AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Dennis Glazener on April 25, 2016, 11:01:21 PM
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I would like to hear others opinion regarding the restored Davy Crockett's first rifle that is in the East TN History Museum in downtown Knoxville. Bluelight and I left home early enough to make a stop by there on the way to Wayne's show. The museum itself was interesting but we were there to see the John Sevier pistol and Crockett's first rifle.
I will admit that I did a double take after reading the information furnished, everything indicated that the rifle was the ORIGINAL rifle. It appears to have just been completed by one of today's top contemporary builders. To be honest I was very disappointed since it appeared to me the museum was trying to pass off a contemporary as the original rifle. In fact I made a point of telling one of the museum employee's that I thought they were doing a disservice to history by not identifying it as a copy and not the ORIGINAL.
When I got to the TN show I discussed the rifle with Randall Pierce (TN rifle student and TN resident). Randall told me that the rifle IS the original but was restored by Houston Harrison at the request of the family that has owned it since Crockett traded the rifle for a horse (I believe I am correct on this).
All I can say is WOW, Houston certainly did an outstanding job. Its a fabulous piece of work. I believe I heard its a York PA style rifle but I am not familiar with the style.
Dennis
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I am curious as to what documentation any one has to prove that this rifle is Davy's FIRST rifle. Did he learn to shoot with this rifle? Was this rifle given to him or was it the first rifle that Davy purchased himself? Rather nice starting rifle if it is in fact his first.
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The museum sign says:
"Betsy" David Crockett's first rifle, c 1803
Loaned by Joe and Art Swann
In 1803, 17 year old David Crockett bought his first gun a Pennsylvania rifle that he described as "a capital one". Three years later, he fell in love with a local girl, Crockett traded it, along with labor, to neighbor John Canaday for a "courting horse". Canaday later sold the gun to James McCuistion, who's descendants still own it.
Here is a link to info on McCistion that dates his ownership of the rifle to "before 1806". http://gmccuistion.com/john1855/b12050.htm
And here is a little more on the subject:
https://www.facebook.com/196361147617/photos/a.196562667617.130246.196361147617/10153171360207618/
I will say that the dark photos shown of the rifle look different than the actual rifle we saw. I was amazed at how light colored the rifle appeared to be, no where near as dark as those shown on those links.
Dennis
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Thanks for that Dennis. I have read that someplace before myself but was still curious as to how a 17 year old could afford such a capitol rifle, maybe he bought the rifle used from someone other than the original rifles maker.
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Longevity was pretty short in a lot of cases back then. Estate sales from that time period show some real deals. Also seventeen years of age was considered full grown at that time. A fine rifle would not be considered a luxury back then, if there was any way to acquire one. He was always a talker, and could talk a bear to death. So it isn't impossible for this to be his first rifle.
I have seen this gun and believe it to be very much over restored. It might not have looked this good when he owned it.
Hungry Horse
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Dennis - This rifle was displayed at the Norris show a few years. Here are a few pictures that I took. Sorry that the quality isn't any better than it is.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi281.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk212%2Fejgibby1%2FCIMG1899_zpsfgflarre.jpg&hash=0d08f6e8d2a37958eee905ac3b64c6c423d1399f)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi281.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk212%2Fejgibby1%2FCIMG1898_zpse7jko2y8.jpg&hash=412955e6bb7bcd5472288acfed8fefee94f3a23d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi281.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk212%2Fejgibby1%2FCIMG1900_zpsjm4g4lgs.jpg&hash=03f63402716a078576d4cc9773ee860ab3915b85)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi281.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk212%2Fejgibby1%2FCIMG1897_zpspda0lu87.jpg&hash=6c62042f83d1b84489ec7f88bf8c08ec8a2ac190)
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Somewhere I have Crockett's autobiography written around 1900. I remember the mention of that rifle in the book. It's stashed away somewhere, but IF I can find it, I'll check the reference.
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..... Crockett's autobiography written around 1900.....
That would be a neat trick since Crockett died at the Alamo in 1836.
-Ron
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“In a museum in Havana, there are two skulls of Christopher Columbus, one when he was a boy and one when he was a man”
Mark Twain
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..... Crockett's autobiography written around 1900.....
That would be a neat trick since Crockett died at the Alamo in 1836.
-Ron
Make that published instead of written. Better?
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John Bivins left his collection through the years to The Winterthur Library. In the collection there are ten drawings by Houston Harrison and John Bivens that are available at request from the Library two of these drawing are titled "Davy Crockett’s first rifle (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison);"
The Winterthur Library
John Bivens Collection of Houston Harrison’s
Houston Harrison’s Drawings
Folder 3: drawings of rifles
.8a German flintlock rifle (full size drawing; 4 rifles with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison, 1988, no. 5);
.8b Pre-Revolutionary longrifle, Eastern Pennsylvania region (full size drawing; 4 rifles with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison, 1988, no. 4);
.8c German flintlock rifle (with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison);
.8d Jacob Dickert rifle (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison)
.8e Davy Crockett’s first rifle (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison);
.8f Davy Crockett’s first rifle (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison, 1988, no. 3);
.8g Tennessee iron mounted rifle, Zacharia Luster, Washington County (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison, no. 14);
.8h Joseph Fruwirth, In Wienn, 1722-1797 (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison, 1991, no. 12);
.8i Jos. Fruwirth, In Wienn, 1722-1797 (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison, 1991, no. 4);
.8j Edward Marshall rifle, Bucks Co., Penn. (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison, 1991, no. 11) [see also .10]
(other rifle drawings are in box of rolled drawings, 07x2.9-.10)
http://findingaid.winterthur.org/html/HTML_Finding_Aids/col0828.htm (http://findingaid.winterthur.org/html/HTML_Finding_Aids/col0828.htm)
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.8e Davy Crockett’s first rifle ;
.8f Davy Crockett’s first rifle
Ha! QED.
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.8e Davy Crockett’s first rifle ;
.8f Davy Crockett’s first rifle
Ha! QED.
No ... note that these are two drawings of a rifle (not drawings of two different rifles called his "first").
Scott
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Yes - I did not make that clear. These are really good drawings. I have thought about ordering some of the photographs as well.
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The Tenn. State Museum had a Crockett rifle and knife on display when I was a student at Vanderbilt in the early 60's. It might still be there. The Franklin Co Tenn. archives have many of Crockett's papers and other things. He lived for a very short time in Lincoln Co and then moved to the Beans Creek area in Franklin Co. His first wife Polly is buried there in a small country cemetery. My maternal great great grandfather had a homestead near by.
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Dennis - This rifle was displayed at the Norris show a few years. Here are a few pictures that I took. Sorry that the quality isn't any better than it is.
Eric,
That may be the rifle but it does not look that way now! Its nowhere near that dark, the lock bolt heads and the cock/tumbler shaft screw head are bright fire blued, there are no handling marks of any kind on the rifle.
Dennis
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I thought that it looked darker than the picture on the link above. The box looks to be the same though. I think that Randle had a hand in bringing it to the show if I remember right. Maybe he will chime in. Maybe they did a switch-a-rue and have the real one stashed away somewhere.
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This is the current looks of the rifle as taken last Thursday with my cell phone. Its a beautiful rifle, far better than my photos make it look, it looks just like it would have left a top shelf contemporary builders bench.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/009098860717/media/20915260547/medium/1461711564/enhance)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/009098860717/media/20915260545/medium/1461711564/enhance)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/009098860717/media/20915260549/medium/1461711564/enhance)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/009098860717/media/20915260128/medium/1461711510/enhance)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/009098860717/media/20915260134/medium/1461711510/enhance)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/009098860717/media/20915260124/medium/1461711510/enhance)
Dennis
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WOW, some restoration job. Are they sure it is the same gun? I liked the other one better.
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Two different rifles. One is old. That is my opinion
One lock has a bridled frizzen, one does not. Again, one is old although possibly a reconversion with maybe a Siler FRizzen.
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Agee, that is not the original. A bench copy.
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Check out this link - rifle in display case is a new rifle from Arkansas. http://www.caywoodguns.com/crocket-rifle2.html
By the way, these guys followed the same path Jim Kibler is now with his southern rifle - even traced the carving and go back to detail it. Had these at CLA show many years back.
Houston did the drawing, and I believe he made a new copy of the rifle, seems like both old and new were on the cover of Muzzle Blasts some years back with fine article.
Bob
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Two different rifles. One is old. That is my opinion
One lock has a bridled frizzen, one does not. Again, one is old although possibly a reconversion with maybe a Siler FRizzen.
Has to be, so I was right when I told the docent there was no way that rifle was the original! Sure wish they would state that so people would know it wasn't a 214 year old rifle in that condition.
Dennis
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I realize that when you build a rifle for someone that you have to build what they want and the rifle looks
really nice, but wouldn't you want it to at least appear to be old? Especially if you planned to put it in a
museum and tell everyone it was 200 years old.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fnwcd6WZ.jpg&hash=6352a98adff1911369e1820ab3608af9eb1b6165)
Here is a pix I took of the Crockett rifle displayed at the TN/KY Longrifle Show three years ago.
dave
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Agee, that is not the original. A bench copy.
It just not possible the photos of the old rifle and those of the new are the same rifle.
Dan
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Houston made a bench copy of the rifle. This may or may not be it. Story about the rifle and copy was in Muzzleblasts years ago I think. Tim
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http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=houston+harrison&updated-max=2016-01-13T07:03:00-05:00&max-results=20&start=6&by-date=false
link to article at the Contemporary Makers website
link to Contemporary Makers website and Houston Harrison copy of Crockett rifle
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=houston+harrison
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Thought I read somewhere that H.House received a grant from the Smithsonian to restore it. Then he made a bench copy of it. They had trouble telling which one was which. Not sure if that part is true. Anyone remember?
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From what I have heard all around I believe the one currently in the museum is the bench copy that Caywoodguns made for the owner.
From all the info we have seen it looks like there are several good copies floating around.
Dennis
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This reminds me of that old tv show " To tell the truth" ( I think) . The object was to guess which person was the one being described , etc. ,. Well, will the real Davy Crockett Rifle Please stand up? ;D Davy is probably lookin down from the big shootin match in the sky, getting a kick out of all of this.
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Hard to believe that a museum, of all places, would do such a thing without a placard sporting an explanation, very disappointing, no matter what the display.
Robby
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Dennis and I talked a bit today. The rifle Dennis photographed that looks new is new - Danny Caywood made that copy for the owner of the original. I'm guessing that the original has been "borrowed back" for a bit and this copy put in its place so that viewers can see something there - and a very good version of Davy's rifle. But it should have a card that accurately portrays the current situation.
I believe that Herschel did work on the rifle - but best for him or owner to explain how much and what work, if they wish.
Then Houston studied and made one copy of the restored rifle.
Caywood worked with the owner to study and make a series of close copies - first one to Pres. Bush, and this particular one for the owner.
There are quite a few differences between the Caywood and Harrison rifles - which is interesting and informative, as bench copies can vary. One copied the restored original including the lock, while the other projected what the lock and rifle would have looked like when new and handed to Davy.
thanks for the links to the Harrison article and photos of his version. Bob
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H. house did do the restoration on the original. He brought the rifle when resttoration was complete to Robin's show at the old Howard Johnson West Hills exit, 30 years ago or better.
4th. La.
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Blienemann: You mention in your post that the rifle was handed to Davy when new. I am wondering if he (Davy) bought the gun new or used and if you have some record or reference as to that question.
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Sorry for the confusion, my comment to Dennis at the TN/KY Rifle Show was based on my experience of always seeing the original "Capital Rifle" as it is referred to in the showcase at the East Tennessee History Center's museum. A little investigation has yielded the following explanation.
The original rifle was taken to Nashville last week, there are several pictures on Facebook of Tennessee Legislators being photographed holding the rifle there. In the meantime, the copy Dennis photographed was placed in the case for the museum's visitors to see. After a good laugh about my character and reputation being disparaged and besmirched on the Internet over the situation, the owners assured me that in the future when the original rifle is not on display, a note will be placed in the case identifying it as a copy.
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The triggers are not the same.
Bob
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I remember the Muzzle Blasts article and photographs very well. Hershel House was commissioned to do the restoration on the original rifle. Houston Harrison measured all the dimensions of that rifle and made his drawings from those measurements. He also made a beautiful bench copy of the rifle. This bench copy now resides in private hands. The owner also has a beautiful John Armstrong rifle by Houston Harrison that is absolutely stunning.
Be Well,
Bill
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Here is the real Crockett rifle
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/45196956_replica-non-firing-musket-franklin-mint-replica-of?from=alert&utm_source=SavedAlert&utm_campaign=SearchAlert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=item
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I have one of these Franklin Mint show-pieces, shame-faced as I am to admit it. It was given to me by a long time friend whose father treasured it. It hangs in my 15 year old son’s room where few will see it and it can do no harm. The lock works but the drum is not drilled. I’ve not been temped to drill it, either!
not-in-public Bill Paton
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There is a Crockett rifle on display in the Alamo
I believe the Alamo is a religious shrine.
I recall thinking something was wrong about it
IMHO, the Alamo is not a place to criticize anything, if one hopes some day to draw social security.
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Is it written in stone that it was a York County longrifle or is there still a debate? At the Alamo, Crockett was probably equipped with a trade rifle he picked up while traveling to Texas.
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I have studied and wondered about this rifle for many years. I kind of think (and that IS pretty dangerous) that the rifle has a "J Ferree" or an early "David Morton" look about it. Early western Pennsylvania, but as I said my idea's lead to trouble.
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So he owned this rifle for only three years, so what rifle did he use after he sold it and his reputation as a frontiersman began? Or was it during this three year period that he gain that reputation? I've read were he participated and won a lot of local shooting matches with this rifle but it was sold in 1806 and the Red Stick War wasn't until 1813.
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The Tenn. State Museum had a Crockett rifle and knife on display when I was a student at Vanderbilt in the early 60's. It might still be there. The Franklin Co Tenn. archives have many of Crockett's papers and other things. He lived for a very short time in Lincoln Co and then moved to the Beans Creek area in Franklin Co. His first wife Polly is buried there in a small country cemetery. My maternal great great grandfather had a homestead near by.
That parcel of Lincoln County is now part of Moore County and there is a historical marking denoting where the homestead was located. (its about 2 miles from my house)