
I'm not sure that the initials on the lid are the maker's initials either. Compare the features of this rifle to other makers here and see if anything comes up.
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Mike,
I'm not sure that the initials on the lid are the maker's initials either. Compare the features of this rifle to other makers here and see if anything comes up.
I am under the assumption that it was common for the builder to initial the PB lid in this school. I'll look into this.
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Mike,
I'm not sure that the initials on the lid are the maker's initials either. Compare the features of this rifle to other makers here and see if anything comes up.
I am under the assumption that it was common for the builder to initial the PB lid in this school. I'll look into this.
Update, I just looked into and I'm right of course. Like "The Donald", I have a good brain...... ::)
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If you can't find a smith in or near Mecklenburg then why could it not be a smith who had one in his shop for repair or saw one and decided to copy it from somewhere else in NC or another state for that matter? I feel a lot of schools had hunter stars on the cheek rest side of a rifle. People did what they did.
I don't think there was much of that sort of thing going on......Modern day thinking.
I feel that we will never know 100% what craftsman were thinking or doing and that goes for
everything in the decorative arts world. They probably were all looking for that edge over the competitor and if they saw something different they could have copied it.
Also, I didn't notice it at first but after being brought up I think that patch box could have been on another rifle as well to begin with.
I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about......but, who cares what I think.... ::)
If there is no documentation to back up where the rifle supposedly came from then how are you 100% sure it is from that area? Do you really know what was going on 150+ years ago?
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I don't claim any authority here, but I would like to point out a couple of minor details that might aid in the overall "discovery" on this gun. First, it is interesting that the engraver used upper and lower case for the two letters/initials. As a student of the companion art of Southern silversmithing and engraving, this is odd, and perplexing. Are we in agreement this actually reads "C g" and not "G g"? I can't find a period font that makes a "C" in that manner with such a pronounced middle/inner serif instead of a dividing one to the left. I may be totally off, but I tend to read this as a capital "G".
Also, is it possible that the artisan who made the stock signed his work, or might this be the initials of the gunsmith, or owner? I don't see that anyone has yet referenced this clue. The placement, to me, indicates one of the makers.
It's good to see an exchange of ideas on such a gun. I think I might speak for some others in hoping to see a fuller "checklist" of documented Mecklenburg gun styles, motifs, and construction elements to better make comparison before assuming this is the only contender for place of manufacture. Major trade arteries carried goods, craftsmen, and trends a long way, even in 1814. It is very safe and reasonable to consider first a broader region for origin. That doesn't exclude Mecklenburg County, but it makes us realize the potential for a gun to travel to Virginia, South Carolina, Tennessee or Georgia and, if any component was altered or repaired later in the 19th century (which the possibility of is NOT an attack upon the integrity of the gun), it could be influenced by a gunsmith and styles from another county or state.
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I appreciate all of your comments, but disagree with some of them. I do realize that most of you do not collect or study North Carolina Longrifles and that is a reason for your comments or statements.
The Mecklenburg School is one of nine in this state and has the least number of examples known to survive. I have found and photographed 19 rifles and one pistol from this school in museums and private collections.
Seventeen of those rifles have brass patch boxes. Sixteen of those rifles are signed by the maker on the patch box lid. The other rifle is unsigned. If a Mecklenburg or Rowan School rifle is signed it will usually be signed on the box lid. Twelve of these rifles have S scroll finials in the style of Jacob Sell in PA. The gulloche side plates on the patcbox is a strong North Carolina feature. No other N.C. school used S scroll finials, nor did any known school in South Carolina or Virginia. The sine-wave engraving with uniform tines
on the patch box lid, trigger guard, and side plate are strong Mecklenburg features along with the mirrored engraving on the lid and base of the finial.
My goal in posting this rifle was to see if anyone had a better idea.what the initials were on the lid.
I have. never met Mike Brooks but he was correct with his comments and his observations should be respected.
My new book on the Mecklenburg School will be available this summer. I will be giving a program on this school and the Rowan school at MESDA on September 17th along with Wayne Elliott and Mel Hankla
Michael Briggs
Michael
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Michael, I'm still not fully convinced that reads "C g" (read on, I'm not done) but, if it does, have you ruled out Christian Goodnight? You also need to look at Christian Grigory ([sic] Gregory?) and Christopher Goodman, along with Charles Gillaspie.
I personally would want to know if this was made by a member of the Gillaspie family of rifle makers. While I have suggested a "Gg" reading, I also went ahead and tried to rationalize WHY the odd variance in the case of the letters was utilized. I concluded that IF the C & G were going to look TOO similar in the engraved script, being virtually indecipherable, the artisan might have chosen to use the lower case "g". Keep in mind, the capital "G" was derived from the "C", and at this period many literate persons barely made any distinction between the upper & lower case "G" but for size anyway. After all that review and consideration, I guess I'm now more inclined to accept a "C g" reading. Sorry to drone, but maybe that thought process will offer confirmation.
And have you investigated the other initials? Thanks for delineating the major characteristics of the Mecklenburg County, NC School of long rifles. I think that clarified some confusion.
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If you can't find a smith in or near Mecklenburg then why could it not be a smith who had one in his shop for repair or saw one and decided to copy it from somewhere else in NC or another state for that matter? I feel a lot of schools had hunter stars on the cheek rest side of a rifle. People did what they did.
I don't think there was much of that sort of thing going on......Modern day thinking.
I feel that we will never know 100% what craftsman were thinking or doing and that goes for
everything in the decorative arts world. They probably were all looking for that edge over the competitor and if they saw something different they could have copied it.
Also, I didn't notice it at first but after being brought up I think that patch box could have been on another rifle as well to begin with.
I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about......but, who cares what I think.... ::)
If there is no documentation to back up where the rifle supposedly came from then how are you 100% sure it is from that area? Do you really know what was going on 150+ years ago?
If you study guns from this area it's obvious where it's from. You will soon discover I know everything....even what people thought 150 years ago.
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I enjoy reading all of your posts. The patch box fit is an issue that I would have expected more comment on. Has anyone ever seen a fit like that on a rifle that they believed the patch box was original to the build...whether it was from a previous rifle or not? I know that with my limited knowledge...if I ever saw that on a rifle I was looking at...I would just assume it was a later addition.
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Well, having made these guns for 36 years I can see where that could just be a screw up on the makers part. Been there, done that.... :P
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I understand how the fit of the patch box would make one take a closer look at the whole rifle.
BUT! This is not the first rifle from this school Michael has seen. This is his area of expertise . I would guess he has looked it over . Then looked it over several more times.
Gunsmiths do make mistakes. I had an Armstrong rifle years ago where he had made the outline for an inlay then decided it was in the wrong place . He moved it about an inch foreword on the forestock. I found it under high magnification . I have a Kuntz with the butt plate cut out for side plates . There are none. He used it anyway . I don't think a guy would spend all that time making a patch box out of costly materials and then pitch it in the trash because the fit was a little off.
I hope the maker can be identified . It's a great piece of history.
Just a few of my thoughts on this .
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Michael,
Great rifle. Have you considered ZG? Obviously that patch box finial was used by several makers in that area. Do you think some makers were working together? Or is it a case of local tastes and the ability to fashion a box similar to another because that was popular. I used to have an Isaac Thompson rifle with a similar box finial but the rest of it was different. Anyway, thanks for the rifle it's a great one!
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Thanks for sharing the features of theMecklenburg school with us. Knowing nothing about them other than what I seem to recall from looking at Bill IVeys book, it's nice to learn something new. It's a beautiful rifle and I hope you solve your Mystery
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[jdm] Thanks for the positive comments. I have taken the rifle apart and do believe the stock is original to it. This is the only rifle known to survive from this unidentified gunsmith. He was a very good engraver, not as good as some of the others in wood work or metal work. It is a very attractive rifle to me.
[wildcatter] I had not considered ZG, but I see your point. I will send those initials to my two researchers who are helping me with Mecklenburg. As to if several makers were working together, yes they had to be. We know that Isaac Price was the first gunsmith and took in four apprentices. Three of those apprentices along with Isaac Price have no rifles that are known to survive. Zenas Alexander took in three apprentices. There is one Zenas Alexander rifle and one rifle from his apprentice James McKee, but it is an Appalachian school rifle. There are two William Black and two Samuel Black rifles. They show many of the same features, they are possible kin, but there were multiple people named William and Samuel Black living in the county at the same time, it is hard to figure out who were the gunsmiths. There are at least five signed Isaac Thompson rifles, and you mentioned you used to own a sixth. His rifles use the side plate of Isaac Price, but he did not apprentice under him. Christian Arney has two rifles that survive, both have features consistent with Isaac Thompson. The first man to apprentice under Isaac Price was Abraham Henderson of Gaston County. He was born in 1762 and became an apprentice in 1776. There are no rifles signed by him known to survive, but there are two Mecklenburg rifles that are signed L H that survive and one early carved rifle signed I H. I believe both are from men who were relatives of Henderson, but that is just a guess. It is all a fun mystery. I can guess at names, but expect to be proven wrong in time. The only person who never makes a mistake is the person that does not do anything.
[shreckmeister] Thanks for your comments. Bill Ivey is a very close personal friend of mine. It was Bill that discovered this school in the 1980's, and who taught me the features to look for in identifying rifles from this school.
I do not expect my new book to be the be all or end all on this subject. It will contain detailed color photos of all 19 known rifles from this school including many that have never been published before and all information and source material on newly found gunsmiths and their shop locations.
Michael Briggs
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Michael, that is not a Z. I offered a few suggestions, plus a little discussion of the script, in a prior post. All the suggestions I listed are/were Mecklenberg County residents of the period. Likely others to exclude, but those were the ones I pulled quickly for you.
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Just for the record, I see a possibility of a stylized "Ch G". The date on the side plate is also found on Thomas Simpson (Tn, possibly via VA and NC) and, I believe, some Virginia rifles, which incidentally have pointed or stylized finials on the sideplate. C[h]G could be the owners name(initials), as on the Gasper mansker rifle. Is the buttplate with faceted return and down turned point at toe typical of Mecklenburg?
The buttplate and patchbox fit beg the question as to whether there might have been damage or alteration.
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That's great news!! Another book about these terrific rifles. And its about time!!!