AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Lucky R A on March 24, 2009, 01:37:20 AM
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I know how excited some guys get seeing Don Getzs' next barn gun, so I thought I would post a few photos of one probably made by one of Don's Revolutionary War ancestors. I ran across this gun at the Bushy Run show last year. The owner is a friend and a KRA member. The gun possibly dates to the period of the Revolution and fits all the criteria for a "Barn Gun." This is, as they say, "The Real Deal." The wood in the stock was not maple and seemed quite heavy and dense; it sure stood the test of time. Ron
(https://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/luckenbill/134646.jpg)
(https://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/luckenbill/134703.jpg)
(https://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/luckenbill/134713.jpg)
(https://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/luckenbill/134738.jpg)
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Nice, octagon to round smoothbore?
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Nice THIN lock moldings!
Also that nice long extension of the wrist into the butt area!
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Is it possible that the stock is of beechwood? There is a hint of that type of grain in the wrist. I wonder if that lock is a reused item. Sure is a neat rifle, thanks for the phptos.
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That is a nice, honest piece. IMHO, I like the plain pieces almost as much as the carved ones. Though plain as homemade soap, this gun does appear to illustrate the workmanship of a knowledgeable maker.
The trikker guard appears to be made of brass strap bent into the shape of a guard. Is it possible to get a better photo of the guard...and maybe the rod entry? For that matter, would it be possible to get a photo of the fore stock?
Sorry for all of the questions, but I can't get enough of these gun photos.
Thanks for posting the photos.
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Thanks for sharing! Is that an octagon to round barrel or all octagon?
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Love it. Someone would do well building something like this.
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That lock would have to be completely hand made wouldn't it? There is a blacksmith-made look to it. The guard reminds me of an early trade gun style--maybe English . And the butt stock is pretty neat, to me there's a lot of early fowler there. Any ideas as to barrel length and caliber? This rifle would definitely be worthy of reproducing as closely as possible.
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I thought some of you would recognize this as a darn nice example of the elusive "workingman's gun" that usually did not survive. I have no doubt that the barrel and some other parts were scrounged, as it was obviously built for someone on a budget. Goex4fg may be right on the stock being Beech or even Elm or Sycamore It has some of those rays and grain structure in the photo of the wrist. The style of the butt stock to me seems to suggest more French influence. In reality it is quite close to what evolved into the classic Bucks Co. profile.
I may have an opportunity to get some more photos within the week and will check out the barrel length etc.
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What a great old gun. It's amazing it has survived in such good condition. I know little about these guns and really appreciate the chance to see the pictures.
Ken
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That lock would have to be completely hand made wouldn't it? There is a blacksmith-made look to it. The guard reminds me of an early trade gun style--maybe English . And the butt stock is pretty neat, to me there's a lot of early fowler there. Any ideas as to barrel length and caliber? This rifle would definitely be worthy of reproducing as closely as possible.
There are others here who are more knowledgeable than me, but I would guess that is an import lock. If you wanted to reproduce it the Davis Colonial lock would be quite close. That's a neat gun. I'd like to see some specs on the barrel.
Sean
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Note the “buttplate” is rounded to prevent the wood chipping as easy either he was so trained or had made enough of them to see this as a potential weak point. In any event he took the time to do it right. I bet it was purpose made this way. The stocking appears to have been done my someone who knew his business.
Lock is a big old import fowler/musket lock.
Are those proof marks on the barrel breech or just extra “idiot marks” as some call them?
Very nice piece in any event and one that belongs in a book with full description.
But like its plain brothers and cousins is largely ignored by the collectors and “experts” of the past and even today.
Its a rare survivor, many, many fell to WW-I scrap drives, one collector I knew as a kid told me he "all I had left was the stock off one of my good guns" when he returned from the war. Did not ask how many...
Dan
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Nice THIN lock moldings!
Also that nice long extension of the wrist into the butt area!
Holy Kats, JW now I have to scratch some more stock away around that lock on my smoothy in progress.
Man if that ol gun could talk kinda like my ol 34 Plymouth ::) ;D
That ol gun is surely a survivor and the photos much appreciated !
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Wow, really nice piece. That wrist really does extend way back into the butt stock. Nice pics, Thanks for posting. I too would like to see more of not only this one but others as well.
Tim C.
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Beautiful old gun. I agree with Roger - if only it could talk what a story it could tell.
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Wicked Neat gun.
Frenchie or Brown Bess wrist going waaay back into the butt. Germanic lock, no bridle on the frizzen, hidden frizzen spring screw, and what looks like a separate octagonal pan, much worn. Barrel looks like an import, with proof marks.
I would place this 1770 to 1800, late only because the parts could have been recycled several times.
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French musket lock. I will presume it is a hastily-produced gun made during the Revolution. ;)
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Chris, I think you may be on to something. Is there a record of the barrel configuration and length? Those proof marks that are visible but unreadable in the last photo are very interesting and would tell us a lot about this gun's history.
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It may or may not have provision for a bayonet, but if I were to bet, I'd say that it did.
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I pretty much agree with Chris here.This is NOT a barn gun but before proceeding I would as per JD like to see the guard finials as well as the forestock. I would also like to know the barrel length and caliber.This gun appears to be a composite musket possibly from the 1775-1780 period.The butt architecture suggests production brfore the 1777 influx of French guns rendering Brown Bess architecture unpatriotic.The wood appears to be cherrywood which suggests Connecticut manufacture. Chris felt that the lock was French and and it does have French styling but the nose of the lock is longer than we normally see in a French lock and additionally the lock is a bit cruder than we would expect to see in a French lock.I submit that the lock is an American creation copying a French lock.See "Flintlock Fowlers" by Tom Grinslade PP.54and 75 for two similar American made locks on New England fowlers.I feel that this gun is an American made composite musket made during the early days of the Revolution.
As always I welcome responsible opposing comments.
Tom Patton
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One other point I forgot to mention is that the guard bow strongly suggests French manufacture and I would know better after seeing the guard finials. Like Chris I would be surprised if this gun was not constructed for the installation of a bayonet.
Tom Patton
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Well , since all the experts have pontificated.... ;) it's my turn! ;D I'll say Dutch lock. The trigger guard is made from sheet brass like a carolina gun. The barrel is English. I'd say it was built in it's present form in the New England area probably Rev war time....but possibly earlier, but not much earlier.
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Mike-
I'm no expert, but that trigger guard does look like it came from an early English/Carolina trade gun. The lock has a "made in America" look to it, especially in the shape of the cock. The stock could be cherry, but cherry doesn't usually feel heavy--certainly compared to maple. But it does strike me as odd that beechwood would be found on an American gun of this period. And cherry would make sense if the gun is a New England piece. Wish there was a few more photos of this rifle.
Dan
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Well fellows, this has been fun, and i have a bit more information to throw out after corresponding with the owner. Here is what he wrote concerning the features. "It has a 49" barrel, about 65 caliber. The barrel is English (three stage) and the barrel makers mark (Blackmore) could be as early as 1742, so the gun could be F & I war period. The stock is cherry, I have been told. there are two ramrod pipes, that are small and have that copper look to them as many did. The triggerguard is from the 1680-1710 period (according to Bob Speelman) and the only one that he has seen actually on a gun and not excavated. It is screwed in the front (probably originally for an upwardtang bolt) and nailed at the back. Except for the ramrod pipes (American) all parts are undoubtedly from earlier guns. It is cut for a bayonet and probably saw Rev War service. Also the trigggerguard is "spooned" out with is an early feature. The lock is 7" long." I am aware that this is a fowler musket rather than a barn gun. I just thought i would have a little fun and let the younger guys see that the concept of building a gun w/o butt plate, sideplate, entry thimble etc.(features of a "barn gun") goes way back
I will post some more photos as soon as I can. Keep speculating.
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Ron, Thanks for sharing the pictures and the followup information. That is one nice looking gun. It stands on its own merit. Can't wait to see more pictures.
DMR
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As to the "crudity" of the lock: This lock is obviously well-worn and well-rusted. Don't confuse that with "crudity". It may have been a decent lock 230 years ago.
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I am happy to hear what Lucky had to say here.I still think the lock is probably American though with French styling.I have a composite musket in Cherry and likely from Conn. with similar architecture. My gun has a 41" barrel and is 0.65 +/- caliber. The lock is very similar and my gun has an English guard,side plate,and butt piece. Neuman refers to guns of this type as "Fusil Muskets"I would date both of them about 1770-1780 or maybe possibly a little earlier.I think English Brown Bess architecture with the hand rail butt was on its way out about 1777-1778 with the arrival of the French muskets procured by Franklin in Paris.I would still very much like to see the guiard since I still feel that it is probably French. I respect the opinion of my colleague Roberet Speelman and still want to see the finials on the guard.
Tom Patton
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I think collectors very much appreciate guns like this. They are, this early, incredibly rare. A wonderfull piece. An important piece. There are simply many things that just don't come to the fore.
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Well said, Bill. I have always liked these composite guns which used to be plentiful.For some time I have been concentrating on guns of this type which, as my old friend Earl Lanning once said, "were here when it all started"As most of us did I started with an admiration for the Golden Age guns but somwhow I got sidetracked by the guns which saw more than just hunting and target shooting. I am at the present time restoring a relic Fusil de chasse and Yes,I will be stetching the barrel and forestock and installing a Rifle Shoppe lock, sideplate, thimbles,and some wood around the tang.As Wes White once said , this is the kind of gun that one can close his eyes and smell the Indian campfires.I can do no less.
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Bill-when I was a kid growing up in New England, pieces similar to this one were still around, often hung over someone's fireplace. Usually the history wasn't known, but the guns were of New England style and often mistakenly referred to as Committee of Safety muskets. I don't recall ever seeing one without a butt plate before, though.
The pan is interesting. It seems to be more finely worked and proportioned than the cock is. Sort of like it belongs to another lock. And the feather spring with its screw coming from the inside seems unusual for this style lock, too. I'm not sure, but I think Leonard Day has a similar lock. Maybe I'll take ride over there tomorrow and check it out. I really do like this gun!
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I'm glad to see my friend, Tom Patton, posting once again, especially on this topic. ;D These 'parts guns' kind of grow on you. Over time, you gain an appreciation for the builders that took these various parts and restocked them. Most of them exhibit really good architecture and were far from just thrown together. I'm also not surprised that it is what some have termed a 'dual-purpose' firearm. It is also obvious, that this piece has been pretty well cared for, over time. I wouldn't mind having that one in my meager collection.
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I think Chris may have it right.
One of my first thoughts was a poor mans militia arm. We really need better photos & description.
It is a plain but serviceable arm no matter its original purpose.
Dan
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That is really a great old gun. ;)
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Sorry for bringing back an old post (before I found this forum) but was doing a search and found this. After reading I wish I could see the pictures that have been lost. Lucky R A, would you happen to still have these pictures available to re-post.
Thanks
AsMs
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I resurrected the pix.
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Thanks Rich
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Wish there were photos of the front half
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I just have chime in and say how beautiful that gun is. It is slim and graceful and built to last; which it did. Just goes to prove that lots of hardware and decoration are not required to make a beautiful gun. Thanks for sharing.
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I too would really like to see some more detailed photos of this nice old piece.