AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Mauser06 on June 27, 2016, 07:39:16 PM
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As I am finishing up a half stock rifle I am debating on which caliber I want it to be....
Right now it's a 1" Green Mountain LRH fast twist 50cal...I didn't spend an arm and a leg for the barrel...so having it bored out wouldn't bother me...
At first I wanted to shoot a heavy conical or possibly a sabot...I'm not a fan of 50cal roundball performance..ive shot several deer with them...killed them..but just never happy with the results..
I'm thinking of 58, 60 or 62cal. (not certain I can take it clear to 62cal or not..i THINK I can..).
I don't shoot a million balls a year so cost isn't an issue...i don't cast lead (yet..lol) so I'd be buying them...
Mostly only deer hunt and shots are usually 30yd average if I had to guess..some closer...farthest has been 75yds or so...
Mainly looking for solid performance.....also don't like the weight of a 1" 50cal barrel... sucker is plain ole HEAVY and having it bored out will reduce the weight a bit....
Any thoughts on caliber???
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I had a 1 in .62 barrel, so I know they are out there. If you don't cast your own yet, perhaps you'd be better off with a .58. Lots of choice for ammo with a .58
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If you're shooting whitetail deer at the ranges you mention, a .54 is more than enough and might be something to consider. You don't say what length that barrel is, but a 1" ATF barrel isn't too heavy in most half stocks unless the barrel is unusually long. At those distances, rifles in larger calibers than that would seem to be serious overkill for whitetail deer.
Mole Eyes
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The barrel is 28"..
I'm not worried about overkill...lol. I don't believe it's possible...
I have terrible results with 50cal balls and blood trails.. perfectly hit behind the shoulder and only finding deer because I knew I didn't miss...i know a ton of factors go into a blood trail or drop on the spot shots...but a bigger ball means a bigger hole and that should mean more blood on the ground...
Actually wasn't even getting pass throughs with the 50...I've been shooting ball-ets in it a while now...they pass through but blood is still pretty minimal at best...
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For some reason, I also do not like a .50. I know, it is the most popular caliber, but I just never cared for them. For the "smaller" calibers, I always liked the .54. They just worked for me.
I did a re-barrel one time on a 1" T/C Renegade and put a slow twist (1:104) .62 cal barrel on it. It worked fine, but the recoil with heavy charges was not pleasant. The shape of the Renegade stock and my body don't go together very well for heavy powder charges. Up to 125 grains was pleasant, but over that - ouch.
So, yes you can do .62 probably as a maximum, and anything smaller.
Don't forget, for optimum results, you might want to get some advise on what rate of twist you should utilize for round ball performance. I like 1:66 or 1:72 for the .54. Anything slower than 1:90 for the .62.
You can order almost any size round ball that you can think of from various vendors on line.
John
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For some reason, I also do not like a .50. I know, it is the most popular caliber, but I just never cared for them. For the "smaller" calibers, I always liked the .54. They just worked for me.
I have the same problem, I just never liked a .50. I think it comes from the first one that I ever owned would hardly hit the back-stop at 100 yards much less "group". Always felt that the .45's and the .54's shot better for me. Probably in my head but I shy away from them in a for a personal rifle.
Dennis
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IMO, it's pretty much all up to you, personal choice type of thing. The biggest deer I ever shot was with a .50 RB, SMACKDOWN at around 125 yards, 227 lb field dressed. I don't think that deer would have been any deader with a .62.
I personally don't care for the recoil of the larger calibers, it doesn't bother other folks much.
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I would bet that if your fast twist LRH barrel is like new you could sell it for about enough to get a replacement barrel in the size bore of your choice. Those haven't been made for a few years now and there are people out there looking for them.
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Scott, you seem to know from what you talk.
I would personally take that thought to heart and not mess around modifying things.
John
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I've had tremendous results and great blood trails with .45s but that's obviously not a solution that you're looking for. Just me but I particularly like the .54. It definitely packs a wallop leagues above a .50. And it doesn't take all that much powder to get the same velocities as you can get with a .50. Ball and conicals are quite available, too.
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Either you aren't driving that .50 cal. Hard enough, or you're not hitting the sweet spot. I made a poor hit on a 115 pound blacktail ( above the lungs, and below the spine) and still knocked the bad boy flat long enough to get a second shot before he found his feet.
Hungry Horse
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I considered getting barrel.. Colerain makes one and TOTW makes a breech plug that SHOULD fit my tang...Oregon Barrel Co makes a "drop in" as well but they ant me to send them my stock...thanx but no thanx...
With the Colerain I'd need to put an underlug in the exact spot my key hole is cut.. probably not a huge deal...and I'd have to attach an under rib and thimbles.. probably not a huge deal...and put sights on it...again.. probably not a huge deal...I'd like to learn....then o could finish the furniture and barrel to match...and really an aged dark steel would probably look awesome with my stock since I gave it a kinda aged look...
I don't know...seems easier to send it out and have it bored out and even for $100 or so more I think a new barrel will cost me more than I will have wrapped into the current barrel..
I've killed 15 or so deer with my 50cal...i know atleast 3.. probably a few more were with a roundball and 90gr of 3f...they didn't exit..ive killed the rest with ball-ets...I've killed deer with rifles and my bow as well...i know where to shoot em...I've never had one go an absurd distance...the ball-ets exited but blood trail and holes were not much...
I shot more than one that I just knew I didn't miss...clean lung shot..no spray..no blood... nothing to follow...cavity full...i understand how deer die and how blood comes out of the holes etc..i just feel a bigger caliber will give me what I am wanting to see....
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I shot more than one that I just knew I didn't miss...clean lung shot..no spray..no blood... nothing to follow...cavity full...i understand how deer die and how blood comes out of the holes etc..i just feel a bigger caliber will give me what I am wanting to see....
From what you said above it sounds like your shootin too high.you might want to study the anatomy of Whitetail a little bit before you go huntin again.I know it helps me alot .BTW I would go with a new 54 barrel and sell the old one as was suggested.,but its your call. Curt
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I am not a fan of the.50 either. I prefer my .58 or the .62. I do not use any more than 90 grains in either and get good results. I have a 1" .62 Green Mountain on my TC Renegade and she shoots great. Personally I would go the re-bore route with Bobby Hoyt. It is simple and reasonably priced. In my opinion the best you will do is break even if you sell the fast twist and then go out and buy a drop in. I like simple and cost effective. Good luck whichever way you go.
Dave
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I have other hunters here that always seem to be stationed around my property, just outside the fence lines. I don't want deer running off my land. Since the distances are usually short, I often hunt with my 10 bore and a round ball, or my .54 or even .62 cal rifles Since switching to these, I've never had a deer go more than a few yards...never out of sight. Haven't lost one. My friend hunts with a .45 I built for him and has good luck with it, but I prefer the larger calibers.
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I shot more than one that I just knew I didn't miss...clean lung shot..no spray..no blood... nothing to follow...cavity full...i understand how deer die and how blood comes out of the holes etc..i just feel a bigger caliber will give me what I am wanting to see....
A bigger ball won't help you much if you're shooting them in the lungs. Lungs just don't bleed well - most of the blood vessels there are small, and most of the blood lost just pools in the chest cavity. Lungs are not part of the CNS, and there's too much air for effective hydroshock damage. A deer can survive long enough with a perforated lung to get a mile away and into hiding before laying down to die. Unless you lucked out and broke a leg on the way in or out you're likely to lose it. Gotta aim lower, the heart is very low in a deer's chest.
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Never shot a deer with my .69 - however on moose, the norm is a 3" to 4" hole through both lungs - bleed-out is within seconds. Boom WHACK! a shakey step or 2 - DRT. works for me.
As to slugs, I also had that desire, many years ago, wanted a fast twist .50 - then read about the necessity of platinum nipples, joined the NAPR, bought Forsyth's book, had a 14 bore rifle made up in '86- never thought about a fast twist slug rifle since. I do have a couple conical moulds for that rifle, fired a few shots with a 2 ounce conical, cracked the stock - never fired another. The light, in comparison 484gr. round balls or the even lighter & smaller 15 bore 460gr. balls do the job just fine. Slugs are not
necessary.
On a 1" barrel, .54 would be good and still have enough weight to hold & shoot well. A .58 might be OK, but will be lighter will have more recoil with hunting or accuracy loads. Up to you. Recoil of 110gr. to 130gr. in .54 to .58's is not usually bothersome - much - depending on stock design.
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Lots of opinions on how to kill deer.... Lol.
I've killed closing in on 100 whitetails. I've lost count anymore but it's somewhere around 80, maybe a few more.
The only consistent thing I've seen is that a spine or brain hit is DRT. Otherwise, weird stuff can happen.
That said, I often heard about the "gap" between the lungs and spine. I started looking at deer. Not diagrams, not drawings. At deer. Dead ones. I went looking for a gap and couldn't find one. What I did find was that lungs by need and design fill the thoracic cavity. The top of the thoracic cavity is...... drumroll.... Ribs and their attachment to the spinal column.
The spinal column does dip down between the shoulders, however, and the spinous process.... the "wing" off the top of the vertebral body...projects up to where we see the top of the deer's back. A hit above the lungs is very possible, but it will also be above the spinal column, too. Not under it. Next time you guys dress or butcher a deer, give it a good look-see.
I'm sort of perplexed to see people saying not to shoot at the lungs. Yeah, the heart is lethal but the lungs are big and also lethal.
I've had deer shot with marginal shots simply die on the spot and I can't explain it. I've also had deer hit with beautiful shots and hard hitting projectiles run. Critters are critters. Sometimes they just don't know they're dead.
That said, I hunt in PA too and I use a 62-cal happily. :)
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Thanx all!!!
I know lead from a flintlock kills in a different way than a jacketed rifle bullet or a broadhead...best blood trails in my experiece come from broadheads....
I know lots of hunters love 45s and 50s...and many many animals have died due to them...
I've always wanted to go bigger..."just because". Figure this is a good time to try it...60cal is kinda ruled out...balls are a little harder to find...I'm leaning towards the 58....i know the 54 is a great caliber..but I am the guy that likes to have something different lol...there are plenty of 45-50-54cals st camp...sick of those guys bumming loads from me! Lol
Tdd...i agree 100%....there's no "void" and the lungs are an excellent target...i do agree lower lung is better...i always strive to put a hole right in the pocket behind the shoulder and above the leg..i usually rip the top of the heart off...
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Never had a problem dropping a whitetail with a patched round ball, either 45, 50 or 54. I have had to track whitetails using a 30-30 or 6.8mm SPC (270) shot through at 125 yards. Must be lucky my smokepole dropped them in their tracks.
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In my personal experience, heart shots from any projectile (arrow, bullet, or ball) tend to give me the worst blood trails of any solid vital hit. They don't go far, but they're sometimes a bugger to find.
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I agree tdd...if you blow the heart up its not pumping blood...my best are always when I am take a hunk off the very top end of the heart...
I've never had well hit deer go far...but I'd like to see a little more of a hole...a little more blood...hunting in PA is a bit different lol... especially in rifle season...i jumped a buck and sent it to my buddy the last day a few years ago...he put 2 rounds in it..one solid chest hit..the 2nd was low and back and literally gutted the thing...it went 30yds or so and piled up next to a road...POW! Someone shot...figured they shot at tje doe he was with...nope...they hot the buck...I'm 99% certain that buck was dead or at the very least on the ground.. evidence at the scene suggest so...rather than start the confrontation we left...but that wasn't cool...and sadly it happens...
Now that I'm gunna primarily flintlock hunt even in rifle season I'd like a little more than what the 50 has shown me...
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Hmmmm Here I am gathering up the parts for a .45 for my personal deer gun. Oh well.... ;D I'm pretty sure I could put them down with my .36, but it's not a legal deer gun in Iowa. I have seen several deer that were "shot out of season" with a 22 mag. The shooter reported they dropped like a stone.
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I agree tdd...if you blow the heart up its not pumping blood...my best are always when I am take a hunk off the very top end of the heart...
I've never had well hit deer go far...but I'd like to see a little more of a hole...a little more blood...hunting in PA is a bit different lol... especially in rifle season...i jumped a buck and sent it to my buddy the last day a few years ago...he put 2 rounds in it..one solid chest hit..the 2nd was low and back and literally gutted the thing...it went 30yds or so and piled up next to a road...POW! Someone shot...figured they shot at tje doe he was with...nope...they hot the buck...I'm 99% certain that buck was dead or at the very least on the ground.. evidence at the scene suggest so...rather than start the confrontation we left...but that wasn't cool...and sadly it happens...
Now that I'm gunna primarily flintlock hunt even in rifle season I'd like a little more than what the 50 has shown me...
A .58 will deal a $#*! of a blow!
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I'm really surprised at all the "lack of love" for the .50. In my main hunting rifle I shoot a home-cast 182 gr., .495 round ball over 75 grains of 2F powder. Back on the last day of MZ season in 2005, I had a doe & two fawns in front of me at about 60 yards. I concentrated on getting a chest shot on the doe and lost track of where the fawns were standing. When I shot, the doe went down and the fawns took off running. After running about 50 yards, one of the fawns did a barrel role in mid-jump and piled up, dead. :o Best I can tell, one fawn had been standing behind and beside the doe when I shot because the ball went in & out the doe's chest and went almost through the chest of the fawn (I found the ball flattened out against the hide on the far side of the fawns chest). Fortunately, I had two deer tags needing filled. ;D
Up until that point, I was kind of worried that my load may have been a bit light. I never changed that load and so far I have killed eleven deer with that gun and load. Two of those deer were killed in their beds at 70+ yards. My other deer gun is a .50 cal T/C Renegade with a Green Mountain LRH barrel. I shoot various conicals over 90 grains of 2F out of that one. I never feel under-gunned when I go to the woods with either of my .50's. I wait for good, clear chest shots and strive to keep my shots under 80 yards.
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I gave up on 50 caliber balls years ago due to the lack of knock down power. In the nearly impenetrable pine thickets of the south trailing a deer shot with a 50 caliber ball is not fun is my reason. I have had several perfectly shot deer run 80 to 100 yards with zero blood trail and no exit wound. I began using the Buffalo bullet years ago and the difference in knock down performance is huge. Once I started using heavy bullets in a 50 caliber, every deer I have hit has either dropped on the spot or bolted only a few yards.
In my nearly 40 years of hunting deer with muzzleloaders, I have found the .54 caliber ball is only beginning to gain my respect. Have taken deer with a 230 grain ball but they still run a long distance. I like a 62 best. With 120 grains of 2f and a 330 grain ball my underhammer percussion will hammer down on a deer.
I understand others have had different experiences with 50 caliber balls and like them. But my experience has been negative with them.
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I have helped track dozens of deer shot with either shotgun slugs, traditional round ball, conicals, modern rifle bullets, or broadheads....some of them - even when fatally hit, left little if any blood trail. Talking muzzleloader calibers is fun and educational but the need for disciplined shot selection and bullet placement can not be overemphasized. So long as it is legal, shoot what you are most accurate with.
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In Northern California where I live, I would suspect that more heart shot deer go unretreaved that those shot through the lungs. Most folks have no idea how far a deer can run after a heart shot.
A hunter came back to the hunting camp several of us muzzleloader hunters shared one season, and told us the deer he shot at "jumped the bullet" and after a search of around forty yards, he declared it a miss. Several of us in camp suspected it was not a miss, and went to the sight of the encounter, to try to track the deer. We found him down the hill about a hundred yards under a manzanita bush where he had slid after dropping dead on the run.
Hungry Horse
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First off it should be understood that "knockdown" power does not exist if one means a projectile actually does "knock" an animal down. Laws of physics tell us that if a firearm knocks a critter down then it would also knock the shooter - equal and opposite reaction - down. Building a shoulder fired weapon of that power would be counter productive; after each shot the hunter would have to pick himself up off the gravel. Animals sometimes seem to get knocked down but that is only a reaction to the shot. If "knockdown" were fact a hit anywhere would do the trick. I believe we all probably know this already.
IMHO a conical is a poor solution to a problem that doesn't exist. They rarely offer any advantage over a prb; and the situations where they might be preferable are uncommon. I like the .50 and have killed quite a few deer with several rifles in that caliber. My two longest deer kills, 100 yards or a little more, were accomplished with two different .50s. I like the .45 even more and two rifles in that caliber have taken more deer than all the .50s put together. Just for my purposes, the .45 is perfect for deer; the .50 is a good step up and provides (maybe) insurance on a hit and the .54 is the "can all", "do all". The idea of going to a bigger caliber ball rather than a conical in something smaller makes sense to me.
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First off it should be understood that "knockdown" power does not exist if one means a projectile actually does "knock" an animal down. Laws of physics tell us that if a firearm knocks a critter down then it would also knock the shooter - equal and opposite reaction - down. Building a shoulder fired weapon of that power would be counter productive; after each shot the hunter would have to pick himself up off the gravel. Animals sometimes seem to get knocked down but that is only a reaction to the shot. If "knockdown" were fact a hit anywhere would do the trick. I believe we all probably know this already.
IMHO a conical is a poor solution to a problem that doesn't exist. They rarely offer any advantage over a prb; and the situations where they might be preferable are uncommon. I like the .50 and have killed quite a few deer with several rifles in that caliber. My two longest deer kills, 100 yards or a little more, were accomplished with two different .50s. I like the .45 even more and two rifles in that caliber have taken more deer than all the .50s put together. Just for my purposes, the .45 is perfect for deer; the .50 is a good step up and provides (maybe) insurance on a hit and the .54 is the "can all", "do all". The idea of going to a bigger caliber ball rather than a conical in something smaller makes sense to me.
Well, I ain't very smart so bear with me. So, if you put a .50 cal ball between your shoulder and your buttplate and shot your gun the ball would go through your shoulder just like the one you fired from the barrel?
I have spun deer clear around with a .62, but I didn't spin around when I shot the gun...... ???
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First off it should be understood that "knockdown" power does not exist if one means a projectile actually does "knock" an animal down. Laws of physics tell us that if a firearm knocks a critter down then it would also knock the shooter - equal and opposite reaction - down. Building a shoulder fired weapon of that power would be counter productive; after each shot the hunter would have to pick himself up off the gravel. Animals sometimes seem to get knocked down but that is only a reaction to the shot. If "knockdown" were fact a hit anywhere would do the trick. I believe we all probably know this already.
IMHO a conical is a poor solution to a problem that doesn't exist. They rarely offer any advantage over a prb; and the situations where they might be preferable are uncommon. I like the .50 and have killed quite a few deer with several rifles in that caliber. My two longest deer kills, 100 yards or a little more, were accomplished with two different .50s. I like the .45 even more and two rifles in that caliber have taken more deer than all the .50s put together. Just for my purposes, the .45 is perfect for deer; the .50 is a good step up and provides (maybe) insurance on a hit and the .54 is the "can all", "do all". The idea of going to a bigger caliber ball rather than a conical in something smaller makes sense to me.
SHOT PLACEMENT!! A .32 will do the job on Bullwinkle if you put it in the right place!!
I know a fellow who killed a whitetail stone dead with a .17. Ya won't catch me doing that though ;D
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This is all interesting. But it still boils down to what the projectile hits while passing threw or into the animal. After nearly fifty years of hunting deer an checking the wound damage. Can pretty much tell why said animal dropped dead an why they ran as far as they did. None the less it boils down to shot placement. Could discuss the difference in p.r.b. compared to modern ammo. But not here. This is a traditional site dealing with round ball ammo. Imho
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Whilst I've killed a number of deer over the years, only 2 have fallen to my flintlock-a 54. Both were large bucks and fell quickly. One at 17 yards, quartering away, ball stopped under the hide after penetrating far shoulder. He ran 40 yards maybe. The other at ~100 yards (an unusually long shot in those woods), hit high and dropped in his tracks. Ball stopped under the skin. Same load, which isn't a "stout" one.
I've been impressed.
I knocked down a buck with a 50 a long time ago (a short-bbled production cap gun). He got up and got away after being knocked flat. Saw him years later with the injury-easy to identify with the non-typical rack and limp. Never did catch him in season again. That's the only deer I ever injured and left in the woods, with a gun.
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First off it should be understood that "knockdown" power does not exist if one means a projectile actually does "knock" an animal down. Laws of physics tell us that if a firearm knocks a critter down then it would also knock the shooter - equal and opposite reaction - down. Building a shoulder fired weapon of that power would be counter productive; after each shot the hunter would have to pick himself up off the gravel. Animals sometimes seem to get knocked down but that is only a reaction to the shot. If "knockdown" were fact a hit anywhere would do the trick. I believe we all probably know this already.
IMHO a conical is a poor solution to a problem that doesn't exist. They rarely offer any advantage over a prb; and the situations where they might be preferable are uncommon. I like the .50 and have killed quite a few deer with several rifles in that caliber. My two longest deer kills, 100 yards or a little more, were accomplished with two different .50s. I like the .45 even more and two rifles in that caliber have taken more deer than all the .50s put together. Just for my purposes, the .45 is perfect for deer; the .50 is a good step up and provides (maybe) insurance on a hit and the .54 is the "can all", "do all". The idea of going to a bigger caliber ball rather than a conical in something smaller makes sense to me.
Well, I ain't very smart so bear with me. So, if you put a .50 cal ball between your shoulder and your buttplate and shot your gun the ball would go through your shoulder just like the one you fired from the barrel?
No it wouldn't. The force generated by the charge going off propels the ball forward. The force generated by the charge going off also propels the gun rearward with the same amount of force. The forward force of the charge going off is concentrated on the small surface area of the ball. The ball being smaller, lighter and unobstructed retains most of that force and leaves the muzzle at great velocity. The gun itself moves backwards with the same amount of force. However, the gun moves rearward at a lower velocity because the force is distributed over a much, much wider and heavier area (the gun, butt stock and your shoulder).
The amount of "felt recoil" to your shoulder is a function of all those factors combined. Caliber/load being the same, what feels more comfortable on your shoulder when it goes off, a wide butt early Virginia or a Vincent with a narrow crescent butt? A round ball between the butt and shoulder might leave a welt. Place something sharp there though and yes, it might draw some blood. If you want an apples to apples comparison, in the exact center of an unbreached barrel, place a powder charge between two balls of the same weight and set it off. I wouldn't want to place either end of the barrel against my shoulder.
As for knockdown power, the ball starts slowing down the instant it leaves the muzzle. By the time it reaches the target, the force that propelled the ball down the barrel and gun into your shoulder is ancient history. You hope that the initial energy that force imparted on the ball is retained long enough and high enough to penetrate the target once it gets there. In this case, Newton's 3rd Law of Motion really applies to the firing of the gun, not to the terminal ballistics of the ball on the deer.
Here's a link if you're interested. Question #3 applies. I didn't make this stuff up!
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-4/Newton-s-Third-Law
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I can only add that the ball, being small, PENETRATES and does not knock the animal down. Any creature hit by a projectile will often react i.e. jerk, twitch, jump or run; that's what happens when a live target is hit. Notice how you can shoot one deer and it simply "drops" and shoot another with the same caliber, same powder charge and same distance and it DOESN'T react at all but just runs away giving the impression the shot was a miss? There are too many cases where humans have been hit by high power rifle fire, handgun fire and, yes, even big round ball (long time ago for that) and kept right on going. A cannon ball would knock a man/deer down but they're illegal for hunting. Believe me, a shot doesn't kill by "knocking" something down; it kills by penetrating to the vitals or beyond. It's physics, that's all.
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Well, I ain't very smart so bear with me. So, if you put a .50 cal ball between your shoulder and your buttplate and shot your gun the ball would go through your shoulder just like the one you fired from the barrel?
I have spun deer clear around with a .62, but I didn't spin around when I shot the gun...... ???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion), specifically the 3rd law is the important one here. It says that for the action of the ball + patch + powder ejecta going out the barrel, there is an equal reaction going the opposite way. But just as the business-end action is dispersed over *everything* going forward, the equal reaction is dispersed over *everything* going backwards. Which is (a) the gun and (b) you. So while the energy going forward is mostly (but not entirely) concentrated in the ball, simply because that's the heaviest bit, whereas the energy going backwards is dumped into the rifle (then dumped into you). You're familiar with how a heavier bullet has a lower muzzle velocity than a ball for the same charge? Well imagine how slow a bullet would fly if it weighted as much as the gun! That's essentially why the gun doesn't fly through your shoulder, it's so heavy that the "butt velocity" is too low, and the impact area is so much larger than a bullet. This is why light rifles feel like they kick more (they don't kick *more* but they kick *faster*), and why narrow butt plates hurt more.
You can use Newton's third law to calculate the free recoil of a rifle/shotgun/pistol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil)). Free recoil is the recoil of the gun if you're holding it loosely, where it's basically free to recoil without resistance. Usually you want to solve for the recoil speed, not the recoil energy or momentum, since the recoil speed is what causes the "pain". This is useful if you're trying to design a rifle for someone who is recoil sensitive (or a load for their existing rifle).
But the upshot is that yes, the energy dumped into that deer by the .62 ball is *less* than the energy dumped into you when you shot it - less, because some of the energy went into making the powder and patch fly downrange, and because the air slowed the ball down some before it hit. It's possible that the ball really did spin the deer around, if the deer were much lighter than yourself and the rifle was loaded pretty heavily - certainly a .62 is getting to the point where a heavy load will thump you pretty severely.. In my part of the country the deer are very small (frequently 70-90 lbs). But this sort of thing can also happen because the deer flinched or jumped crookedly because of a damaged leg or ribs, causing him to spin himself around.
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Mauser06: I have a .50,and .62 I have yet to take a deer with the .62 but it is my favorite it's a custom and it fits me a lot better thus less notable recoil even though I have shot it with up to 140 grin of fff
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I finally shot a good boar hog this am I'm sure EC121 will post pictures either here or on his blog. Used 100 grs. FFFG and patched .535 round ball. Hog was broadside 75 yds at the impact of the ball he flipped over feet leaving the ground. Hit was slightly high and went through lower spine. While probably not necessary put the settling shot into his brain. Have to admit he flopped at the time I pulled the trigger and misplaced a couple of shots. Hardly any adrenaline running through me. The hog weighed over 250 #. The bullet went all the way through broadside tough hide and all. Killed a lot of hogs and deer with a .54 always seemed to work fine if I did my part. Tim
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Just to reiterate, If a ML ball "knocks" an animal down - rather than causing an extreme reaction to the hit - NO shot deer would run; it couldn't because you "knocked" it down. But most DO run because you didn't "knock" them down. As mentioned previously, according to the "knock" down theory, if shot, all deer would be knocked to the ground every time they got hit; but they don't. In the movies a close range hit from a shotgun is portrayed having the "shootee" fly backwards. This doesn't happen in the real world at all. A projectile doesn't "push" anything; it goes "through" the critter and does all kinds of internal damage which will either cause said critter to give up and expire DRT or cause it to run until it realizes that it is dead.
This, of course, is merely academic exercise and has no bearing on our hunting. So go out and shoot those critters because they never studied physics.
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The only time I "knocked a deer down" is when I hit the spine with my .735 ball.
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I knocked one down with my Ford Edge. Tim's hog pictures are posted. www.bricestultzhisblog.blogspot.com (http://www.bricestultzhisblog.blogspot.com)
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Great pictures and fine hogs.
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I finally shot a good boar hog this am I'm sure EC121 will post pictures either here or on his blog. Used 100 grs. FFFG and patched .535 round ball. Hog was broadside 75 yds at the impact of the ball he flipped over feet leaving the ground. Hit was slightly high and went through lower spine. While probably not necessary put the settling shot into his brain. Have to admit he flopped at the time I pulled the trigger and misplaced a couple of shots. Hardly any adrenaline running through me. The hog weighed over 250 #. The bullet went all the way through broadside tough hide and all. Killed a lot of hogs and deer with a .54 always seemed to work fine if I did my part. Tim
So, now I'm confused....was it you or the hog that flipped over feet leaving the ground...... This is why I have a flip phone instead of a smart phone, I'm too stupid to figure complicated stuff out. :P
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Laws of physics tell us that if a firearm knocks a critter down then it would also knock the shooter - equal and opposite reaction - down
Yup. That's exactly what my gun does to me. Every time. Makes me wonder why I shoot the dang thing.
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Funny Mike fortunate for me I defied the laws of physics and didn't flip. The hog however may have just been showboating. It was his last opportunity.😊
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I am enjoying this! Love listening to other's experiences and opinions. All I can humbly add from my own ongoing lessons from hunting and life is:
Never say "never".
Never say "always".
There's two "nevers" I never should've said.
Weeell, I ain't perfect neither.
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I'd get a different gun.
Each caliber has its situations. When I started shooting muzzleloaders folks thought a .45 round ball was a good deer killer, and it worked for me. Once made a bad kidney shot on a whitetail and knocked it right down. Got to the deer before it could get up. I also misjudged distance over snow and wounded a deer with that .45 at over 120 yards, rib and single lung angling back. Big blood trail and deer went down after a hundred yards, needing a finishing shot. Switched to a .50 mostly and it was ok. Deer will still run when lung shot but if I can't find a deer that ran 30-60 yards I need to stop hunting. Little experience with the .54 but seems to go through deer with a bigger hole.
All of them seem better than a rifled slug, even a 12 ga.
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I have an early style Lancaster made from a Chambers kit. Beautiful flintlock rifle. But when I bought it, all Barbie had in stock were .58 caliber barrels. So that's what I went with. I have shot that rifle ALOT in the past couple of years. Never been thrilled with the caliber. Does it hit with authority? Absolutely. Does it use alot of powder? Absolutely. I'm not really bothered by recoil, but it will thump you. Trajectory is morter like compared to some of the smaller calibers. I recently pulled the barrel and sent it to Bobby Hoyt to be sleeved to .50 with a 1:60 twist. I know I will enjoy it more. Larger bore diameter will not compensate for poor round placement. I have always loved the .50 caliber. It is the big side of small and the small side of big. And it works very well for me.
Ez
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Thanx all! Good discussion...
I know different weapons kill via different means...
I don't expect the shock and trauma a modern bullet delivers...i don't expect the blood a 4 blade broadheads produces...
Ive killed a few deer ...I've killed a few with my 50cal flintlock...a few with roundballs...a few with Ball-ets...
I've been apart of several deer kills...modern guns...archery...flintlocks of various calibers and projectiles...
I tried to pull pics of flintlock kills and shot placement...but you can't see the holes in my pics..
I typically try to put my hole across the top of the heart..and I'm usually pretty successful in that...I've found that to leave the best trails...heart still seems to pump but when you put holes through all the parts connected to the top of the heart and the lungs that usually spills the most blood...
Even with the ball-ets that exit I don't get a ton of blood... sometimes none...or enough I have a slow track job...I've never had any go real far and haven't lost any...but I don't want to...
If I don't like the 58cal boohoo...i build another gun or buy another barrel...not a big deal..i can experience it and see if it does what I'm looking for or not...
I know many guys love the 45 and 50cal and have great results with it...many many critters have fallen to smaller calibers...
I'm not looking to go big to compensate for poor shooting in any way...I'm no expert flintlock shooter...but i wouldn't say I am bad..and my deer kills would agree I can do my part...I'm just looking for a little more performance... especially now that I'm going to start hunting primarily with the flintlock even in modern gun seasons...
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I used to hunt with a C .50. It was accurate and deadly with their Maxi-balls even though they did not feel tight enough going down the bore. My brother-in-law had a .54 and it worked fine too, but it dropped more at range. I never fired at a deer with that rifle that did not fall pretty quickly. With a fast twist barrel, you have some nice, heavy unmentionable type bullets to select from.
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Hmmmm..........been reading this thread awhile now.Be honest I scratch my head at these type threads.Folks having to track their deer,not much blood trail,deer was not knocked off its feet,super human deer?You put a good hit on the animal its going to die,plain and simple.A good hit and you do not recover it,its on you and you need to be a better tracker.Caliber, to each his own,what ever works for you,is comfortable to shoot and can shoot it accurately what ever it is and legal for what your after,common sense I think.Interesting read but all the science,theory and hunting story's in the world won't explain some of the things you see or don't see out there.Did shoot a buck one time with an old double barrel one time,didn't know both barrels would fire.Hit that buck,real up and close with both barrels of double "0" broad side.Saw all four of the bottoms of his hoofs,his shoe size,up in the air,I would say that's knocked off your feet.Why who cares,was pretty neat to see,just as dead as one you tracked fifty yards too,maybe a little more so ;)
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[/quote]
So, now I'm confused....was it you or the hog that flipped over feet leaving the ground...... This is why I have a flip phone instead of a smart phone, I'm too stupid to figure complicated stuff out. :P
[/quote]
Those of us who use flip phones, myself included, are officially called "dinosaurs".
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hypothetically what would be the best caliber to hunt dinosaurs,the reptiles that is ;D
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hypothetically what would be the best caliber to hunt dinosaurs,the reptiles that is Grin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-barreled_cannon :D
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Yup,that would do it ;)
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As I am finishing up a half stock rifle I am debating on which caliber I want it to be....
Right now it's a 1" Green Mountain LRH fast twist 50cal...I didn't spend an arm and a leg for the barrel...so having it bored out wouldn't bother me...
At first I wanted to shoot a heavy conical or possibly a sabot...I'm not a fan of 50cal roundball performance..ive shot several deer with them...killed them..but just never happy with the results..
I'm thinking of 58, 60 or 62cal. (not certain I can take it clear to 62cal or not..i THINK I can..).
I don't shoot a million balls a year so cost isn't an issue...i don't cast lead (yet..lol) so I'd be buying them...
Mostly only deer hunt and shots are usually 30yd average if I had to guess..some closer...farthest has been 75yds or so...
Mainly looking for solid performance.....also don't like the weight of a 1" 50cal barrel... sucker is plain ole HEAVY and having it bored out will reduce the weight a bit....
Any thoughts on caliber???
Sounds to me that you have lost confidence in the 50 caliber and won't get it back any time soon. Time to move up then.
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Wouldn't necessarily say I've lost confidence in the 50....I've killed somewhere around 15 deer with it...and I haven't lost one yet.
I think I do have to go bigger just for myself to see for my own eyes if the performance is what I am after or not....
I've never had one go over 100 yards...hard track record to argue with and compete against....i know that....if I don't see what I want from a bigger caliber no loss...easy to drop in another barrel into this stock....and I'm certain this won't be my last build...so I can adjust the barrel caliber to suit next time...
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First deer I ever killed with a round ball was from a .40 cal. Next had a .50 cal and used it . Built a.54 and have used it on a couple of deer. They all died some quicker than other. Some run far some close. Bought a .50 cal. the other day that belonged to friend of mine who died two years ago. Plan on using it this year in memory of him. All said and done if you want a bigger bore try it. You won't be satisfied till you see for yourself. Besides it's another reason to have another gun. Let us know how it works out for you. Dan.
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Going back to the original question on this thread....
If you have a percussion gun with a patent breech and you want to go to a thinner walled barrel and/or have it bored out have at it. Flint should be ok too.
But if you have a percussion drum set up ,.58 or more especially a .62 the barrel wall starts getting thin and has less threaded support for a drum .Those are the practical considerations on safety. Solid and sufficient support on a drum is very important.
That being said since the distance isn't long big calibers out of short barrels has worked for centuries making fast handling easier to carry guns that make big holes.
I built a .62 english style sporting gun with a patent breech 1'' across the flats at 29.5''.
Great hunting gun. I have since sold it but it was a sure killer .Tastes changed.
For hogs a stout revolver is a good backup.
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Thanx guys! Good post... everyone has their flavors..
Stuart, it is a flint...28" barrel..
For now I'm going to leave it a 50....going to try a couple Conicals in it....
I really think I will end up building a longrifle and giving dad this gun of he will start flintlock hunting...
Also still might put together a 58 cal barrel for it...order it long and use the cutoff to make a pistol barrel as well...that's my latest idea lol......
After I test fired it a bit I started to like the weight of it...it's a little heavy...it's a little muzzle heavy...but it makes for a steady hold....
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Make it a .62!
One shot in the air, and all the deer just lay down waiting to be picked up! ::)
Fred
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Looking back over my records, since I started building and shooting longrifles about ten years ago I've killed 16 whitetails (Maryland and Iowa) and 3 sika with them loaded with roundballs. Almost every whitetail the ball was found just under the skin on the far side. None went over 80 yards (1), most fell 30-50 yards after the shot, four fell dead on the spot. Not much blood trail on any of them. Only had a problem finding one, but that doe fell and died in a marsh hole and was covered with mud and water, took a bit to figure that one out. Used .40, .45, .54 and 16 ga balls and all worked.
The key is shot placement. With an arrow I want heart/lung, becuase that kills by blood loss. With a ball or bullet I only aim heart/lung if it's a long shot for the size of the target area, anything under 50 yards I aim high shoulder with a gun. That takes out one or typically both front legs, some lung and several major arteries. Even if they don't bleed they still plow a pretty good trail to follow pushing their front end. Some meat loss, but when you hunt an area with ultra thick cover and a 30+ deer limit for the season, you want dead and dead fast.