AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: nosrettap1958 on July 09, 2016, 04:44:59 PM
-
I used to shoot with a club and during our monthly paper shoots it became the same old shooters using custom built swamped barreled rifles fighting it out month after month.
However, at one particular shoot there was a big difference. Two shooters from Ohio brought their Douglas barreled, CVA half stockers, nice looking rifles for being an 'off the shelf' muzzleloader, but their barrels were glass bedded into their stocks. On Saturday we shot the 'trail' walk where they easily won but because an infringement of the 'rules' were disqualified, a charge they tried, unsuccessfully, to fight, However, on Sunday at the paper shoot, they were tearing it up and well ahead of the usual winners that all had custom rifles.
I couldn't believe that these relatively inexpensive rifles were not only keeping up with but well ahead of with these custom rifles. Granted, a CVA with a Douglas barrel is nothing to sneeze at but did a modern technique, glass bedding the barrel, turn these inexpensive rifles into competition rifles and keep up with some of the best custom rifles local area builders had to offer?
-
Crawdad,
Being able to use the equipment that you have will ,almost always, trump the cost factor.
Mark
-
I don't think that "glass bedding" had anything to do with their winning --- as stated it is being able to use your equipment to it best -- and I bet "dollars-to-doughnuts" they practiced a whole bunch with their rifles ;).
-
what you hang off of a good barrel will have very little to do with how a gun shoots, as long as it's assembled properly. glass bedding isn't a wonder treatment. If a barrel is properly bedded it shouldn't make any difference. most any properly assembled gun will shoot better than most people can see the rather primitive sights used on traditional muzzle loaders. The accuracy level required for most trail walks is not much. I would suspect that the 2 gentleman are very good shots with whatever they're shooting.
-
Back in the late 70's a friend took me to a shoot in northern Pa. We had to wade thru about 8" of snow to get to the club. All I had at the time was a CVA Kentucky rifle, percussion, 45 cal. that I put together from a kit. We shot 25,50, and 100yds., at the end of the day I won the 25,50, and 100yd. matches plus I got a award for overall shooting. The regular club members thought they were being hustled until they seen my CVA with Made In Japan stamped on the barrel. To tell the truth I was surprised myself!
-
One of the main reasons I love muzzleloading, and black powder shooting in general, is that those with more $ than others can't really buy or spend their way to the winner's circle. It's the person using the rifle that counts the most.
-
Back in the late 70's a friend took me to a shoot in northern Pa. We had to wade thru about 8" of snow to get to the club. All I had at the time was a CVA Kentucky rifle, percussion, 45 cal. that I put together from a kit. We shot 25,50, and 100yds., at the end of the day I won the 25,50, and 100yd. matches plus I got a award for overall shooting. The regular club members thought they were being hustled until they seen my CVA with Made In Japan stamped on the barrel. To tell the truth I was surprised myself!
BEWARE of the new man with only one gun.He probably knows how to use it well.
Bob Roller
-
does not matter how nice the rifle looks it does not have the ability to shoot well.
You have to have the shooter and the rifle to be able to consistently win.
Looks is just an added benefit.
Fleener
-
That the rifles in question had decent barrels AND that those lads had bed them in glass also shows they most likely worked up accurate loads for them. This is contrary to what most guys do. Most will pick a load and think that's good enough. Those load pickers usually do not enter the winner's circle.
That is my observation on this seemingly strange phenominum. It's not so strange after all.
-
Interestingly enough, back in the days when I started muzzleloading, I used a stock, out of the box, T/C Renegade. And I did my share of winning with it, too. Somewhere down the line, I improved the rifle with a Douglas Premium barrel and I did a little more winning with it.
All goes to prove that the barrel is important, the load development is important, practice is important, etc. Of all of those, I think probably practice is the most important factor.
John
-
As the saying goes: "You can't buy a game/match." Tennis-golf-shooting. It is the operator more than the equipment. That being said, I still like to shoot a nice rifle to look good losing. :D
-
It seems a lot of people, more or less, look down on factory rifles. I've owned, hunted and shot targets with quite a few "over the counter" rifles through the decades. One thing I learned is that spending lots of money doesn't buy lots of accuracy. The Italian and Spanish barrels are just as good as the expensive ones from American companies. Even having a custom barrel made at great expense would only "possibly" help the very top shooters. And these top shooters can often dominate with their "plain" rifles. I still own a couple of factory rifles and nothing I've had built for even more $$ can shoot any better.
-
I disagree completely. Just take a look at what constitutes building a 'Match' grade barrel. Nothing a factory can do could match it. Please read.
"Some makers, like John Krieger, for example, who produces both cut- and button-rifled barrels, have embraced cryogenic stress relieving, but he makes no accuracy claims for it. Others-mostly folks who are not barrel makers but who are in the cryo business, do claim accuracy benefits for freezing the bejesus out of steel. Krieger is convinced that cryo produces a steel that is easier on tools and machines better. Those who use it all agree, of course, and those who don’t say it doesn’t."
"Before cryoing, Krieger told me in a recent conversation, he would often scrap three or four barrels out of 10 because the deep-hole drilling operation would produce blanks having more than .005-inch run-out when turned on centers. It’s hard to believe that you can start drilling a hole smack in the middle of a 11⁄4-inch-diameter steel bar and after boring 28-30 inches, actually expect to come out within .005 inch of dead center at the other end!"
Read more: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/gunsmithing_rsgunsmith1/#ixzz4DwqXDGGy
And you are assuming those 2 guys were better marksmen, an obvious conclusion, but I don't think they were.
-
I didn't know Krieger made muzzleloading barrels! :o
I can have a custom match grade muzzleloader barrel made and still loose to a more skilled shooter. I think dropping the coin on a better quality barrel in most cases will help with consistency in accuracy, but its the person shooting that determines if the gun as a whole will win a match.
I've glass bedded muzzleloaders and modern guns. I believe it does help, without a doubt. But it doesn't pass inspection if shooting in a match were its not allowed. So these guys got kicked. I have no doubt that glass bedding helps with the consistency of their shots.
Not blackpowder, but I witnessed my little sister (long time ago) smoke another shooter at the range shooting a $80 .22 rifle she had. The guy had a nice expensive .22 setup. Im sure his gun was more accurate, but she could shoot hers better. You can stack the deck in your favor as much as you want, but if you cant breathe and squeeze right, your gonna loose.
-
I've always said it's the nut behind the butt. No amount of high dollar toys are going to make the shot for you..
Regards
Dave
-
I'm of the opinion that the guys knew their rifles well and their rifles fit them well regardless of the glass bedding. It's not beyond reason that a "production" rifle can in fact fit a person well and when said rifle & person work up a good load, it can all come together for them.
Personally I would not glass bed a muzzle loading rifle, but that's just me. My reasoning stands mostly on principle of the idea and respect for traditional muzzle loading with a self imposed cut off date of 1865. What dates others impose (if any) on themselves is strictly up to them.
-
I started shooting back in the 1970's at tide water muzzle loaders near Annapolis. Several guys, including Ron Griffie, would show up with the most outrageous side lock guns imaginable. Once, Ron showed up with a thumb hole stocked flintlock painted metal flake green. I learned early on, that "purty don't shoot" . A good barrel, and sights, even if stocked with a pine 2x4 will shoot winning scores. Too many shooters make the mistake of thinking an expensive custom gun will translate into winning scores. There is no substitute for knowing your gun. A good shooter can shoot good scores with the worst production gun. A bad shooter doesn't become a winner by spending 5 grand on a gun. I competed many years with a cobbled invest arms Hawken and an H & H barrel. The production lock and triggers, unfinished kit stock made little difference.
-
One of the main reasons I love muzzleloading, and black powder shooting in general, is that those with more $ than others can't really buy or spend their way to the winner's circle. It's the person using the rifle that counts the most.
I used to make a joke about a brass and pine muzzle loader because
some of the imported guns looked like pine with brightly polished brass
trim.A fellow in Kansas used a Bill Large barrel and one of my Ketland
locks,stocked with a 2x6 from a lumber yard and won the state championship with it.
It IS the shooter and this was not a megabuck rifle.
Bob Roller
-
I've found that most of the Muzzleloaders I've shot, can be made to be more accurate than I can hold. So part of being a good shooter is working out the best load for a particular gun.
I have a flintlock rifle that seems to shoot well with any reasonable combination of powder, patch and ball. I also have a chunk gun that is very touchy about what patch and powder is used, but will shoot a one hole 10 shot group if loaded right.
I once won a woods walk with an original 36 cal. Half stock percussion rifle I bought for $200. The rifling was half worn away, and I was using a very light load because the gun was 150 years old. I certainly didn't expect the gun to be that accurate, but apparently it was close enough.
-
I for one am glad the old "I don't care what it looks like guys" that cobbled up some of the ugliest tack drivers ever devised, either got tired of this little joke, or simply died out. Some of the guns these guys baling wired together were literally painful to look at. Now, I don't think every Longrifle has to be a work of art, but it should at least represent a period correct working gun. I shot, and lost, several time against rifles that had modern sights, modern stocks, and glass bedding, and I always felt that it added insult to injury. JMO.
Hungry Horse
-
I for one am glad the old "I don't care what it looks like guys" that cobbled up some of the ugliest tack drivers ever devised, either got tired of this little joke, or simply died out. Some of the guns these guys baling wired together were literally painful to look at. Now, I don't think every Longrifle has to be a work of art, but it should at least represent a period correct working gun. I shot, and lost, several time against rifles that had modern sights, modern stocks, and glass bedding, and I always felt that it added insult to injury. JMO.
Hungry Horse
I completely agree HH, it added insult to injury.
I'm not talking about matching up shooters with unequal ability or in other words matching up shooters that can only consistently hit the 9 or 10 ring against shooters that consistently hit the 10 or 10x ring. All of the shooters present could consistently hit the 10 or 10x ring. In my opinion their glass bedded stocks gave them an unfair advantage.
-
Shooting bull's eye's are easy. Anybody can do it! Just remember to squeeze the trigger when the sights cross the bull's eye. An yeah don't move the gun till the ball is out the barrel! First thing I was taught when I started shooting. How fancy the gun is. Don't mean squat. An fear the person with one gun. More than likely they know how to shoot it.
-
No, its not easy at all.
-
Personally, I wouldn't glass bed a muzzleloader barrel. Perhaps at the breach, but that's it .The barrel supports the forestock, not the other way around. With the lugs slotted in view of barrel /wood movement, I'm happy enough. You do need a decent barrel, but in my view and experience, a good lock is more important. Cap locks are more forgiving than flintlocks. Many at our club use target rifles made by one of the members. Out of those shooters, 3 or 4 win almost every time. It's not the guns .
-
No, its not easy at all.
I agree. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it.
Now this is where I like shooting at gongs. Take a - 6", 8", 10" gong, and so on and they all become one big bulls'eye, and you'd think a person could run the course of say (50 to 100 yards) with ease, (50 yards - 6",,, 60 yards - 6",,, 70 yards - 8",,, 80 yards - 8",,, 90 yards - 10",,, and 100 yards - 10",,, - but not so with fixed open iron sights. Now I'm not saying it can't be done but you'd better know your rifle well, and know your windage and elevation.
Here's the best run I ever did;
50y (6") - H H, 60y (6") - H H, 70y (8") - H H, 80y (8") - M H, 90y (10") - H H, 100y (10") - H H
-
I'm confused, when you glass bed a modern rifle you only bed the action and free float the barrel. The reason is to not interfere with the harmonics of the barrel from the high pressure loads. How could bedding a muzzleloader half stock have any affect what so ever on its performance? I'm having a hard time buying into that. You home boys just got out shot. Sorry. IMHO. Bob
-
For many years, I shot as many matches as I could attend. I never cared how the competition bedded their barrels. Back in those days I bedded the breech and tang of every rifle I made, not for accuracy, but because I had a couple rifles come back with the wood behind the tang chip out because of my loose inletting in that area and heavy use.
I would shoot every weekend if possible, and dry fired my set triggers at a target on the bedroom wall for 20 minutes every night before going to bed. I think knowing the rifle, working up the load combo, and practice (most important) made the difference in my performance.
The rifle I shot in the early days (11 years) had a $30 dollar barrel on it. It was still shooting good groups when I let it go, and the rifling in the barrel had been worn slick on one side by the wooden ram rods I had used over the years. I think the shooter is the key to winning.
I think the quality of the lock used really makes a difference if you are are shooting a flintlock, but again the shooter is the key to winning in this instance as well.
Roger Sells
-
Agreed... the shooter has a lot to do with it. I also tend to suspect that sights make a huge difference in consistent, repeatable shots, and hence accuracy. For example, I always shoot better with thin, crisp front sight blades, like those found on 1903 Springfield rifles. My eye can line up the blade on a target very precisely with a thin blade, and in a consistently centered sight-picture.
-
BINGO the sights work for you. You practice not only shooting but holding the gun steady off hand. If you can't hold it on target. Why would you expect to shoot better? Most good shooters I know do a lot of dry firing practice. It helps with your trigger control, breathing and a consistent hold which helps with muscle memory. Repetition does wonders. Along with the right load for your firearm. IMHO
-
Hear! Hear! Now we are talking!
-
For those of you that can't figure out why someone would glass bed a muzzleloader barrel, here is the reason. I live in Northern California, the temperature during the summer months is often over a hundred degrees, sometimes way over a hundred degrees. In the late fall, and winter, it can rain a consoderable amount, bringing the humidity way up, this, radical difference in the temperature, and going from bone dry to very humid, can cause stocks to swell,and move, a lot. Glass bedding puts a moisture proof barrier between the barrel and the wood. Now with better wood finishes, and sealers, it's not such a problem. But, not so many years ago it was a real problem.
Hungry Horse
-
BINGO the sights work for you. You practice not only shooting but holding the gun steady off hand. If you can't hold it on target. Why would you expect to shoot better? Most good shooters I know do a lot of dry firing practice. It helps with your trigger control, breathing and a consistent hold which helps with muscle memory. Repetition does wonders. Along with the right load for your firearm. IMHO
Thanks Captain Obvious. Yea, in theory it works out great, like everything under the sun does, however at the range its completely different.
-
One of the main reasons I love muzzleloading, and black powder shooting in general, is that those with more $ than others can't really buy or spend their way to the winner's circle. It's the person using the rifle that counts the most.
Agree completely. I've been involved in many different shooting sports over the years and while the very best, most expensive gun will not win in the hands of a poor marksman, to win and compete consistently you'll need really good equipment. Unless you own a machine shop this will get expensive.
My flintlocks are simple, functional, accurate, and I made them myself with a relatively small investment.
-
Ok must admit. I was funnin with yeah. They are hard to hit. So I just keep makin im bigger! But I agree with H.H.. There has to be a line drawn some where. Personally I want my gun to be as period correct as I can make it. An perform to. With out the modern sights an barrel bedding stuff. Just my two cents. That's why we call them traditional.
-
A good way to shoot better targets is the way I do it. After firing xx rounds, I tape over all the holes that don't make a group. Problem solved. ;D
-
LOL!!
-
Why wouldn't glass bedding help any rifle? Granted a muzzleloading barrel has thicker walls than a modern barrel and combined with the lower pressures associated with black powder there is less vibration of the barrel but anchoring the breech not the barrel should always help a rifle shoot better regardless if its a muzzleloader or a modern rifle.
-
Crawdad: your question is loaded. It implies that a good looking rifle is probably not a performer, whereas a stock factory rifle, while not being a 'looker', is. You couldn't be further from the truth.
-
Here are a couple things to keep in mind when choosing what should be a good shooting gun, plain or fancy. Breech well seated.If I see gaps even on high end stuff where the barrel has scooted forward during construction, usually during the process of installing the tang screw the gun will probably need bedded. I see this quite a bit on low and high end guns. Also the barrel lugs need notched for the pins to allow for wood expansion. Once your barrel is well seated and the lugs slotted you pretty much just have to find the correct load. A good fast lock with a good fast liner is also important. Don't matter how much frosting you put on, if it's built right it's going to shoot.
-
Good point Mike. Well said!!!
-
Crawdad: your question is loaded. It implies that a good looking rifle is probably not a performer, whereas a stock factory rifle, while not being a 'looker', is. You couldn't be further from the truth.
I should not have said "should ALWAYS help a rifle shoot better." I should have said it MAY help a rifle shoot better.
-
I'm pleased that the guys with the fixed up guns did so well.
But saddened and perhaps disappointed that they were disqualified .
I have been at clubs where the rules got'' interpreted ''on the spot consistantly favoring the home club members and their shooting set ups.
Maybe many of our regular readers have seen this as well in their travels .
Nothing is more destructive to our sport .It's narrow minded and insular.
Winning a club match just isn't that important especially if kids or new comers are involved .
This very thing repeated destroyed one of our best local clubs .They started to get a reputation for this behavior and from an outsiders viewpoint it looked more like politics and vanity and less about good sportsmanship and fair play.
I certainly don't know the specifics of course ,maybe they did have cause for a rules disqualification but I simply ask whose agenda was served .Just struck me the wrong way I guess.
-
I'm pleased that the guys with the fixed up guns did so well.
But saddened and perhaps disappointed that they were disqualified .
I have been at clubs where the rules got'' interpreted ''on the spot consistantly favoring the home club members and their shooting set ups.
Maybe many of our regular readers have seen this as well in their travels .
Nothing is more destructive to our sport .It's narrow minded and insular.
Winning a club match just isn't that important especially if kids or new comers are involved .
This very thing repeated destroyed one of our best local clubs .They started to get a reputation for this behavior and from an outsiders viewpoint it looked more like politics and vanity and less about good sportsmanship and fair play.
I certainly don't know the specifics of course ,maybe they did have cause for a rules disqualification but I simply ask whose agenda was served .Just struck me the wrong way I guess.
It was something about being down range. As I was not an officer or one of the range captains, I was not privy to facts surrounding the charges or the conversations and or arguments for or against. My perspective was, however, how can you be considered down range on a woods walk or trail walk shoot.
As I only shot the trails walk course a few times as I mostly participated in the paper shoots, these would qualify you for the state squad for the 'Kentucky' rifle shoot held annually in Kentucky, I was never overly concerned about the trail or woods walk shoot.
-
This whole thing kind of puts me in mind of the "Any Metallic Sight" Rule that is ever more present these days then ever. To many liberties are taken with what we perceive as "traditional Muzzle Loading Firearms" in as much as what's traditional and what is not, through the allowance of modern adjustable sights and apertures being allowed in the AMS matches. I guess what I'm getting at is where do you draw the line?
Let's say (just for sake of argument) that someone figured out how to trick out their barrel channel for better performance. Is this any different from the "AMS" Rule of 20th and 21st Century Adjustable Sights on 17th, 18th, 19th Century represented traditional muzzle loading firearms?
Awareness of club rules is a must, and must be followed... However, if something hidden away within one's stock that enhanced accuracy and considered "non traditional" then shouldn't non traditional sights that can be seen also be a factor for disqualification?
Just throwing this out here as there could be two sides to every story when it comes to accepted traditional muzzle loading rules.
-
I believe it was in a rifleman magazine article where they tested a synthetic stocked rifle and a wood stocked rifle for MOA. They soaked both rifles in water for a period of time and then re-sighted them in. The synthetic stocked rifles was off but still shot an acceptable MOA whereas the wood stocked rifle was way off so much so that the writer of the article was somewhat shocked by how far off it was.
-
Just my take on the Any Metallic Sight the main reason for it at my home club is that we have many shooters that are "long in the tooth" and a lot just can't see open sights anymore or say that they cannot see them. A any rate if it keeps shooters shooting I'm all for it. For my self 66 years old I can still see the open sights not as well as I used to but I can make them work for me and I have shot both ways and actually see little difference in offhand scores. Now settling down on a bench different story I can do much better with the peep sights. My 2 cents worth.
-
Regarding the use of aperture sights: I would hope that we are competing in shooting contests rather than tests of vision. You cannot hit what you cannot see. If an aperture sight helps you see the target when open iron sights do not, I'm ok with that. We have only one big rendezvous a year up here in the Great White North - the BC Rendezvous - and it is attended by abut 140 camps with old and young. There is at least one rifle event every day for ten days, and awards issued at a social gathering each evening. The winner's circle is not jammed with people who have had a 'leg up' using aperture sights. Almost invariably, the first three places are taken by folks with flintlock longrifles with open iron sights. These are usually trail walk type shooting matches, and often, a tie breaker card determines which of the first two who have aced the trail, is the winner.
-
I'm not advocating we do away with Aperture sights, I'd be lost without them. I'm just shedding some light on what a person does to their rifle to enhance accuracy does not stop in just stock modifications, it also carries over to such things as sight set up, trigger work, comb enhancement, and so forth.
So, if a person did do stock enhancements with the goal of better rifle performance, is that really grounds for dismissing what they achieved in a contest when others (just saying) enhanced their sight picture using non traditional sights. Seems to me it's all under one roof so to speak. :)
-
Well. I was hoping this topic wouldn't degenerate into class warfare between the 'haves' and 'have nots' but as usual, it has. I didn't know these guys and only saw them once and have no idea if they even competed on a regular basis, heck I can't even remember if their rifles were percussion or flint. All I remember is what they said about their barrels and how they glass bedded them into the stocks.
Instead of a good discussion about the relative merits of glass bedding a muzzleloading rifle barrel the topic degenerates into something similar to, "I'm the world's greatest shot IMHO and instead of buying that $3,000.00 dollar custom rifle I figured I would just wait for a Cabela's sale and buy that 'off the shelf' Traditions, and it even comes with a starter kit, built in India for $200 bucks and learn to shoot it then I'll win everything since I'm the world's greatest shot, IMHO. ::)
Give me a break, Please!!!! Hopefully our newer members aren't buying what you're selling as I know first hand that a substandard piece of equipment will never hold up to the constant pounding it will receive during competition. And competition is a lot of fun and should be an option for all new shooters in their future. But bottom line is, if you want to compete or you don't know if in your future you will want to compete, buy yourself a good solid piece of equipment and that means a custom built rifle.
What makes a good shot? A good gun and $10,000 dollars worth of ammunition. What's a good gun? Something that will not completely wear out shooting $10,000 dollars worth of ammunition.
-
My perspective was, however, how can you be considered down range on a woods walk or trail walk shoot.
"Downrange" at any range, or anywhere for that matter such as when hunting, is that direction which is considered dangerous to humans from gun fire from ' the line & direction of fire.
-
If they were down range, they needed to be sent home in a hurry. We post our safety rules at my local club and every month we have a quick refresher and if there are any beginners we take extra time with them. Gotta shoot safe.
-
Good point Joe. I believe that's the way Phil and Rich looked at it, they violated the safety rules. They're done.
-
Getting back to the subject. My point of view has been tainted by a gentleman that I shot against years ago. He built his own half stocked rifle. It had quality barrel, lock and triggers. The rest of the rifle was made from an old barn beam, and the recycled wrought iron salvaged from a horse drawn manure spreader. His wood working skills were marginal, and his blacksmithing skills were nearly nonexistent, and I assume he didn't own a file. The finish looked like it also was found in the barnyard, but it was a shooting machine. He cornered every pilgrim, at every event, and gave them the entire story of the build, and usually let them shoot his gun. Soon there was a whole group of new shooters shooting his wrecking yard rifles. They would all camped together, and the camp became known as the "junkyard jungle". This guy led a pretty large group astray for no good reason that I can think of, other than he wanted attention.
Hungry Horse
-
Cva mountain rifles are good shooters, glass bedded or not. If they had those rifles since new, they probably knew how to shoot them very well. Long swamped barrels are not optimal for offhand matches, as the evolution of offhand rifles will show. The club that disqualified them on the basis of glass bedding sounds like one of the wonderful organizations that is hastening the death of muzzleloader shooting.
I don't like the look of high sights on a rifle, but they are essential in any match over a few shots. If I complained about every sight on everybody's rifle that looks out of place, I would have no one to shoot with,
plus I changed my own!
-
I don't think the shooters were disqualified because of the glass bedding, they apparent were down range during the shoot.
In answer to the original question "Are we more worried about looks as opposed to performance?" I want my rifle to look good AND shoot accurately. Life is too short to shoot an ugly rifle.
-Ron
-
[Ditto !!!!quote]
BEWARE of the new man with only one gun.He probably knows how to use it well.
Bob Roller
[/quote]
-
I don't think the shooters were disqualified because of the glass bedding, they apparent were down range during the shoot.
In answer to the original question "Are we more worried about looks as opposed to performance?" I want my rifle to look good AND shoot accurately. Life is too short to shoot an ugly rifle.
-Ron
Towsend Whelen is usually noted as having 'coined' this phrase.
-
I agree completely! No ugly rifles; excepting normal aging which doesn't make any rifle ugly.
-
I don't think the shooters were disqualified because of the glass bedding, they apparent were down range during the shoot.
In answer to the original question "Are we more worried about looks as opposed to performance?" I want my rifle to look good AND shoot accurately. Life is too short to shoot an ugly rifle.
-Ron
Towsend Whelen is usually noted as having 'coined' this phrase.
Thanks Daryl. I had heard that saying before, but didn't know who to attribute it too.
-Ron
-
Every builder and every shooter should have the best they can afford as long as it is safe. I have shot 45 years and have saw some National contenders shoot some pretty ugly stuff. They would wipe your arse and send you home in a heart beat. One a school teacher from S. ILL. was in the top contenders at Friendship. His workmanship was sub standard but his shooting was super.
-
You can have the best made gun in the world. Pretty or ugly. But it's still up to the person holding it. But I am a firm believer in a traditional shoot is just that. No glass bedding etc. But that's just me. Mike
-
I have to agree. I have seen many shooters with fancy firearms, but it is the person behind the trigger that counts.
I recall shooting against my friend Dave one day, the prize being breakfast. He was shooting a target rifle, I was shooting a squirrel rifle. I complained that it wasn't a "fair fight". He reached over, swapped rifles, and cleaned my clock. It's the man behind the trigger!
God Bless, Marc
-
And they're especially good shooters after they have been glass bedded. Searching through the internet trying to find some experiments on glass bedded rifles whether muzzleloading or breechloading. Can't seem to find anything except wood stocked rifles compared to synthetic stocked rifles or the experiment and/or comparison the shooter was performing was flawed to some degree therefore not providing the exact information I was looking for.
"Glass bedding serves many purposes; in wood stocks it acts as a sealer to exposed wood, but the primary function in both wood and synthetic stocks is to give the action full contact with the stock, preventing it from moving inside the stock — a certain accuracy wrecker."
-
And they're especially good shooters after they have been glass bedded. Searching through the internet trying to find some experiments on glass bedded rifles whether muzzleloading or breechloading. Can't seem to find anything except wood stocked rifles compared to synthetic stocked rifles or the experiment and/or comparison the shooter was performing was flawed to some degree therefore not providing the exact information I was looking for.
"Glass bedding serves many purposes; in wood stocks it acts as a sealer to exposed wood, but the primary function in both wood and synthetic stocks is to give the action full contact with the stock, preventing it from moving inside the stock — a certain accuracy wrecker."
In my own experience Glass bedding works well to make a poorly built gun shoot well. It doesn't make a well built gun shoot better. Early on in my career I bedded every thing, probably the first 15 or so, then I quit. My guns were/are still as accurate as any glass bedded gun. It really is a non issue with me. Bed if you want to or don't, who cares.....
-
Timothy Murphy didn't. But if you think it helps. Do it. It's your gun.
-
I think that Mike got it right. I recently bedded the barrel on a high end kit gun that I bought as partially completed. It initially shot all over the place from a barrel channel that creaked and cracked when you squeezed the barrel in the channel. A little accraglas later and it settled right in and shot very nicely and consistently. I also bedded a gun that went to pot accuracy wise after spending it's life in Oklahoma and moving to Arizona. It worked in that instance also. Other than bedding the breech to prevent splitting the wood, I look at glass bedding as just another trick to fix a poor shooting gun. As an aside, I wonder if the bench, buffalo, and slug gun shooters bed their barrels? I would think that you could seal the barrel channel pretty effectively with stock finish without the cost and trouble of the accraglas.
Roger B.
-
Pretty much a mote point if the bedding job is done correctly. If its done right it should be invisible after the gun is assembled. As long as you didn't go around blabbing your fool head off about it none would be the wiser. ;)
-
Pretty much a mote point if the bedding job is done correctly. If its done right it should be invisible after the gun is assembled. As long as you didn't go around blabbing your fool head off about it none would be the wiser. ;)
Showing my age here ... At one time, the visible seam of Accra-Glass, Micro Bed or other 'accuracy enhancing material' along the barrel channel was the mark of a savvy shooter. ;)
Yes, smokepoles included. :o
Cheers,
Smoketown
-
Nope…not me.
I could care less about looks or performance.
My gun looks as if it's been thru the Rev war.
Scratches & nicks all over it.
I go to shoot. If I should win ( which I haven't yet ) that 's wonderful.
If I don't, my poor shooting is much better than my best day at work.
At least I had the opportunity to sling a little lead………see ya yardhunter
-
There is another reason for glass bedding a muzzle loader. I have a Renegade stock, it has a 1" barrel channel, but I put a 15/16 Green Mt. barrel, that I came across, in the stock. Also, as far as accuracy is concerned, it is hard to beat a Douglas barrel. I have a custom 36 cal. rifle, that has a Douglas barrel. It out shoots, every other gun, that I have. Who knows, maybe those guys did what I did and put a 15/16 barrel in a 1' stock, and had to bed the stock to make it fit.
Then they might have thought the glass bedding would improve accuracy, when even, just the barrel alone, would have been good enough. Worked on the brains of the competition, and that might have given them the edge, that they needed.
-
Every builder and every shooter should have the best they can afford as long as it is safe. I have shot 45 years and have saw some National contenders shoot some pretty ugly stuff. They would wipe your arse and send you home in a heart beat. One a school teacher from S. ILL. was in the top contenders at Friendship. His workmanship was sub standard but his shooting was super.
Little Joe,
Would the shooter from So Ill happen to be J L Hargis? Back 35 + - years ago I competed regularly in So Ill and So Indiana matches, J L would show up with a floppy leather hat and a gun that the stock split from the breach to the muzzle and held together by Red Grey Yellow Black and any color tape he could find he also taped a few chunks of lead to the stock " We called them "J L shooting stabilizers", He brought an old small rusty tool box complete with a claw hammer with one of the claws broken off to start the balls a rusty can of powder and a few cluttered essentials and preceded to clean everybody's clock and is still winning his share of the matches at Friendship today !! He wore out something like 4 H&H barrels and 3 or so " Haddaway locks" ? However the triggers broke crisp and the lock was tuned to perfection!! The gun looked like a piece of junk and If you would see it at a flea market at first glance you would not have given $25.00 for it!!Talk about playing mind games with other shooters he was the KING!!
-
Every builder and every shooter should have the best they can afford as long as it is safe. I have shot 45 years and have saw some National contenders shoot some pretty ugly stuff. They would wipe your arse and send you home in a heart beat. One a school teacher from S. ILL. was in the top contenders at Friendship. His workmanship was sub standard but his shooting was super.
Little Joe,
Would the shooter from So Ill happen to be J L Hargis? Back 35 + - years ago I competed regularly in So Ill and So Indiana matches, J L would show up with a floppy leather hat and a gun that the stock split from the breach to the muzzle and held together by Red Grey Yellow Black and any color tape he could find he also taped a few chunks of lead to the stock " We called them "J L shooting stabilizers", He brought an old small rusty tool box complete with a claw hammer with one of the claws broken off to start the balls a rusty can of powder and a few cluttered essentials and preceded to clean everybody's clock and is still winning his share of the matches at Friendship today !! He wore out something like 4 H&H barrels and 3 or so " Haddaway locks" ? However the triggers broke crisp and the lock was tuned to perfection!! The gun looked like a piece of junk and If you would see it at a flea market at first glance you would not have given $25.00 for it!!Talk about playing mind games with other shooters he was the KING!!
Yes that is the gentleman.
-
Little Joe,did you go up and comment on his fine group after his 4th shot?
-
Dave R did you ever shoot the Levi Garrett at Patoka Valley? That is where I met J.L.
-
Saw JL at a match in My View Arkansas 25 or so years ago. His infamous ugly rifle looked like he'd it for a fire poker. I was still shooting per-suction then and managed to win against JL, Carl Hagler, Tom Gillman, Jim Luke, Dewey Conrad, Jeff Dobson, Harry Goldman and others. Heck of a match. A couple of us were reminiscing a few months ago when JL's gun was mentioned. Still remember that hammer w one claw broke off.
As Bob Hope said "Thanks for the memories"
TC
-
Saw JL at a match in My View Arkansas 25 or so years ago. His infamous ugly rifle looked like he'd it for a fire poker. I was still shooting per-suction then and managed to win against JL, Carl Hagler, Tom Gillman, Jim Luke, Dewey Conrad, Jeff Dobson, Harry Goldman and others. Heck of a match. A couple of us were reminiscing a few months ago when JL's gun was mentioned. Still remember that hammer w one claw broke off.
As Bob Hope said "Thanks for the memories"
TC
If you bested JL on one of his good days my compliments to you sir.
-
I shot against him many times. NEVER beat him. Of course I was shooting much cooler guns than he was.....I figured it's not how good you shoot it's how good you look while you're doing it. ;D Or at least that's what I had convinced myself after being beat down at every match. ;)
-
That's what I like about Taylor's Rifles, Mike - they look good and they win more times than not.
-
I no longer look or perform good, and am not worried about either one bit.
Robby
-
Every builder and every shooter should have the best they can afford as long as it is safe. I have shot 45 years and have saw some National contenders shoot some pretty ugly stuff. They would wipe your arse and send you home in a heart beat. One a school teacher from S. ILL. was in the top contenders at Friendship. His workmanship was sub standard but his shooting was super.
Little Joe,
Would the shooter from So Ill happen to be J L Hargis? Back 35 + - years ago I competed regularly in So Ill and So Indiana matches, J L would show up with a floppy leather hat and a gun that the stock split from the breach to the muzzle and held together by Red Grey Yellow Black and any color tape he could find he also taped a few chunks of lead to the stock " We called them "J L shooting stabilizers", He brought an old small rusty tool box complete with a claw hammer with one of the claws broken off to start the balls a rusty can of powder and a few cluttered essentials and preceded to clean everybody's clock and is still winning his share of the matches at Friendship today !! He wore out something like 4 H&H barrels and 3 or so " Haddaway locks" ? However the triggers broke crisp and the lock was tuned to perfection!! The gun looked like a piece of junk and If you would see it at a flea market at first glance you would not have given $25.00 for it!!Talk about playing mind games with other shooters he was the KING!!
In my opinion that H&H barrel puts it squarely in the custom class regardless of looks. I think a lot of 'custom' rifles from builders today are ugly but that still doesn't disqualify them as a custom. Yes it the shooter but the shooter with a goof piece of equipment. Still haven't seen anyone win a match shooting a Spanish Jukar or a Euroarms offered rifle, have you?
-
I was at a woodswalk once and the only shooter to break the two clay pigeons at the axe head was a woman shooting an import.
-
I knew there had to be somebody. ::)
-
I knew there had to be somebody. ::)
Had to be a woman too....I hate shooting against women and kids.... ::)
-
I never have felt comfortable around a woman with a gun. I figure she might be kin to my ex wife an I dont heal up as fast as I used too
-
Percentage wise, women are my far the best benchrest shooters that I ever competed against. For some reason they excel in that type of shooting.
Dennis
-
Percentage wise, women are my far the best benchrest shooters that I ever competed against. For some reason they excel in that type of shooting.
Dennis
And doesn't that just infuriate you!!!!