AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: davebozell on May 03, 2016, 01:35:57 AM
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Here are Don Stith's swivel breech photos (and a quote from the previous post):
My photography skills are not great but hope you enjoy them. Wish I could find more A Daniels rifles. In addition to his good work he serial numbered his pieces. The swivel is No. 17. I also have number 217 which is a single barrel percussion rifle by him.
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%201_zpsw1a5urco.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%201_zpsw1a5urco.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%202_zpszqcjaaqb.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%202_zpszqcjaaqb.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%203_zpstnqf90oe.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%203_zpstnqf90oe.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%204_zpsza0wue1t.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%204_zpsza0wue1t.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%205_zpsbgrcshqg.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%205_zpsbgrcshqg.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%207_zpsbyd8kgco.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%207_zpsbyd8kgco.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%208_zpsp6nbdfi7.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%208_zpsp6nbdfi7.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%2010_zpsxucrsr4z.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%2010_zpsxucrsr4z.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%2012_zps5ycwghbp.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%2012_zps5ycwghbp.jpg.html)
(https://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/dbozell/swivel%20breech%2013_zpsfq9dgyeu.jpg) (https://s1279.photobucket.com/user/dbozell/media/swivel%20breech%2013_zpsfq9dgyeu.jpg.html)
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Dave
Thanks for posting the photos. Hope the others enjoy seeing them
Don
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Very Nice!!I have a soft spot for full paneled flint swivel's. They are somewhat of a rare item. I'm not sure where A. Daniels worked. It puts me in mind of my Daniel Boyer swivel. Berks County ( 1800-1810 ). It's pictured here under the swivel breech section.
Great toe plate with the inlays on yours ! Daniels went the extra mile. Is your single barrel rifle as fancy?
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Don
Thanks for sharing pics of your swivel breech flint rifle. Great rifle I like it a lot.Tim Cosby
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Now that's a beautiful swivel. Personally my favorite type of rifle. Bill Patton's gonna like that one
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Rob is right! Bill Paton (pronounced “Payton”) really likes this one!
The fore stock is made of one piece of wood with two barrel inlets in it, so I call it a “full stocked” swivel breech and only talk about “panels” when I see a rare swivel rifle with the barrels fastened directly together and right and left wood panels applied to the channels on either side of the conjoined barrels.
This one fascinates me with the moon inlays coordinated along the side plates of the box, the triangular inlays on the flat toe between the toe plate and trigger guard, and the inlays on the cheek side of the butt stock. I really want to see it in person for my double rifle study! Thanks for posting these.
Bill Paton
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pretty cool rifle,like the moon's around the patch box also.Always wonder what was the builder thinking when he puts stuff like that in his work.
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Don, Could you give me a little info about this fine piece?,,, Barrel length? Barrel couture and caliber? And most of all, weight? I have a SB kit to build and its rare to get a fine one to study....Thanks, Ed
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The rifle weighs 9 lb 10 oz. The barrels are 37 1/2 " long and .390 bore dia They are straight taper being .775 at breech and 690 at muzzle
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So she's a delicate flower of a swivel breech. Makes her even better.
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A very nice rare beauty there Don! I like everything about it's decoration and find the silver upper wrist oval separated by the barrel tang a most ingenious way to include this inlay on a long tanged rifle. Thank you for sharing!
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Great taste Don! There are not a lot of pieces with extensive inlaying that really grab me but I have to say, this one really kicks some butt! That's a fantastic rifle.
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I'm diggin' this one. I really like the series of silver moons on either side of the patch box. Lots O' work went into that gun back in the day...I can't imagine.
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This is a really nice rifle, that patchbox with the unusual treatment with the upper and lower side panels is something to see!
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A beautifully crafted rifle.
My apologies for being the one to bring this up, but might it not be a contemporary rifle?
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JCKelly, You might want to enlarge the pictures on your computer and take a better look at them.
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I did
The corners of the barrel flats, breech area, everything is too sharp. No pitting.
Stock contour about lock-plate and wrist is too smooth and rounded.
That brass inlay on the foretock appears held by brass pins, not iron. Although I cannot really tell with available photobucket stuff, even enlarged on my computer
There are just too many inlays and the styles do not look 19th century to me
Amen
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When you get into some of these later pieces, it's obvious that a fairly large number of them were used very little if at all. I can think in particular - on a close (to me) regional level - of quid a few Conrad Horn rifles, which look like they were just completed yesterday.
A lot of these later guns were very likely 'status' guns built for guys with money who really had no need to use them. I don't think this denigrates them in any way, because the gunmaker put just as much work into it regardless of who was writing the check. Actually, it's a huge benefit to have piece like this out there, because it enables us to have a better understanding of what expectations were presented at the time of purchase.
Anyway all b.s. aside, it's just a cool a** piece. Frankly I think Don should send it to me as some kind of tax write off so I can go whack a deer or two with it. Or ideally, a couple of turkeys, if I can hold steady enough.
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It is not for sale so just enjoy it. The pins are all iron. I only know the history for 60 years. Thirty of those in my safe. The previous 30 on a wall in a lawyers den. The Doubting Thomas types really discourage the average collector from sharing his treasures.
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Amen to that. Too many critical comments about rifles never studied in person on this site lately. Makes a person not want to post here.
Thanks Don for sharing with us.
Michael Briggs
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Thanks for sharing the rifle. It will be added to my collection -of pics that is.
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A beautiful swivel breech Don. A knock out in fact, I really like it.
dave
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I did
The corners of the barrel flats, breech area, everything is too sharp. No pitting.
Stock contour about lock-plate and wrist is too smooth and rounded.
That brass inlay on the foretock appears held by brass pins, not iron. Although I cannot really tell with available photobucket stuff, even enlarged on my computer
There are just too many inlays and the styles do not look 19th century to me
Amen
There are many examples of Adam Daniels work floating around in the hands of collectors. So don't get hung up on what your expectations of
what a 19th century rifle should look like. If Don Stith says it's an original, then you can bank on it. This is typical Daniels work.
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I am sorry that some are offended at my looking closely at their rifle.
How polite must I be to disagree?
Good to know that the pins are iron.
This Uncouth Doubting Thomas also has a rifle about which he is unsure. One might say I know its history back to 1924, nevertheless it sure looks unused.
Here it is
(https://i58.tinypic.com/2qcjk9t.jpg)
Added missing "mg]" on end of URL Dennis
(https://i58.tinypic.com/2qcjk9t.jpg)
Added missing "mg]" on end of URL Dennis
It was shown in Dillin. I like it, it gets me in touch with My Inner Ten-year Old (first read Dillin Spring 1951)
Now I know no one wants to hear me say this, but the front sight on that swivel breech looks rather too high, to me, than would be found in the 19th century
There is no point in listing what I might regard as my qualifications. Now & again I see a contemporary rifle offered, or sold, as an original. A few years ago Collectors Firearms had a fine flint rifle which they did honestly label as being from, I believe, the 1920's. maybe later, don't recall, but before 1940. Never before knew that any 20th century guys made flintlock rifles before WWII. One reason I am not so positive about the age of my Dillin rifle.
With respect I do choose to disagree with you all.
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A fake, for sure. Just to put your mind at ease you can sell it to me ;D
Seriously, a superb example of a flint swivel breech that I for one would be over joyed to have in my collection. One of the nicest I've seen. Thanks for sharing!
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OK, I guess . . .
Well, I've learned something about A (Adam?) Daniels
Two not-quite-so-beautiful examples were sold recently at auction
First is Number 255
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a.-daniels-fancy-full-stock-kentucky-percussion-2154-c-79c362bfcd
And Number 207
http://www.kahnfineantiques.com/index.cfm?ImgId=2882
This second one has a patchbox reminiscent of that swivel, except it lacks those silver half-moon inlays.
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Glad to see the different numbered one. I had seen 7, 17, and 217. Was wondering if the guy knew how to count. My memory might be off but I think the swivel shown to be A Kunkle in the first patchbox book is actualy an A Daniels .
Contacted the owner of it several years ago, and it was numbered with a 7 as one of the digits.
What page number and which edition of Dillin is your rifle pictured in?
If it makes you feel any better, Tapered barrels have higher front sights than straight or swamped barrels
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My late rifle is on pages 83-84 as rifle #3, Plates 93 & 94, St. John collection. That's the first edition, but I don't think position changed with later editions. Provenance is myself, the late Robert Hubbard, Sr. of Troy; then the late Bill Harris, also of Michigan, who bought it in the '50's. It might be reasonable to think he got it from the estate of Clarence St. John.
This rifle is smooth-bored, shows little evidence of use except the lock, which has been re-soled. I think "re-", anyway the face is copper brazed to the frizzen.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi61.tinypic.com%2F34ecf7n.jpg&hash=551815863b8266b776c9edefda2e96f10eb6b819)
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In order to regulate two tapered barrels one would expect the front sites to be high.
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Bill, About how many flint swivel's ( full stocked or paneled ) do you think are out there? By the way thank's for pointing out the difference ,full stock or paneled. I had always called them paneled but your definition makes sense.
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It is not for sale so just enjoy it. The pins are all iron. I only know the history for 60 years. Thirty of those in my safe. The previous 30 on a wall in a lawyers den. The Doubting Thomas types really discourage the average collector from sharing his treasures.
You're right Don, and this rifle is as good as gold.
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Jim (JDM) asked how many full stocked swivel breech flintlocks are “out there”. I have no idea, but the answer is more complex than first imagined. When I get home next week from working out of town, I’ll tabulate the 80+ that I have documented and post the info.
Many full stocked SB’s were made as flintlocks. Many of those were converted to percussion during their time of use. I believe most of those conversions in collections today have been re-converted to flint, and that can be hard to tell sometimes. There are also numerous full stocked “retroversions”, meaning original percussion SB’s turned into flintlocks either through ignorance, or more likely fraudulently. So accurate numbers are hard to come by.
Additionally, numerous later flint swivel breeches were made with no wood in the fore ends. And of course those can be conversions, reconversions, and retroversions, as well.
Next week, expect me to post a stab at this data from those I have been able to study so far.
Bill Paton
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I am very grateful for your shared information regarding swivel breech long rifles Bill! I never knew the differences between a full stocked vs panel stocked for-end. I had always been under the impression that the wood up front was always paneled, or not present at all on some examples. I also have seen pictures of the few S\B rifles made by N. Hawk that he made the for-stock panels from brass and nicely engraved some of them. Like many devotee's of American longrifle's, my tastes prefer those that have more up front than just barrels alone. Since acquiring that older contemporary S\B flintlock rifle a couple weeks back, my interests have peaked upon this subject. Enjoyed my first shooting experience a couple days ago and have really got the bug for these! I was a little worried that I would run into issues loading the same barrel twice or get things mixed up in the loading process. No problem encountered at all however as I just dumped my powder into the top barrel first, refilled my measure and dropped into the lower barrel. Laid patch with centered ball on top barrel, and the same on the lower barrel. Short start each and ram em both home. Both being rifled in the same 54 caliber is helpful. Cleanup was also a lot easier than expected as well. A few more strokes involved but that is about it. The swivel breech system was quite the invention and having that second shot with just a twist........very cool! ;D
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There are some nice swivel breech rifles in the special "Multi barrel: Swivel, Double, other" section in the Virtual Museum in the AmericanLongRifles Forums.
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In response to JDM’s previous question on this thread, here is preliminary data from the 86 Kentucky double rifles I have documented so far in my ongoing study for eventual publication. I am responding to his impossible-to-answer question of how many full stocked flint swivel breeches are out there.
Kentucky double rifles studied to date: 86
Swivel breeches: 68 (The rest are SXS, superimposed load, and fixed O/U)
Originally made as flintlocks: 24
Converted to perc: 12
Reconverted to flint: 9
Full stocked: 20
I find it hard to believe that only half the flint swivels were converted to percussion. It can be difficult to tell if a reconversion is very skillfully done. I have not yet looked deep into barrels for welded touch holes, but I expect my soon-to-arrive bore scope will be helpful in that regard.
Originally made as perc: 44
Retroverted wrongly to Flint 5
Full stocked 15
This sample is not random. There are far more unstudied (by me) Kentucky double rifles “out there” than I will ever find and be able to examine. But I am still at it and hope to add many more before going to publication with my findings about their evolution in America, mechanical innovations, function, and history.
I am seeking leads on double rifles for a trip around Pennsylvania this coming late June (KRA time), and around Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia and surrounds in August (CLA time). If any of you can help with that, my efforts will be improved, as will the eventual finished product.
Bill Paton, Anchorage, Alaska
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Bill, Thank you for the response . I knew you were doing a study and wondered how many you had seen and documented. I guess I should have phrased it better. The study is very interesting and look forward to seeing the book when completed. I'm sorry to see, but not surprised, that you found five percussion changed to flint. If the owners didn't already know ,I bet they didn't like hearing it.
In your research have you seen any documentation on the price difference between the single barrel rifle and the swivels? I'm guessing they were to expensive for the average buyer .Plus they were probably more prone to damage with hard use.
Will you be coming through the Kansas City area?
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JDM,
Discussing indications of “retroversion" from original percussion to FL is indeed a delicate matter, handled individually and very carefully. I will not publish retroverted guns without consent of the owner, but even without specific consent I will talk about the matter generally without mentioning specific guns.
Flayderman discusses values in his books, and prices for doubles tend to be only moderately higher than singles, but this determination is difficult to document and Kentucky rifle market fluctuations in general seem to be wider than the degree of added value for double rifles.
Again, I am seeking more Kentucky double rifles of any configuration to add to my study, and I swing around various parts of the Lower 48 periodically to do that. I am grateful for any tips on locating them and can be reached through email at wapaton.sr@gmail.com and 907-230-3600 in Alaska, 4 hours earlier than Eastern time.
Bill Paton
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Great rifle thanks for showing it to us. I have a quick question, in looking at the trigger guard, does it cock to swivel the barrels similar in concept to a Winchester? If so, I find that fascinating for a flint era rifle. Real dandy rifle!!
Thanks,
Matt
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It is just a simple latch mechanism with the front of the bow pivoting when you squeese up on it