AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Boremouse on May 22, 2016, 04:56:05 AM
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Hey Guys!
Newbie on the forum.
I am in search of anyone who has had experience with using #1 buckshot in their smoothbore muzzle loaders for hunting deer.
I would be using a 12 gauge Pedersoli SXS ( Buck and Ball) model with rear sight and open cylinder barrels, or a Classic Pedersoli SXS with screw in chokes. Also might use a Leonard Day swivel breech with .62 smooth/rifled barrels.
Anyway any experience that you may have had using # 1 buckshot for hunting and load information would be appreciated!
I would probably lean towards using the swivel breech in the event that I might get a fairly long shot where I would use the patched round ball in the rifled bore. I do most of my deer hunting in E.Texas and some of the areas that I hunt are real thickets where a 15-25 yard shot would be the maximum!And the deer are usually traveling like they are on a mission and leave very little time for a precise rifle shot! Thus a shotgun/ smooth bore would be more applicable!
Thanks,
Boremouse
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I had this sort of discussion with my cousin back East where the law states smoothbore, or shotgun only.
His experience was one of sorrow and disgust when attempting to kill whitetails with buckshot, his shots were close - the deer almost all escaped wounded, even though the odd one hit the dirt at impact. He tried #1's through 000.
I suggested he buy the 3 main makes of Foster Slugs, use the most accurate and go kill a deer. Couple days later, he was a happy hunter.
Thus, I suggest you steer clear of small shot and only use a single large ball. The single ball will buck the brush much better and even after hitting some, will still kill the deer. Thick country is not, in my opinion, the place to use "Buck Shot" that will not cut through the brush and has too much of a tendency to wound, not kill.
Wide open shots from a tree stand - 20yard's at most - well, maybe - but not me - not ever.
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I'm with Daryl on this one, buckshot is a good way to cripple game, and a bad way to kill it. Figure out how to make your smoothbore shoot with a round ball, and get it done in one shot. I like undersized dimpled balls, no patch, and a fat charge.
Hungry Horse
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I've tried buck shot in my 10 bore. On paper, 10 yards is about the max for a nice tight group that would probably drop a deer. Past that, especially if the deer are running, you might get a few hits, but what good is that ? The brush is thick here, and trying to track a wounded animal for a good distance can be difficult, and near impossible without a blood trail. Any way you look at it, you are much better off with a single large round ball.
Even at close range.
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OO buck worked well for me in the Jungle for deer, alligator, monkey, ocelot, and capybara. I ate well. My hunting buddy killed upwards of 20 Tapirs with OO buck with headshots. I knew of Indians that during the Jaguar hunting days in the 1950s OO buckshot was used. I am sure some will disagree but it what we had and it work well if one does his job.
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Thanks to all you guys!
Sounds like general consensus is to go with the round ball! Although as I mentioned in my original post that some of the "Hot Spots" are in real thickets and chances are pretty slim that you have time to get a good sight picture on these deer. So looks like I will have to ambush them in more open spots if possible! That is always a challenge as these deer get nocturnal almost as soon as the first shot of the season is heard! >:(
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Tim, was that with a modern 12 gauge, and perhaps a modified choke? I would expect distance was 10 yards or better if head shots were successful. A #1 buck shot in the jaw etc isn't going to do much good. I'd pattern the load I was going to use, at the distance likely to be used, and let that be your guide.
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Bob
In the South for many years buckshot was used to hunt deer. Not getting into the guns but thousands of deer were killed each year with buckshot. Deer were primarily bunted using dogs and shooting deer was often like wing shooting. Rifles were rare and considered dangerous back in the 60's. Bucksot will kill deer cleanly if they are at a range where the pattern is effective generall 50 yds or less..
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Bob
15-30 yards at night and day light. I know of several occasions longer range, paraffin was poured into the shot to keep it together. Guns both black powder and modern. Bores 12 ,16, 20. Chokes varied from full to modified. Guns were hard used and life expectancy was 2- 10 years. Ran out of manufactured shot and made my own version of OO by pounding out lead or steel into rods then cutting to suitable OO. I made my version of duplex loads OO x 4s worked very well as a all around load. There were times a rifle would have worked nicely but they were not to be had. The Indians frequently did the same. It was the land of make do.
I edited some info out on modern guns since this a BP site.
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Since we're talking smoothbore muzzleloaders here, I will end with this...from my own testing. [ Others may have a different experience ] In my gun , at any distance that I would trust the pattern of buck shot to drop a deer, the very lack of distance would negate the perceived benefit of using the shot rather than a round ball. I'll stick to what I know.
My gun comes to eye with no effort on my part. That is the true benefit of having a gun that fits you, and helps make the passing shots possible.
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Thousands of elephants, buffalo and etc - were shot with low powered rounds as well- over the years.
That does not justify the use of less than adequate projectiles today - when we know better and have a choice - I'm with Bob on this one - so is my cousin.
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Daryl ,
Who sets the standard for what to use caliber or buck or ball wise? You have to remember it was the frontier I am talking about ,one could wish for any thing but it wasn't possible. You used what was legally available. The Indian hunters certainly felt OO buck was up to the task.
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sqrldog reminded me of my past years when I was getting into deer hunting in 1962 in the south and as sqrldog mentioned a lot of deer were shot with buckshot running ahead of the dogs. If one was lucky and was a stander on a pipeline or an old logging road you might have an open shot of 15-25 yards if you happen to be lucky and the deer ran that close to you! Some of those standers used conventional centerfire double barrel shotguns and the buckshot varied from 00 to #1. Of course these guys were good shots and knew how to use their guns an loads to make killing shots.
So if one was to use a smooth bore muzzle loader with buckshot, I think getting the velocity for adequate penetration. and a good pattern at 25-35 yards would be two entities that would be sought for a successful shot.
I agree that a patched ball would be optimum if conditions were such that a good sight picture could be made and a good trigger squeeze could be performed. If one is in tight quarters and thick brush and trees prevent a shot with a smooth bore patched ball, that would be the time and place for a good buckshot load if the target is in range for 2-3 seconds.
i read either on this forum or maybe some other forum that there is one gentleman that deer hunts with a Charleville 1776 Musket with a load of #1 buck shot and supposedly has not lost a deer yet. it would be interesting to track this post down and see under what conditions and range is this person hunting!
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Makes you wonder why they called it buckshot back then. ;)
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i hunt where it's thick. I set up on lanes and intersections of lanes in order to have sight windows of yards instead of feet.
First buck with flintlock was big one that popped into visibility (from the wrong direction of course) and I came up with the _rifle_ (42" bbl) shouldered, aimed, cocked, decided he was a "shooter", set, fired-all in 4 or 5 seconds as he was moving right to left and was about to put his tail to me and eliminate a good shot angle. 17 yards was the distance. It happened so fast I had to sit there and recount the scene right away-for that elapsed time estimate. I didn't just make it up years later. I simply won't buy into the notion that a rifle takes "time for a precise shot" when the range is so short. I was sitting on the ground.
Sometimes you get to set up a leisurely shot, and other times there's no time at all and no gun would make the difference. That's hunting.
THICK is where I hunt most of the time because that's where more deer, and more mature deer are found. Going to the longrifle after years and years of shortmoderns, has been no problem whatsoever. I find long guns a pleasure in the deep thick woods.
The next day my rifle takes another buck at ~100 yards (over a small body of water, hence the distance and lack of accurate distance) with my pal at the trigger. The first deer may have been in buckshot range, the second one, clearly not.
Since buckshot has never been legal for large game in my state in my lifetime, I don't have any direct knowledge about the lethality of buckshot, but I do know that #1 is awfully small to my notions. I wouldn't want to set myself up to have to turn down longer shots on good game. That range is going to be highly correlated to ball size.
If I were hunting with a smoothie, it'd have a single ball in it.
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Makes you wonder why they called it buckshot back then. ;)
Hunting ethics were not much back in the day. They NAMED all the shot rather than giving it number sizes. Duck, goose, swan, etc etc. #1 Buck in the heavy loadings is a great anti-personnel load in an open choke. Or a very close range "stopper" for game like Leopards and such or even bears (I have read) if the range is measured in FEET. But the shot STILL has to be PLACED with precision so I wonder what the real advantage is over a rifle or a shotgun with a single projectile. Once the shot column spreads the stopping power and killing powder on larger game is greatly reduced. Its still a low impact velocity light weight round ball. In the traditional ML the killing power generally comes via ball diameter. Shooting deer with a 40-50 grain ball is not ethical. If FORCED to it by some law then use the largest shot the bore will tolerate. Carefully velocity test and pattern the gun and understand what the max range is. Using a traditional ML this is probably going to be 20 yards or so. In a 12 gauge this is going to be 00. Lack of a choke in traditional MLs is a serious hamper to getting a decent pattern at any distance.
We have to remember that MODERN choked shotguns are a different proposition than the ML shotgun. So when we start to read about buckshot uses for hunting its almost invariably in the MODERN context.
If you are hunting Deer and other large game and you don't have time to place the shot properly, why shoot? Buckshot in the guts is even worse than a properly sized projectile in the same place.
Many years ago, near 60 now. Dad shot a WT buck that someone had shot in the shoulder with a load of Buckshot. None reached the vitals. Deer was sick enough that dad returned home for his rifle and went back and killed it.
Dan
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Dan I agree with what you are saying. Any use of shot in a muzzleloading gun should only be done after carefully working up a pattern and getting enough velocity out of the smoothbore to take game cleanly. And then by taking shots within the effective range of the gun. I don't hunt deer with buckshot. In the past and possibly now buckshot was the required load for deer hunting on an Al Wildlife Management Area during a dog deer hunt. I not only hunted on these areas but later during my 28 year career as a Conservation Enforcement Officer worked on them and there were many deer cleanly killed by buckshot. It is simply a combination of velocity and pattern coupled with shot placement. Deer are cleanly killed and wounded at times by all methods of hunting again its a matter of shot placement in most cases. Tim
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Yep, some in Africa killed elephants with shot, some even with spears, as well as buffalo and lions.
But not clean, instantaneous kills. The tribal hunters, in groups, followed the wounded game for days as it weakened, planting another spear or shot, until funtil finally the animal dropped from blood loss, or exhaustion.
I'll stick with a RB. Shot of whatever size may be useful for clearing small animals & varmints at close range, but not humane for big game. There are millions of deer brought down with shot, and like millions more that died a horrible death some days later.
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I think sqrldog has made a succinct summation on this topic!
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When I was getting old enough to hunt deer. Asked my Grandfather who was my mentor. How come he didn't use buckshot. He said because I (he) could shoot. He believed it wounded more game than it killed. It all depends on how good you are at picking your shot. If you don't have a good shot don't take it. My option only.
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The original question was about personal experience with using a certain buckshot load for deer., I have not used it but did help track one shot with the load and was not happy with the loads performance . Neighbor found the deer two days later. It would not matter if it was shot out of a muzzleloader or modern shot gun, it was a poor performing load at the range it was shot.
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I used to hunt with a group that hunted the thick swamps by using drives and dogs. At the time we were required by law to use buckshot. We killed deer, but it was usually a close fast moving shot and NEVER with one shot. Most required a minimum of three shots and even then a few had to be followed up with the trail dog. The larger sized buckshot seemed to work a little better, but only marginally so. Due to this experience I would not ever use a single shot muzzleloading arm with buckshot on a deer.
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That's a good first-hand post, Pete. If one spends the time to think about it- once the pellets spread from the solid-cluster they are at the very muzzle, they become individual tiny balls, moving much more slowly than if shot from a squirrel rifle.
On bears, we had difficulty getting them to pen to the cavity, past ribs (tiny & usually smaller then deer), fat, muscle and hide & found point blank - 6' to 10' shots to the side of the head on black bears was quite successful. At 20yards - ineffective, but did really make them angry. Even little 3 yer olds did not drop to rib shots - it was quite disheartening to hear them bawl.
The Jasper Park Rangers found buck shot to not work at all on 'trouble' griz- however standard Foster slugs did, which do not penetrate as well as solid round balls.
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Really makes me wonder how we killed 300,000 deer a year in Al back in the late sixties and early seventies the manority of them with buckshot. The first eight or ten deer I killed were killed with buckshot and died about as well as any others I've shot and I have killed more than my share. As I said I don't use buckshot but I've seen gut shot deer with about every thing used in hunting. The original post was whether he could kill a deer with number one buckshot. I'm of the opinion he can if he does his homework and keeps his shots in his effective range. Even then I would recommend going to a bigger shot.Tim
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You don't load them like a shotgun. The shot you use will vary with your bore size. You find the diameter shot that when 3 are loaded on a wad, they form a triangle in the bore. The next 3 are loaded in the gaps of the previous 3, and so on until you have a shot column that is 6 high. This gives you 18 shot in a tight column within the bore instead of a load that you just dump down the barrel.
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Exactly T O F Thats what I meant about doing his homework and using a lsrger shot one that fits his bore. And makes a column of shot. That I tbink is the information the OP was looking for and not just a argument for or agaist buckshot. We strayed way off his original question for that I apologize to the OP. I've nothing more to say on the subject. Tim
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Been reading this thread and to be honest I never really thought about using buck shot out of a smooth bore for deer.I remember back in day when the area I grew up at became a shot gun only area.Muzzleloaders could also be used,modern shotguns with slug or OO,muzzleloaders where either.As for 00 can't say much out of a muzzleloader but out of a modern shot gun its devastating. I think it comes down to knowing you and your guns limitations.If for one second you have dought about it go round ball.Did shoot some buck and ball and while fun I think I'd pass on using it to hunt deer unless they are ten feet from me
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Yeah sqrldog!
you are right about T*O*F coming up with good information on how to load buckshot ! As you mentioned that is the kind of information I was seeking!Also will take your suggestion about using a little larger buckshot size.
And with that I think I am finished with this topic.
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Yes do as you please, I didn't mean to be controversial or adversarial in my post, but that to point out it's not too hard to hit a moving deer at short yardage with a single projectile. I'm also aware that single-ball loading may be against the rules in some places.
Bigger is better in some cases and this is one, but a fella must abide.
Best of luck on all game no matter what you use.
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Yes do as you please, I didn't mean to be controversial or adversarial in my post, but that to point out it's not too hard to hit a moving deer at short yardage with a single projectile. I'm also aware that single-ball loading may be against the rules in some places.
Bigger is better in some cases and this is one, but a fella must abide.
Best of luck on all game no matter what you use.
Thanks Wade!
And lots of luck to you also!
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I have a .31 caliber squirrel rifle that likes #1 buckshot just fine. Haven't tried it on deer yet. Most ML seasons require .45 or larger.
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I wouldn't try it for deer, even if it was legal - as it is here. Actually, any ML is legal for moose, elk, grizzly's, whatever, but not buffalo. Yeah - game branch is not too bright which is what happens with bureaucrats make the rules.
If someone showed up here in camp to hunt moose with a .40, I would not guide him unless he acquiesced to using one of my rifles.
Actually, big game is why I have .58, 20 bore smooth and best yet, a .69 calibre moose killing rifle. The .50 will work, but will work better as a rendezvous rifle - where 'struttin' in part and parcel of the experience.
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I've seen several deer killed with a .22 mag. Not legal, but head shots are effective. A .32 would probably work if you are close and place your shot well, not that it would be my first choice..... ;)
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My stomach and my desire to eat drove what I did , but I used the tools at hand. ;D
To be honest a swivel breech with a .50 cal or heavier with 12 ga would have worked well.
I knew one guy with a .44 rifle caplock and he wanted a LOT of money to part with it. So I used what I had....OO buck and bow and arrow! :o
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Never tried OO buck with a bow.... :P
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Only when you run low on BP and arrows. I still like to eat. ;D Not sure about the OO patterns!
We ate well enough, surf and turf meant :alligator and venison or capybarra with fried yucca for chips! The look on the one American's face showed it wasn't his idea of Surf and Turf. I offered to eat it but he finally ate it! LOL